00:00:00|00:00:03| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is April 15th, 2022. I am
interviewing for the first time, Mr. Madan Goyal. This interview is taking place
in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the
support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the
project entitled "Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of
Asian Dallas." Hello, Mr. Goyal, thank you for sitting for this interview. Let's
just start out and talk about where and when were you born?
|00:00:39| Goyal Well, Madan Goyal. I was born in North India, in state of
Punjab and in a small town there.
|00:00:55| Brody What brought you to Texas?
|00:00:57| Goyal Well, after studies in India, I came to U.S. as a student and
00:01:00after finishing my studies, I got jobs in Pennsylvania and in Rochester, New
York. And there, I was working for Xerox Corporation. Xerox moved a whole
division to Dallas and I was one of the persons in that division. And that's
what brought me to Dallas.
|00:01:37| Brody Where did you go to school?
|00:01:40| Goyal In India? I went to Thapar College, which is an engineering
college in Patiala in Punjab state. And from there I came to Utah State
University in upstate Utah, and after finishing there, I went to the- my first
job was in Pennsylvania.
00:02:00
|00:02:03| Brody So Utah was probably quite a difference from India.
|00:02:07| Goyal Very much so. Well, anything was different from India, but
especially Utah, because as we all know, Utah is predominantly Mormon community,
and so most of my friends and classmates and roommates in the dorm were all LDS
faith. So which is very different than the mainstream Christianity, but so in
that sense, you're right that it was very different.
|00:02:46| Brody What was Dallas like when you got here?
|00:02:50| Goyal Dallas was nice. We liked it.
|00:02:55| Brody What year was that?
|00:02:57| Goyal 72. We came here in 1972, and we liked it. I think maybe
00:03:00seventy one. Oh yeah, we came here in 1971 and we liked it. It was more like
India and Punjab, weather-wise, so no snows. Even though summers were a little
hot, but it wasn't that bad since we could always get inside and almost
everything, including the cars, were all air conditioned. So we didn't have any
problems with the heat, but we didn't miss the snows of upstate New York.
|00:03:45| Brody Were there a lot of Indians here in 1971 when you arrived?
|00:03:50| Goyal Well, I wouldn't say a lot, probably less than 100. We pretty
much met everybody. There were five or six families came with Xerox. So we
00:04:00already knew them. Then we made friends with the other families who were already
here. But I would estimate it was total less than 100 families, from South Asia,
including a couple families from Pakistan and the rest from India.
|00:04:30| Brody So 1971, well before the internet and everything. How did you
find other Indian families back then?
|00:04:38| Goyal Well, typically we started from the university. In the SMU or
Southern Methodist University. Of course, they had some students and they had
some faculty members. That's how we got to find out who else was in town and
whether they had any programs or. And then that's when the India Association,
00:05:00which is a nonprofit cultural, historical organization that got established in
those early 70s.
|00:05:18| Brody Were you active in the India Association?
|00:05:21| Goyal Yes. At that time, I was, but later on and of course, as the
population grew a lot more leadership came in.
|00:05:32| Brody What kind of things did the- not just the India Association-
but what sorts of things did, did the Indian community do to socialize and get
together during those days in the early 70s?
|00:05:46| Goyal The India Association did the movies. That was one of the
things. They would bring the movies mostly. Many times we showed the movie-
Indian movies at the Southwestern Medical School and one of their auditoriums
00:06:00because there were some doctors also who were Indian doctors who were and they
could arrange to use of the auditorium. And then it used to be in the big reels,
not digital. So the reels will come in in the mail and then somebody will take
it. And we had a projector and that's how we played and watched movies. So it
was pretty popular because that essentially was really the only Indian outlet to
and with the small community.
|00:06:49| Brody Right? Was it usually a full house?
|00:06:54| Goyal Well, I think most of the time pretty much everybody in town
showed up.
00:07:00
|00:07:01| Brody Yeah. Were they current movies that were popular in India or?
|00:07:05| Goyal Yes. Indian nation movies which are popular there. These days,
you know the Indian movies are released on the same day here as in India. But in
those days, the reels, they would be still popular movies, but not the latest ones.
|00:07:30| Brody Right. Makes sense. Tell me about your experience...I mean, if
it was a small Indian community, obviously you had a lot of contact with people
who were already here, other, other communities, native Texans, et cetera. Tell
me about your experience, sort of as you got to Dallas fitting in to your
neighborhood, workplace, et cetera.
|00:07:53| Goyal Well, most of the time you spend is, outside of the office, at
home is with the neighbors. So we, of course, when we got our house, built a
00:08:00house, or moved into the house, we met the neighbors. So that was...And since we
had the school age kids going to the schools and meeting through the PTA, the
other parents, which essentially were from the neighborhood since it was
elementary school age kids. So we met the neighbors and other parents that way
in the neighborhood. So it was good meeting them and realizing, well, how Texas
is different even than New York, where we moved with Xerox.
|00:08:49| Brody What were some of the differences that you noticed or that you
learned about?
|00:08:52| Goyal Well, I think some of the difference was people were a little
more open, here, than I thought in New York. You know, more friendly in a sense
00:09:00and more inquisitive because in New York state and in upstate New York, there
were a lot of Indians and other ethnic communities. Whereas in Dallas, it was
not so much so. Very few, again, very few Indians, or for that matter other
cultural families.
|00:09:42| Brody What were the types of things that your new friends and
neighbors were curious about?
|00:09:48| Goyal Oh, everything from dress you wear, to, you know what you eat.
So, they were curious and interested in just...Because it's so different than
00:10:00the Texas culture.
|00:10:11| Brody Did you try to maintain for your family, for your kids, some of
the traditions?
|00:10:18| Goyal As much as we could? Yes, because I think first generation
Americans, they typically want to keep as much as they can of their own culture
and try to pass it on to the next generation.
|00:10:38| Brody Sure. Did you encounter any racism or any difficulties like that?
|00:10:43| Goyal I wouldn't say I encountered any racism, you know, with the
neighbors or work or anywhere else. And I think it was more curious, our
interpretation of some things, but not outright racism.
00:11:00
|00:11:09| Brody So you were working at Xerox, but I know that you also started
a restaurant. Can you tell me about the path that led you to starting the restaurant?
|00:11:19| Goyal Well, when we moved here to Dallas, there was no Indian
restaurant. The most ethnic restaurants were either Mexican or Chinese, and
hardly any other ethnic food was available in the restaurants. So we thought,
Well, that, that's who would be...Family-wise or otherwise, I'm kind of an
entrepreneur. A streak or DNA. And so I thought, "Well that should be good."
00:12:00Dallas is a big city and it's a relatively...is cosmopolitan and getting to be
cosmopolitan. They, so they should have enough market. We didn't do any market
study, but well, just gut feeling that should be enough market of people who'll
want to try. After all, they like...The Mexican food is so popular, so they
might try the Indian food. So that was kind of reasoning and thinking behind it.
And then it wasn't really that easy to start an Indian restaurant at that time.
|00:12:50| Brody Why is that?
|00:12:52| Goyal Well, first there were no Indian cooks or chefs available
anywhere. I myself am not a chef, or a cook. And my wife, and she had no desire
00:13:00to be working in the restaurant. And so I had to bring the cooks from
India...who came to Dallas. And in those days, since of scarcity of the labor
force, meaning availability of Indian cooks, we could get them the residency
permit, the cooks who came from India. So I started, I got a restaurant which
used to be a barbecue place called Hickory House Barbecue on Mockingbird, and
that seemed like a right location to me since it was close to SMU, Southern
00:14:00Methodist University. And I felt that, well, that would be a good location since
we could get the students if we needed the staff part time or full time. Plus
the SMU faculty and others, they probably traveled and they probably would be
interested. And the Park Cities nearby there. So, the location was on
Mockingbird near Central Expressway.
|00:14:46| Brody Okay. Did you live close to there as well?
|00:14:48| Goyal No. I lived in North Dallas near Midway and Forest.
|00:14:57| Brody So the no, having no cooks, that was the first challenge. What
00:15:00were some other challenges that you faced in starting the restaurant?
|00:15:06| Goyal Well, the others was getting the tandoors. Tandoor is an Indian
clay oven which is very typical of Indian food cooking. And so we had to get
those by air from the Delhi on Lufthansa. Lufthansa delivered it. They didn't
break on, in the way. But then we installed it. So I started, got this barbecue
place while we were working on opening the Indian restaurant. So, the barbecue
place ran till we got the cooks, we got tandoors, and we shut down the barbecue
place and converted it to India House.
00:16:00
|00:16:03| Brody Wow. So you started, you came to Texas from India and in your
path to starting an Indian restaurant, also started your restaurant career as a
barbecue guy?
|00:16:15| Goyal Yes.
|00:16:16| Brody That's interesting.
|00:16:18| Goyal That barbecue place, Hickory House Barbecue. And the cook that
was running the barbecue place, we kept him. He learned the Indian cooking from
the other two Indian cooks that we brought home in India. So he learned the
cooks, and then we had all three of them working there.
|00:16:45| Brody That's really...That's really interesting. So in both cases,
the finding, the cooks and buying the tandoor from India while you were here,
those seem like logistically difficult challenges, what were the steps? How did
00:17:00you go about?
|00:17:03| Goyal Well, yes, it was. Then I just contacted the cooks. I called
the home town. My parents were still there and others. Told them, and they said,
"Oh yeah, we got very good cooks in town." And so we got one of them was from my
hometown. The other one was from Delhi and that we knew from talking to some
other restaurateurs in New York City. Because New York City had several Indian
restaurants talking to them. So we got the same way, talking to them, they said,
"Well, if you really want to do the tandoors, you have to come." They put us in
touch with some tandoor people in India. I got tandoors from them and then, you
00:18:00know, Lufthansa Air brought it. They did the packing and all that.
|00:18:12| Brody And then once it got here, the installation, I'm sure that
there was nobody in town who had ever installed a tandoor before. How did that
go or how did you arrange that?
|00:18:22| Goyal Well, I had the both cooks who were here by that time also.
They come to Dallas. So in remodeling, we arranged so the cooks decided where
and how, and I told them we wanted a window so people could watch the tandoors
and your cooking in tandoors and kabobs and kitchen, chicken and all that. So we
found the place where we wanted to and then put the glass windows on two sides
00:19:00of that area. And then once they installed the tandoors then around it put in
some insulation and break and making the top. So essentially, me and the
construction people did it. The cooks guided them that how they wanted.
|00:19:28| Brody Was that window a big hit among customers?
|00:19:33| Goyal I think so. A lot of people...Since, you know, that was so
different, so unique. So a lot of people will go up to the window and watch the
cooks, preparing the naans and other tandoor breads, because it's so unique. And
the cook takes the dough and slaps it on the side of the tandoor and it cooks
00:20:00and then it picks it up with the fork type of thing. So it was interesting. A
lot of people found it very intriguing.
|00:20:13| Brody Yeah, there's an article in the Dallas Morning News about the
tandoors at your restaurant and exactly that how the naan were prepared and so
on. So I think it sounds like it was...It got a lot of attention. So was your
family or yourself ever involved in any type of food related business before?
|00:20:33| Goyal No. My parents and uncles, aunts, they all been in business,
but not the restaurant business as such in India.
|00:20:49| Brody Did you have a business partner or anything like that?
|00:20:51| Goyal No. Initially I just did my own because it was so different and
so new. I didn't even try to get a partner...If I'm the one who wants to do it,
00:21:00I should take the responsibility.
|00:21:13| Brody So in starting the business and or any business, there is a lot
of nuts and bolts things that you have to do. So of course, sourcing things like
a tandoor, you went through people and contacts you had in India. How about
on this end, were there...How did you get the ingredients? How did you get those
types of things?
|00:21:33| Goyal Well, that's another... We did not have any source of the
spices or the other things that the typical Indian restaurant requires, which is
not common for an American kitchen. So I had to get almost all those spices from
New York. We'll order them. New York had several stores at that time, even in
00:22:00the 70s, who sold Indian groceries and spices and other Indian items. So we had
to get almost all those from there. And later on, a few years later, we could
get some from Houston. Some stores opened in Houston. So but initially
everything was coming to.
|00:22:38| Brody Well, that sounds complicated to gauge how much to buy and, you
know, refilling when you run out.
|00:22:45| Goyal But thankfully, most of the Indian items, they had a the long
life cycle. Like the spices or things like that. So you don't need to worry,
too, because the vegetables and the meats and all those we got locally. But the
00:23:00items we were getting from New York, they do not, you know, go bad. They were
not the kind which will go, have a short life.
|00:23:20| Brody That's, that's lucky. What about permits and things like that?
|00:23:24| Goyal Well, it was like any other typical in restaurants, so we had
to get the restaurant permit and then the health department to check. So just
like every other restaurant, so in that sense, it was no different than running
a barbecue place or Mexican restaurant or a Chinese restaurant.
|00:23:52| Brody And the space itself, of course, it was the Hickory House
Barbecue. Did you own that? Rent that?
|00:24:00| Goyal No, we rented the space. It had two dining rooms and one bar
00:24:00area and the kitchen. So the kind of four sections?
|00:24:16| Brody Did you serve alcohol?
|00:24:18| Goyal Yes. We did.
|00:24:19| Brody From the beginning.
|00:24:19| Goyal From the beginning, yes.
|00:24:21| Brody Well, at that time, what was the process for that in terms of
permits and regulations?
|00:24:29| Goyal Well, the permit, it was just again the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission. You have to submit the application, apply for it and
they'll approve it. There's no restrictions on this. You...I mean, I don't know
what they check, whether they check your criminal record or whatnot. But you
know, we made the application and that was it.
|00:24:56| Brody For a time in Dallas, there was, in terms of serving alcohol, a
requirement to be a member. Have you know, for patrons to purchase a membership?
00:25:00Was that in effect at that time?
|00:25:08| Goyal Well, it was in effect that time. It is still in effect, but
it's in what is called the "dry areas" where the liquor sales are not permitted.
So downtown Dallas area or the Mockingbird Lane area was always where you could
serve the drinks. Even Hickory House used to serve the drinks and the
restaurants in the neighborhood, they all sold liquor.
|00:25:40| Brody So that didn't affect you at all because of your location. So
you mentioned that in deciding on that location, you really were thinking that
SMU faculty and staff and students themselves might be both patrons and, and
maybe employees of the restaurant. Did that, did that pan out? Was that a good plan?
00:26:00
|00:26:04| Goyal I think so in many ways. Well, I know the students, many of
them work at the India House. Full time or part time, and I'm sure a lot of
faculty came. You know, I used to be there at the restaurant pretty much all the
time. Evenings. And then so I saw a lot of that same effect.
|00:26:38| Brody Were you still working at Xerox as well?
|00:26:40| Goyal And the first year I was, then I left Xerox and started this
full time. Yeah. So while I was working at Xerox, I'll come in the evenings. At
dinner time. I won't go there at lunchtime. The restaurant was open both lunch
00:27:00and dinner.
|00:27:05| Brody So in terms of your customers, in addition to SMU, the SMU
community, who were your customers and how did they find you?
|00:27:12| Goyal Well, in those days, finding was...Essentially before the
internet era, was either in the Yellow Pages or other more restaurant type of
magazines or fliers and all. And that's what I did also. I put in some ads in
Yellow Pages of course, and then in various dining publications.
|00:27:51| Brody So who were your primary customers, were they primarily
Indians or?
|00:27:56| Goyal No. Well, the Indian population was so small, even if they each
00:28:00one of them came in once a month, it probably wouldn't be enough. But the
population came from almost, I think, every walk of life who were curious, who
wanted or who heard about Indian food and wanted to try and saw that, "Hey, it's
now available locally. Let's go try it." Or those who have traveled and may have
seen it in London or some other place. Indian cuisine. So it was, you know, all
various kinds of people that were.
|00:28:47| Brody What were your biggest sellers?
|00:28:49| Goyal I think, if I can remember correctly, probably, that the
tandoori dishes, tandoori chicken or shish kebab. And vegetarians, even though
00:29:00there were very small percentage in those days, now vegetarianism is a lot more
popular. But in those days, the vegetarians found it all. This was a nice place
to go. They could get a good meal and be vegetarian.
|00:29:29| Brody When you created your menu, what were some of your goals in, in
sort of deciding which dishes would make it to the menu and which would not?
|00:29:41| Goyal Well, it was more of a traditional menu. So there was nothing
"breaking news" type of dishes that we had. It was not like a "chef driven." It
00:30:00was more like the "cook driven" kind of menu. And so we had all the standard
dishes, which you expect at a typical Indian restaurant, the tandooris and
chicken were. And the vegetables and then all the breads, rice and condiments. So.
|00:30:33| Brody So. Since there hadn't been an Indian restaurant in Dallas
before and you all were the first, in some ways, you were at the
introduction to Indian food for a lot of people. What, what was that experience
like and how, you know, how did people react and how did you interact with
people when they were unfamiliar with things that were on the menu?
|00:30:59| Goyal Well, it was a lot of education for, to the customer. Many
00:31:00customers, and the staff spent a lot of time explaining dishes and what it
means. What are the condiments or chutneys and or how the breads made. And then
of course, they could see it if they wanted to. And because like you said, yes,
it was a new experience for many customers. And so they kind of, I think they
pretty well accepted and liked and saw the uniqueness in not only in the
presentation, but also in the food and in the taste and all that.
|00:31:52| Brody Yeah. I've been reviewing restaurant reviews from the time
period, and there's a consistent mention of the helpful staff and people being
helpful in guiding people, customers through the menu and so on. So. Did you
00:32:00have any competition?
|00:32:12| Goyal No, not initially the competition was every other restaurant,
essentially. Because we did not have a- India House, was the first not only in
Dallas or North Texas, but we were the first Indian restaurant in the whole
state of Texas.
|00:32:33| Brody Really?
|00:32:34| Goyal Yeah. Because through these people that we were buying the
Indian groceries and condiments in New York and other people. So about six
months after we opened, a restaurant opened in Houston. So, and I'm sure they
probably were getting...So talking to these suppliers, that's all I know. Plus,
00:33:00you know, I visited Houston many times and visited that restaurant when it
opened also so. And then when there was nothing in Austin or San Antonio at that
time. So with those major four cities...
|00:33:29| Brody What were the biggest challenges for you in opening, starting
the business and staying in business?
|00:33:39| Goyal Starting business, not knowing. You know, before that, I was
essentially an employee at Xerox. So employee lifestyle is...our mindset is
different than a business owner or an entrepreneur. So that was the first thing
00:34:00to shift that. And then realize that you have a responsibility not only to
yourself or your family- as an employee, that's all you really care about. But
now you have a responsibility to your employees and even to your customers in a
way. So that's how it was different.
|00:34:31| Brody So how would you characterize that responsibility? What, what
did you feel responsible for to your employees and to your customers?
|00:34:40| Goyal Well, to the employees, it was to make sure that they have the
resources. They have been explained what is coming, if something is not
available that particular day, that they understand. And then if they have any
00:35:00issues with the customer, which you know in real life happens, that they know
how to be sure that customer is happy at the same time, the issue is resolved in
a peace. So that was to the employees. To the customers, since many of them were
new to the cuisine, new to this kind of food, to make sure they understand what
it is and why certain things are done the way they are and what they can do, or
how to prepare if they're even interested to prepare at home themselves.
|00:35:47| Brody Oh, that's a that's a good point. This time period, especially
later on, late 70s, early 80s, there was a real growth in interest among people
00:36:00across the country in learning how to cook foods from other cultures and Asian
cultures in particular. How did you, you know, you mentioned that educating your
customers through your menu was part of it? How did you encourage or cultivate
that- cooking?
|00:36:20| Goyal That's why...Many times they'll ask, "Oh, well, what kind of
spices? What would I need if I want to make this dish at home? Whatever it could
be- a dal or a curry or a chicken dish. So we'll explain it to them that it
takes these kind of, you know, spices and then many to say, "Well, but where can
I buy these?" So again, there was no Indian grocery stores which specialized in
Indian foods and condiments and Indian things, so they'll go to the regular
00:37:00grocery store and get some of those things. And if they were really keen on
getting, they'll get it from New York or Chicago sometimes, the dishes.
|00:37:24| Brody In the life of the restaurant, did it ever get easier to get
local, locally sourced ingredients?
|00:37:32| Goyal As the time grew, by the time three or four years had passed
and the grocery, the Indian grocery store opened in Dallas, and even though they
may have been getting from New York, they are not big enough to import
themselves directly from India. But then we could source them, support them, and
get the spice locally, and pick it up or they will deliver it. Then, having
00:38:00shipped from New York.
|00:38:08| Brody So where was that store?
|00:38:10| Goyal It was on Preston and LBJ.
|00:38:19| Brody Did you ever think about expanding or growing the restaurant?
|00:38:23| Goyal No, I never thought...One reason was, you know, the real estate
in the late 70s was booming in Dallas, so as soon as our lease expired, the
landlord said, "No, they're not going to renew it." And so we essentially shut
down after the lease expired.
|00:38:52| Brody What year was that?
|00:38:53| Goyal I think it was 75 or 76. So and by that time, the another two,
00:39:00three Indian restaurants had opened at that time.
|00:39:07| Brody At that point. Did your family work at the restaurant? How
active were they in there?
|00:39:14| Goyal No, they didn't work at the restaurant at all.
|00:39:25| Brody OK, you mentioned that your- even if every Indian person at
that time came to the restaurant once a month, that wouldn't be enough to keep
the restaurant afloat because the community was so small. Did you feel like your
restaurant was a place where people from all different cultures came to learn
about and learned about India?
|00:39:50| Goyal I think in a way they did. People who were curious, who are a
little more cosmopolitan, they definitely came in to explore and learn about the
00:40:00Indian culture and by extension, the Indian food, too. And then we participated
in many activities like they used to have international days or if SMU students
had some Indian program like Diwali or something, we either provided the food or
participated in it to some other ways. So that was, you know, true.
|00:40:47| Brody I found an article in which you, that India House participated
in the "Taste of Dallas." Were you one of the first, I guess, quote unquote
ethnic restaurants represented there?
00:41:00
|00:41:03| Goyal I can't remember if we were the only ethnic, but I'm sure there
were, if you want to consider the Mexican and Chinese, and they definitely
must have been there, if you want to call them "ethnic.'
|00:41:18| Brody What was that like? What did you serve? Do you remember?
|00:41:21| Goyal I don't remember what we served, but it's possibly a could have
been chicken or naan or something?
|00:41:34| Brody ,How did you get involved with that, do you remember the process?
|00:41:39| Goyal I was involved from day one with the Dallas Restaurant
Association and through them, I'm sure we learned about various other
opportunities, whether it's the "Taste of Dallas" or International Day Fair or
you know, any other opportunities where we could, you know show the Indian food
00:42:00because this, I thought, was excellent way to get people to taste it without
being intimidated and coming to a restaurant and thinking, Well, I don't know
what it is like. So that's why, you know, I participated as much as possible in
various opportunities.
|00:42:33| Brody Yeah. In those days, what was the "Taste of Dallas" like? Where
was it held? What did it feel and look like?
|00:42:39| Goyal I think it changed to every year where it was held, either at
the City Hall Plaza or at the Market Center on Stemmons Freeway.
|00:42:59| Brody Was it like booths? Did you have your own booth?
00:43:00
|00:43:01| Goyal Yes, we all the restaurants who were participating will have booths.
|00:43:10| Brody So one thing that comes up a lot when we're talking about
restaurants that are of a different culture or presenting food from another
culture is the question of quote unquote authenticity. So did you feel like what
you were trying to do was to serve authentic Indian food? Or, you know, you
mentioned earlier that it was kind of the standard Indian restaurant fare? Well,
how did you balance that?
|00:43:43| Goyal Well, it was absolutely authentic. When I said the "standard
restaurant fare" you know, I meant that in India, it's so diversified. You know,
00:44:00from South India, you know, dishes to the Bengal dishes and the East India. And
so this food was what you might call from North India or the Mughal. And that's
what is for the average person outside of India is considered the "Indian food"
you know, unless they really get into it, then they'll try the other regional
dishes. So that's what I meant that we were just concentrating on those dishes
cooked in the way they've been cooked, whether you're in Delhi or Mumbai or
anywhere. And so that's, not that it was in any way made to an American taste.
00:45:00
|00:45:03| Brody Yeah, that's what the, you know, a thing that I think a lot
of restaurant owners have to straddle that, you know, how do you obviously you,
you want to sell a lot of things. You want your customers to be happy. And
some people have said that they've used their menu to sort of ease people into
learning about, you know, the different, different tastes and
different things. Is that something that you thought about much?
|00:45:33| Goyal We thought about it, but it really didn't seem like it was a
necessity. One, because the food, food and the cuisine that we were serving was
more for certain spices rather than being just hot chili hot. And in that sense,
people, you know, if they tried, they didn't feel that it was in any way not
00:46:00acceptable to them.
|00:46:08| Brody You mentioned the events that SMU students might be having,
international events and things like that, did you, at the restaurant, do
special things for cultural holidays or other events?
|00:46:20| Goyal We did. Many times, we had, we celebrated the tradition of
here- the New Year's Eve party special or at Diwali time or other times. Several
different functions we had specials. And generally we'll get a good response
from those.
|00:46:52| Brody You earlier mentioned serving both lunch and dinner, and many
of the reviews of India House mentioned the lunch buffet as being, you know, a
lot of choices. What do you, what were you... What are your memories of the
00:47:00lunch buffet and the sort of the lunch crowd that you would get there?
|00:47:11| Goyal Well, the lunch crowd again came in from close by, you know, a
lot of office buildings and SMU is there. And even from downtown Dallas is just
on 75, and they could get it. We were very conveniently located. And we started
the buffet part essentially so that people would get introduced to the food. So
they could come in at lunch and they can pick and choose and try it without
having to be concerned, whether they like it or not like it. Plus, they get
introduced to the food and then if they felt then, then they would come back in
00:48:00the evening with the family. So that was instead of just having like lunch
special place. We thought, "Well, let's do the buffet, so they can, you know,
whatever one price they can take whatever or as much as they like, they can come
back if they like more. So that was the idea of the buffet. I think buffets have
proven popular with a lot of Indian restaurants, you know, ever since. But I did
it because I wanted people to try and be introduced to the food.
|00:48:53| Brody It's well-suited for lunch because people can come and go on
their own schedule.
|00:48:59| Goyal Come and go. Plus they can choose whatever they like. And then
00:49:00if they like something, they can get some more of it.
|00:49:11| Brody Was the restaurant always called "India House"?
|00:49:14| Goyal Yes. Always. After we opened, we changed the name from it used
to be "Hickory House Barbecue." We changed the name from the day we opened to
"India House."
|00:49:34| Brody And how long did the restaurant stay in business?
|00:49:38| Goyal We, I think, closed in 76 and so about five years.
|00:49:47| Brody And because of the lease?
|00:49:48| Goyal Lease. Yeah.
|00:49:50| Brody Did you consider moving to a different location?
|00:49:54| Goyal Yes and no. By that time, I've become a full fledged
entrepreneur because I left Xerox after one, about one year, so I was looking at
00:50:00other things all the time. So I got into some other businesses after that.
|00:50:13| Brody Still in the food industry?
|00:50:17| Goyal Well, a little bit related food and drinks, so I didn't pursue
another restaurant.
|00:50:28| Brody When you look back at those times, what are some lessons or
reflections that that you have?
|00:50:35| Goyal Well. I think if you understand your market, and you really
want to do it, you know, it may take harder, hard work than if, let's say if you
are selling hamburgers, you know, your market is much larger for hamburgers than
00:51:00it is for Indian tandoori chicken. But, so you may have to work harder and
educate people, but it definitely can be done. And we enjoyed it. It was good. I
mean, it was a lot harder than I would have thought. The restaurant business is
one of the few businesses where you have a manufacturing and a retail and a
service, everything. You know, if you open a manufacturing, then all you're
doing, if you're doing chip manufacturing, that's all you're doing. Whereas in
restaurants, you're manufacturing the food in the kitchen and then you have the
service, you're also service business, you're also manufacturing business. So in
that sense, the restaurant is a multi-faceted business.
00:52:00
|00:52:06| Brody Absolutely. How has Dallas changed in all the time that you've
been here?
|00:52:13| Goyal It's changed tremendously. It's...it used to be a small town.
Now it is really the whole Dallas, what they call the Metroplex is much bigger,
much more cosmopolitan. You know, |inaudible| after we opened the India House
six months after that, the DFW airport opened and then that we thought was
great. We thought, Oh, now people will be traveling in and out and they'll be
going to Europe. They'll be going to Asia, Africa and all over and with direct
00:53:00flights from Dallas. I mean, it isn't that they didn't travel before, but it was
not as convenient many times they have to either go to New York or through L.A.
and change flights. Plus, the business community was expanding and growing and
with the airport opening, they both kind of piggyback to each other. Businesses
saw, "Hey, this was a great location for business." They could very conveniently
do business anywhere in the world from Dallas. So more and more businesses came
and so they just piggybacked each other. And then as a result, we, on the
sideline, we had the advantage that many people felt, "Oh, yeah we want to go to
00:54:00India." It became one of the choices after they have travelled there.
|00:54:16| Brody So people's tastes became more open or more sophisticated?
|00:54:20| Goyal Exactly.
|00:54:23| Brody Similarly, what are some of your observations about the Asian
community in Dallas? You mentioned how small it was when you first arrived, and
it's grown quite a bit. What are some of your observations about those changes
within those communities?
|00:54:40| Goyal I think the community started expanding with the IT, when a lot
of IT-related companies either sprung up or moved into Dallas area. They brought
in a lot of people who were IT-oriented expertise in the IT field. And so that's
00:55:00what started, and it's still true even in 2022. And, and then, of course, the
universities...There are...UTD was a small, at that time. But now it's got a lot
of students from India and Asia and the faculty also. So that too. And as the
Indian community grew, so did the Indian businesses that cater to them and also
the other opportunities that the Indian community got involved in. It became so
00:56:00large that there are not only the whole India Association is there, but there
are regional community organizations because again, because there's enough
volume of families that they need to have that cultural issues.
|00:56:39| Brody When you put yourself back in the time period when the
restaurant was open, do you have any... What was your most memorable story
from the restaurant?
|00:56:58| Goyal I have to think about it for a second. I guess nothing major.
00:57:00But again, just like, you know, I've made a lot of mistakes when I went to
Korean or Vietnamese food. This same kind of thing that somebody taking our
chutneys or something, thinking that's the meal and just eating it or drinking
it, and then realized, "Oh no, that was just condiment or this side dish."
|00:57:48| Brody Right? You go back to that education piece that you were
talking about. Yeah. Did you ever have any celebrities or athletes or anybody
00:58:00come through the restaurant?
|00:58:03| Goyal Oh, all the time. A lot of times, you know, we didn't keep
track of that, because in those days the Beatlemania was there. A lot of people
were, you know, oriented and a lot of those people came to the restaurant
because they wanted the Indian food when they were coming through town for
whatever reason, a concert or otherwise.
|00:58:32| Brody Did the Beatles come to the restaurant?
|00:58:33| Goyal No, not the Beatles. I mean, that was the period, right?
And The Beatles, kind of all the others. So because of them, Indian food and
yoga was popular and getting popular each day. So that's why many of them came
in and whenever the Indian ambassador or somebody came to town. They, of course,
00:59:00always came to the restaurant or we had the food, you know, catered and we took
it if there was a function with the community.
|00:59:18| Brody It's great. It sounds like the timing of when you had the
restaurant, when you started the restaurant was exactly when there was a really
huge growth in interest in Indian culture and Indian food.
|00:59:35| Goyal Excellent observation.
|00:59:39| Brody Good timing. Good timing. Well, is there anything that I didn't
ask you that you'd like to share or a story that you'd like to include?
|00:59:53| Goyal Nothing I can think of...Since we were the only Indian
restaurant, many times we got invited to various functions. Our cook would be
01:00:00invited, you know, like, you know. A major hotel downtown, Fairmont. They wanted
to have a India Week, so our chef went in and worked with there chef to prepare
Indian dishes. Same way Neiman Marcus, when they have, they used to have a
"Fortnight" various countries and I think one year they did India. So we helped
them with Indian various functions they had.
|01:00:47| Brody Did you ever do cooking classes?
|01:00:51| Goyal No, we never did the cooking classes. You know, the chef didn't
feel they were really geared toward teaching. And this Ruben Buster who was the
01:01:00cook at the barbecue place, and I kept him alone. He learned. He was the only
one we taught I guess.
|01:01:24| Brody Did any of those chefs, after India House closed, go start
their own places?
|01:01:31| Goyal Not only the cooks did, but even some of the waiters and
managers that did. Just so happened a couple of them are in the Dallas area.
|01:01:46| Brody Oh, really? Do you know what restaurants?
|01:01:49| Goyal Well, one is Mumtaz. Other is Maharajah. And the other is, we
went to New Orleans one time when "Well, let's go try the Indian food." We had
01:02:00some American friends with us and behold, the guy who was our manager. He said,
"Oh, Mr. Goyal, what are you doing here?
|01:02:16| Brody He started his restaurant. He started an Indian restaurant in
New Orleans?
|01:02:19| Goyal Right. So that's the same way our other cook that we brought
from India. He went to California. He worked at many places there.
|01:02:36| Brody That's really interesting. Well, I really appreciated hearing
all of your stories and your, your thoughts about your experience running India
House. I appreciate you being part of this project and thank you so much.
|01:02:49| Goyal Well, thank you. I appreciate all you're doing. Anything that
you think of, if you need some more answers, if I can help you have, you know,
01:03:00call me.
|01:03:06| Brody Thank you so much.
|01:03:09| Goyal Alright. Thank you.