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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Betsy Brody
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Xay Senephoumy
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Interview with Xay Senephoumy, February 18, 2022 2021oh002_di_006 01:13:27 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking Lao Grocer, Asian American Xay Senephoumy Betsy Brody m4a oh_audio_dig_senephoumy_xay_20220218.m4a 1:|14(7)|24(12)|36(2)|50(5)|76(1)|93(8)|145(6)|157(6)|169(4)|180(7)|209(1)|237(1)|253(7)|266(7)|281(11)|290(7)|304(8)|314(9)|327(11)|344(9)|353(6)|366(7)|380(8)|411(13)|424(9)|452(4)|467(4)|477(14)|489(15)|502(1)|538(7)|551(4)|562(7)|572(9)|584(3)|598(2)|616(15)|629(7)|651(2)|666(4)|676(12)|685(11)|711(10)|723(3)|756(4)|764(5)|774(2)|787(8)|797(6)|810(12)|820(8)|828(6)|841(14)|849(14)|859(2)|876(13)|907(2)|928(4)|936(14) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/162895 Aviary audio 4 Introduction Asian American grocers ; Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Lao ; Texas--History 35 Moving to the United States from Laos Colorado ; Houston ; Laos ; Nebraska ; Texas 235 Arriving in Dallas in 2000/ Opening Nalinh Market Asian grocery ; business ; chewing tobacco ; community ; Dallas ; family run restaurant ; grocer store ; hub ; laab ; Lao ; Lao food ; Laotian ; Laotian community ; Laotian food ; larb ; Nalinh Market ; papaya salad ; sticky rice ; Taco Bell ; vegetables 32.81330398611661, -96.9237610554398 17 631 Lao community in Dallas culture ; diverse ; diversity ; Lao ; Lao New Year ; Lao Temple ; Laos ; Laotion community ; New Year ; Rockwall Temple ; Saginaw Temple 893 Beginning to serve food at Nalinh Market advertising ; Asian grocery ; business ; customers ; food ; grocery store ; house party ; hub ; Irving ; kitchen ; landlord ; Lao ; Lao food ; Laos ; Laotian community ; license ; permit ; racism ; social media ; sourcing ; street food ; Thai ; vegetables ; veterans ; word of mouth ; Yelp 2058 Opening Saap Saap and the impact of COVID business ; COVID ; curbside ; Lao ; Laotian food ; marketing ; Nalinh Market ; pandemic ; pivot ; Saap Saap ; shutdown ; takeout ; training 2606 Reflections on the concept of " ; authenticity" ; and ethnic food authentic ; authenticity ; ethnic food ; Hunan beef ; orange chicken ; palate ; Taco Bell ; upscale ; western palate 2888 Food as a tool to educate and connect/ Nalinh Market as a community hub bridge ; community ; connect ; connection ; culture ; curiousity ; educate ; education ; food ; hub ; Lao community ; Lao culture ; Laos ; respect ; word of mouth 3415 Future of Lao food in Dallas authentic ; authenticity ; Bon Appetit ; Dallas ; diverse ; diversity ; educate ; education ; immigrant ; Lao ; Laos ; Laotian food ; Laotian restaurants ; neighborhood ; palate ; Restaurant City of the Year ; Saap Saap ; Thai food 3886 Senephoumy's mother's background cooking ; food ; Lao ; Laos ; Laotian ; refugee ; refugee camp |00:00:04| BRODY This is Betsy Brody. Today is February 18, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Xay Senephoumy. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; All right, Xay, thank you so much for meeting me and sitting for this interview. Let' ; s just start out real quickly with where and when were you born? |00:00:39| SENEPHOUMY I was born 3rd of February 1979 capital city of Laos at the trail end of the, during the trail end of the Southeast Asian conflict in Vientiane, Laos. |00:00:59| BRODY What brought you to Texas? |00:01:01| SENEPHOUMY What brought me to Texas? That' ; s a long story. In short, I came to America. My parents came to America when I was about a year and a half, less than two years old. I think we landed in Houston, stayed in Houston for two or three years or whatnot, bounced around between Grand Island, Nebraska and the Greeley, Colorado area, maybe for the next couple of years. By the time I was five or kindergarten, something like that ended up going to New Britain, Connecticut, where I was raised. Until I think fifth grade. I moved out to a podunk town called Grand Island, Nebraska, graduated high school there had to get out of there as soon as possible. We moved out to the closest Metro- Denver- and stayed there for about two years and ended up here in in the Dallas area in about the year 2000. And I' ; d been here pretty much since then. Have moved a couple of places while I was here, but I always ended up back here. |00:02:25| BRODY What was your family doing that you were moving to all these places? |00:02:28| SENEPHOUMY Um, you could kind of compare them to migrant workers. They just went to, you know, they weren' ; t formally educated in the U.S. So they just went wherever the work was. And that' ; s how the Laotian community was at the time. If one family hears about one job somewhere, they... They would ask if there' ; s other positions available for the other 20 people they know and we would just follow. We' ; re like migrating herd. Any kind of work, really factory work. I remember my mom doing. She was working for an electronic or electrical coil wire manufacturing company in Connecticut. She was doing the assembly line for that. And then after that, most of the Asian communities at the time ended up going to places like Kansas and Nebraska to work the slaughterhouses- slaughter cows. |00:03:34| BRODY Right. So you mentioned your mom. How large was the family that you were, your immediate family? |00:03:40| SENEPHOUMY My immediate family was pretty small, consisted of mom, my older sister and I, and every once in a while, dad would that would pop up in and out of the picture. Yeah. So three or four of us consistently. |00:03:55| BRODY OK. So you, you all ended up in Dallas around 2000. What was going on then? What did you do then? |00:04:02| SENEPHOUMY 2000. What I did, I was, was trying to find myself. I was young. Two years in a college. I left college because I wanted to work and hang out. I wasn' ; t sure who I was. So my ah, my parents, my mom and stepdad bought a little- they purchased a little grocery store down here, a little convenience store that was owned by another Laotian family. And I wasn' ; t really doing much in Denver, so they asked me if I wanted to come and help with the family business and I came down. |00:04:39| BRODY So they bought the grocery store. And so it was all- it was- what was it called? Oh, do you remember? |00:04:46| SENEPHOUMY I don' ; t remember the name of it. |00:04:49| BRODY But they were already serving the... |00:04:51| SENEPHOUMY No, definitely not. |00:04:52| BRODY OK. |00:04:52| SENEPHOUMY Serving food? |00:04:53| BRODY No, serving the Laotian community? Or was there a Laotian community? |00:04:56| SENEPHOUMY Yes, there' ; s Dallas. At the time that my parents moved here, where Dallas was probably, probably still is the biggest Laotian community in America. |00:05:07| BRODY Oh, really? Yeah. Why do you think that is? |00:05:11| SENEPHOUMY Business opportunities, cost of living? And I think because we' ; re jungle people, you know, we can take the heat. I can' ; t, but they can. |00:05:25| BRODY That' ; s funny. So, OK, so the grocery store, they bought it. Your mom and stepdad. And...Tell me about what that was like when they first started. |00:05:34| SENEPHOUMY Oh, when they first started, it was just a little like bodega type, little grocery store- sold veggies and imported goods that that were hard to find in the bigger Vietnamese super, super grocery stores. |00:05:51| BRODY What kind of things? |00:05:55| SENEPHOUMY Maybe some clothing, some special like wicker imports that we would use to- like kitchen utensils, things to cook with and whatnot. And it' ; s funny. One of the big things that you can' ; t find at other stores that the older ladies, they, they chew this like chewing tobacco or that type of thing. And we sold that where most places wouldn' ; t. So at the time in Irving, there was a there was a older Laotian community and we were the place to serve the older generations. |00:06:40| BRODY What is that? Chewing tobacco called? |00:06:43| SENEPHOUMY In our language and you can look it up...Yeah, we call it " ; chian maak" ; which literally translates to chewing, " ; chewing plants" ; |00:06:55| BRODY Chewing plants. |00:06:56| SENEPHOUMY But it' ; s it... |00:07:00| BRODY It was a big seller. |00:07:01| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, it' ; s...I' ; m trying not to laugh because unless you' ; ve seen it before, you' ; d understand, well, why, why I' ; m giggling. 80 year old ladies chewing tobacco. Their mouths are fuller than any cowboy you' ; ve seen around here. And they don' ; t have a spitting cup, you know, they' ; re just right there. Big old...like what looks like a half a gallon coming out of their mouths. It' ; s an amazing sight. |00:07:29| BRODY That' ; s a great image. So, had your mom or stepdad ever done anything like that type of a business before? |00:07:37| SENEPHOUMY Actually, yes. When, when I was living in Connecticut as a child. One of my aunts owned a grocery store in Danbury, Connecticut. And every weekend we would drive up there- about an hour away from New Britain, where I grew up, and we would help out at her grocery store and I would just hang out there all day. And I guess that' ; s what planted the seed. |00:08:06| BRODY Right? Kind of learned the ropes there. |00:08:07| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. |00:08:08| BRODY And it seemed doable and manageable. |00:08:11| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. You know, we weren' ; t thinking about it at the time. At the time, we were just helping family members, you know, we had nothing else to do on the weekend, go help family and cook and eat and hang out. |00:08:21| BRODY Right? Tell me about Laotian food. |00:08:23| SENEPHOUMY Oh, Laotian food. And I get asked this all the time. What' ; s the difference between Laotian food and Thai food? And if people just ask me outright " ; Can you tell me about Laotian food?" ; I say, " ; Well, it' ; s just like Thai food, but more rustic, very bold flavors, unapologetic, bold flavors." ; It' ; s definitely not made or masked for, for the, for the gringo palate. And I like, I like to give this analogy to a lot of people. I tell them it' ; s like it' ; s like trying to call Uncle Julio' ; s or Taco Bell " ; real Mexican food" ; when you know it' ; s not. |00:09:14| BRODY Right. What are the like sort of signature dishes? |00:09:19| SENEPHOUMY Oh, sticky rice. Of course, sticky rice is a must have in every household. Sticky rice and steamed rice, but mainly compared to, compared to Thai households, we definitely will have sticky rice. Thai households won' ; t. Papaya salad stands out. It' ; s made with this real stinky, anchovy based sauce that' ; s fermented for anywhere between weeks to months. The stinkier, the better. That' ; s, that' ; s just how that dish goes. Some more traditional ones would be like a laab, beef laab. Its minced meat of choice dish, whether it be chicken, pork or beef. Traditionally with Laotians, it' ; s a, it' ; s mostly beef, where the meat is the showcase, and then it' ; s mixed with herbs like onions and just, just mince, and whatever fresh herbs that we would find in our backyard. |00:10:29| BRODY Sounds really good. Oh, so what was Dallas like when you got here? |00:10:35| SENEPHOUMY When I got here, when I got here in 2000, let me rewind. When I got here in 2000, it was like a second home to me because all my all, my extended family members live here- my uncles and cousins and whatnot- and they' ; re in business themselves here. But the whole time I was with...I was living in Nebraska as a teenager. We would often periodically come, come down here to visit. So it wasn' ; t a culture shock to me. So I was ready for it and I was used to it. The only thing I was shocked me was, was the summer heat, which I' ; ve been here about 20 years worth, and I still can' ; t take it. I was raised in the snow. So this isn' ; t... |00:11:22| BRODY It' ; s a whole different thing. So you mentioned that you knew a lot of, you know, family, extended family, and that the Laotian community here was established by 2000. In terms of sort of diversity. You know, were you with, I mean, coming from Nebraska, coming from Connecticut, what were what were your impressions? |00:11:46| SENEPHOUMY Diversity wise. I was, you know, Nebraska is the majority white working class, Caucasian working class. I would assume at the time all the brown people worked at the slaughterhouse with my parents. I was used to the diversity because I would travel here a lot and, you know, I was fortunate to visit another country and go to many states when I was younger, too. But if I were to take an average Nebraskan and bring them to Dallas, the first time, which I did... Brought my best friend down to the to the Houston, NASA thing on a family vacation with us, who were about 16 at the time. And he, he didn' ; t know what to do. He was scared and shocked. It was, uh, too colorful for him, to say the least, but, you know, for regular people like that, it could be a surprise, but you know, fortunately, not for us. |00:13:01| BRODY Texas was more diverse than... |00:13:03| SENEPHOUMY Oh yeah, definitely. Very, very diverse. Very. |00:13:06| Diverse. |00:13:08| BRODY How about with connecting with the larger Lao community? Were there events or more casual get togethers? |00:13:19| SENEPHOUMY Yes. |00:13:20| BRODY At that time. There are, and there still are till this day. One of the big events is Lao New Year' ; s, which happens in April. And what they do, what they do is they do a food celebration. People just come out sing, eat, drink. It' ; s a community gathering and there' ; s about four main temples in the DFW area, and they' ; ll split the weekends. Like they' ; ll do Lao New Year party at one and the other. That way, we' ; re not favoring one part of town or one side of the community or, you know, we show some love at all the all the local temples. And that' ; s a big thing. People come around from all over the country, Lao people, a lot of different Southeast Asian people, even Caucasians. Some of my Latino friends from Atlanta fly in just for that. |00:14:18| BRODY Wow. That' ; s where is it held? At the temples, physically? |00:14:22| SENEPHOUMY The yeah, the big one is the Saginaw Temple. That' ; s the big hoedown right there. That' ; s the one everybody wants to go to. The big Rockwall Temple is pretty nice, too. They do a big thing over there as well. A couple more. I can' ; t recall the name of the other two, but yeah, those are the two big ones. But the one that people travel for is the Saginaw party. |00:14:53| BRODY So tell me about the store. When you, so when, your mom and your stepdad opened it, what was it called? And what was the sort of a typical day for them? Who were their customers then |00:15:06| SENEPHOUMY Basically just the local Irving Lao community was their everyday customers. We did the same customers every day, every weekend. You know, like I said, we just pretty much catered to the local population, to the Irving population. When they opened it, it was called Nalinh Market, because my mom' ; s brother, Nalinh from Nebraska, she my mom, convinced his family to move here with us as well to start this business. So it was named after him. His name sounded better than everybody else' ; s name. It just rolled off your tongue a little better. |00:15:52| BRODY And it was in Irving where exactly.? |00:15:55| SENEPHOUMY Irving. Irving Boulevard and Loop 12...boulevard and Loop 12. It' ; s... Right next to the to the 7-11, right off the highway. |00:16:08| BRODY So initially, you said they bought it, were they renting the space or they bought it outright? |00:16:14| SENEPHOUMY They, they bought the business and equipment from the previous owner. I don' ; t know how much it was, but. And we' ; re still renting the space out from the landlord to this day. |00:16:27| BRODY Yeah. So sort of the nuts and bolts of starting and continuing a business for such a long time. You know- what goes into that? What, what has your family' ; s experience been with sourcing and maintaining the space and so on? |00:16:44| SENEPHOUMY Initially, the nuts and bolts of it were pretty simple. We were just retailing grocery items and fresh veggies. You know, my mom would just basically repackage vegetables. She would go get them from the bigger supermarkets, chop them down in smaller quantities. Made them prettier, you know, and just dressed them up and sold them in smaller, more affordable quantities. And that was pretty much it for the first. I' ; d say, like 10 years of their business |00:17:17| BRODY And then what happened? |00:17:19| SENEPHOUMY And then what changed our lives was- Different families from different states started moving to Texas. Some old friends of our family. And my mom was known back in the 80s for making food, great food at house parties. And you know, we get her old friends moving here and they' ; re asking, " ; Hey, are you still a good cook and whatnot? I miss your food from...Remember in 1984, when our kids were little rugrats and you made this special dish at the house? Can you still make it?" ; Mom' ; s..." ; You know, yeah, I think I can still make it." ; So she was unbeknownst to her, she was coerced to make a couple of dishes for sale by her old friends and just snowballed from there. |00:18:17| BRODY Really? So did she make them right there in the store? |00:18:23| SENEPHOUMY Not, not, after the first initial request, she just said, I don' ; t have those items with me right now. Let me get them. When do you want to come back? Couple of days? The weekend? So they came back on the weekend. But those dishes, they loved them and word spread |00:18:41| BRODY The rest is history. |00:18:42| SENEPHOUMY The rest is history. There' ; s a funny detail involved in that too. Where there was no kitchen in Nalinh Market. It was just a little grocery store, a little bodega. And mom was trying to think, " ; Well, I don' ; t want to cook from the house and bring my friend this food." ; So she grabs a Bunsen burner and a little frying pan and just cooks that for that individual. And as word of mouth got around, she was using the same Bunsen burner to cook food for the next....who knows how many people, right? Just, you know, and we didn' ; t...We don' ; t even have....We didn' ; t have a food permit. We' ; re not supposed to cook back then, but she' ; s doing it for these people. And then and then she hit it big time to the point where she had to upgrade to a double Bunsen burner to keep up with requests. Yeah, and months roll by, and she' ; s still cooking, and the demand increases as the popularity, word of mouth in the in the neighborhoods is spreading, and I just I have a talk with mom. I say, " ; Mom, you have to put the Bunsen burners away. It' ; s embarrassing. Why don' ; t we? Why don' ; t we build a little kitchen back here?" ; And, you know, we started with a little makeshift kitchen. And it' ; s still, if you go into Nalinh Market today, it still looks like a little makeshift kitchen because that spot was never meant to be a restaurant. And, you know. And that that' ; s where it all began with a Bunsen burner. |00:20:40| BRODY That' ; s fascinating and a really great story. Do you remember what the original food was that she was cooking? |00:20:48| SENEPHOUMY Laab. Beef laab. Which is a traditional dish, yeah. |00:20:53| BRODY And you mentioned that, you know that the demand started to grow through word of mouth. Was it mostly Lao people who were coming? |00:21:02| SENEPHOUMY Yes, it was definitely Lao people at first. It was definitely Lao people at first. And then when we got to the point where we had to have where we decided to put just two little sit down tables, four chair, sit down tables. I don' ; t know if we were even allowed or permitted by the city yet to, to cook there. But you know, it' ; s what we did until we were told differently. Yeah, so we were, we were mostly serving people we knew- friends or family. And then it would spread out to the local Laotian residents and then as we got more popular and this is when technology kind of changed the game a little bit, Yelp first started coming out and I- they, my parents still don' ; t know this to this day. I created two fake Caucasian accounts. I remember the first one, Mr. Steve Martin, and the next one was like Mr. Sam Sampson, and I created our very first reviews for Nalinh Market, and I said, " ; I' ; ve never had this type of food before. Wow, this is great. Southeast Asian food reminds me of Thailand." ; you know, because Americans are familiar with Thailand. People saw those reviews and then the other ethnicities started coming. |00:22:38| BRODY That' ; s really interesting because, well, first of all that that you created the Yelp accounts and secondly, that the way that you went about doing it. That I mean, were you thinking that this food is really great, but this is how to introduce it to a different... |00:22:58| SENEPHOUMY Not the, not the " ; really great" ; part yet because of I was an IT guy at the time. I went to school forIT. And I started doing, you know, basic IT work at any place I can. So just the fast forward, I ended up having a 20 year IT career before I opened my first restaurant, Saap Saap. So back at the time when I created those fake accounts, I was already in the IT realm. And you know, I heard of Yelp and these review apps and whatnot, and I just said, " ; Hey, I' ; m going to give us a review. The world doesn' ; t know about us. The real world does not know about us. Let' ; s, let' ; s get this out to, you know, let' ; s expand it beyond our community." ; |00:23:45| BRODY Did that happen? |00:23:46| SENEPHOUMY Immediately. |00:23:47| BRODY Yes. Tell me about that. What was the cause and effect there? |00:23:52| SENEPHOUMY Well, we would get our first Caucasian set of customers in. My parents would ask them if they were lost or if there' ; s anything particular they' ; re looking for. And they just said, " ; Hey, we heard the food is the food is good here. I have some Thai friends, you know? Is it similar to your food?" ; And we just introduced them to our food and it was all word of mouth at the time. And it still is. We don' ; t do any marketing. We didn' ; t spend a dime on marketing then. Just as I told you, the only marketing we had was me and my free fake accounts. And yeah, it just, just, just spread by word of mouth and we started getting other, other people of other ethnicities and... Yeah, yeah, we just saw that the demand was starting to grow, and I convinced, eventually convinced my mom to get legitimate licenses and go to the city and whatnot to where we could actually have a mini full kitchen in that location and convinced her to put out a third and fourth table. |00:25:20| BRODY So when those non-Lao people started coming in, did they know what they were looking for? Did they use your family as a guide to, you know-" ; What? What is this supposed to taste like? What am I looking for? What' ; s good here?" ; |00:25:39| SENEPHOUMY Initially, they played it safe for the for the most part because, you know, everybody' ; s eaten Thai food, ordered the things that they' ; re used to, the familiar dishes, Pad Thai and whatnot, egg rolls and whatnot. And then what I did, you know, I' ; m more talkative than my parents. So when I was working my IT job, I would come and help them out on the weekends. I' ; d get hungry, free food, right? And I, I would see the same Caucasian customers returning and same Mexican customers returning. I would say, " ; Hey, I see that you' ; re eating spicier. You should try this dish." ; And suggest other dishes and whatnot. And that' ; s...That' ; s how we got them to open up their palate a little bit. |00:26:29| BRODY Right? Had many of them even heard of Laos before? |00:26:32| SENEPHOUMY Most of them...No. I' ; d say like 95 percent of the people didn' ; t. The older generation did. There would be some which I later learned after they become my friends. They were...They were veterans of the war and they were stationed in Thailand, et cetera. And you know, they said this, this reminds them so much of the Thai street food, and they were versed. But for the most part, no, we had to, we had to guide them and ease them into it. |00:27:03| BRODY Did the menu expand rapidly or it sort of stay to a small number of items? |00:27:10| SENEPHOUMY I' ; d say initially very small because we didn' ; t know what we were getting ourselves into. We weren' ; t prepared for the business side of things, so we were only able to manage what we could handle. And then after we were getting more popular with, with just a general DFW population, there are more requests for certain traditional dishes, which were easy for us to do. We just, I think we just needed, needed that convincing, you know...needed that little push. Customers asked for it and we shall provide. |00:27:58| BRODY That' ; s great. So eventually, you did interact with the city and get the permits, and all of that stuff. Can you tell me more about that? |00:28:09| SENEPHOUMY It was pretty simple. We just. Well. Probably not the best. Initially, they would come in and tell us, " ; Hey, you can' ; t do this. You don' ; t have permits for it. Where your permits?" ; " ; OK, sir. So what? What do we need to do to get to that point?" ; And they, you know they walked us through it. |00:28:29| BRODY It was pretty cooperative. |00:28:30| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, yeah, it was cooperative. And there was there was no negativity at all. They saw that we, you know, they probably saw us as an asset to the community for the things that we were doing and that they help us out. |00:28:43| BRODY Yeah. Did you experience with that in that time period, any kind of racism or any difficulties or challenges that way? |00:28:54| SENEPHOUMY I would say 2007ish, you know, there was really no racism. The markets were good, everybody was making money. I think oil was, you know, the economy was great. Everybody was happy. There was no, no public tension. You know, we get a few idiots here and there, but not nothing that would stand out. Nothing bad. All that racist stuff comes later. |00:29:25| BRODY Yeah, some people who have businesses that are, you know, Asian businesses or other immigrant businesses talk about difficulties, maybe with the immediate neighbors, neighborhood difficulties over signage or things like that. Did you experience any of that? |00:29:44| SENEPHOUMY Not really, because our location in South Irving. It' ; s a minority community, to say the least, you know. So we didn' ; t we didn' ; t really have any problems and our neighbors, like our business neighbors, they...They specialized in their own businesses, so we weren' ; t stepping on anybody' ; s toes or anything like that, and we all got along well. |00:30:12| BRODY Good. That kind of raises the question of competition. At that time, was there any other business that was selling Laotian food? |00:30:22| SENEPHOUMY Not really. There were, at the time, there might have been one or two, but they were, they were located so far, like in Fort Worth and I think maybe one in Haltom City, to where we, we didn' ; t compete. |00:30:42| BRODY Right. Did you...Were you, not competing, but did you have a relationship? |00:30:47| SENEPHOUMY Oh yeah, it' ; s such a small community. I' ; d say more, more- more of my mom' ; s knowledge. The older community just knows everybody. They know everybody. The younger people like me, we have no idea whose kids are who and whatnot until we see each other events or parties. |00:31:10| BRODY So that' ; s interesting that the community is so small that, you know, if you have a similar business that you could maybe compare notes or, you know, share information. You mentioned earlier that you were just, you know, early on sort of trying to keep up with the business side of things. What were some of the challenges and factors there? |00:31:34| SENEPHOUMY Well, I would say a lot of it would have been the accounting. I, at the time, was the only first person...I wouldn' ; t say first, my sister was kind of starting too. I was the only one in our family with the real American formal education. So my mom and stepdad who were running the business, they were just...They were just running it off of muscle memory, really. They...They didn' ; t have the accounting education to handle business the right way at that time. |00:32:11| BRODY And taxes and all of that kind of stuff. |00:32:13| SENEPHOUMY Right. The, you know, even though they didn' ; t understand all the taxes and whatnot, they would just hire a local tax person to handle that for them. |00:32:25| BRODY Great. And the status of the business now? Still, still going? |00:32:28| SENEPHOUMY Now? My sister runs that location. She' ; s considering getting out of it. Prior to COVID, we were, I would say, maybe the top three most popular Lao family restaurants...Maybe, maybe in the country. In the state, for sure. You know? |00:33:04| BRODY Tell me about what your trajectory was after that period of time, what did you do after the Nalinh Market and the initial run of that, of that restaurant and turning it into a restaurant. |00:33:20| SENEPHOUMY Um, my goal was just to expand the audience and my family was fortunate that I was, I have am IT background, so I used whatever social media was available at the time, and just wanted to reach out to different audiences just to, you know, spread the word a little more. I was still very reluctant to marketing. And I think if I was more educated on that and knew more people to help, I would say, we would have actually been, been in better business than we were. Yeah, we probably would have made an even bigger impact. |00:34:17| BRODY You went on to start your own restaurant as well, right? |00:34:21| SENEPHOUMY Yes, yes. A sidebar and we can talk about this off, off camera, off the mic, but mom and I decided it was time to two separate ways from Nalinh Market, so we had a good talk. Mom said, " ; You know, use your education. You didn' ; t go to school for nothing. You' ; ve been the IT field for umpteen years, 15 years. You' ; ve held whatever government clearances for your jobs and whatnot, you know, you have a decent future doing that." ; And I said, " ; Mom, you know, if you stop the community going to be sad." ; So it made me think and it made me realize that I had to carry on the tradition. And in short, I decided to open up the restaurant. The second restaurant, which was called Saap Saap and Mom and I ran that from 2017, January of 2017, till its closing day, few, couple of months ago, I would say November of 2021. |00:35:35| BRODY So that kind of puts you smack in the middle of COVID and all of, all of that. How did COVID impact both businesses? |00:35:45| SENEPHOUMY COVID didn' ; t really impact the original location that bad, because we' ; ve already established a good customer base- about 20 years worth of work of customers- and then the location was ideal too. It' ; s right off the highway, easy to find and whatnot. We' ; ve already had a good social media following, so the fan base was there. At Saap Saap, it impacted us tremendously and horribly. So COVID really started for the public in what? January or Februaryish of twenty, right? 2020. OK, so I' ; ve already been in business there three years and the trend was that we were very slow in the winters. We' ; re basically dead in the winters. And but that year, right before COVID, my, my doors were open every night. All the seats were full. You couldn' ; t get a seat in my place. We were peak. I had, I had the perfect staff. It took me three years to cultivate a great staff. I had everything we ever needed and my staff and I were even looking at each other going, " ; Wow, this is this is January, this is February, and people are waiting for seats here. This this is amazing." ; So we' ; re peaking. We' ; re at our very best. And then....Not even a few weeks later, we, we get hit with the COVID rules, you know? Dine in is chopped down to what, a quarter? 25 percent of the time? I' ; m a dine in location at Saap Saap, so automatically, you know, 75, 75 percent of my income is affected, is taken away. So I' ; m...from the very first or second week of the COVID rules and laws, I' ; m already so, so deep, you know? |00:37:58| BRODY It hit you hard. |00:37:59| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, I' ; m just trying to trying to fight an uphill battle. |00:38:06| BRODY That' ; s really hard timing because you were hitting your momentum, |00:38:10| SENEPHOUMY Yes. |00:38:10| BRODY ...hitting your stride. |00:38:11| SENEPHOUMY Yes. And on top of that too, we emotionally it, it just it. It took its toll on us, but we had an exit plan for Mom because we built up our staff and, in that business and especially with our family' ; s food, it' ; s so hard to get the cooks to make the food the way we do it, because there are no formal recipes. It' ; s, it' ; s our family' ; s recipes, it' ; s the school was my mom' ; s kitchen, you know, and I' ; ve, I' ; ve been clinging in on her butt since I was a little kid and that' ; s how I learned to cook. It' ; s very hard to teach anybody how to make food the way we make it, and we were able to do it with our new staff or current staff at the time. So we had an exit plan for Mom. We said, we had a team meeting, " ; Hey, can we do this without Mom?" ; Yes. " ; Do you know your job?" ; Everybody knows their job. Fine. Mom' ; s going to retire in April and we' ; ll give her some retired benefits. But she' ; s out of here. She' ; s, getting old, let her go, see the world and whatnot. And once COVID hit, those plans were scrapped. Ended up losing my, my staff, my whole staff and Mom and I were left to run the business by ourselves. Just the two of us. |00:39:42| BRODY Wow. So did you...A lot of restaurants pivoted to curbside and takeout. Is that sort of the strategy? |00:39:51| SENEPHOUMY Um, we had to...we had to adapt to it. We didn' ; t have a choice. Our- what services did we use- the carry out services like what Uber Eats and whatnot? Our orders went up, but, we that just didn' ; t help because our customer base were a dine in base and most of our customer base loved the intimacy of what we provided. |00:40:29| BRODY Yeah. Can you tell me about, you know, just it' ; s a sad ending, but to go back to the happier times when you were hitting your stride, what was your vision for Saap Saap? What was what type of place was it? What was, what did you hope your customers would feel when they were there? |00:40:46| SENEPHOUMY I, um, I didn' ; t have any plans for how I hoped the customer would feel. My, my initial vision was just to use our food as a tool to educate the community and you could say the rest of the world, expose them to, to our culture and to my people. And what better way would there be to do that than to break bread with somebody, right? Feed people. They' ; re happy. You get talking. You become buddies and the word spreads around, you know? Just to educate the community about our culture and our -through, through our food, really. And business wise, I wanted to open multiple locations like maybe three or four locations. We had another location in the works at the time right before COVID. We' ; re planning that out. We' ; re strategists, we were strategizing for about, you know, two, two or three additional locations. And I think that' ; ll work, that would have worked out well. The, the vibe of our patrons just came naturally. You know, we, we grew up in Podunk, Nebraska, where everybody knows everybody and we' ; re just comfortable talking to our neighbors. You don' ; t really get that in most restaurants that you eat at nowadays. And you know, the customers at the table don' ; t get to speak with the executive chef. Call them by first name. Say hi to them every time they eat. It was like that at our place. And that' ; s what the customers liked and wanted. And that' ; s also why the, the takeout option during COVID didn' ; t work, because that wasn' ; t our customer base. You know, they wanted to be there for, for the whole atmosphere, for the whole experience as well. Not- they didn' ; t just want to grab their food and go. |00:42:55| BRODY Right. Well, it kind of ties together what you were saying earlier that- about training chefs that, you know, that it' ; s hard to teach people exactly the ins and outs of your mom' ; s cooking or your family' ; s cooking, and it sounds like the restaurant anyway was something like being in your in your home. |00:43:19| SENEPHOUMY Yes, yes. |00:43:19| BRODY Right? With you and with your, you know, with your mom. So that makes sense. That kind of leads pretty naturally into another set of questions that deal more generally with when we' ; re talking about food from immigrant communities. Did you do things with the recipes, with the food to appeal to certain groups? |00:43:55| SENEPHOUMY Well, for our Southeast Asian community, you know, we are we offered we offered party catering and whatnot, and we felt honored because, you know, a bunch of-we were, we were commissioned for, for quite a few weddings. You know, it' ; s a major important, major event in those people' ; s lives. And for us to provide a service and to be a part of that is just something special. So we were well known for that service as well. We didn' ; t really go out of our way or out of our path to, to, to formulate a special game plan to try to reach out to certain groups, you know, we just kept doing what we were doing. |00:44:51| BRODY And then as far as...A lot of times people talk about, you know, quote unquote ethnic food as being, you know, authentic. Did you feel like you...What are your feelings around that concept of " ; authenticity" ; ? |00:45:11| SENEPHOUMY When it comes to ethnic food, I myself, before I even opened up the restaurant, before we even had our first couple of tables at Nalinh Market, I would purposely go seek out places that I knew served food that didn' ; t look like a restaurant because I knew that' ; s where the real food was at. You know, the less fancier places. Most likely that' ; s where you can get the best food, the most authentic food. I, I live in, I live in the, in, in a dichotomy where our food is known to be authentic and expect it to be authentic, but at the same time, to survive in business, you know that you have to...You can' ; t follow that 100 percent if you want the dollars to come in, you know? You have to, you have to adjust your foods to the western palate and make, make-And you guys can' ; t see this, but I' ; m rolling my eyes when I' ; m thinking about it, you know, to make Taco Bell food. You know, you just have to to stay in business. But... |00:46:37| BRODY So for your menu, what did that look like? What did that look like across the board...Changing things for the western palate? Or did it mean to include certain items on the menu that were good sellers? |00:46:50| SENEPHOUMY I wouldn' ; t do it, and that might have been part of my demise. I was stubborn about it. We' ; ve even had internal meetings about this to where, " ; Hey, you know, you have customers coming in wanting orange chicken and stuff like that." ; That' ; s just not us. And I, you know, I would put my foot down and yeah, I could' ; ve made a ton of money making orange chicken and whatever Hunan beef and whatever else. But that' ; s just that' ; s not who we are. That' ; s not the food we make. We' ; ve we become- we' ; ve grown as a business in the last 15 years because of what we do, because we make authentic food from home, from when my mom was 10, 11 years old, cooking for her 11 siblings and her parents in the jungles of Laos. You know, and we just wanted to provide those same foods and we didn' ; t want to stray from it, no matter what cost. I mean, that' ; s what we became known for. So there' ; s, you know, I don' ; t want to stray from the authenticity of what we were doing. |00:48:08| BRODY Earlier you mentioned that you wanted to use food as a tool to educate people, customers about your culture and about, you know, about the food. What are the main messages that you would have, that you did and you do want to convey to the public through your menu? |00:48:28| SENEPHOUMY Um, curiosity leads to exploration. Exploration leads to education, you know, and the education is what just brings people together. You know, the more you know about your neighbor and, and your potential friends and just better off. It' ; s just, it' ; s just going to be better off for everybody, for the world, for society. And, you know, it' ; s just a simple formula. That' ; s all I ever wanted to do with my food. |00:49:03| BRODY To connect with people. |00:49:04| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes. |00:49:07| BRODY Sort of thinking about your customers, both at the Nalinh Market and at Saap Saap, did it end up being a pretty multicultural, multiethnic crowd that you were able to reach? |00:49:22| SENEPHOUMY Yes, very. Yeah, we' ; ve reached just about everybody on the spectrum. I, you know, Nalinh Market, they...It' ; s just well known. Everybody knows them, so word of mouth gets friends of friends from this ethnicity to the next ethnicity coming in. I didn' ; t spend a lot of time there, because I was busy at Saap Saap, but what I experienced at Saap Saap was I had Russian people flying in from Chicago just to eat our food. We' ; d have visitors from Peru who told us that they' ; re in America because they just want to explore the best of what America has to offer. You know, and I' ; m humbled they' ; re eating at our restaurant. Just- wow speechless, right? And, you know, you know, people from Peru, people from Russia. Thai people who are visiting California, flying into California, flying into Texas here to eat our food and Canadians. It' ; s humbling. It' ; s fantastic. It' ; s a, it' ; s a neat experience. |00:50:47| BRODY Yeah, a lot of the interviews that I' ; m doing, I' ; m finding that the restaurants have served as a bridge to other communities and other types of people, and that the food, as you said, has been a really good, you know, impetus for people connecting with each other. Do you have any stories that you want to share about examples of something like that happening? |00:51:14| SENEPHOUMY Oh. Many, many, many that I can' ; t pick out specifically. Like, for example, there' ; s one guy I can think of. He' ; s been to Thailand a couple of times and probably when he was a kid, maybe a teenager. He hasn' ; t eaten that food in forever and after we opened up Saap Saap, he would eat there pretty much on a weekly, weekly basis, sometimes a couple of times a week. It made him travel more to Southeast Asia. Every like six months or so he would, he and his lady would go to a new country in Southeast Asia and come back, tell me all about it. He gets a tattoo written in Lao or Thai. On his arm, and yeah, yeah, it' ; s amazing how, you know, food can just open those doors and touch people in those ways. |00:52:31| BRODY That' ; s a great story. Another pattern that people have noticed is of, and this may be more true of Nalinh Market maybe, of immigrant businesses becoming sort of a hub for the, their own community. Did you find that to be the case? You know, I know you mentioned that the grandmas and their chewing tobacco, but are other examples of ways in which the market itself was a hub. Other examples, you know, sharing information, fliers, community events? |00:53:12| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Whenever there would be a community event like, for example, the big old Lao New Year parties, people would drop off fliers, concert fliers, long lost friends who haven' ; t seen each other in a while, they' ; ll stop by and ask us to pass messages, messages or phone numbers to them |00:53:39| BRODY Wait, really? Like, people would come to shop and say, " ; Oh, if you see so and so..." ; . |00:53:42| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes, exactly. And I' ; m sorry (drinks water) |00:53:49| BRODY So people would come to shop and say to your mom, " ; Have you seen so-and-so in a while?" ; |00:53:56| SENEPHOUMY Because, you know, my mom' ; s older? And, she... the people, the people of her generation from the 80s, as I mentioned earlier, they just know, know everybody who came from Laos through the same situations that she did. Long lost friends, long lost family members who are seeking the other person would drop their phone number and ask my mom, " ; Hey, if you see this person, can you give it, can you give it to them?" ; |00:54:36| BRODY Obviously, before the internet and... |00:54:39| SENEPHOUMY Even during the internet because the older people of our culture, you know, they, they don' ; t know how to navigate the technology that' ; s provided today. So, so our location still to this day would be used as a hub or a meeting point or, and we' ; ve seen this a lot throughout the years, throughout the last two decades where people would be out of work, you know, and they just need a place to hang out to feel like home. And they would do that at Nalinh Market. And sometimes we would we would hire them as an extra hand put them to work. You know, we need our walls, walls painted or whatnot or, or even just outside jobs. If we knew other Asian business owners or not even Asian business owners or customers of other ethnicities. If people were hiring, you know, we could refer them to them. |00:55:42| BRODY It' ; s great. So sort of a neighborhood hub and in your, yeah, community hub as well. |00:55:46| SENEPHOUMY Definitely. And there would be times where people will just hang out there the whole day for eight to ten hours hoping to see whoever they' ; re there to meet up with or just, just for a sense of belonging to a sense of belonging sometimes. |00:56:03| BRODY That' ; s nice. Did people come on the weekends to kind of shop for the week or was it kind of a steady stream? |00:56:12| SENEPHOUMY Oh, you' ; d get more on the weekends. During the week, we would pretty much get a lunch crowd and then just a casual grocery shopper. But before we, before we started cooking food at Nalinh Market, that was like the place to be on the weekend. Like everybody just had to be there for no reason just to see each other' ; s faces and whatnot. |00:56:43| BRODY Yeah, you' ; d run into people, maybe even more so than the Temple or... |00:56:47| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. Yeah, exactly. |00:56:49| BRODY So it' ; s really interesting. So the current landscape, post-COVID, you know, Dallas has been named, you know, " ; 2019 Restaurant City of the Year" ; by Bon Appetit magazine and one of the things that the magazine cited in choosing Dallas was the large number of immigrant neighborhoods and restaurants, that diversity and in choices. Going forward, where do you think... What do you think, in Dallas, the future of Lao food is? |00:57:29| SENEPHOUMY Well, I think going forward, it' ; s going to, the future of Lao food should expand exponentially. I mean, if we go backwards a little bit, you' ; ll see that we may be about 15 years ago, we might have had three Lao restaurants and now there' ; s probably, I' ; m guessing, 20 plus owned, family owned Lao restaurants. So the demand is there and the education of the Lao food is definitely there and reaching out to other communities and in other geographical locations in DFW. So I think that demand will keep keep growing. And I think... I don' ; t know if it' ; ll ever become commonplace, but you' ; ll see more of it. |00:58:30| BRODY Well, with the popularity of Thai food and sort of the similarities. |00:58:34| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes. And. The sophistication of our food is surprisingly growing. Especially in other, other ethnic groups that are non-Laotian. You have American raised individuals who, who know the distinction now between Lao and Thai food, whereas 10 years ago we didn' ; t have that. You know, and they' ; re even, they' ; re pickier nowadays, they' ; re more precise about what kind of Lao food they want. And yeah, you would have never guessed this 10, 15 years ago. It would have blew your mind if, if you ran into this kind of aficionado from, from non Laotian people. |00:59:27| BRODY Yeah, I' ; ve read that, you know, initially people who were trying to serve Lao food would need to sort of label it " ; Thai and Lao" ; or something just to give people a reference point. It sounds like what you' ; re saying is that' ; s no longer the case. |00:59:44| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, definitely. It' ; s, it' ; s still the case to a certain extent. Like even, for example, my restaurant Saap Saap, I got flak from the Laotian community from, from a lot. Hey. So, so I had a sign that said " ; Saap Saap Lao and Thai Cuisine." ; " ; Why are you adding the word ' ; Thai' ; in your restaurant title?" ; Well, not everybody knows what and where Laos is, so I have to do that to attract the people who are familiar with what the Thai culture and Thai food. It' ; s just numbers. They have a bigger population than we do. They' ; ve been here longer than us. People know about them more. So we have to do that. But like I said, the flak I was getting, you know, " ; Hey, if you' ; re really trying to stay pure, if you' ; re really trying to stay authentic and whatnot," ; you know, and I got a lot of trouble or flak for this or a lot of negativity for this. And my response is, " ; Hey, we do this because we have to." ; People who are familiar with the Thai culture. And plus it' ; s not that I' ; m not trying to be a purist. In order to get to that level, we have to find a happy medium, you know? Yeah, we just,, we have to start somewhere. |01:01:19| BRODY Yeah, I mean, it sounds, when we put what you' ; re saying right now together with what you know, the issues of- that we talked about earlier that you could sell tons of orange beef if you know, if that' ; s what you were comfortable selling. That, you know, that walking that fine line between wanting to be authentic to the mission, you know, the vision that you have and also be a thriving business? You know how everyone' ; s line is somewhere. |01:01:49| SENEPHOUMY But then again, to the people who are giving me flak, I respond the same way to most of them " ; Hey, you go open your own Lao restaurant and you could call it and do whatever you want with it." ; |01:02:02| BRODY Oh, so looking back at both, you know, both the businesses and the experiences that you have and continue to have, what are some lessons or reflections on sort of the whole experience as well as Asian food in Dallas in particular? |01:02:23| SENEPHOUMY Well, this ties in to another question you asked me earlier what is the difference between Lao and Thai food? And I tried to explain to you technically about the ingredients, but there' ; s a there' ; s an ingredient that I didn' ; t mention-the people. My mother and I, you know, we were fortunate to spend a lot of our time in in Nebraska, in the Midwest being raised Midwest. You, you pick up on the work ethics, ethic that' ; s just there. It' ; s inherent with that, with that growing up in that part of the country. And, you know, we bring that with us and we bring our, our, just the way we communicate and feel for our neighbors and that, that is a major ingredient that people don' ; t understand in this business, you know, (inaudible). That' ; s such just what you need. And we need more of that, not just in the Lao food restaurants, but just generally speaking. And I think that' ; s where a lot of our popularity came from. You know, we provided that that sense of community and then just, just having an environment where people felt good to be a part of, to be around, and it, it understandably gets easily lost when you' ; re trying to run a business, you know, it' ; s all you' ; re thinking about is numbers and money. But one of my philosophies have always been, you know, don' ; t worry about the money, just take care of the important things first. And the money will come. If you' ; re good at what you do and you like what you do, the money will come. |01:04:34| BRODY A good spirit to have. Well, those are some really great stories and really interesting reflections. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you about that you' ; d like to share? |01:04:46| SENEPHOUMY Probably too much that we don' ; t have time for. A lot of...Since, since this is supposed to be archived for a for a cultural influence and whatnot, a lot of the questions that were missing would probably pertain to my mother. And, you know, she' ; s a big part of this story. The work ethic that that lady is, her work ethic is untouchable. And it' ; s just crazy. People say the same thing about her work ethic all the time, and it' ; s just a history where she came from during the war and being in the refugee camps before, before coming to America. And this is a lot of other Laotian families going through the same thing. But, the character that, that the character that was instilled in her, you know, just the history in the past of coming from Laos, the way she did and the poverty and the way she had to raise her kids here in a foreign land, not speaking the language and without the education. It just it lit a fire in her and pushed her to, you know, work with whatever God given tools that you have and just make the best of it. Yeah, so I mean, if, if, if you have some questions leading towards that, I' ; ll be happy to answer. But regarding my mother, but you know, if you' ; re open to conversation with her or details, that' ; s an available option as well. I' ; m just afraid things might get lost in translation. |01:06:57| BRODY Yeah. Tell me about her journey over here. How old was she? And she already had children at the point that she... |01:07:03| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, she had three kids to take care of at the time. I' ; m guessing she was. Let' ; s see, we came about ' ; 80, ' ; 81. 63. What' ; s that... Born in ' ; 61, ' ; 81, 20 years. |01:07:24| BRODY Oh, yeah, yeah. |01:07:26| SENEPHOUMY Twenty years old. You know, in a refugee camp... |01:07:33| BRODY Where was the refugee camp? |01:07:35| SENEPHOUMY Somewhere in Thailand. On the border of Laos and Thailand? Yeah. |01:07:39| BRODY So was she separated from her parents at that point? |01:07:43| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes. So her parents stayed in Laos. She, when she was in the refugee camp, her- some of the family got split up as well. I think I think we got separated from my older brother. He ended up going to Australia because I think at the time there' ; s about like six or eight options where you could get deported to right or imported to go to and... My dad' ; s side of the family ended up going to Australia. My mom and our were immediate family came here to America. I think my older brother got lost in the mix somehow, and he ended up staying with my dad' ; s side of the family in Australia. You know, tough life. He had to struggle with that growing up without his real family over there. And...So currently, they' ; re there, the Australia side of the family there... They also own four restaurants in the Sydney area. |01:09:02| BRODY Oh, really? |01:09:02| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. |01:09:03| BRODY All Laotian? |01:09:05| SENEPHOUMY Yes. But they' ; re more, they' ; re more of a Thai restaurant because they have to be. They' ; re in Sydney. So, you know, they have to, they have to cater to that crowd. But I' ; ve seen their menu and they do authentic Lao foods as well. Yeah, but they' ; re very busy over there and... |01:09:30| BRODY So your brother is involved with those restaurants? |01:09:32| SENEPHOUMY Oh, no, no, he isn' ; t. But my dad' ; s side of the family is my dad' ; s brothers and sisters are in Sydney. |01:09:43| BRODY So your mom sounds like a pretty remarkable woman, so |01:09:48| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, yeah. And I' ; ve been told, you know, I don' ; t. I don' ; t realize it myself until I step back a little bit, you know? See things from a third person perspective, but it' ; s like mostly everybody I run into, says, " ; Xay. She' ; s the hardest working I' ; ve ever seen." ; From teenagers to adults, you know senior adults in their 80s. They just man, you just got to be around her for at least an hour or two. It' ; s, it' ; s, you know, you have people like that anymore nowadays. |01:10:29| BRODY She sounds amazing. How long was she in the refugee camp there in Thailand? |01:10:35| SENEPHOUMY I' ; m not sure,. |01:10:35| BRODY Roughly. |01:10:36| SENEPHOUMY I' ; m not sure exactly. Maybe anywhere between six months to a year. |01:10:40| BRODY And then the time came for it, and then she came directly to Houston. In your understanding? |01:10:46| SENEPHOUMY Yes. But before that, if we were rewind a little. I later learned in life that when she was in Laos, prior to going to the refugee camp, she was actually working as a nurse under the UN, under the UN umbrella. So she was patching up soldiers and civilians and whatnot, and she couldn' ; t have been any more than what, 17 through 20 at the time. And I think one of the one of the major factors that got her into that position was a sponsor family here in the Houston area. There was a, there was a doctor and his wife, and I think she was in the medical field as well. But they, there was like some educational child sponsorship program back then. You know, they' ; re probably like the UNICEF commercials that you see on TV nowadays. My mom happened to fortunately be the recipient of one of those programs. And, you know, she' ; s always kept in touch with that family and I to this day have never met him. I wish I could have. He' ; s already passed. You know, I know, I think I think she felt like she really owed it to their family to keep pushing. You know, it' ; s probably what is a part of that fire, you know. |01:12:27| BRODY So, they sponsored her to come here? |01:12:31| SENEPHOUMY I, I' ; m assuming they probably through, that program, helped her become a nurse. And then since she was working under the U.N. umbrella, made it easier for us to get to America through the refugee camps. |01:12:55| BRODY That' ; s an incredible story and thank you so much for sharing all of that. Well, I really appreciate your time today and look forward to learning more about your family' ; s experiences. Thank you so much. |01:13:09| SENEPHOUMY It was my pleasure. I hope I got whatever information, you know. I just hope I answered most of your questions as best as I was able to. |01:13:22| BRODY It was wonderful. Thank you very much. Thank you. |01:13:25| SENEPHOUMY The pleasure' ; s mine. Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Xay Senephoumy, February 18, 2022
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking Lao
Grocer, Asian American
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2022-02-18
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Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Wai Chhen
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5.4 Interview with Wai Chhen, April 26, 2022 2021oh002_di_011 01:39:49 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Wai Chhen Betsy Brody wav oh-audio-dig-chhen_wai_20220430.wav 1:|18(13)|38(8)|51(15)|66(8)|85(10)|97(11)|108(5)|120(13)|134(10)|145(8)|159(11)|175(1)|186(10)|197(5)|207(13)|218(8)|230(4)|240(8)|251(2)|266(5)|278(10)|293(8)|304(7)|315(1)|326(11)|337(1)|348(11)|365(1)|375(12)|387(1)|401(1)|413(12)|425(7)|441(7)|453(4)|470(1)|482(5)|495(13)|506(6)|515(14)|525(8)|533(17)|543(15)|557(4)|569(1)|582(10)|593(4)|609(9)|618(3)|628(8)|641(3)|652(11)|663(3)|675(12)|689(2)|700(1)|712(15)|725(9)|738(5)|750(15)|766(9)|778(15)|793(14)|805(11)|817(11)|834(12)|845(11)|860(1)|871(8)|885(10)|897(11)|908(10)|919(3)|930(5)|942(11)|954(6)|965(13)|978(3)|991(6)|1004(3)|1019(10)|1032(8)|1045(12)|1058(3)|1067(7)|1079(11)|1090(12)|1102(9)|1115(3)|1131(4)|1144(5)|1158(3)|1171(13)|1183(10)|1195(12)|1208(14)|1222(1)|1234(6)|1248(14) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/159029 Aviary audio 5 Introduction Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Texas--History 37 Arriving in Dallas from Cambodia Cambodia ; Dallas ; Khmer Rouge ; Parkland hospital ; Thailand ; Vietnam War 87 Career as a chef/ Thoughts on hospitality chef ; cooking ; cooking show ; Dallad ; hospitality ; Julia Child ; Martin Yan ; representation ; restaurant 281 Growing up eating food with blended Asian flavors Anthony Bourdain ; Asia ; Asian flavors ; bitter melon ; Cambodia ; Chinese food ; cooking ; fish sauce ; respect ; Southeast Asian ; street food ; Thai 678 Culinary school and training Art Institute of Dallas ; brigade system ; Charlie Palmer ; chef ; Compass Group ; country club ; culinary school ; French ; hotel ; Scott Romano 1153 Business and Industry Dining chef ; Compass Group ; cooking ; dishwasher ; French ; front of the house ; mentor ; naan ; training ; wok 1852 Being creative as a chef chef ; chicken fried steak ; creativity ; ethnic food ; veterans ; Wolfgand Puck 2265 Growing up in Dallas during the 1980s Asian ; Dallas ; family style ; food ; Garland 2735 Decision not to specialize in Asian cuisine Asian flavors ; Charlie Palmer ; chef ; culture ; innovation ; risk ; traditional 3290 Asian restaurants in the Dallas food landscape Asian flavors ; Asian restaurant ; chef ; Dallas ; fine dining ; innovation ; mom and pop ; upscale 3557 Martin Yan and representation of Asian chefs Asian ; Asian chefs ; celebrity chef ; chefs ; Chinese cooking ; cooking show ; Martin Yan ; PBS 3753 Food and culture chef ; culture ; ethnicity ; food ; fried rice ; mentor ; tradition 3949 " ; Mom and Pop" ; restaurants vs. " ; Chef driven" ; concepts adventurous ; Anthony Bourdain ; business ; challenge ; chef ; educate ; education ; expand ; expansion ; food ; growth ; mom and pop ; training 4466 Non-Asian chefs incorporating Asian flavors appropriation ; Asian flavors ; authentic ; authenticity ; chefs ; ingredients ; respect 5002 Influence of Anthony Bourdain Anthony Bourdain ; Asian flavors ; celebrity chef ; chef ; culinary school ; culture ; food ; mom and pop ; respect 5630 Impact of social media and online review sites on the restaurant industry chef ; influencer ; negative reviews ; restaurant critic ; restaurant reviewer ; restaurant reviews ; reviews ; social media ; tipping ; Yelp |00:00:05| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is April 30th, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Wai Chhen. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; All right. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming in for an interview. |00:00:36| Chhen Thanks for having me. |00:00:37| Brody Let' ; s start with just a little background. Where and when were you born? |00:00:40| Chhen I was born in Dallas in 1980. So it' ; s kind of a product of Parkland baby, I guess you would say what I am. |00:00:52| Brody Tell me about how you, how your family ended up in Dallas. |00:00:56| Chhen So, my mom is an immigrant for Cambodia and my dad is as well-my biological father is as well. It was during the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnam War. And when, you know, the fighting happened, everyone fled to Thailand. And from Thailand they all immigrated here to Dallas through sponsorships. |00:01:17| Brody Do you have any siblings? |00:01:18| Chhen I have an older sister and I have a half sibling younger sister as well. |00:01:26| Brody So tell me about your career. What do you do? |00:01:30| Chhen I am a chef for Compass Group USA. The division that I work for is called Eurest Dining. |00:01:37| Brody What was your path to this career? |00:01:40| Chhen I guess you know. A lot of it comes from just when I was younger, watching Martin Yan, watching Julia Child. And I told my mom, like, I really wanted to cook. Just watching him make dishes, it was just like, " ; Wow, this guy created something out of raw ingredients." ; And my mom was always been a good, very, very good cook. And so I needed money when I was in high school. She was like, " ; Well, well, the way you get money is you you need to go work." ; So my mom' ; s best friend owned a restaurant. It was off of like Park Lane and 75 area. It was called " ; Texas Broasted Chicken." ; And then on the other side of it had a Chinese restaurant, too. That' ; s all his. So during the summers, I would work, you know, washing his dishes, prepping, you know, making fried chicken and working the wok station. And from there, I just really enjoyed it, even though my mom was like, " ; No, this cannot be what you want to do." ; But I followed my passion and my love and it' ; s kind of one of those crazy things that I' ; m not a doctor, I' ; m not a lawyer. And I went with a path that' ; s more- it' ; s a blue collar job wearing a white collar shirt, is probably the best way to put it. |00:02:57| Brody What did you like about it? What, what made you feel like you wanted to be in this kind of a career? |00:03:04| Chhen I think a lot of it is just hospitality is probably the best way to put it. When people come over to your house, you always want to serve good food, and just being able to put something that you put a lot of care or thought and it' ; s cooking is intimate in its, in its own way. And I wanted to be able to share that, whether it' ; s my mom' ; s recipes or something that I' ; ve, you know, as I' ; ve worked in the industry and grown something like homogolated into my own concept. I want to be able to share those things and just watch people go, " ; Wow, that was awesome." ; And just watching people enjoy because food food' ; s universal, right? Everyone has to eat. Everyone has to enjoy something together. And it' ; s the most common thing. We all have to drink water. We all have to eat, might as well eat great food. Best way to put it. |00:03:59| Brody What is your philosophy of hospitality? |00:04:03| Chhen Well, a lot of times people say customers are always right, but there' ; s...It isn' ; t. And hospitality to me, it' ; s about the people. The people, the guests. But it' ; s the overall experience. So you, you- hospitality is about being welcomed somewhere. It doesn' ; t, I don' ; t care what race, gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation. That- none of that should matter. Hospitality is about feeling welcome no matter where you go. And that' ; s how I feel. Food is- food is hospitality regarding that. No one cares about any of those things. It' ; s just about eating good food. |00:04:41| Brody You mentioned your mom was a good cook. |00:04:42| Chhen Yes. |00:04:43| Brody What kind of dishes did you grow up eating? |00:04:46| Chhen So I was lied to a lot when I was a kid. In the aspect of, you know, you grow up in a Chinese household thinking the food that you' ; ve been eating is Chinese food. But it wasn' ; t. It was Cambodian or Vietnamese or that that influence from the area that my mom grew up, which is in Phnom Phen. And that place was like a melting pot of immigrants as well in Cambodia. You had the Vietnamese, Laotians, Thai, in you know, even Cambodian dishes into all the Chinese dishes. Mainly, a lot of them were from the Canton or Guangzhou area that immigrated there. So all these dishes my mom made, I thought was Chinese. But it wasn' ; t it! It was Cambodian or Vietnamese or whatever it was going to be. So. She made all this, whether it' ; s like a stir fry or noodle dish. And and I would grow up and going to eat at a restaurants and go, " ; This isn' ; t... Why are we going to...why is this guy is serving this at a Vietnamese restaurant? This is Chinese food." ; Mom was like, " ; Oh, no, it' ; s Vietnamese." ; You know, so you, you tend to learn the dishes that my mom made were literally a blend. And it' ; s really cool now as an adult and as a chef, you research and I' ; ve been researching like kind of where these origins come from and there either a mix of everything, whether it' ; s from a Chinese origin or it' ; s from Thailand or it' ; s, you know, ethnically Cambodian. And it' ; s really cool because for me, who identify as more Chinese, most mainland Chinese will have never eaten this stuff or have never experienced it. And so my mom would make dishes that I had, like were like fish sauce based, because it' ; s a Southeast Asian thing, mainlanders don' ; t traditionally eat those type of like ingredients. So it was kind of cool, she would make...Oh God, the best way to put it was these like stuffed bitter melons with ground pork in it as a soup. It' ; s a South, it' ; s a Southeast Asian thing. It' ; s not a Chinese dish. And so growing up thinking that was- it wasn' ; t. So it was pretty cool to kind of just, you know, learn what my mom has taught me regarding just the basics things. Like every, every dish, stir fry has got ginger, scallion, garlic in it. And that builds the foundation of the flavor that you' ; re looking to do more traditional Chinese food and just learning from there. It was crazy that I didn' ; t think my mom was that great of a chef, like not even as a chef, but just as a cook. But the foundation she laid down is exactly what goes on in restaurants, exactly what goes on in Asian cuisine that people do. And so when I make Asian food at work, people are always like " ; Wow, it tastes authentic." ; Well, it is, because that' ; s how I was taught. And I kept it that way. |00:07:51| Brody So do you think those labels matter? You know, like, obviously, each country is very proud of its own cuisine and its own style. And the fact that you ate and enjoyed all of those things from your mom' ; s kitchen without really necessarily knowing their, you know, history or where they came from. You know, what do you think about the notion of, you know, the strict sort of separations in maybe the restaurant world between this type of food versus this type of food? |00:08:23| Chhen You know, I think as with that, it comes to a certain point where I always think that if you' ; re looking for like Thai food or if you' ; re looking for a Thai dish, it needs to be essentially the flavors of that. You can modernize it. Have a great time with it. But when you eat it, you want to be like, " ; Holy cow. It tastes like, you know, this type of Pad Thai or I had Thai basil chicken and it tastes just like it, but it' ; s a cool way of plating, it' ; s a modern way of doing it." ; I think that' ; s where nuances get lost is sometimes if people push it too far forward, you lose what its natural origin is supposed to be. A lot of food comes from super humble origins, whether it' ; s street food or something that' ; s homemade, and when you lose that, sometimes you lose identity. And food, a lot is someone' ; s culture and their identity. And if you, you know, bastardize that as, as like you did that culture who for hundreds of years have or whatever generations have kept doing it. You want to pay homage to it. I think that' ; s kind of where food and culinary world sometimes needs to kind of slow down to that part, is you pay homage to it, but you also want to move it forward. And I think we, as chefs, sometimes lose that thought and because we always want to be the next big thing, someone wants to be on a TV show or someone wants to be, you know, competing somewhere. But, you know, sometimes keeping things simple is probably the best way. |00:10:01| Brody Do you mean, sort of each type of cuisine has sort of its essence? |00:10:06| Chhen Yes. Yes. You want you know, when you know, when we make or even like Korean food, for instance, you know, there' ; s generically in there food sometimes there' ; s like sesame oil, there' ; s garlic, there' ; s pears or anything in their marinades that' ; s essentially in there. Have it in there, but don' ; t take it out so far where you don' ; t taste that ethnicity' ; s flavors. And I think that' ; s kind of where the nuances, you know, when we do certain dishes, it' ; s like, did you know there was fish sauce in it? And people like, " ; Oh, I didn' ; t know that." ; And it' ; s just paying homage to that and digging more and researching more of that particular food, eating more. I think that' ; s kind of where, you know, Anthony Bourdain said it best. It' ; s just kind of like respect it. Respect the food. And when you travel and you eat that, you understand where you see more. You understand like the flavors, what they put into it. It' ; s fine to modernize it, but, you know, just really know that what' ; s truly already in it. And don' ; t take it where you' ; re not respecting that food anymore or that cuisine or culture. |00:11:18| Brody So you' ; re coming at this from a trained chef perspective. Tell me about your education and your path that you took to that. |00:11:27| Chhen I started when I was 14, truly as a, as a dishwasher at my mom' ; s friend' ; s restaurant. And then, you know, prepping, just learning the basics of...Funny thing was they taught me to butcher chicken and throw it in this salted water. I never knew that they were brining it. They' ; re like, " ; Oh, just throw it in this big bucket of saltwater." ; But you' ; re literally brining. I didn' ; t know the terminology back then. When you were young, you were just told what to do, right? And so as I grew into that path of wanting to be a chef, I also wanted to learn terminology, because in any modern kitchen, it' ; s always French based terminology and French based ways of doing things. And so I went to the Art Institute of Dallas. And just learned and worked my way through there. Getting yelled at, screamed at, pans thrown at, you know? I don' ; t think it was as harsh, but some of the chefs really wanted during the training to experience like, " ; Hey, this is what happens in the real world. It' ; s what happens in the kitchens. Like we can be as sugarcoated, as nice as can be, but just know that this will happen to you once you get in there. I' ; m just giving the smallest taste of that." ; And to learn that the kitchen is more military based foundation. That it' ; s a brigade system. The chef is essentially the general and everyone else is just being told what to do, and your sous chefs are your sergeants or colonels or anybody below. And they- you get into that thought and so to mentally prepare myself to go, " ; Okay, I' ; m going to take this path that' ; s grueling and long hours." ; And knowing that it is a hard-working career. I kept going because I really wanted it, I loved it. I loved that thrive, that energy that goes on with it. And so, you know, graduated culinary school and then started working in just, you know, like the country clubs or other restaurants and just working my way around. And then I had this great opportunity to work for Ferrari' ; s Italian Villa in Addison and trained under James and his...And then I guess it said Stefano Secchi, who' ; s like a big-time chef now in New York, and that guy' ; s amazing. And just to kind of learn Italian food. I wanted to know origins of...What, how pasta is made, where good risottos are made. And, you know, I was very thankful that I had that opportunity to work with them and for them and just learning like Italian secrets that people tell you that' ; s in their food. And from there, just kind of work my way up to beginning to work for Charlie Palmer, a big-name chef, and work under fine dining and learning that that type of preparation where it' ; s like everything, it' ; s meticulous, everything is time consuming, everything is measured, everything is...And you learn all that. It was awesome. And to work under a chef who very passionate about his food, Chef Scott Romano, he' ; s one of those chefs that, you know, he' ; s a New Yorker, so we could all say that I' ; m very glad he spent that time and really beat it into me, of just the quality, respect the food. This is what you need to do. And I cook the way I cook now because of that man. He has made me ten times a better chef than I thought I would ever be. I think I take that and I instill into my cooks today. And I still cook in that same way of how he got on to me. But, you know, from there it was kind of like, all right, next path in my career, what is it that I really wanted to learn? And it was hotels. Mainly in the aspect of mass production because fine dining is about, you know, smaller production but more intimate. And everything about hotels is about mass production. Feeding the masses. How do you get that part done? And that was grueling, too. When you' ; re there from five in the morning to 2:00 in the morning of the next day, and you' ; re learning that...I got to peel all these cases of asparagus, but then count individually what an average case of asparagus is. Because when you do plate ups, you' ; re like, " ; Alright, cool. I got 900 plates. Each plate gets three asparagus. I need this amount, 27, whatever, 2700 asparagus." ; And you literally would spend time counting, and you plate and you go, " ; Okay, cool. This is how many here? How many there?" ; And you would on your sheet pans, meticulously separate out that each sheet pan has 25 filet mignons on it. And you know, you have it all, so when you stage it to fire it and cook it, you know that you could plate 25 filet mignons each time you keep going. And it' ; s an awesome thing to learn that because then you go, " ; Okay, I could batch cook these things, holding temps. I think that a lot of the skill sets from a hotel is amazing because you know, you need to cook chicken to 165, but because that chicken holds-sits in a hot box for at least 30 minutes, you need to cook...you can cook it to like 155, so it' ; s a little bit lower, but then as it keeps sitting and cooking, that temperature rises. And it' ; s just those things, it, it' ; s a learning trade. It' ; s something that I apply still to this day because knowing that, yes, you need it- chicken can' ; t be dry and that' ; s mainly the reasons, and...You' ; ve got to that path where, you know, as an executive sous chef of the Renaissance Hotel, I got to, opportunity to, with Compass Group. And I told myself I wanted to, to work under one more person. Kind of give myself that. Like one other person to train me and another skill set and so forth. But I went to the interview, the the chef interviewed me, he was like, " ; Well, you' ; re, you' ; re already doing the executive chef job without the title. How about this? We' ; re going to chef test you for an executive chef role and see what happens. And here I am, 12 years later, still working for Compass Group. And that, the chef, Mark Simmons, he' ; s still with us. He' ; s our, he' ; s our division chef now. And that man again, without his, on the chef side, growing me and teaching me and showing me how to open a restaurant, how to prepare, how to stage things and, without his like leadership of like, " ; Hey, do what you' ; re passionate about, have a good time with it." ; And I...never, again not be who I am today. It' ; s like he taught me more of the business side and the opening side and...That no one would ever show. Right? It' ; s kind of one of those things that I have been very blessed with great opportunities. And these people took the time and care to show me so that I' ; ll be successful. And I am successful today because of those, what would you say? Like not even just mentorships, but just what they' ; ve invested in me? That' ; s probably the best way to put it, is that their investment into me has been my way of repaying them back to be as successful as I can. |00:19:12| Brody That' ; s great. How would you characterize your cooking today? |00:19:17| Chhen Ooh, you know, that' ; s a, that' ; s very unique because with what I do with what' ; s called BNI, which is " ; Business and Industry Dining" ; is that you have to be kind of a jack of all trades in food. And the great thing, because of Compass Group' ; s vast knowledge of chefs and everything like that you, get to train with people who are inherently specialized in certain cuisines, I think some are very good with Indian cuisine where we could make our own naan bread from scratch- we have our own tandoori grills- and we' ; ll do trainings on that. And I' ; ll train people on like the wok stations because again those are inherent skills that not everyone gets to have. But you know, I' ; d say mine is probably more New American, French, Italian and Asian. Just because we have to be diverse in our food, because the dining community wants to really eat diverse food, especially if you' ; re in an environment where you sit down and you, you know, you' ; re at a complex every single day that you work, you don' ; t want to eat the same food. Oh yeah, you inherently you could go get a burger somewhere, a pizza, but that' ; s always gonna be there. But because of our...We feed, in our own way, a static population, we want to be able to keep offering something that' ; s different every single day, whether it' ; s Indian, whether it' ; s Greek, it' ; s, you know, Thai or Chinese or Korean and...that' ; s what I want to kind of give everyone is a taste of a little bit of everything. So when you do go out, let' ; s say you' ; re not comfortable with something, you' ; re now in an environment where you' ; re not, " ; Okay. I have no idea what this you know, gojuchang marinated pork belly is, but at work it was fricking amazing." ; So I' ; m, in my own way. I' ; m essentially educating people to, " ; Hey, go try this. You tried it at work, at where you work and it' ; s great. Go." ; Because that' ; s kind of where I got that inspiration from. And that' ; s kind of where I see my my food is to be is just opening doors for people to just try something different. I will never serve you bad food. I' ; m not perfect, but I' ; ll always try to give you good food that kind of give you that in to something that you' ; re not used to or something you haven' ; t tried. And that' ; s kind of where I see kind of where my food goes. Like I won' ; t say have specialized in one thing. I just try to specialize in everything, but master of none. |00:21:44| Brody Well, it sounds like your whole path...I mean, how long did that take you from the time you were 14 to to where you' ; re at now? |00:21:53| Chhen I' ; m 41, 42, 41. It took a while and it took you know, like I said earlier, it' ; s like it' ; s an investment step that people have put in me. And I don' ; t ever want to let any of them down because. I carry their time that they put in me. I want to show them that...that I' ; m not failing at anything. And that, you know, from like Chef Armstrong, who is a chef from culinary school, she is essentially like a godmother to me. And, you know, the industry beats you up because it' ; s hard. It' ; s long hours. And I' ; m like, " ; Chef, I don' ; t know what to do. This is this is crazy." ; And she' ; s, you know, religious in her own way. Not...I' ; m not. But she' ; s always, you know, reading things from the Bible or something or verses that I' ; m like, " ; Oh, wow, that really means a lot." ; And, you know, I' ; ve always had that great opportunity where for some odd reason there' ; s always been women who spend more time investing into me, into my own success, and just being able to show them that like, " ; Hey, what you did for me...I' ; m not like letting you down." ; I want to make sure that what you taught me will always carry on and like one of my mentors. Her name is Laura Gigl, and what she taught me the most is like when I transitioned from working hotel and into working for Compass, was her saying is " ; You cannot manage from a cutting board." ; And that was when, for the longest time, everywhere I went it was like, you need to be the best cook, need to be the best chef, but it was never to be the best leader or best manager. And I think that' ; s kind of where that path, where she took the time to invest into and to me and with all of the district managers and managers I have now, it was " ; No longer do I need you to prove that you can cook. I need you to become a leader and grow you to be a better manager and leader." ; I think that' ; s kind of where my path has become now. I' ; ve seen myself more as I don' ; t need to be the best at making this flavor, but I can coach this person or train this other chef to understand the nuances of particular cuisine and grow them and lead them. And that was an amazing thing to finally go, " ; Okay, cool, I' ; ll cook what I need to." ; But the best part of making any restaurant really successful is the business management side. Yeah, it' ; s great. You can make great food, but if your food cost is ungodly or your labor cost is ungodly, you' ; re losing money. You' ; re not going to make any money. I think that' ; s kind of one of the great things with working in this industry is you learn so much more about the business. And the food. Yes, the food is there. It' ; s a close number two. But you you will always be able to utilize those skills no matter where you go into. I guess you say you you decided to go to another career path or whatever you want to do, those inherent skill sets of money management is included any industry you do and it' ; s kind of cool where it' ; s like, " ; Hey, train this cook to do that job, why are you butchering that chicken?" ; You know, like Johns' ; s just standing there, teach him how to butcher your chicken for you. And so it was that it was really, truly not having to prove myself to be the best in that situation, the best cook, the best of the flavors. It' ; s to make sure that I am around and it' ; s really awesome where she took me to more to the front of the house side. And that' ; s very rare for chefs to inherently take care of the front of the house and back of the house. But it was to look at, " ; Hey, this napkin dispenser, why is it dusty?" ; You' ; re like, you' ; re like, " ; Okay, the customers see this." ; You know, yeah, the food might be great, but everything' ; s dirty around you, so you want to make sure it' ; s all clean. So it' ; s those things. Those things that you would never think that a chef has to learn even more so. Oh, but that' ; s how you learn it, because you' ; re off the cutting board is you now go, " ; Okay, cool. That oatmeal is dry. And even though it normally comes in the kitchen, you can now see it and you can see like. Like flows of how food becomes where...You see, like... Like how people order food. It might take a little bit longer. You can now send someone to kind of either help out or do whatever. It' ; s, it' ; s one of those things. You become your own conductor in your own, in your own facility in a restaurant and you be able to make those changes. That' ; s kind of a great thing with that type of learning that you' ; ll never get anywhere. I think the culinary industry or the hospitality side of it is like everyone wants to be the best chef, lets people forget that, hey, there' ; s another side of that you need to learn. |00:27:06| Brody Yeah, it sounds like I mean, from what you' ; re saying, you had some really excellent mentors, but also you never stopped trying to learn the different facets of the industry, which is different than, I think, you know, a celebrity chef or somebody like that that' ; s focused on sort of the, you know... |00:27:27| Chhen Very niche. Very, very...You know, like one thing. And I think that' ; s kind of where it' ; s very cool in the aspect that I got to learn all these things, that it was an opportunity that I...that doesn' ; t stop. Everything changes and I think it was real great with working for Compass is that because every property we open every property, it' ; s so different for the next. There is no cookie cutter. Yes, some things are the same because our inherent standards are the same- " ; Hey, these are the things that we have to do." ; But it is like, " ; Hey, this place is more funky and cool. Let' ; s design our menus of food to be funky and cool to fit the clientele that' ; s in there." ; And you adapt and so the coolest thing you adapt to the people who work in that particular building and you adapt to the things that they will or will not eat. And then you kind of work around your....I guess the best way to put it we' ; re our own...What' ; s that saying? Chefs are very good mimickers or imitators of things. We, we try to do everything to kind of blend in, so you can always have a good time with it and working for Compass has afforded that where you become that and you...You learn what your guest wants and you also be able to give kind of what they want to eat. But it' ; s about the people. I think in the end you come down to it, Betsy, is that in the end, it' ; s not about me. It really isn' ; t about the chef or me. It' ; s truly about the people that I work for or work with. You know, I think a lot of people always forget about thanking their dishwasher. Without him or her, you have no plates. You have no spoons. You have no necessities to cook with. And I' ; ve always, you know, started for me, starting in that position I' ; ve always respected the dishwasher. You treat everyone the same. And I think my success isn' ; t me. It' ; s my staff. They' ; re the ones who' ; ve made me successful, and they are the ones who need to be as much in the spotlight as I am. And that' ; s a great thing with working where I' ; m at is because I let my staff shine. I kind of stand in the background like, " ; Hey, how' ; s it going?" ; I' ; ll wave to the guests, but they' ; re the ones cooking, the ones that see you, chit-chat with you. They' ; re the ones that know that John likes his eggs over medium, you know, with him just walking up. It' ; s them. They' ; re the superstars. I' ; m just the one who is the conductor and training them. And I think that' ; s kind of where I see myself is that they need to be more of the spotlight, you know, and we always see it, right? TV or any articles about the chef, about the chef, but the chef would never be successful without the staff. And the staff are the true superstars. They' ; re the ones who work for you because they' ; re passionate about your, your creations and your dreams. And you instill that. I think that' ; s kind of why chefs are successful. The good ones are- is because they have that inherent skill set to train their staff, to live that passion and live that dream. And that' ; s what has made great chefs greater, and people who fail is because they don' ; t, they can' ; t, they didn' ; t know how to transfer that passion to their, to their staff. |00:30:52| Brody That' ; s super interesting. And it makes me think. Earlier you said you talked about the sort of military aspect of working in a kitchen, especially a large kitchen like that. How creative do you feel, within that structure, a chef can be? |00:31:10| Chhen You know, I think anywhere you go, I guess my creativity...the creativity goes as much as you want to, as far as you want to take it. You know, with my chef and my bosses, they' ; re like, " ; No, be as creative as you want. Here' ; s this box. It' ; s pretty massive. Don' ; t step out of that box, you will get in trouble. But the meantime, you have this massive box. Do whatever want. You can in this massive box." ; And I do. And it' ; s just taking these different things that we can do and showcase the fact that business dining is no longer for the chef who is retiring or where a chef goes and dies. You know, for like, several of our chefs are from like, came from big name people, working for Wolfgang Puck. I' ; m coming from Charlie Palmer. Another guy worked for Chef Uno and Tiffany Derry. And we' ; re all there together with these great skill sets and we' ; re like, " ; Hey, we get to go home." ; I have my weekends off, have holidays. And it' ; s not that cafeteria, who' ; s scooping these canned beans. We' ; re using fresh ingredients. We make our own stuff in-house and we get to have great time, but we get to go home...in a normal time, but we' ; ll never get that spotlight? I think that' ; s kind of the one thing that working in this part of the industry is we' ; ll never be a TV show. We' ; ll never be in a magazine. I' ; ll never get rated five stars. But at the exact same time, I' ; m making the normal restaurant world work harder because I get to offer you an amazing meal for like, half the cost. And people don' ; t seem to understand that. It' ; s like...You know, but we also do a lot of great things for like the community that people again don' ; t hear because you just think, " ; Oh, it' ; s just business dining." ; But like all of our seafood' ; s all sustainable, our chicken' ; s like hormone free or antibiotic free. We compost. While we work with our partners to do all those different things. We support your local farms, but again, you don' ; t... you' ; ll never hear about it because it' ; s not publicized. People think that' ; s where you go to die. You know, we' ; re rejected chefs, but it' ; s not. You get to do amazing things and play with so much cool stuff. And, you know, our bosses just like, " ; Just go and have fun." ; |00:33:31| Brody Is that because of the scale? That they can- the sort of the economy of scale? |00:33:36| Chhen Correct. It really is a lot of economy of scale, but it' ; s also where it' ; s really cool, where when we partner with a particular brand, you know, they might have their own corporate initiatives they want to hit and we are partners with them regarding those situations where, like if you want to become a so-called like Fitwel building, where it' ; s about sustainability, composting, and wellness, we will be your partner in helping you develop that because a lot of companies, they want wellness to be their big thing or sustainability to be a big thing. And we partner with them and and make sure all that happens and it' ; s really cool. And I learned like, oh, my God, you' ; re you want to do this for your wellness? We have dieticians in our company to help us hit certain dietary needs or caloric needs or gluten free or anything. So that' ; s really cool. When you come into some of our units or properties where you' ; ll see a lot of water, it' ; s always wellness driven first and then indulgence will also come along with it. But I think everywhere you go, it' ; s should always be a balance, right? Not everyone- everyone has that choice to eat healthier. Like when you want that burger, you' ; re going to get the burger, whether I want to stop you or not. And so our job is to give you a balance of both from wellness to indulgence and sustainability and so forth. |00:35:01| Brody And most of the people that eat at your restaurant are people who work in that building. Right? So but it' ; s not restricted to just people who work there. |00:35:12| Chhen So it' ; s kind of interesting. For the, for this property that I' ; m at where it' ; s my first time, I' ; ve been told it' ; s open to the public. It' ; s not like publicized that it is, but you can just walk in and just enjoy a meal, have a good time, or even have drinks or a cocktail during the happy hour. And it' ; s kind of the first time in my, in my own career, in a long time that I' ; m feeding more of a public, you know, situation where someone wearing suits is standing next to someone wearing flip flops, and then there' ; s children and then you' ; re like, " ; Okay, I never thought how to develop a children' ; s menu in 12 years." ; Here I am offering grilled cheeses and chicken quesadillas for these particular guests that we never thought we' ; d serve." ; But then, it' ; s funny. It' ; s like, it' ; s like the adults are " ; Okay. It' ; s got grilled cheese. I want to get that. Or a chicken." ; It' ; s like, " ; Those are for kids." ; But you know, it' ; s kind of cool. It' ; s just being able to feed all the demographics and different age groups and see what they eat and. It' ; s been, it' ; s been, like, a crazy ride. And I don' ; t want to get off it. It' ; s a journey that is really cool. And you learn where....Like people always think that manufacturing is always meat and potatoes, but it' ; s really not. And that people think that, " ; Oh...those guys are just the chicken fried steaks," ; but they' ; re inherently not. It' ; s really wild where you learn, again, different, different properties have different groups. And one of them that I used to work at was Bell Helicopter, out in Hurst. And when I got there, they' ; re like, " ; Man, these guys are just chicken fried steaks and meatloaf. Don' ; t ever do anything ethnic." ; And I was like, " ; I' ; m going to try it and see what happens." ; And lo and behold, it was that older generation that ate all the ethnic food because they were stationed overseas in Japan, Korea, or they fought in Vietnam or whatever may be. And they' ; re like, " ; I haven' ; t had this since I was stationed in Okinawa." ; You' ; re like, " ; Are you kidding me?" ; And so you see, the line of all the cultural cuisines was always the older generations that work at the plant, which you thought were the meat and potatoes. But they' ; re not. They were the ones who were open to eat, whatever, because it brought back their, their youth. And so, you know, the saying of " ; can' ; t judge a book by its cover" ; is totally true. So, yeah, like I said, it was just kind of one of those things where you just you keep enjoying what you do. |00:37:44| Brody What was it like growing up in Dallas during the eighties? |00:37:49| Chhen Hey, you know, like, I grew up in Garland, so it' ; s kind of redneck? Probably the best way to put it, I guess. Part of what you know, my neighborhood I grew up within didn' ; t have that many Asians except for like this one family who was like they babysat me and everyone else was, you know, Caucasian or whatever because it' ; s a very diverse neighborhood. And I always thought I was like the only other Asian guy versus everyone else. And so I got like high school and I was like, " ; Holy cow, it' ; s a lot more Asians." ; But then I felt I felt weird because I think it was never really around them. So it was really crazy, even as I kind of grew up was that I didn' ; t connect with that community 100% because I felt like I was just...I was never was ever brought up around that as much. Well, it' ; s real wild, but my closest, best friends are all Asian, and but they' ; re just as redneck as we are because we all grew up in Garland. And so, you know, we always see yourselves like, " ; Oh, well, you know, we' ; re unique in our own way." ; But I think that' ; s what makes us cool and unique, right? Every person gets to be inherently different and growing up in Dallas, where even in the eighties or nineties it was...I guess kind of hard. Eighties in the aspect of it' ; s like people are starting to see that, " ; Hey, there is like an ethnic minority now that' ; s in the Dallas area that' ; s different." ; I was never...My own personal, I was never looked down on, being Asian or being different. And that has been a blessing, I guess. Same thing with my opportunities, like career-wise as well. But, you know, as you move forward to like the nineties and I' ; m in like middle school and so forth. And again, Garland...We, just because it' ; s so diverse, everyone' ; s so used to being, seeing different people and it was never that hard feeling, not as a minority, you know, that that like, " ; Oh, I' ; m different type of thing." ; And even, I guess in the culinary world, as I guess I grow up, where they see me like " ; He' ; s got...That the guy' ; s rolling sushi, man. That guy, that guy' ; s got to be that dude." ; But I' ; m not. I can' ; t roll sushi for the life of me. I' ; d rather hire someone to do it than for me do it myself. But, you know, I never...I had a great childhood in the aspect...Just because the fact that I had great friends. They are lifelong friends. And, you know, they make up who I am as well outside of work because those guys are our brothers. And you get to see kind of because they share the same pain. Because we' ; re all minorities in our own way. But you...We try to make race, not our main focus. It' ; s about who we are. It' ; s about our pride. It' ; s about our skill set. It' ; s about what we can contribute to society to make it better. And I think that' ; s what truly matters. The color of my skin and more my hair or my eyes shouldn' ; t matter. It should be about what I can bring to make the place better. And, you know, as a chef and as a person who gets to employ people, you, you feel that because you... You take pride in what you do, but these guys also have dignity who work for you. You want them to have as much dignity as possible, even though they' ; re scrubbing your floor. It shouldn' ; t be about the skin or anything. It' ; s like, " ; Hey, man, you do a great job." ; It' ; s so they don' ; t feel that, " ; Hey, I' ; m just a janitor." ; My uncle' ; s a janitor until he retired and he put my, you know, my cousins through school. You know, my aunt' ; s an assembly line worker. My dad' ; s a mechanic. My mom, you know, was always in accounting or whatever, but it' ; s given them dignity and I think that' ; s what, my part of my other passion is that, is like giving people dignity in what they do. Because I didn' ; t...I don' ; t come from a white collar family. My family is all hard working and you take that and you, you feel every bit that this dishwasher' ; s working two jobs to be able to feed his family. Or this cook has to work doubles because she' ; s got to pay for medical bills or something like that. And you' ; re like, " ; Holy cow. Like, these people work so much harder just for the basic life necessities." ; So. Very different. |00:43:18| Brody Yeah, there definitely is a, you know, a way of thinking about the dignity of work and treating people with respect regardless of what they' ; re doing. So, you mentioned that your mom was such a good cook and that she cooked a lot of things that were of Southeast Asian origin when you were growing up, even though she told you that they were Chinese, but did you share your family' ; s food with your friends, your peers, your neighbors? |00:43:51| Chhen I think what' ; s wild is I cook more family style food at home? I think that' ; s when people get to eat the kind of like the more intimate side of me. But I do get to share that at work at times. You know, for instance, one day at...God, sometime last year I did this Taiwanese style braised pork belly at work. And it was my first time ever making it for that vast amount. I' ; ve always done it at home for like four or five people or whatever I was like, " ; All right. I mean, it' ; s the same cooking process. You just got to use bigger vessels to make everything." ; And I didn' ; t think anyone was going to eat it, Betsy, but holy shit. There was a line out the door. People were like, " ; That was amazing." ; It spread like a wildfire and I didn' ; t even get to eat it myself. I only got to try it to make sure it tasted great and it sold out within an hour and a half. Like, " ; Well, we' ; re I guess I don' ; t get to eat it." ; It was one of those few times I got to truly do something that' ; s more homestyle that you' ; ll never see in restaurants. And I brought it to more of the masses and...It done well. And so now I' ; m kind of like at home, like R& ; Ding like how to do a cool version of Clay Pot Rice or making dishes that were, as I would say, will blow your pants off when you somewhere I go eat like is is so good that will I will order it twice in one sitting and or it' ; s life changingly good because you' ; ve never seen a variation of that. And so I' ; ve been kind of going back to my youth and looking at dishes that I got to eat while I was traveling, going, " ; Wow, that was amazing. How do I now replicate that?" ; And so that' ; s kind of where I' ; m at. |00:45:35| Brody So, I mean, you' ; ve been trained with, you know, all sorts of great, you know, great chefs, Charlie Palmer and others, but you' ; ve really not chosen to be a, you know, a chef of Asian food specifically. What was your, what is your thinking behind that choice? |00:45:58| Chhen I think a lot of it was just I wanted to feel different. I wanted to be different. Not that I don' ; t ever want to do Asian food because I' ; m very skilled at it. I teach those things with, to other chefs. It' ; s just that I wanted to, when someone was to look at me as " ; can' ; t judge a book by its cover." ; I wanted to prove that to someone that I can make pasta from scratch and I could do all these different things that I' ; m not your typical Asian chef. And I think that' ; s what has always surprised people was that I' ; m not typical and I didn' ; t want to be. And I think that' ; s something that' ; s kind of cool. I think people should take more risks because it' ; s a big risk to be outside your norm. And I think people should do more of that because I think it' ; s more, I would say it' ; s more of that aspect that...What' ; s that word? That when you feel like you' ; re, that kind of freedom, what is that word? |00:47:04| Brody Liberated. |00:47:04| Chhen Liberated. That' ; s the word. You feel more liberated because you' ; re not. You' ; re like, " ; I just do it how I want." ; So what' ; s the...That' ; s the great thing is like, just like any child, right? Or anyone, I get to do whatever the hell I want. And that' ; s kind of the thought was like, why keep myself in a box? I' ; m going to do whatever the hell I want and be liberated from it and not be judged by being Asian or being anything. Judge me by the food, amazing food that I put out. And that' ; s kind of why I wanted to do it, was because I wanted not to be the same as anyone else. And there' ; s no fault in anyone who wants to stay in that path, because I think there' ; s- you inherently need those people. Because you' ; re like, " ; Hey, dude. You make these amazing noodles. Stick to this. Please don' ; t change it because I want to keep eating here." ; But at the exact same time, if you want to be, if you' ; re, if you want to be a risk taker, be a risk taker. And I think that' ; s kind of where my mom was a big influence on that. When she was like, " ; If you' ; re going to do something, do your best." ; And my sister, who is this amazing woman was like, " ; In order for you to be the best, you need to work at the best at that particular thing." ; And, and as a minority, and this is something that' ; s very unique and it' ; s so true, is that we have to work so much harder to get recognized. We have to be better than someone else to get that recognition. And so that' ; s what I did, was to be liberated, you had to be better at everything you did. And so I kept moving. I kept growing. I kept learning. And I wanted to be better at it. Because inherently you are looked at as like, " ; Hey, does he have that? Or is that person who is of Asian descent, can they handle that or can they, are they that skilled?" ; I think that' ; s kind of one thing we as minorities have to always have to be that. You can' ; t just be par. You have to be that much better. And I think that' ; s kind of where, why I didn' ; t want to be pigeonholed. Was...in order to grow, you had to learn something else, learn more skill sets and that' ; s the path I took. It' ; s a hard path. Don' ; t get me wrong. It is very...You get looked upon like, " ; Why are you not staying true to that?" ; Or you' ; re not..." ; Why are you taking that food and not keeping it traditional?" ; And I don' ; t, I don' ; t want it to be traditional. Cultures and food move forward. You know, you can' ; t keep buying the same car. It' ; s 20 years...will get old. You know, you want something new, you do something different. I think that' ; s kind of what...where not being pigeonholed helps because you can move cuisine or culture more forward. And that' ; s what I' ; ve always been an advocate of. Just like if we' ; re going do Asian, let' ; s do a progressive Asian style food. It tastes what it needs to taste like. But you could present it better, you can do different ways of like of making it. Don' ; t lock in to where, " ; Hey, dude, like, I' ; m not your mom, and we' ; re not going to make it how your mom makes it. I' ; m going to make it the the way I ate it." ; Or, or what people- I' ; m doing air quotes of what' ; s traditional because it' ; s not. " ; Traditional" ; is whatever you grew up with. And I think people keep forgetting. It' ; s like just because your mom makes beef and broccoli with carrots, my mom doesn' ; t, doesn' ; t that mean my version is wrong. And I think that' ; s the one thing with Asian cuisine, is that when you move it forward, young or old guests are like, " ; Why are you changing it?" ; Why not? Have fun with food, have fun with it. Don' ; t lock yourself in. And I' ; ll give an example, Betsy, is like Chinese music. For the longest time, everyone thinks Chinese music or even K-Pop would never ever happen if people did move that music forward. It' ; d be old, traditional like, like, you know, erhu or guzheng playing. It would be those things. But now it' ; s modern. It' ; s people....BTS is served at McDonald' ; s. So why are we not moving it forward, why are we not moving our own food? We should be proud as Asians to move our own food forward and not let someone else do it. I think that' ; s the one thing that we need to take from it, to be more passionate about is to not pigeonhole someone. Be an innovator, be a progressive person, move it, but be that ambassador of that cuisine to move that forward. I think that' ; s kind of where we lack in the Asian community is, is the Asian chefs to push it more forward. We keep having traditional that' ; s fine. Cool, keep doing traditional. But we need more people to keep moving forward and to not look down on the chefs who want to move that forward. I think that' ; s always been my experience is that that " ; This isn' ; t how my mom made it or this isn' ; t traditional." ; And so you feel that tension of...Like I think you and I talked about this before. If it was a Caucasian chef doing ethnic food from Vietnam or whatever, " ; He' ; s amazing. This guy' ; s innovative." ; But if I did it. " ; Holy cow. You ruined my mom' ; s dish." ; That' ; s not right. You should, you should be proud of me, taking our cuisine and not this other guy who just, you know, ate at restaurants all day or stole the recipe off someone. It shouldn' ; t be that you should support your own kind moving it forward and not shunning them for doing so. |00:53:03| Brody Do you think that' ; s particular to Asian cuisine? Or do you, you know, when you were working in Italian and other areas, did you think that, that kind of pattern existed? |00:53:14| Chhen I think it' ; s all...I didn' ; t see that, working in either in fine dining or in Italian cuisine. Like a lot of fine dining restaurants, have massive Asian sous chefs, chefs de cuisines, or cooks that work. And they have they are so amazing in what they do. You know, New York tends to be a good hub of people who want to push Asian cuisine forward. Texas and especially Dallas, sees it as blasphemy. And that' ; s so sad. Is that Texas inherently has the probably the most innovative in food and everything you do. Coastal cities think they' ; re amazing because they' ; re on the coast. They' ; re big cities. But people would think that Texas is just meat and potatoes, but so much cool innovation comes out of here and we don' ; t get as much credit as we do. And so when someone who' ; s like in Dallas, when we try to move the food forward, it' ; s like, " ; No, no, no, no." ; And I think that' ; s wrong. And I think we should support more of that, Betsy. And, and that' ; s the downfall. I think part of it is with Dallas in general is that, that dining scene shuns the chef who wants to move it forward and have a hard time gaining traction. They' ; re great if they keep, if they stay in their lane, but once you move one lane over, it' ; s like, " ; Oh, dear God, don' ; t. Why are you doing that?" ; I think that' ; s sad. |00:54:50| Brody So, Dallas, as you know, won, you know, " ; Restaurant City of the Year" ; in the past and has a history, I mean, of lots of people going out to eat a lot and also a history of in the earliest days of, you know, a lot of fine dining. The French influence and all of that. Where do you see Asian restaurants fitting into this larger Dallas landscape? |00:55:18| Chhen I think what makes it kind of cool is that if we finally, whether it' ; s fine dining...I think fine dining is slowly, as a trend that' ; s kind of going away. Even like your steak houses, you can wear shorts in it these days or so that " ; white tablecloth" ; part of it' ; s kind of going away. But I think it' ; s that more casual but more upscale food or ingredients. I think that' ; s kind of one thing we need to start pushing more. I think Asian cuisine will have its own setting if we finally not keep it the same all the time. I think that' ; s kind of where we need, as chefs or even the Asian community, need to take that time to get together and really like, " ; Hey, dude, like you do these great things. You' ; re doing this great things, but we' ; re all this box. Let' ; s get together and it' ; s. Move it more forward. Let' ; s not all be the same. What can we do to be different?" ; And, you know, as sometimes as a, you know, chefs are also consumers as well. You see all these things where " ; Why are we all doing the same thing? Why can' ; t we now just kind of get out of the box?" ; And, you know, I think that' ; s more the business side. I think that' ; s kind of where chefs and business people are very different is because you need the business sometimes with these, you need a businessman to help to take you more forward. But you need the chef, that ability to kind of do something a little bit different. I wish we could just be more progressive together. There are so many talented chefs in the Dallas area that are Asian that could do so many different things, but I think they too need to be liberated from that box. That they too get out of that box and work and do other things as well. I think that' ; s kind of a great thing with anyone is like, you know, you, you...I appreciate sushi chefs in the aspect that their skill set is very precise, very particular. But you put them in a rushed environment, working a fast recipe, they would fail because they can' ; t do it. They' ; re like, " ; I took 6 hours to make this, but now you' ; re giving me an hour to do this." ; They just don' ; t have that skill set. So it' ; s kind of like me the other day, I learned about myself was like, " ; Holy cow, I' ; m trying to prep for my sushi chef all these ingredients and super precise." ; I' ; m like, " ; No wonder they get paid a lot." ; Because he' ; s over there like fine dice to the like nth degree and or like strips are perfect. And I respect all that and it' ; s so amazing. Those don' ; t change because that' ; s a skill set I want to learn more of as well. But you know, be bold, be different. Like, take that risk. And I think that' ; s kind of one thing that we inherently, as Asians, is that sometimes we' ; re just too afraid to do that. You know, we want to stay with tradition or we want to stay with because risky is hard. And not that working in a restaurant is any easier. But you' ; re not adding that extra layer of risk to what you' ; re doing and say, " ; Okay, man, I' ; m going to now go outside of the box. If it doesn' ; t- I know this works, but if I' ; m about do this, something that is so totally different, is it worth it? Is it worth that extra risk factor?" ; I think that' ; s kind of one thing that everyone' ; s got to look at. I have been very blessed that I' ; ve been working, you know, I get to work for, you know, a very large company that has, you know, the ability to do that. But when it comes to " ; mom and pop" ; it is so much harder. It is so much harder for the independent chefs or independent business owners to take that risk to be different because that' ; s your livelihood. If you took a risk and you, you know, shit the bed or, you know, and it doesn' ; t work. So. I can see why they don' ; t take that risk. But I think sometimes you just need to just to be different and have fun with it. |00:59:18| Brody You mentioned earlier Martin Yan and the PBS show that he was on, a cooking show that he was on in the eighties. How important for you has representation of people that look like you been in the industry that you work in? |00:59:35| Chhen It' ; s been amazing. Because, you know, it' ; s amazing. And there' ; s also downfalls to it, right? Where people are like, " ; Oh, you' ; re, you' ; re Asian. You must be good at this." ; Right? But the other thing is, they' ; re like, " ; Okay, you' ; re Asian. You must be really fast at doing this." ; You know, watching Martin Yan and his knife skills and the way he cuts, I don' ; t think anyone young can even keep up with that man with his knife skills of butchering a chicken in, like, 18 seconds or chopping the way he chops or whatever. Those are just skill sets that he' ; s learned over the years. And but it was really cool to be able to see myself. An image of like someone who is Asian, who was on TV, and that they get to be able to be recognized for what they do and be passionate about it and you know, my lifelong dream was to be able to meet Martin Yan. I got to and, yeah, it was an amazing thing to be like....I was like, " ; Chef. Ahhhhhh." ; Like, it was like.... |01:00:36| Brody Tell me, how did that come about? When did you meet him? |01:00:38| Chhen So I was working for Compass. I was working, working in San Francisco at the time, and we were doing this event called " ; Top Nosh." ; It was like for Chase Bank and their and their like clientele and so forth. And it was so cool. They' ; re like, " ; Hey, you need to go help and support." ; Like, " ; Oh, might as well, oh, I' ; m already, you know, working here." ; And so they didn' ; t tell me he was there. And I just kind of walk there like " ; Is that Martin Yan?" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Yes!" ; And I just like want to say " ; Chef. Like, I grew up watching you." ; Of course I speak to him in Chinese. So he went, " ; Oh, okay." ; You know, it' ; s that language thing, right? Where people, at times would give you better service if you spoke in their native tongue. And so I was like, " ; Hey, Chef, you know, I...Can I take a picture with you?" ; In Chinese, " ; ke yi gen ni zhao xiang pian ma" ; And he was like, " ; Hao hao hao." ; And so I did. They took a picture of him and I together, and I was like, like, " ; You' ; re my idol. The reason why I become a chef is because of you." ; And he was like, " ; Thank you. We need more of you." ; But, you know, he said it also as like a pride in that culture. Like he was like " ; There' ; s we need to be more Chinese chefs to get to do more of this." ; And it' ; s just a very Chinese thing to say is that, you know, you' ; re proud of your culture, proud of who you are, we need more of that, more of that representation. I think that' ; s kind of where it' ; s really cool to see Martin Yan who is Chinese and he gets to represent, in a very positive light, in what we do. And so it was really cool for him to say that back to me like, " ; Hey, good for you. Like there should be more of a huaren, which is that, you know, Chinese people out there and doing this industry." ; |01:02:27| Brody What an amazing experience. |01:02:28| Chhen It was. It was. |01:02:33| Brody It' ; s just you' ; re raising a lot of questions for me about how difficult it is to, to navigate when we' ; re talking about things that are so close to people' ; s hearts, like, you know, culture, ethnicity, you know, and food. Right? So, for you, what is the culture or how is culture transmitted through food, in your view? |01:03:05| Chhen That was a good question. I think for me, how I, how I personally transfer my culture and food, it' ; s...is that, when I cook, it' ; s the DNA of the different chefs who I' ; ve worked under. It' ; s in it. It' ; s somehow in it. And it' ; s...whether a cooking process that they taught me or ingredient they showed me or something that they' ; ve invested at, like...Fried rice, right. It' ; s, it' ; s traditionally you, you know, eggs, whatever. But here we are, you know, working for Charlie Palmer, like clarified butter. Let' ; s make fried rice with clarified butter.... See what it tastes like. It' ; s fricking amazing. Make fricking fried rice with clarified butter...It tastes...Has that extra umami to it. And that' ; s kind of how I do it, is that I take something traditional but I took the DNA of who I worked for and kind of added into it, and it becomes our own. When I, you know, Chef Scott taught me how to make like his own house seasoning. I took that and I' ; ve used it everywhere I' ; ve gone. And that variation of what he taught me is in everything I make, like you eat the fries. it' ; s on it. You eat my burgers, it' ; s on it. You eat my steaks, it' ; s on it. It...But it doesn' ; t taste the same. It is one of those things that evolves. Even though I put it on everything, it doesn' ; t taste that seasoning, doesn' ; t transfer over as " ; Oh, that' ; s the same taste." ; It' ; s not. And so that' ; s the greatest thing is that, you know, when I make the food, it' ; s just a little bit of everything and a little bit of everywhere I' ; ve worked for a little bit for whoever trained me. It' ; s, it' ; s that' ; s...It' ; s in every chef. Every chef has DNA of whatever they' ; ve learned and what they' ; ve taught or who showed them. It' ; s instilled in them, because that' ; s how we learn. And, you know, whoever wants to go to culinary school, I' ; m telling you right now, it' ; s like it' ; s best, it' ; s great to learn terminology, but that you learn so much more in the industry. And I think that' ; s kind of where it makes it so much cooler is that what you learn at that particular restaurant or that particular establishment, you can take that skill set somewhere else. It might not be the right way they do it somewhere else because they' ; re going to teach you how they do things. You take that teaching method and you go to the next one, you inherently build that DNA. And my, you know, godmother chef, she always said it, but she' ; s like, " ; Steal with your eyes because they' ; ll never know you took it." ; |01:05:47| Brody That' ; s a good one. |01:05:48| Chhen Yep. |01:05:50| Brody So much of what you' ; re saying, you know, is...highlights how your journey and going through culinary school and all your mentors and experiences that you' ; ve had in the different aspects of the industry have shaped who you are and how you, you know, how you present the food that you do every day. But a lot of, especially Asian restaurants, are not run by people who have, you know, a strong sort of academic background in in cooking and hospitality. Typically, you know, a lot of, especially in the earliest days in Dallas, the restaurants were " ; mom and pop" ; restaurants where people were just trying to create a taste of home for their own families, a small business, and then ended up with a following of people who wanted that taste from home and then other more, you know, adventurous people who wanted to try a new kind of food during that time. What are the sort of differences? I mean, it' ; s two different things, apples and oranges, a chef-driven sort of restaurant concept versus a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant. What are the key differences in your view and challenges for each? |01:07:07| Chhen I think with " ; mom and pop" ; , I think you and I were touching base earlier about this too, is that it' ; s teaching. It' ; s like teach the next generation. Teach. Teach. Teach someone to do your job. That is very different from " ; mom and pop" ; . It' ; s like they' ; re there all day long. And you' ; re like, " ; Mom, Dad, why are you there? Please teach someone." ; And. That' ; s part of the Asian culture. Whichever Asian you are, because it' ; s still to them, it' ; s like, " ; No, get out." ; And I think that' ; s the " ; mom and pop" ; is they don' ; t and they don' ; t want to teach someone because they want to hold onto that control or they want to hold on to like...Back then, it was also like " ; Oh they' ; re going to steal my money." ; While everyone' ; s gone, completely almost cashless. There' ; s no money you can truly steal or cash. So please teach someone to do some of it. I think with a more chef- driven, part of it that' ; s very different is that you learn, you know more about food law and about food- like code versus like " ; mom and pop" ; . They don' ; t know like " ; Hey, you have to the store everything' ; s six inches off the ground" ; or here' ; s your categories how you store food, chicken' ; s on the bottom and so forth. And what temperature of degree the chicken needs be cooked to or turkey or poultry. They don' ; t know that. They' ; re just " ; mom and pop" ; . I think that' ; s so different. Where...how they got anyone sick is it' ; s own crazy thing. But no, that' ; s not it. It' ; s really more of just knowledge, right? Where the " ; mom and pop" ; , they don' ; t have that and they have to learn the hard way. So that' ; s what' ; s so bad and so hard on them. It' ; s like now they' ; re learning from someone else or learning bad traits. And that' ; s why sometimes when people look at " ; mom and pops," ; " ; Hey, the place is dirty, or that place isn' ; t right." ; It' ; s not because of their own fault. Sometimes they just don' ; t know. And as chefs who' ; s worked in the industry and you go through culinary school, you learn those. That' ; s one of the things that' ; s so different is that you learn like inherently food handling and food storage and all those things that they don' ; t know. And I think that' ; s the major difference, if you split it down comes to...Is just more modernized knowledge versus just like, " ; Hey, let' ; s just make these dishes and call it a day." ; And that' ; s more the back end stuff that you' ; ll never see. And that' ; s kind of more of it. It' ; s like, you know, most restaurants you' ; ll always see the front, you' ; ll never see the back. But I think that' ; s kind of where the back side of business is very different for " ; mom and pop" ; in and a more chef- driven or westernized chef, you know more of that food code and food law that they don' ; t. |01:09:57| Brody Yeah that that' ; s a really interesting some I' ; ve been looking at a lot of restaurant reviews over the years, particularly of Asian restaurants. And it is interesting when you' ; re looking at reviews because it' ; s, what, it reflects, what people think is the ideal or what people think is authentic or what people are seeking. So, you know, many times the " ; mom and pop" ; is perceived as more, quote unquote, authentic. And whereas a more upscale version of similar cuisine is, you know, sought after by some people, but also derided maybe as an inauthentic or too Americanized. What are your thoughts on, on that straddling that? |01:10:47| Chhen You know, when I get off work, because chefs and this, I' ; m going to speak for of us as chefs, is that we want the " ; mom and pop" ; . They are, they are what influence what our cuisine becomes in the future. They, they need to be around. I enjoy that. Because they make something that I cannot replicate and I...and you need that. There' ; s nothing wrong. I think that' ; s the best thing is like, sometimes as chefs, we' ; re like, you know, this...There' ; s this taqueria in Carrollton, they make the best menudo. I don' ; t want to learn how to make it. I don' ; t care. I want to keep going to enjoy what they...And it' ; s a hole in the wall. Amazing place. I won' ; t tell you where because then everyone will be. But at the exact same time, it' ; s just amazing. They that...You want them to keep thriving because you want them to be successful. But they are why chefs get to move cuisine forward as well as you' ; re like, " ; Holy cow, I know this. This is amazing. I want to take this feeling of me eating this and transfer it now to this one thing I want to create." ; And they both are needed to keep the industry stable and the industry thriving is because when chefs get off work or cooks get off work, they want to go to the hole in the wall, eat and enjoy, while the normal dining consumer wants to go to the more modern or whatever maybe. And so, you know, you look at it as a consumer, like, I love both. There' ; s nothing wrong with either one of them because you all, you want everyone to be successful and " ; mom and pops" ; are great, not because they' ; re traditional, because sometimes they' ; ll makes something like, " ; This doesn' ; t taste, you know, just anywhere you go, any restaurant. This doesn' ; t taste right." ; But you want to make sure... You just want to eat something that, you, that you feel is authentic to them, to where their own background is, and I think that part is all is...is hard because just like I was telling you earlier, like everyone' ; s, not everyone' ; s their mom. Everyone, their experiences are very different. Some " ; mom and pops" ; make amazing food, sometimes, like, " ; Oh, man. A little bit more salt." ; But it' ; s you know, as a chef, you straddle both sides of that boat no matter what. Your legs are on both ends. And you want to have both. You want to enjoy it. I' ; m, my friends and I, and also my chef friends, we' ; re just like Tony Bourdain. You eat at the " ; mom and pop." ; you enjoy the " ; mom and pop." ; you want to go to their mom' ; s house to eat because you get to learn. You get to learn so much more about that culture, about why they' ; re so passionate about that particular dish or cuisine, because that' ; s where it comes from. Chefs all come from humble backgrounds. It comes from the " ; mom and pop." ; and you need that no matter what, like there is. You just you need it because it drives us to be stronger. It drives that culture to be stronger. And we need to share more of that. Whatever that culture or that food or " ; mom and pop" ; may be, you want to send as many people to both sides of it. Life' ; s too short to not eat good food. |01:14:24| Brody That is true. The flip side of that same question...What about, you know, especially coming from your background and having all that classical sort of French training and all of that? When chefs, particularly non-Asian chefs, are coming out of that tradition and then, you know, start incorporating Asian flavors, Asian techniques. What are your thoughts on that? |01:14:55| Chhen I think everyone should dabble into it. Think, you know, just like I dabbled in Indian cuisine or Mediterranean, it' ; s like you want to learn. I think from what' ; s different and this this is just my own story versus every other chefs is that I think sometimes some chefs just want to pull ingredients, just to throw it in. You know, so the thing of throwing pasta on the wall and make it stick, but they just use it as an ingredient. You know, for me, it' ; s like I want to use it as either like to enhance that flavor or to bring out something that' ; s different. And I think non-Western, non-Asian chefs, sometimes they just go, " ; Oh, let me just do X, Y and Z, and it should work." ; But you miss the whole, the whole middle part that like I would say the DNA or the intricacies of that particular culture' ; s cuisine. And I think sometimes what sort of chefs would throw ingredients that are Japanese, that are Korean, and then Asian, or Chinese into one dish. And you' ; re like this, " ; This isn' ; t right. This is like I' ; m eating something with furikake on it, which is Japanese with a gojuchang sauce, which is Korean." ; And then you' ; re like, " ; What are you, what are you doing here? This makes no sense to me." ; And which is real wild in my industry. It' ; s like I get to hire new chefs. And this brings a prime example to what exactly what you' ; re talking about. Western chefs or non Asian chefs incorporating Asian ingredients. So I do what' ; s called " ; chef tests" ; or " ; chef tastings" ; for people to hire new chefs to work for us and into our...with us. And for the longest time, all these chefs would make Asian food for me. And I' ; m like- before we do it, we' ; re like " ; Hey, man. Just do food that you' ; re comfortable with. Do food that you are...that is you. I want it to be you' ; re successful. Do whatever." ; And for I think six months straight, each chef that came and did a tasting did something Asian and we' ; re like, " ; Why?" ; And not because it didn' ; t taste good but it was because it made no sense. Like the like you would literally do like grits...Shrimp and grits is one dish and then you' ; re literally doing like these gojuchang marinated like pork rib. And it wasn' ; t right. And then he would like drizzle, honey or, or like garnish it with something that made no sense. And he said, " ; Oh, I made this Asian dish for you." ; Why? Your like. " ; Please." ; Like, not that I don' ; t want that. I think that' ; s great that they' ; re trying. That- I think that' ; s the good part is they are, people are trying to incorporate it. Asian food in here is very hard to make in the essence of the flavor because unless you grew up in that culture or lived in a very long time, you don' ; t pick up the intricacies of it. And just because you' ; re like, " ; Oh, this is, you know, this particular dish is great, or I want to add that." ; It might- it will change the flavor or the way the food needs to taste. And I think Western chefs who try it should, in their own way, probably go eat more, go eat more of that cuisine and you pick more of it. Llke it' ; s so sad, like even for me. Like my comfort food is noodles and Asian food, even outside at work. And because those are the flavors I' ; m so used to. I' ; m so used to eating it, and it' ; s not their fault. They didn' ; t grow up eating that food or growing up in that particular culture. I think it' ; s awesome they take the time to put into it, but like you missed the mark just a tad and there' ; s nothing wrong because I could be said the same for me about Italian food. Like " ; This guys has no idea what he' ; s doing." ; And so that' ; s kind of where that' ; s at. But that' ; s the main reason why I wanted to work in an Italian restaurant for fine dining because I want to know those intricacies of that cuisine. Because I want to pay respect to that. I did not want to be like, " ; Oh, I' ; m going to make this pomodoro sauce, completely bastardize it, and be wrong." ; Where if Italian guy comes and eats it, " ; I don' ; t know, like, man, this is way off." ; And that' ; s what I wanted to do. And that' ; s when. Taking the time and working. This is you know, not everyone' ; s path is the same, right? Every chef takes a different path. There' ; s no one...no one. It' ; s not like medical school where you go... This is your regimen, this is your regimen. It' ; s not, you know, once chefs take so many different paths. And some chefs that I' ; ve worked for they purposely went to go work at a particular restaurant or cuisine because they wanted to learn so much about it. And then they get to respect that. That' ; s what makes it different. Feel like what you were talking about, like Westernized chefs or Westerners...It' ; s like you either dabble just a little, but then you miss the mark or you have ones that are amazing, that lived in Thailand or lived in China and like know it, and then they make it. You' ; re like, " ; Holy cow." ; Like, I' ; ll give an instance where I was doing this chef test and this is just for a cook position, and we told her to make an omelet. The simplest thing ever, an omelet. And everything she made was okay, but this omelet was amazing. And me and the other chef and our food service director was like, " ; Where did you learn how to make this?" ; This omelet tastes like a Hong Kong style omelet. All I needed was rice and soy sauce and it would be set. She was " ; Oh I worked for a Chinese chef for a long time." ; And we' ; re like, " ; This explains why this omelet tastes the way it tasted." ; Because she worked for that particular person, she never made risotto or ______. She never made anything else but, this? We hired her because of that omelet that she made, because it tasted just like I was in Hong Kong. |01:20:44| Brody Wow. So that' ; s the DNA that you were talking? |01:20:46| Chhen Yeah. Everything falls into a DNA of where you' ; ve worked and where you' ; ve been. And I think that' ; s kind of like you were saying, like, Westernized chefs, it doesn' ; t matter what culture or what ethnicity it' ; s, just that, you know, you worked somewhere and you learn that culture of that food. And just because you' ; re, you know, slap chopping sort of ingredient in there, doesn' ; t matter of what- whether it' ; s masala or whatever or fenugreek? But it' ; s like just because you throw it in there doesn' ; t make it that cuisine, doesn' ; t make it Indian, doesn' ; t make it Mediterranean, doesn' ; t make it Turkish or whatever. And so it' ; s, you know, that' ; s kind of how...I want to respect that food. And I don' ; t want someone who eats it goes, " ; Nope, that' ; s wrong." ; And I think that' ; s where it also comes from- pride. When you take pride in something, when you- when what you do, especially food, because it' ; s very personal, it' ; s very intimate. When you take that pride to learn for it to be correct, you can transfer that correctness into moving it to be something different. And so kind of like, we always come back to that DNA and that and that tradition of that respect part of it. That' ; s the respect part. It comes down to is like if you respect where that cuisine comes from or how was originally made and the flavors, you then know as a chef to manipulate or mimic it to do something else. And so when you eat something, even though it looks like a teardrop of like a broth, and you' ; re like, " ; Hey, I' ; m going to make this chicken tortilla soup." ; But it comes in this like gelatinized format. And when you break it or you pour hot water and it dissolves and you eat it, even though it' ; s a more modern way of doing it. But you' ; re like, " ; Holy cow, this tastes like it came from this part of Mexico or whatever it may be." ; It' ; s because you learned the foundation of it. And I think that' ; s kind of where, chefs' ; different paths, and sometimes they don' ; t get that foundation that they need. And, you know, again, I was just blessed much younger with that that foundation. I think it' ; s harder as you grow older, just like anything you do. You don' ; t have the time or the or whatever. But, you know. You know, I, I was blessed even with Compass, working there is that there are chefs that are very good at that particular cuisine. You get to learn from them. You get to understand and ask the reasons why and why does it taste this way? Why do you why do you do it this way? And you, again, add that DNA into what you' ; re doing or think another skill set just to make sure that that food that you' ; re making, you' ; re paying respect to originally. |01:23:22| Brody You mentioned Anthony Bourdain earlier, and he has come up quite a bit in a lot of the conversations that I' ; ve been having with Asian restaurant owners and chefs. What does he mean to you and how has his work influenced the way you think about this space? |01:23:46| Chhen You know, I guess to this day, I probably can watch his very last episode of " ; Parts Unknown." ; He really brought the food industry in the light of how hardworking we are. How everything- nothing is as easy... Just because you eat this meal that' ; s amazing or could be trash. That person put their heart and soul to make it for you. And it' ; s not easy. It' ; s grinding. It' ; s you' ; re in the heat, you' ; re in the cold, you' ; re standing 14, 15 hours of the day. He, he brought...The food industry would not be where it is without him showing it. And because he is a chef, a trained chef, and he worked his ass off as a chef, he never disrespected that part of it. And it means a lot to us as chefs in general, not even is because he...He loved Asia. That' ; s his big thing. He loved Vietnam. Loved anywhere in Asia. But he lived anywhere in the world. And I' ; ve always loved watching his episodes when he goes to different parts of Asia, because he always, for the most part, as a chef and as, kind of like you and I talk about, is like he always goes to " ; mom and pops" ; or eats the street foods. Because that' ; s where the food is. That' ; s where the amazing parts is. He really- he' ; ll dabble in some fine dining here and there, like just like any chef would. But, if you watch as he...He respects that culture, which wherever it may be, wherever his travels may be. And he respected that food. And that' ; s why I love him so much, is that I use that as my- my inspiration. That' ; s why I keep telling you like that the respect of that culture, respecting of that food, it' ; s because of him. He...when you watch it, you...It' ; s like, what' ; s the thing? Was kind of in the background, but you don' ; t think it' ; s there, but inherently you do it. But I forget what it' ; s called, but you keep watching. It' ; s just like you hear what he says. He' ; s like, " ; This is whatever. This is from Turkish. Or this is the this is amazing or whatever." ; And even his videography about it, he pays respect to the culture or whatever that food or wherever he travels, or anything. And he makes...he has made the culinary world where they respect our job. That we' ; re not a servant. That we' ; re not here to just feed you and then be treated with not respect. He' ; s moved the industry forward that it' ; s a career path that people want to take. You know, for good and bad and everyone wants to be on the Food Network or whatever. But that' ; s not what the industry really is. He really made it to where it' ; s like. You were human. You know, his...In one of his episodes, one of his best friends is a chef when he was at Les Halles. Les Halles as a dishwasher, worked his way is up to be Executive Chef and he got to go back. The episode is called " ; Into the Fire" ; was him with Eric Ripert. They were working the line at Les Halles and he explained the brigade. So he explained how the restaurant worked from the supply chain to when it' ; s prepped to once gets prepped to where it gets fired on the line to where it gets onto your table. That episode made me so proud because he put the hard work out there, where all these people from dishwashers to whatever. He showed it that people never get to see that. People just think that, " ; Oh here. You know, throw something at me or just leave that there and I' ; ll pick it up." ; It' ; s like " ; You know how hard that was to get? You know how hard was that to make?" ; Or you know how long this guy took 8 hours of prepping this or whatever it may be, and you' ; re just like, " ; Whatever." ; But he put that. So where people go, " ; Holy cow, that supply chain, that work, and that everything just to be able to make a cookie or whatever or anything that' ; s house made that takes it that long." ; And he showed it to the world and it gave us that pride. Gave us people who work in that industry a sense of more pride. And that' ; s why like everyone in the industry cherishes him. I mean tons of chefs, too. It' ; s because he put it out there. Because it' ; s not an easy job. It really isn' ; t. It' ; s not an easy job. And he made sure people got to respect that. And that it' ; s a respectable career. That it' ; s not something that people look on as we' ; re just servants or we' ; re just cooks for people. |01:28:39| Brody It goes back to how you were talking about how you treat the people on your team with dignity and to look at every job as full of dignity. |01:28:50| Chhen Correct. Correct. And he did that. I mean, you watch his ep- you watch what he does and watch what he talks about. He really brings out the light of every culture that he goes to because he wants- he' ; s respecting that. And that' ; s the great thing with what he did. I think this kind of like, you know, after his passing, I think everyone' ; s like, who will fill his void of really doing his work. And, you know, it' ; s like I can' ; t watch that many type of food type of travel because it' ; s just not the same. They' ; re not Anthony Bourdain. They' ; re not...As much as like how, you know, like Gordon Ramsay, like...It' ; s just not the same. I respect that man. The guy' ; s amazing chef, but it' ; s just not the same. Even though they all, both of them came from humble backgrounds, they worked their ass off to where they' ; re at. But it' ; s just the presentation' ; s different, is probably the best way to put it. |01:29:51| Brody Yeah. The spirit of the show is different. |01:29:53| Chhen Yes. |01:29:55| Brody Since we were talking about Gordon Ramsay and Anthony Bourdain, I' ; m just curious, talking to a chef, what do you think, what impact has the sort of rise of the celebrity chef since the eighties had on the industry that you work in? |01:30:13| Chhen It' ; s made some bad parts and made some good things. People who go to culinary school who think that, " ; Oh, I' ; m going to get out and think I' ; m going to be a celebrity chef." ; Good luck. Those....It' ; s hard to come by. But, it really may open people' ; s eyes into more food. I think that' ; s the best part, is that it made it also made the public more educated in food versus being, " ; Oh, I don' ; t know about that or whatever." ; It' ; s kind of one of those things that they really have educated the common public more, which is awesome. I think that' ; s why people now you go to Koreatown in Carrollton, you don' ; t just see Koreans there. You see all kinds of people there because the chefs have opened up more to that. And that' ; s kind of what that with them doing that thing was... That' ; s the positive side of it. You know, as I was saying, the negative is just, you know, people who are aspiring to be that, it' ; s like, " ; Dude, that' ; s like one in 10 million that you get to be it." ; And it makes the industry harder for the kind of the day to day in the aspect of like, you know, you get these new students who' ; ve just gone to culinary school, thinking they' ; re going to be amazing. Dude, you' ; re peeling potatoes. Like, or, you' ; re washing dishes and peeling potatoes. You' ; re not going to be able to even get to cook yet. Because that' ; s kind of where their origin' ; s from. It' ; s like, yeah, he' ; s Gordon Ramsay or Wolfgang Puck where they' ; ve worked their ass off to get to where they' ; re at or worked under chefs that will throw pans at you, saute pans, or curse you out or or whatever. They went through all of that, and you' ; re over here going, " ; How dare you to raise your voice to me, telling me that' ; s wrong." ; Like, no. Like, you know, I' ; m not saying to be...There' ; s a difference of being disrespected and there' ; s a difference of being passionate that you did something wrong. I think that' ; s kind of where these new kids don' ; t seem to understand. I know our system, the brigade system is just like the military. It' ; s not about you. It' ; s about the work. And I think the newer generation of younger, aspiring chefs or whatever needs understand that it' ; s never about you personally. And I think that' ; s kind of where the TV makes it different, is that they think that it' ; s all rainbows and unicorns, but it' ; s really not. It' ; s and so, you know, even for me, don' ; t get me wrong, I grew up in that industry of, you know, German chefs, French chefs, and, you know, all that swearing and throwing everything around. Like our industry is changing as well. Kind of like what you' ; re saying, the Gordon Ramsay or whatever, but at the exact same time, they too have to change where in their actual restaurants, you know, there' ; s HR, there' ; s Human Resources doing all these different things. You can' ; t just fling things at someone, strike someone with a saute pan. It doesn' ; t happen. But, you know, we have to, you know, make sure everyone' ; s safe. But at the exact same time, I always tell my staff if I' ; m, you know, screaming or yelling or cursing about something, it' ; s never about you as a person, is about this product, it' ; s about that work. And so it' ; s always been that, for that. And so I guess as the industry changes to be more PC, to be more corporate, I think sometimes we lose the essence of how the culinary world has become. You know, just like anyone will say is that the culinary world has become softer. And the reason why chefs were always so great, like, you know, like that generation, is they grew up in that, that tough love. And it' ; s not as tough love as it used to be. |01:33:51| Brody What impact do you think social media- whether it' ; s like influencers and Instagram and all that stuff or Yelp and, you know, online review sites- what what impact have those types of things had on the industry? |01:34:08| Chhen I think a lot of it has good. Like there will always be good to anything someone does, right? Like someone who just, you know, make us some awesome food should be recognized for what they do. Influencers and everything should do whatever. But the bad side is, is that sometimes it' ; s just their opinion. And just because you had it somewhere else doesn' ; t mean that version is bad. And what makes it so hard for us as chefs is like, " ; You' ; re just an influencer. You' ; re not, you' ; re not a cook. You have never worked in the industry. How do you know something or how do you dictate the difference of what something is?" ; And it makes it harder. And our essence of like everyone is a food critic, you know, just everyone judges you by your Yelp review or whatever. And, but at the exact same time, some of these restaurants you go to only have like two stars on Yelp. But your like, " ; This is amazing. How do you get two stars?" ; And you read, it says " ; Oh, the guy didn' ; t have, you know, the right napkins. I didn' ; t like their fork." ; And you' ; re like, " ; Guys, that has nothing to do. Why would you write a review for that?" ; And I think that' ; s kind of where social media and like the Instagrams and the Yelp is like everyone' ; s got an opinion. Everyone' ; s got something to say to drag someone down that truly isn' ; t about...I mean, if your experience was terrible, by all means, please write the " ; Hey, this is what happened." ; Or " ; I had this chicken that was completely dry or ______ was super salty." ; Those are legitimate reasons to say something, but I think sometimes kind of like with, again, going back to Anthony Bourdain is like, that' ; s someone' ; s livelihood. You' ; re going to blast them. That' ; s wrong because you can inherently...Like, if it' ; s like, if it' ; s one thing that you see rats everywhere, by all means, please call the Health Department, get them, you know, make sure it' ; s taken care of. But that' ; s someone' ; s livelihood and someone' ; s business that you' ; re like, " ; Hey, man, that guy' ; s stuff was trash" ; and you' ; re blasting. That' ; s not right. That' ; s you' ; re like, sometimes it' ; s better to just be like, " ; Hey, can I talk to whoever the manager" ; and just be like, " ; Hey, this was a right and whatever." ; And it' ; s...because it' ; s inherently training. If the person who made it wasn' ; t trained correctly or whatever, you let them know, you take that feedback, and they can change it, and you' ; ll make it better and it doesn' ; t have to be publicized shaming of someone. I think that' ; s what' ; s so bad is these...Some people, these keyboard warriors think it' ; s awesome to just blast someone. But it...no. It' ; s sometimes just the simplest things. Just let someone know at the establishment like, " ; Hey, this was overcooked or this wasn' ; t right." ; And 99% of the time because of hospitality, " ; Let me take it. Let me remake something for you. Let me make this better." ; That usually always happens. But to just outright shun someone, that' ; s wrong to me. |01:37:13| Brody Thank you. And that also is reflected in tipping and that culture as well. |01:37:19| Chhen Kind of like with tipping. I' ; ll give you a funny story. It' ; s funny, but it' ; s also very mean. Was that our bartender at work- this one guest told this other guest to not tip her because she' ; s just a servant, was her exact words. " ; Don' ; t tip her. She' ; s a servant." ; And we' ; re like we all looked like, " ; What? Did you say, servant?" ; And no. And so that' ; s kind of the thing. It' ; s kind of like. Like, wow, I can' ; t believe you would say such a thing? And thankfully her friend was like, " ; No. No. The tipping. You have to tip her. She got us great service. She took care of us." ; And the other lady walked off after. You know? But. Yeah. |01:38:12| Brody What do you think is the root of that mentality? |01:38:15| Chhen Kind of like what you and I talked about earlier is like the service industry is about service. You serve me, you take care of me and they sometimes feel as if that, you know, we are beneath them. I think that' ; s kind of always been the service industry, right? That' ; s always been part of the perception is that you take care of me and I' ; m always right. I' ; m the one paying for this bill, so you serve me. But I think that' ; s not all people. Don' ; t get me wrong. But it does... it happens from time to time. But about 90% of the time, everyone knows, you know, it' ; s a career path people choose and people, you know, it' ; s their livelihood and, you know, we want to make sure people can have a good home and eat. |01:39:03| Brody Well, I have learned a lot from you today and I really appreciate all of your, your thoughts. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you today that you' ; d like to to add to this interview? |01:39:15| Chhen No, I think I' ; m good. I think everything was said or whoever shout out I needed to shout out, I did. But no thank you for, you know, talking about this, I think sometimes as an Asian, you know, you don' ; t get to say the things you need to say or have a voice. I think this is able to not only give us a voice, but also give the industry another voice besides just TV shows and so forth. |01:39:45| Brody Well, thank you for participating and sharing your story. |01:39:47| Chhen Thank you. |01:39:48| Brody Take care. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Wai Chhen, April 26, 2022
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2021oh002_di_011
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
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2022-04-30
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audio
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56e093f3d37bed820191e6c714b12969
Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Vu Ly
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5.4 Interview with Vu Ly, August 1, 2022 2021oh002_di_018 00:50:32 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Facebook Vu Ly Betsy Brody mp3 oh-dig-audio_Vu_Ly_20220801.mp3 1:|14(4)|32(3)|48(15)|65(7)|83(2)|101(4)|118(1)|131(2)|144(7)|160(1)|174(3)|189(13)|205(8)|223(5)|232(11)|247(1)|257(7)|274(1)|287(13)|307(3)|326(5)|344(8)|363(13)|382(9)|401(11)|412(12)|432(9)|448(14)|463(2)|476(5)|487(9)|499(15)|515(6)|528(11)|547(9)|562(10)|573(10)|591(5)|606(12)|625(3)|654(3)|674(4)|685(16)|705(12)|721(10)|734(8)|759(7)|770(10)|786(13)|803(8) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/174337 Aviary audio 0 Introduction 30 Moving to Dallas from Colorado 101 Working in the hospitality industry and opening a coffee shop/speakeasy coffee ; speakeasy 32.74826751821143, -97.36062171164528 17 257 Origin story and growth of Asian Grub in DFDub Facebook group Asian food ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian hate ; Asian restaurants ; COVID ; Facebook ; food festival ; pandemic ; racism ; restaurants ; social media ; xenophobia 678 Coming up with the name Asian Grub in DFDub Asian Grub in DFDub ; COVID ; Facebook ; pandemic ; social media 879 Xenophobia and Anti-Asian rhetoric anti-Asian ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian hate ; Facebook ; racism ; social media ; violence ; xenophobia 1089 Division of labor among Asian Grub in DFDub Facebook group Asian Grub in DFDub ; Facebook ; social media 1420 Possibilities of monetization of Asian Grub in DFDub/Attention from the media Asian Grub in DFDub ; food festival ; food media ; KERA ; media ; social media 1580 Dallas Asian food scene today Asian community ; Asian food ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; boba ; Cambodian ; cooking ; culture ; food ; fried chicken ; Lao ; mom and pop ; restaurants ; sushi ; Thai ; Vietnamesel 1874 Thoughts about " ; authenticity" ; and Asian food Asian flavors ; Asian restaurant ; authentic ; authenticity ; cooking ; culture ; food ; mom and pop ; restaurant 2001 Role of social media and food media blog ; bloggers ; culture ; Dallas ; Facebook ; food ; food media ; food photographers ; influencers ; photography ; social media 2148 Food and culture authentic ; authenticity ; culture ; food 2229 Asain Grub in DFDub Food Festivals Asian food ; Bishop Arts ; culture ; Dallas ; entertainment ; food ; food festival 2518 Maintaining the spirit of Asian Grub in DFDub Asian Grub in DFDub 2662 Contrasting Asian Grub in DFDub with Yelp and traditional food media Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian restaurant ; food media ; restaurant reviews ; restaurants ; social media ; Yelp 2889 Reflections about the experience of creating Asian Grub in DFDub Asian community ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian hate ; community ; COVID ; Dallas ; Facebook ; food ; inflation ; racism ; restaurant ; xenophobia “Digging In” explores how the growth of the Asian community coincided with the rise of “foodie culture” in Dallas, leading to unique opportunities for economic and social engagement between and among different Asian immigrant groups as well as with the larger Dallas community. |00:00:07| BRODY This is Betsy Brody. Today is August 1, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Vu Ly. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you so much for joining me. |00:00:33| LY Thank you for having me. |00:00:34| BRODY Let' ; s start out. Just tell me where and when were you born? |00:00:38| LY I was actually born in Thornton, Colorado, but I' ; ve moved back and forth from here and Denver area like two or three times. And then the final move was freshman year, after my freshman year in high school because my dad got a job transfer. And then that was the final move. That was like almost 25 plus years ago. I think so. But my mom, all her sisters and mother lives around in Dallas and all. So as I' ; ve been back and forth, just those two. |00:01:09| BRODY Oh, the family that was in Dallas. What brought them to Dallas then? |00:01:14| LY Honestly, I never asked my parents that because it' ; s weird with Asian culture, it' ; s hard to talk about things. I mean, I can ask, but I don' ; t know and I never ask. I just know majority of because my mom has seven sisters. So and they all decided since grandma and grandpa decided to come to Dallas and then they all resided here. I got- and then some moved to like Oklahoma and whatnot, but we' ; re still in the surrounding states. So then I' ; ve been here ever since. |00:01:45| BRODY Big family Yeah. So what do you do? |00:01:47| LY Me? I work for a wine and liquor distributor called Republic National Distributing Company, and I' ; m on the wine division, so I handle accounts like 7-Eleven, QuikTrip, Walgreens, CVS, Valero' ; s. I just write orders and I try to pick some new items that we need to sell. And then I also have a coffee shop in Fort Worth called " ; Ampersand." ; It' ; s coffee and tea. It' ; s really great. And one of them is a speakeasy, it' ; s secret club in the back. So people can drink coffee during the day and drink liquor at night if they want. |00:02:18| BRODY Tell me about the secret aspect of the speakeasy. |00:02:20| LY You walk in. It' ; s a small coffee shop in the front and then there' ; s just the big wall. Looks like a wall. And you just push it, and you walk in and it' ; s just a big bar and there' ; s like a DJ booth and tables and everywhere. So and people, we actually open it now for people during the day to study. So it' ; s, it' ; s, it goes both ways. So we' ; re a club and coffee shop. |00:02:44| BRODY That' ; s really interesting. Is there a secret word? |00:02:46| LY No, we don' ; t. We just have it closed. And then when the, when people come, they just we have someone open the door for them. |00:02:52| BRODY So that' ; s really fun. So you' ; re in your real job and in there you' ; re owning the coffee shop in the food industry. Is that something that you' ; d always planned on? |00:03:05| LY No, it' ; s not, actually. When I was in college studying, it' ; s going to be a, I was going into anesthesiology. And then I went into dentistry. But then throughout college I was also throwing events and whatnot. So I was like, I don' ; t want to study anymore. And then I became like more entrepreneurial. So then I just took everything from there and just started like helping like friends with businesses, and I opened my own businesses and whatnot. So the end game for sure is to just open more businesses and whatnot. Just be your own boss. |00:03:42| BRODY So right. Were you drawn in particular to the hospitality sector? |00:03:47| LY Yeah. And then just having your own idea and just be able to put it out there for others and see how people respond to it or whatnot. And then support goes a long way too. So I' ; ve got a lot of my friends out there and family that would support. They come out of support no matter what. So I like that part. Just being your own person, doing your own thing without having to answer to anybody. |00:04:13| BRODY Fewer gatekeepers. |00:04:14| LY Yeah. |00:04:15| BRODY So we' ; re talking today because you are one of the administrators for a large Facebook group called Asian Grub in DFDub. Can you tell me a little bit about the origin story of that Facebook group? |00:04:29| LY Yeah. So basically, it started when COVID started and then all the xenophobia towards Southeast Asians and whatnot and it was hurting businesses throughout the country. Then we noticed it in Texas and whatnot. So it was when like when friends used to get it, when we used to get on FaceTime happy hour since we couldn' ; t see each other in person. So then we just started talking. It' ; s myself and four other women that I went to college with. So that' ; s Kimberly, Elaine, Nancy, and Tran. So we' ; re just talking like how businesses were being affected because a couple of them were also business owners as well. They have boba shops and whatnot. So like we had to figure out a way how to help other restaurants and ourselves and whatnot. And then they' ; re like, why don' ; t...One of them suggested, " ; Let' ; s just start a Facebook group and invite our friends. And then, you know, it' ; s it' ; ll be a one platform where everyone can come and promote their businesses and then tell other people about foods they find." ; So that' ; s really all it stemmed from. And we just started adding friends and then they added their friends and then just came built in. And now we have it' ; s been almost three years, so we have over 50,000 members now. |00:05:48| BRODY That' ; s incredible. |00:05:49| LY Yeah. |00:05:49| BRODY It' ; s so I mean, you were just talking, and we remember, you know, all of us at that point early in the pandemic, just, you know, there was no sense of how long it was going to go on. Like what were you kind of envisioning in terms of the scope and the scale? |00:06:08| LY Honestly, we really didn' ; t think it would become this big. It was just something for us to have for other people to help, you know, other Southeast Asian businesses and whatnot. So it' ; s gotten bigger than we thought. And hopefully we can make it even bigger because we obviously did our first food festival in May, which was really good. So we would like to continue doing more food festivals, which helps highlight more restaurants and it can bring in more revenue for them too and whatnot. |00:06:41| BRODY So that' ; s amazing. So just overall, what were the initial goals and mission of the page? |00:06:50| LY It was bringing awareness to others that don' ; t know about certain restaurants that it' ; s okay to go support these businesses. Despite what' ; s happening in the news and you' ; re hearing all the xenophobia, you can go to an Asian restaurant, you' ; re not going to catch COVID and whatnot. So I mean, you catch COVID anywhere. So just because it' ; s an Asian place, it' ; s not going to, you' ; re not going to catch it. But it' ; s also I thought I knew all the restaurants. And then because of this page, there' ; s all these " ; hole in the wall" ; ones that I' ; ve never heard of. Plus, it helps the older generation that' ; s not, doesn' ; t know social media. So this helps people know about their stuff because they don' ; t know how to promote it themselves. So that' ; s helped a lot of places just because of that. |00:07:39| BRODY So people were just posting about restaurants that they went to, that they liked and then it grew fast, right? So how did you manage that growth? How...were there challenges to that? |00:07:56| LY Oh, tons of challenges. So at first, we had it where if you post something, it automatically goes through. And then we kept seeing repeated posts because we like to keep the group organized and also positive. So we don' ; t want people to treat it like Yelp where like if they had a bad experience, they want to post about it. I mean, there' ; s many more they can do that on their own page or other platforms for that. We don' ; t want it for this group. So because basically your bad experience can be someone else' ; s good experience. And I was I' ; ve learned, and I always tell people that just because you like something doesn' ; t mean I have to like it. It' ; s good to me, but it doesn' ; t have to be good to you. But like people are like, " ; Oh, I did not like it. Blahblahblah." ; Why did you post this? Food makes people crazy, but it' ; s subjective. You know, you like what you like. So I mean, we just oh...I like. And then now we turn on...We have to approve posts now of course, but then we, I' ; ll get messages on the side like why? Because they want, we wanted this for just Southeast Asian but then they' ; re trying to other people wanted to promote like Indian and Pakistani places which I get it, because says Asian Grub, but because of the xenophobia on it, we focus solely on Southeast Asian and then they have their own groups too, which has a big following too. So I just try to tell them, I mean, some understand and then some doesn' ; t. It is what it is, but we like to keep it as just all positive and organized in that group. |00:09:29| BRODY So yes, some of the press about the page, you know, highlights the organization aspect of it, particularly the map. Can you tell me more about the map aspect? |00:09:40| LY Oh, yeah. The maps are just another tool for members to use. Just go to the Google Maps and we categorized everything. So from Thai food, Korean, and it has all the places. So you can just search it and then it' ; ll show you on a map where to go, info, address, and everything. It' ; s just another organized...Because the group is really kind of hard to use, like when you' ; re searching for something because, so say you' ; re searching " ; Thai food." ; Every word, every post has the word " ; Thai" ; in it, it' ; s going to pull up. It' ; s hard, like even just random. Like, even if it' ; s just the first two letters, like " ; the" ; in " ; Thai," ; it' ; s going to pull up. It' ; s just like, I don' ; t know why they haven' ; t, like, made that easier, but I do get it because there are a lot of repeated posts. Because then...So we do decline a lot of posts and we tag them in past posts just so it won' ; t be flooded with repeated, but at times where we can' ; t tag them, which we' ; ll let it go through. But that map is basically just for everyone to see. Get to find the place they want easier instead of using the search. |00:10:43| BRODY Right. Do you think had you known how big it was going to get, that Facebook would have been the platform that was ideal? |00:10:53| LY I honestly, yes, because everyone uses Facebook. Because we all started using Facebook when we were in college, and it was mainly for college students. Then they open up to everybody. Like even my uncles and aunts in Vietnam have Facebook now too. So, to me, it' ; s Facebook is the perfect and biggest platform for everybody to use because I think majority of people have Facebook. |00:11:18| BRODY Tell me about the conversation with your fellow founders about the name. How did you come up with the name? |00:11:27| LY They. So one of the ladies thought of it. They' ; re just coming up with names just during while we' ; re on FaceTime because Houston also has one called " ; Chow Down in Chinatown." ; So one is something that, you know, flows off the tongue. And then sounds like it goes together. So honestly, it' ; s one of them. I think it was Tran she just " ; Asian Grub" ; and then I think Elaine was like " ; Well, we' ; re in DFW, DFDub." ; So it just, it just came together organically. |00:12:01| BRODY So that' ; s really fun. It' ; s a great name. So it grew really fast. And what were the reactions initially from the public and from the restaurant owners. |00:12:14| LY From just members themselves? I always I hear a lot " ; I' ; ll go to your page a lot just to see what' ; s new or if I' ; m hungry." ; Or people were just on the page just scrolling, even if they' ; re not hungry. So for future times they want to go out and eat and they just want to see. And then from restaurants, I' ; ve got messages that we' ; ve helped them a lot, like from closing and whatnot, and they' ; ll offer us stuff. But I' ; m like, " ; You don' ; t have to offer anything as long as you' ; re staying open, your good." ; And I' ; m really glad it' ; s helped a lot of restaurants from closing. So yeah. |00:12:53| BRODY Do you have any specific stories that you were able to share? |00:12:58| LY There is a there' ; s this restaurant called Sprouts in Mansfield. He messaged one of us in thanking us about the group and whatnot. And he said when COVID was happening, he was on the brink of closing. But because of that group, he was able to stay open. He' ; s all, " ; Y' ; all can eat here for free, for life." ; I was like, " ; Don' ; t worry about it. You can give that someone else if you want," ; but, yeah. It' ; s, they' ; re all kind of like that where they' ; ve been on the brink of closing, or they thought about that. And then just one post just helps save the restaurant. |00:13:34| BRODY So because what is the reaction? So somebody posts and then I mean, what have you heard? |00:13:39| LY So this is what I try to tell restaurant owners when they post their own stuff, not to share from their own page. So a post, if a post is more personal, like organically from you and it' ; s not just shared, people react to it more and like they' ; ll go to more. Obviously, pictures help, but you got to put a caption or something and people will be drawn to it, especially if you' ; re mentioning that you need help or whatever, the response is very good. Like there' ; s one. Someone posted a TikTok of a sushi restaurant in downtown Dallas and they were about to close too. So they posted in the group. I think they got like over 500 likes and a bunch of comments. And then a few days later I heard it was like line out the door or hard to get a table. So it' ; s just the response has been very good for the post that has been made. |00:14:39| BRODY That' ; s really nice. The time period when you were starting the group and I suppose the reason you were having those conversations at all was because of the, as you said, the xenophobia. Can you talk a little bit more about sort of setting the scene? Like what were the things that people were saying? What were you, what were you reacting to that was out there in the world? |00:15:03| LY Yeah. It' ; s just because I have a lot of friends that are restaurant owners, too. So I know they told me what they' ; ve gone through. Just, it' ; s more like not what people say, but what they' ; re not doing. So obviously, just the xenophobia. They don' ; t want to support these Asian restaurants. I mean, what they hear in the news, they' ; re going to believe, and it doesn' ; t help that like the former president was like saying " ; China virus" ; and all that or whatnot. And then so and then a lot of political leaders, they don' ; t...They hear it, but they don' ; t listen, and they don' ; t sit down to think about how to help. So they' ; re like, they' ; ll say something that would make them look good, but they don' ; t there' ; s no action towards it. I don' ; t even think that bill, that the Asian hate crime bill, did anything. It' ; s just the bill they made. So but I mean the xenophobia towards Asians. I mean, it' ; s been happening even before COVID. It' ; s just there' ; s more social media now. So it' ; s more everyone can see what' ; s going on. I' ; ve seen so many videos that like way more than I have in my entire life within like, two years. It' ; s crazy. And it' ; s still going on. But they' ; re, like, attacking elderly, you know, women like, just randomly. Just like walking down the street, just punches someone out of nowhere. And then sometimes they get caught, sometimes they don' ; t. So, I mean, in my life, I haven' ; t really dealt with anything like too bad. Like, so I know one time I was at one of my accounts. I was looking at the food, and one of the workers was like, " ; What are you looking for?" ; I was like " ; Something to eat." ; And then she' ; s all, " ; We don' ; t have dog." ; It caught me off guard. So I didn' ; t know how to respond because it caught me off guard. So I just. said no, I' ; m just whatever. But I think if I processed it sooner, I would have said something. But I just. I like I want people to, like, stand up for themselves, too, because, you know, a lot of Asian people are soft spoken. We were taught that way, too, like, so it' ; s hard. But the younger generation, they' ; ll...They' ; re more bold and they' ; ll say something which is good. |00:17:22| BRODY And with social media, you know, and like the Facebook group itself, do you feel like that' ; s a way for people to stand up for themselves? |00:17:31| LY Yeah, it' ; s for, it' ; s a way for their voice to be heard. Because anything put on social media, Internet, someone' ; s going to find it and it could go viral. And all it takes is one reshare and another share not to share. It' ; s easier for us to get our voice out than trying even like doing a protest in downtown. I mean, I don' ; t know how much that really helps. I mean, people will see it, but I don' ; t know. Because I know they' ; ve done like protests in like New York and marches in Cali and whatnot. Here we haven' ; t really done anything. But social media to me is the best way, I think. |00:18:10| BRODY Kind of switching gears for a second from that topic, just nuts and bolts of the organization. It' ; s gotten so big. And, you know, it started with just a small handful of you as administrators or, you know, founders. How do you make it work? |00:18:27| LY So we designate each admin is has their own like job. But, well, that' ; s how it started. But all of them are all moms. I' ; m the only one without, like, kids or anything. So I can I kind of have more free time to look at the group more. And then Kimberly, she has some downtime too when the kids are doing something else. So her and I are monitoring it like 24/7 and the others, they' ; ll... We' ; ll just when we have, like when we have a, like a question, like should we post this or whatnot or what do you think of it? We have a little group chat, so we try to talk about should we do it or whatnot. And if we do, what would happen? Blah blah blah. So that' ; s basically the organization of it right now. |00:19:14| BRODY So it sounds like a lot. So earlier you mentioned you really like to keep the group organized and positive. |00:19:23| LY Yeah. |00:19:24| BRODY So, you know, every group online has to have a set of rules and things like that. What have been the evolution of the rules for this group? |00:19:33| LY So we don' ; t allow...We want people to be respectful to each other within the group too because we can' ; t read every comment on the posts. There' ; s just a lot. So people do report stuff and that' ; s the only time we really see. There' ; s people that do go at each other in the comments. |00:19:49| BRODY Really. Over things like what? |00:19:51| BRODY It' ; s over, like...or just be like someone posted, come here, blah blah and, and someone' ; s going to post or someone' ; s going to comment, " ; This place sucks." ; And then someone else would be like, " ; It might so to you, but blah blah blah." ; And then just people go at it. And then there' ; s like arguments over like dang, what was it? I think it' ; s just the type of food. Like, it' ; s just crazy in the comments, but we' ; ll try to monitor it, remove it, and then we put people like on suspension too. |00:20:30| BRODY Oh wow. |00:20:30| LY And then we kick some people out of the group too. So, and then we also have like 7000 pending because you have to answer all the questions in order to come into the group. So there' ; s a lot of people that don' ; t answer because there' ; s a lot of like fake pages too that try to enter. |00:20:45| BRODY So what are you trying to vet by asking the questions? |00:20:49| LY So like there' ; s three questions. One was, do you live in DFW? How often do you visit if you don' ; t? And then do you own a business? So if those...Answering those questions basically takes away like the bots and the fake pages. So. Plus it makes...If you actually read the rules, if you answer the questions. |00:21:11| BRODY So not a robot. |00:21:12| LY Yeah. |00:21:14| BRODY What have been some of the biggest challenges or surprises of running this group. |00:21:18| LY Challenges is just trying to, like, keep it the...Like, if I let one post in and I don' ; t let another one in. I have to be, I have to try to make it fair with everyone. Because someone' ; s going to be like, " ; Why did you allow this post in? But not this one." ; But there' ; s also like, I can' ; t remember every post that goes through. So sometimes...We don' ; t like to have repeated post, especially if it' ; s an event and there' ; s multiple restaurants doing it. So one restaurant' ; s going to try to promote it. And so we try to like space it out. So we don' ; t want it cluttered. But then I' ; ll get messages on the site like, " ; Why haven' ; t you approve this yet?" ; And then sometimes we' ; ve accidentally approved posts like, like say an Indian restaurant and then someone' ; s gonna be like, " ; Oh, why was mine?" ; This. I was like, " ; I' ; m sorry. It' ; s just so many." ; Like, sometimes I' ; m just approving. I don' ; t... Sometimes I don' ; t even read because there' ; s so much. But there' ; s probably, like, towards the end, like, something like, negative is like, goes from positive and negative. Like, it' ; s like, " ; I really like this, but the service sucked," ; or something like, you know, I mean, I get you need good service, but I don' ; t want to, and we don' ; t want it in this group. So with that kind of like comments and stuff. |00:22:38| BRODY So how many hours do you think you spend a week? |00:22:41| LY Ooh. I would say a week? |00:22:44| BRODY Yeah. |00:22:47| LY Man, it probably feels like a part time job, honestly, because even like during...So for work, I drive through, I go to every account of mine and then when I' ; m like walking into the door, I' ; ll be checking it and approving because we get posts like every I say like almost five, five to ten minutes, everyone' ; s posting. And especially if someone' ; s asking for something. Sometimes I see like three hours later when they' ; re asking about where to go for lunch in this area. But I didn' ; t see it in time. I was too busy with work now and even that late at night before I go to bed, I' ; m checking it. It' ; s a free part time job. |00:23:26| BRODY Right. And it' ; s a service. But that people are expecting some service from you immediately. |00:23:33| LY Exactly. Yeah, because I always get, " ; Why haven' ; t you, I need you to approve this right away." ; |00:23:40| BRODY Have you all ever talked about finding a way to make it more of a real, like, paying job? |00:23:46| LY Yeah, we do want to monetize it. Like at the food festivals for sure. Like this, the first one we did just because it was for AAPI month and then it' ; s just because it was the first one. We didn' ; t charge any admission. We didn' ; t even charge any of the vendors either. So it' ; s all free, everything. So but we had sponsors too that helped us out, which was really great. But yeah, soon for sure, the food festivals. And then we have a website as well and we want to open that up to other cities outside of Texas, so they can use that as a hub to sell. |00:24:25| BRODY Follow the model. |00:24:25| LY Yeah. |00:24:26| BRODY No, that' ; s really interesting and I hope, I wish you well with that. So because you' ; ve learned a lot about the, you know, what works and what doesn' ; t work and what some of the challenges are. What have been some of the surprises that you' ; ve experienced? |00:24:42| LY The amount of attention we got, especially from the media, because we' ; ve had new stations contact us for interviews like, KERA was one. She came to the food festival actually and interviewed us and then Channel 5 News. Texas Today. And it' ; s just basically the exposure. But it' ; s a lot of people outside of Texas that heard of us so people from New York. Cali, they' ; ve joined the group, too. So it' ; s nationwide exposure. That was a big surprise. |00:25:15| BRODY So yeah, that is that' ; s really a far reach and a lot of media attention as well. Why do you think it drew such media attention? |00:25:26| LY It' ; s a good question. I think just is they saw how well the group was helping other restaurants. And then I, I think they cause a lot it helped during a lot of these news stations were reaching out to restaurants too because the xenophobia and whatnot, or just in general small businesses hurting during COVID. So then they would mention our group too. So it' ; s just the mention of a mention and that' ; s how to me that' ; s I think how it got to where it is. |00:25:59| BRODY And it' ; s also a good story of community building. |00:26:02| LY Yeah. |00:26:02| BRODY Right. During a time that was very difficult to form communities. |00:26:06| LY Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. No, it' ; s shocking or not shocking, but it' ; s great to see that so many people are coming to support everybody. Like, so that' ; s one of the greatest things about the group. |00:26:19| BRODY The positivity. So I want to ask you a few questions about the Dallas Asian food scene in general. How would you describe, you know, the Asian food scene in Dallas today? |00:26:32| LY To me, it' ; s gotten better and better each time. It' ; s...I mean, it mainly used to be just like Vietnamese food with sushi and whatnot. But now people are getting more exposed to Thai food, Laos food for sure. That' ; s one of the, that' ; s one of the cuisines that doesn' ; t get a lot of like exposure because not a lot of people know about it. Because I didn' ; t start eating Laos food till, I got to college because I met Lao friends and I was like, " ; That' ; s really good." ; So and then just all different types of cultures like Cambodian food now too. So now we have a whole range of everything. It' ; s still a lot of Vietnamese food, but now we' ; re getting like stuff that people aren' ; t exposed to normally. So it' ; s growing and it it' ; s going to keep growing. Right. |00:27:25| BRODY Yeah. So I was going to ask you, what do you see as the future of Asian food in Dallas? |00:27:30| LY I see. I see there' ; s going to be a...I see a lot of fusion stuff and I just see more Asian food branching out to other cities that don' ; t have a lot of like, let' ; s just say Rockwall or whatever. And just the ones further out, because I' ; ve been seeing businesses open up there, which is really random because there' ; s not that big Asian community, but it' ; s working for them. So as our city expands out more into the smaller cities and whatnot, that' ; s...I see the food growing out that way, too. |00:28:07| BRODY Interesting. Earlier you mentioned the phrase " ; hole in the wall." ; And I know a lot of you know the press about the group talked about its attention to, quote, mom and pop restaurants. So I wanted to ask you about, sort of, within this Dallas Asian food landscape that your group focuses on and that you' ; re part of- what is the range of type of, you know, small business mom and pop to, you know, fine dining high end? |00:28:40| LY Yeah. So for fine dining, there' ; s really not that much fine dining for Asian. There' ; s only maybe a good handful, but everything else is either family, within the family or whatnot. So there' ; s restaurants and like Arlington, they' ; re older than both of us. Like they' ; ve been there forever, which is crazy. So we love the " ; mom and pop" ; ones because to me, the " ; mom and pop" ; ones, they' ; re they really are truly just focused on the food and nothing else because they don' ; t know social media and whatnot and the aesthetics and whatnot. They just make good food. So that' ; s why a lot of people love a " ; hole in the wall," ; " ; mom and pop" ; ones. It' ; s just more authentic and it' ; s good. But like all the other ones, all the friends that open up business, they, it' ; s like a new idea and whatnot. So like, for example, Okaeri Cafe, it' ; s like a little Japanese cafe. Michelle' ; s the owner, so she' ; s- her and her partner- they visited Japan and they just basically brought the and then they put in a new their own concept, their own spin on and whatnot. So and then there' ; s Ricky' ; s Hot Chicken. He' ; s been working on his- you had it. He' ; s been working on his recipe for like I think about two years. And he let friends try it and whatnot. And then he finally opened up. He has, he opened up a second location in Arlington. So it' ; s like a lot of people just putting their own spin on things that they think. |00:30:08| BRODY So what about the contrast between sort of the " ; mom and pop" ; and the types of places you' ; re describing and then the Asian based franchises? Places, you know, like Boba places or things like that that are franchises? |00:30:25| LY So the Boba places, there' ; s basically almost, almost a boba place on every corner, almost. It' ; s not like Houston. Houston- it' ; s like so many like two feet from each other. But yeah, the majority of all the places there are franchise and then there' ; s a few that are their own. But there all, all the franchises are different people too. They' ; re not all one person. But and then the just trying to think of like how to...To me, like I said, just, it' ; s not like the franchises aren' ; t better, but obviously, like I said the " ; mom and pops," ; they' ; re just more focused on the food. That' ; s the only way I can really answer that. The compare and contrast. |00:31:15| BRODY Yeah. I mean, it' ; s an issue that comes up in almost every conversation that I have about Asian food with different perspectives on that question of authenticity. You' ; re describing the " ; mom and pops" ; as being, in your view, sort of focused on the food and perhaps more authentic in your view. What does the concept of authenticity mean to you? |00:31:41| LY Basically, it' ; ll take you to that country and it feels like you' ; re in Vietnam when you' ; re eating it because it tastes just like it or whatnot. To me, that' ; s what authenticity means. It' ; s just they' ; ll take you to that place. So and then you can tell through the food how hard they worked on that recipe or whatnot through all the flavors. |00:32:06| BRODY Interesting. A lot of this during this time also, you know, restaurants that aren' ; t specifically Asian, you know, have learned from, or borrowed the, some of the flavor profiles of Asian food. What do you think about that? |00:32:23| LY I don' ; t mind it because there because there are say, quote-unquote non-Asians that they' ; ve been to Vietnam, and they studied it. And then there' ; s other places that will...that will try to put out like a pho dish, but it' ; s not pho. Like it' ; s not true to what it' ; s supposed to be. I get you' ; re trying to put your own spin on it, but you can still put your own spin on it. But it still has to be true to what it is. And then there' ; s sometimes where they won' ; t even spell it right, like banh mi. Supposed to be- they spelled that wrong. And then it was a whole thing like and then people were trying to correct him, but he wouldn' ; t, the chef wouldn' ; t listen, or the owner wouldn' ; t listen. But there' ; s nothing wrong with other people trying to, like, mimic or, you know, put it out there. You just got to be respectful and respectful to it to make sure it has just the same ingredients and whatnot, you know? |00:33:15| BRODY Right. Yeah. It' ; s a tricky area, too, now. So we' ; ve been talking about Asian Grub in DFDub you and its impact on this area and restaurants in this area and how much it' ; s helped. What about your just general views about the role of social media when it comes to food in general? |00:33:43| LY Yeah. So obviously there' ; s food photographers out there. There' ; s, I know a couple and they do great pictures and people eat first with their eyes. That' ; s why you always see at the restaurant, there' ; s people right when the meal comes out and before everyone eats, their cameras are out. They just want to show people what they' ; re eating. And it' ; s...It just gives a platform. Without...It' ; s something to let people know without actually saying something. So like I said, people eat with their eyes. So and then social media. If you, if you do like have good editing skills or whatnot or good ideas and you can...It makes people want to come in just because of what like a reel that you did very well too. So that' ; s why there' ; s a lot of food bloggers. People invite food bloggers to the restaurants first because they have a wide reach. So if they' ; re there and they see what it then people are going to migrate there to and check it out. |00:34:39| BRODY So do you see yourselves as influencers? |00:34:42| LY No. Not really. No. We' ; re just here to help the community. I mean, I never really influence anyone. Just there for people to check and get good food and see what' ; s out there. So. |00:34:54| BRODY Well, 50,000 people joined the group. So, in terms of the role of this group in the DFW food landscape, I think this is kind of what you' ; re talking about here. What is your and your friends' ; philosophy going forward? |00:35:12| LY It' ; s going to be the same thing just from the start. Support, enjoy good food and we...Positivity is always a good thing. Everyone' ; s always going to have a negative thing, but there' ; s a time and place to say the negatives and whatnot. And people just got to learn. There' ; s not one thing in the world everyone' ; s going to agree on. Like, you can' ; t tell me one thing that everyone likes. So some people like the sun. Some people like at night, you know, stuff like that. So just they just got to remember, food is subjective, and you like what you like. |00:35:52| BRODY Speaking of that, what role do you think food plays in sort of communicating or educating about culture? |00:36:00| LY It helps people learn about the culture, where it came from because and also, so it goes from you ate something well, like you like a lot. You might want to try to make it at home. So you look up the recipe. And then a lot of the recipes have an origin story, like this came from my mom' ; s recipe from Vietnam or Thailand, whatever. So that helps other people learn about where it came from and whatnot. So food is...It' ; s another language within itself without ever saying it, speaking or anything. So that' ; s what I think it is. |00:36:38| BRODY Do you think eating food from other cultures than your own helps you connect with people from that culture? |00:36:46| LY Oh yeah, for sure. Because you can meet someone randomly, like while you' ; re out and just be talking about food, like, " ; Oh, I had this, this is really good." ; Or I' ; m trying to think of this dish and then they might know it. Food does connect people. Even if you don' ; t know each other, you could just eat. People could talk about food all night long. |00:37:10| BRODY For sure. Okay, I want to hear more about the food festivals and sort of the not online parts of this group. |00:37:18| LY So like the back end and how we did it. |00:37:21| BRODY How you did it, what the goals are. |00:37:23| LY So yeah, so we wanted to do, we talked about doing a food festival maybe like a year and a half ago. So it took that long to get it done. So we had to look for space obviously, but we wanted something central. And then we also had to think about if you wanted to charge vendors, charge admission or whatnot. So obviously if we wanted to charge admission, we had to, we had to find a place that was enclosed. So if we couldn' ; t, then you have to rent fencing. Which- fencing is expensive by square footage. So at that time we decided we' ; ll just scratch that, make everything free since it' ; s our first one. And then we had to figure out what vendors we want as well and how many. So we basically did one. We did ones that were like very popular in the group and then others that weren' ; t well known. So we had a blend of both which helped a lot. So and then our good friends at Krio, they offered their space up, which is really great. So we were able to put it there and then just and then we wanted, then we decided we want entertainment too. So we actually had some like singers like Jonavi was one of them. She reached out to us and determined we had some DJs and then Rising Phoenix Lion Dance company. They came and did a little like 20-minute routine. They' ; re like the number one Lion Dance company in Texas, especially in DFW. |00:38:50| BRODY Where did you hold it? |00:38:52| LY It was in Bishop Arts at Krio spot. So right in front of their, what would you call it, their big patio, whatever. And then the parking lot, we closed the street off and everything. Then just getting permits was a tough one. |00:39:08| BRODY I' ; m sure. |00:39:08| LY Especially with Dallas. They' ; re tough. So, yeah. |00:39:11| BRODY Tell me about that. I mean, none of you were in that line of work. And this is... |00:39:17| LY Kimberly. She' ; s actually familiar with permits and whatnot because of her job. So she knew like kind of what to do. So basically, we just had to- we basically went on their website and just looked at the rules and who to contact and whatnot. Just takes forever to get permits. And we wanted the street closure too because it would be more safe. And luckily, we got that because that helped the flow of everything. But then food vendors had to get their own permits and whatnot. And then if you' ; re a food truck, that' ; s a different permit. And if you weren' ; t a restaurant, a brick and mortar, it' ; d be a different permit, there' ; s a lot, but we got it done. So yeah. |00:39:56| BRODY So was it a good turnout? |00:39:57| LY It was a very...I think throughout the whole day it was over 1000 people throughout the whole day from noon to six. And I asked my vendors to please not sell out, but they sold out by like 3:00, 4:00. I was hoping that by 5:00, they' ; d be sold out, but a lot of them just sold out quick. |00:40:15| BRODY Right, because there was so much demand. |00:40:17| LY The only the bad part about that day was the heat. And it was...Because I wanted to do it where it was cooler like early in the year, in a year, but then it was AAPI month. We have to tie that in, which was perfect. So I mean, other than the heat, everything was great. |00:40:31| BRODY And do you see yourselves doing another one every year? |00:40:34| LY Yes. I don' ; t know what location yet, but we will. We want to do at least once a year, at least so. And I want to turn it into a big night market, too, because I know if you' ; ve been to OC, they have a night market. It' ; s like 150 vendors and they only charge like five bucks admission and then they do like once a month, I think. |00:40:55| BRODY So it' ; s that' ; s yeah, that' ; s a, that' ; s a really good idea. And there' ; s nothing like that. |00:41:00| LY There is not. Yeah. So I think it' ; d be great if we can get that done. |00:41:04| BRODY So do you see events like that as sort of enhancing the group or vice versa? |00:41:12| LY You know, enhancing for sure, because it gives them some, it gives the members more than just going on the page to like to look at food and talk about it. So at least with the festival, it brings all members, even nonmembers, just to one area. They can enjoy tons of food at once, too. And then know about these places that they' ; ve never heard of. |00:41:33| BRODY So do the vendors hand out, like cards or things like that? |00:41:39| LY I don' ; t think they did for this one, but I mean, their social media is, are always. Plus on our Instagram page, I highlighted each restaurant, each vendor, like each day. So people can see that. |00:41:53| BRODY So and always go back in. |00:41:55| LY Yeah, for sure. |00:41:58| BRODY Did you group well, do you ever talk about your responsibilities that, that you feel now that you have all these followers and have built this community. |00:42:06| LY Yeah. We just...Responsibility of keeping, maintaining what we' ; ve been doing, keeping the same keeping same throughout, like positive to make sure we don' ; t go against what we' ; ve been doing. So then I think that' ; s the biggest responsibility of the group. Just make sure it stays maintained and just doesn' ; t one day, just we stop and like what happens now? So it' ; s a thing we' ; re going to have to keep like keep going and going. |00:42:38| BRODY So it sounds just unrelenting. There' ; s, every day, every hour, and a lot more to do. And plus with your ideas for growth or expansion into, you know, bricks and mortar and also other cities that... |00:42:54| LY Yeah, the other cities I really like because it just gives them one platform because, you know, they don' ; t have what we have. So Oklahoma City restaurants can promote on our page if they want. And you know, because we do get posts for people asking about restaurants and they' ; re visiting Hawaii, New York, we have to decline them because we' ; re DFW based. I can' ; t. At first, we did open it up like when we first started to like any city just, you know, we' ; re supporting. But then as we were like, we got to just make it strictly DFW. So yeah, the website would be good for people who travel outside of DFW. |00:43:34| BRODY And I mean, would it, will be challenging to maintain the spirit and the quality? |00:43:39| LY For... |00:43:40| BRODY For if you were expanding to other cities. |00:43:42| LY No, I don' ; t think it would be too much of a challenge. I mean, of course, maintaining make sure the, you know, on the back end like, you know, all the editing and whatnot on the website, that' ; s something different. But overall it would help because we do get a lot of out of state questions, out of DFW, even for Houston. And then we do since we' ; ve ended up in the early stages, we have let those kinds of posts go through. It' ; s still there. So if we see a question, will just tag them in that one. But then because in the group, when you like, comment on a post, it goes to the top so everyone can see it. So that helps too. |00:44:22| BRODY Yeah. Earlier you mentioned that you explicitly, you know, did not want this to be a Yelp type scenario where people were, you know, posting reviews. And that makes me think about sort of the relationship of a large group like yours that has so much influence with traditional food media. What are you know, what are your thoughts about that? |00:44:46| LY So I know a lot of businesses hate Yelp. Like they can' ; t stand them. I mean, I still use Yelp just to find places or I' ; ll look at pictures, but I don' ; t ever really, I don' ; t read the reviews because I like to...I like to I would like to go there and have my own opinion on it if I like it or not. So and then at least with the Facebook group, with the positivity. We always tell people, " ; If you have a problem with what happened at the restaurant, just try and talk to the owner yourself." ; Message them. You don' ; t have to put in that group. So I think Yelp just kills businesses. Because even like, oh, there' ; s one time, my friend' ; s seafood restaurant, she, that a customer gave a bad review on Yelp because she wasn' ; t giving chopsticks for her rice. I say it' ; s a seafood restaurant because they serve rice just like gumbo or whatnot. And then I was like, you know, she left a bad view just because of that. I was like, " ; So Yelp is evil." ; |00:45:53| BRODY What about the sort of traditional food media? Like, you know, the magazine reviews, newspaper reviews, things like that. Where do you know, sort of what are your opinions around that and your group' ; s relationship with that type of critique? |00:46:08| LY They...So you' ; re like sort of a blogger goes in. |00:46:12| BRODY Yeah. Or like, yeah, like a reviewer from the Dallas Morning News or something like that. |00:46:17| LY Yeah, I' ; ve actually read a lot of those articles. I haven' ; t seen it' ; s been all good for those type of that type of media because it' ; s highlighting the restaurant, of course, and then it' ; s letting people know about it because they have not heard of it. I haven' ; t seen anything bad from those types. |00:46:35| BRODY So they' ; re different than Yelp. |00:46:37| LY And yeah, they' ; re basically just highlighting the store, the restaurant itself and giving the backstory of the owner. So, I' ; ve seen all positive stuff for like and stuff like that. |00:46:49| BRODY I don' ; t know if you can say, but in in your administering this group, what have been some of the finds that have most excited you, that you think places that you didn' ; t know about that you found out about through this group. |00:47:01| LY The there' ; s an egg tart place in Richardson, Maria' ; s. Oh, yes. Maria' ; s Egg...something. And she- they put in a pizza box like 24 egg tarts, always fresh, so good. And then there' ; s a bunch of I mean, I, I' ; ve eaten around a lot, so there' ; s a place that I tell people about in Haltom City called Asiannights. It' ; s Lao-Thai restaurant, sweet family. Super good. Their crispy pork belly with the pork sauce- really good. So I like to, I like to tell when people ask for suggestions, I' ; ll just give a small list of stuff that are popular within the group that aren' ; t known yet, and then it' ; s up to them to try it. |00:47:47| BRODY So yeah, I' ; ll bet a lot of people ask you personally for suggestions. |00:47:50| LY Oh yeah. I get texts from friends all the time. Instead of them wanting to use the group, they' ; ll just ask me. |00:47:56| BRODY So in case you' ; re keeping secrets or something. |00:47:58| LY Or if I' ; m on regular, my own page and I' ; ll see a friend ask about whatever, and then I' ; ll just tag them in a post in the group. |00:48:07| BRODY So that' ; s great. Looking back over the last few years and these experiences, what are some reflections or what have you learned from this whole unexpected experience? |00:48:22| LY I have learned that people love food, and they' ; ll argue over food. But also support is really big out here in DFW. You would have not known if this group was not created because normally, they would just support their friends or whatnot. So and then we' ; ve only had, like I said, Yelp or Google reviews to go to figure out what to eat. So that' ; s the biggest surprise. And like the support, that everyone gets together for a good cause. |00:48:55| BRODY Yeah. That' ; s I mean, it' ; s really interesting because of the emphasis on positivity and that they' ; re not actually restaurant reviews, it' ; s a whole a genre that doesn' ; t exist otherwise. |00:49:10| LY Your own. Instead of just putting it on your own Facebook. That' ; s what the group is for. Just to let people know about it. " ; I love this place. You know, someone else is going to love it, too." ; |00:49:21| BRODY What do you think the impact of this group has been? How have you changed DFW? |00:49:28| LY The community got stronger, for sure. And then just, it' ; s just amazing how many businesses it saved, like, I don' ; t know. There probably been, there' ; s been a few closures. But I think there would have been way more closures. But also, it helps people understand inflation and whatnot. And there' ; s a like- people will complain about, " ; Oh, this got more expensive." ; And you got to understand, everywhere is expensive, now. It' ; s hard to get things though, it is what it is. But just helps people understand kind of the restaurant side, too. So that' ; s what' ; s good about it, too. |00:50:08| BRODY So it' ; s really interesting. Well, I am so happy that I got a chance to talk to you. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you today that you' ; d like to add to this interview? |00:50:19| LY Honestly, you asked all good questions. Everything. |00:50:22| BRODY Thank you. |00:50:22| LY Yeah, it was great. |00:50:23| BRODY Thank you. And I really appreciate your work that you' ; re doing and that your voice is included in this project. |00:50:30| LY Thank you very much. |00:50:31| BRODY Thank you so much. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Vu Ly, August 1, 2022
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2021oh002_di_018
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Facebook
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2022-08-01
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audio
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bb01d50b1188295fd5a58cd9e92043bb
Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Tony Nguyen
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5.4 Interview with Tony Nguyen, April 26, 2022 2021oh002_di_010 01:06:22 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Grocers, Asian American Tony Nguyen Betsy Brody m4a oh_dig_audio_Nguyen_Tony_20220426.m4a 1:|14(8)|32(1)|46(14)|59(14)|73(11)|86(10)|102(5)|121(10)|143(1)|160(11)|184(10)|201(9)|214(8)|231(4)|244(4)|258(3)|271(2)|281(14)|294(11)|307(8)|319(7)|332(13)|345(5)|359(19)|373(10)|386(7)|399(9)|423(14)|443(13)|458(10)|473(7)|490(4)|506(4)|518(11)|537(10)|552(7)|570(8)|586(14)|599(13)|616(1)|628(8)|645(9)|663(12)|679(7)|693(3)|708(14)|721(6)|737(10)|756(12)|771(12)|784(16)|802(3)|812(11)|829(2)|849(6)|863(3)|876(12)|892(5)|903(1)|926(5)|942(4)|963(4)|978(1)|990(14)|1006(10)|1015(14) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/163031 Aviary audio 5 Introduction Asian American grocers ; Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Texas--History 37 Nguyen family arrives in Texas from Vietnam and establishes Vietnam Plaza Asian grocery ; Bedford ; Carrollton ; Catholic ; Church's Fried Chicken ; Dallas ; diverse ; entrepreneur ; fish ; fried chicken ; groceries ; grocery store ; Haltom City ; Vietnam ; Vietnam Plaza ; Vietnamese 503 Relationships with suppliers for Vietnam Plaza/Mentoring competition ; entrepreneur ; mentor ; relationship ; Vietnam Plaza 639 Growing up in Vietnam Plaza advertising ; Asian community ; Asian grocery ; cleanliness ; community ; family ; fish sauce ; groceries ; grocery store ; hospitality ; oyster sauce ; rice ; Vietnam Plaza ; word of mouth Asian American grocers 824 Work with The Halal Guys, Seven Leaves Cafe franchise ; restaurants ; Seven Leaves Cafe ; tea ; The Halal Guys ; Vietnamese 990 Reflections on " ; mom and pop" ; shops and site selection business ; demographics ; entrepreneur ; expansion ; growth ; marketing ; mom and pop 1219 Working at Lisa's Fried Chicken Church's Fried Chicken ; family ; family run restaurant ; fast food ; fried chicken ; hospitality ; Lisa's Fried Chicken ; Vietnam Plaza 1470 College and working in business telecom/2008 financial crisis business ; UT Arlington 1710 Playing poker during college gambling ; poker ; Texas Hold 'Em ; Webber Kang 1859 Diversifying into real estate Beard Papa's ; real estate ; The Halal Guys 1952 Role of business in the community/Asian community Asian community ; business ; entrepreneur ; expansion ; fast casual ; Goldee's Barbecue ; growth ; mentor ; mom and pop ; Seven Leaves ; The Halal Guys ; trends 2361 Involvement with Asia Times Square Asia Times Square ; Asian community ; Asian grocery ; Asian restaurant ; community ; community hub ; cultue ; family ; food truck ; Grand Prairie ; grocery store ; Hong Kong Market ; hub ; Koreatown ; Matthew Loh ; mentor ; newspaper ; real estate ; Seven Leaves 2652 Changes in Asian food landscape Asian flavors ; Asian food ; omakase ; palate ; social media ; western palate 2743 Impact of social media photography ; pop ups ; social media ; The Halal Guys 2785 Reflections on the idea of " ; authenticity" ; American halal ; appropriation ; Asian-American food ; authentic ; authenticity ; Chinese restaurant ; food ; Irving ; Muslim ; P.F. Changs ; The Halal Guys 3103 Characteristics of the Asian community in North Texas airport ; Asian community ; California ; connection ; diverse ; diversity ; Sandoitchi 3279 Partnership with Sandoitchi " ; sando" ; pop-up expand ; expansion ; Goldee's Barbecue ; growth ; mentor ; Sandoitchi ; social media ; Uchi 3700 Events and cultural holidays Asia Times Square ; food trucks ; Ramadan 3764 Lessons and reflections on success and happiness Asian community ; business ; Catholic ; customers ; Dallas ; Our Lady of Fatima ; Vietnam ; Vietnam Plaza |00:00:04| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is April 26, 2022. I' ; m interviewing for the first time Mr. Tony Nguyen. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Hi, Tony. Thank you for coming and sitting for this interview. Let' ; s start out. Can you just tell me where and when you were born? |00:00:42| Nguyen Sure. I was born in Bedford, Texas, in 1983. |00:00:50| Brody What brought your family to Texas? |00:00:52| Nguyen What brought my family to Texas? My father came to Vietnam after the fall of Saigon in 1975. Initially, he actually came into California and quickly moved down to Texas. And since then, we' ; ve been here. |00:01:10| Brody Did you move to Bedford? They moved to Bedford. |00:01:14| Nguyen Actually, originally, I think his first house was on Portman Avenue in Fort Worth, and eventually he was able to move to Bedford, Texas. |00:01:24| Brody Do you know what your dad was doing in Vietnam? Before? |00:01:28| Nguyen My father was...My father was in the Air Force. He was part of the the the pit crew. |00:01:39| Brody Great. And then once he got to Texas, what line of work did he get into? |00:01:47| That...That initially, he was a jack of many trades in Vietnam. I know that in California, before they came to Texas, he was in, he attempted auto sales. I believe that didn' ; t work out too well. And so that' ; s what actually drove them to Texas. From there, he just got a job and worked his way up to become a GM of a Church' ; s Fried Chicken. And through working there and saving up, he saw the need for an Asian or Vietnamese grocer just because him, the family, their friends, everybody he knew that was coming over and pouring over. And there was a problem and he wanted to provide a solution. So that' ; s how Vietnam Plaza came about. |00:02:33| Brody Oh, tell me about Vietnam Plaza. |00:02:35| Nguyen Vietnam Plaza. I would like to think that my father is the pioneer in DFW for Asian grocers. He was the first multi-unit Asian grocer-owner. Again, it was called Vietnam Plaza. He had, I believe it was four locations and they were just spread around the city. And that' ; s how I was able to learn and speak Vietnamese, as a matter of fact. That was my daily babysitting club, if you will. |00:03:05| Brody Had...You mentioned he was at Church' ; s for a little while, but how...Had he ever been involved in any kind of food oriented business before? |00:03:15| Nguyen Well, I can tell you from his treacherous journey. Well, I wouldn' ; t say it was treacherous compared to a lot of other journeys I' ; ve heard of people fleeing from Vietnam. But while he was in the Air Force, he was create...was able to create connections with pilots and in those relationships allowed him to board a plane when things got tough. And so before they actually got to America, they were in. Where is it? It slips my mind. I' ; m going to get back to where they... they were in Guam. They had to...They stayed in Guam for about a year. And so I can say, honestly, that' ; s when they got their restaurant exposure, because while Dad was in Guam helping out and fixing all the planes, hoping to hop on a plane to America, he also had brought his wife, Mom, and her siblings. And so they were actually...They ended up for a year selling food on the air base to all the the the Air Force members. |00:04:28| Brody Tell me your mom and dad' ; s names. |00:04:30| Nguyen Frank Nguyen or Phan Quoc Nguyen and Mary Oanh Thi Nguyen. |00:04:38| Brody So do you? I mean, you were probably very young, but, you know, in the family, are there stories about sort of how they got, got the idea and executed building the Vietnam Plaza. |00:04:56| Nguyen My father. From what I' ; ve learned, he was quite the entrepreneur even in Vietnam. You know, listening to people speak about him today, they' ; ll always reminisce about him being the first and one of the only ones that they knew that had a motor vehicle. He had some bars, I hear. He had a very popular roller skating rink once upon a time. So it sounds like he was a social butterfly and also an entrepreneur kind of throughout life, and just hearing stories from even all my aunts and uncles and his siblings. He, he took on everybody' ; s weight. |00:05:45| Brody So the business grew. Then if you had four locations of Vietnam Plaza. Was it all in the family? How did that happen? |00:05:54| Nguyen Mom ran a store, Dad ran a store, had an uncle run a store, and I had one of my brothers run a store. And, that' ; s what, that' ; s what we knew for about 20 some odd years. |00:06:07| Brody Who were the main customers? |00:06:12| Nguyen The Vietnamese community for sure certainly supported us. But then it became just again an Asian grocer. So we had pockets of everybody kind of come and just because of the different types of fresh fish that you could buy here versus there, things of that nature. |00:06:29| Brody Right. So it sounds like not just Vietnamese customers after a time and, you know, other Asian groups and were there also sort of native Texans? |00:06:42| Nguyen Oh, absolutely. And just again, we' ; re in...Those stores were in very... what' ; s the word? Diverse demographic areas. And so it was a hodgepodge. |00:06:58| Brody That' ; s interesting. So these stores were in Fort Worth. |00:07:05| Nguyen Haltom City was his first. And then there was Carrollton and Dallas, and I think there was another Dallas location as well. |00:07:15| Brody Great. How large was the Vietnamese community when you, you know, when he, when your dad started the stores? |00:07:26| Nguyen Hmm. That' ; s a good question. I wish I knew. I wish I knew population numbers, that one. I really can' ; t tell you. Yeah. |00:07:32| Brody No, but was it small? |00:07:34| Nguyen I can certainly say it was small because it was it was basically the congregation, the Catholic congregation nearby, you know. When a church was formed, where there' ; s a church, or where there' ; s a church, as long as there' ; s grocery, there can be civilization, you know. |00:07:52| Brody And that' ; s that was it. So do you remember if the stores were, you know, like a place that maybe people came after church or congregated or? |00:08:03| Nguyen Oh, gosh. I mean, again, he was one of the pioneers, so there wasn' ; t a lot of varieties and options to go visit. So if you wanted the spices or if you wanted the different cuts of fish that you couldn' ; t get at Tom Thumb or Target or what have you, this is where you would go initially. |00:08:23| Brody Yeah. And how did he get the supplies? Where? Do you remember where he had suppliers ? |00:08:28| Nguyen Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He' ; s got suppliers. I' ; m actually still good friends with some of them. I pass it on to their sons. And so but a lot of these hubs are in California and Houston. So a lot of the stuff is imported from Asia into California and then from there distributed across the nation. |00:08:46| Brody Right. And that' ; s...And so those relationships still exist for you? |00:08:49| Nguyen Oh, absolutely, for sure. |00:08:52| Brody So. |00:08:53| Nguyen Um, so I, I would like to think that. I try to stay connected with this world because it was my dad' ; s and I guess the other, the all the other store owners still respect him. And so, you know, anytime I see any of the other grocery store owners, they' ; ll make sure we' ; ll always connect and say hi and have some conversation. |00:09:16| Brody Yeah. So your dad was first and it sounds like, you know, with the growth of the community that then suddenly, you know, there were more stores opening, you know, different owners that that you still have relationships with. But did your dad help those people as they were starting their stores or offer advice? |00:09:37| Nguyen I' ; ve heard stories of business owners who are successful now and all of them, several of them will say, your dad helped me and guided me. He' ; s the one that gave me the loan. Just a lot... You know, he played banker, advisor, friend, supporter, business partner. He wore a lot of hats. |00:09:57| Brody Yeah. |00:09:58| Nguyen I think we' ; ll will continue to say that throughout the interview if it' ; s about him. |00:10:02| Brody Yeah, that' ; s well, that' ; s you know, a lot of people would think that, you know, that another store opening up is competition. But it sounds like it was more, you know, mentoring and training. |00:10:15| Nguyen And I think the same way. I' ; m also in the food, food industry and I always welcome synergy. I always welcome synergy. |00:10:25| Brody Yeah. Why? Why is that your philosophy? |00:10:28| Nguyen It' ; s more options. You' ; re not always going to be everybody' ; s number one option, but if you' ; re an option, you know you' ; re now an option versus not being an option. |00:10:38| Brody So did you grow up working in the stores? |00:10:41| Nguyen Oh, yeah. |00:10:42| Brody Yeah. Tell me about what that was like. |00:10:44| Nguyen It was...I was there from 8 a.m. to about 9 to 10 p.m. typically. That' ; s every summer and every weekend, Saturday and Sunday. And so, I mean, and of course, it' ; d be cleaning up the place, picking up to make sure it' ; s tidy, and then we' ; re going to go and typically fill up every aisle, you know, face everything forward, which coincidentally now, you know, I' ; m even teaching my sons when they walk into the store, they know to go push in every chair and they know to pick up all the trash and then turn every bottle forward. And they understand it just looks better. So I know this is going to be second nature to them, to you for sure. |00:11:29| Brody Do you remember what the biggest sellers were at Vietnam Plaza? |00:11:32| Nguyen Do I remember? I mean, fish sauce is huge. It goes in majority of dishes, fish sauce and oyster sauce. And rice. Goodness, rice. Everybody needs their bag of jasmine rice. |00:11:50| Brody Do you remember much about advertising? Did your, did, did your parents have to do much advertising? |00:11:57| Nguyen I don' ; t recall seeing too many articles in newspapers or any mailers. I think it was all word of mouth. It' ; s just, again, being one of the first and few Asian grocers. You know, people kind of talk about you and where to find these certain ingredients. |00:12:17| Brody In your recollection or just from family stories, what, if any, were the challenges that your family faced in, you know, that the early days of building? |00:12:31| Nguyen Mm hmm. What challenges that they face? Oh, gosh. I think everybody faces challenges. And no matter what time it is and any era. I know that. I know that there was always theft. Right? There was always insurance claims. When you have, you know, a thousand customers are walking in, somebody is going to act like they fell whether they did or not. And so I recall hearing a lot of those things happening pretty frequently. |00:13:08| Brody Any issues with sort of neighboring stores or the, you know, the neighborhoods that the stores were? |00:13:15| Nguyen You know, I mean, he brought, he brought the community together, if you will. I mean, people got what they needed there. And he was the happy man that greeted you at the door. Mom was the happy lady that greeted you at her door, depending on what store you went to. And so cleanliness and hospitality. I think that ended up rubbing off on me indirectly too. And never did I think I' ; d be in the line of work that I' ; m in now. |00:13:43| Brody Yeah. Tell me about that. What do you do? Tell me about your business. |00:13:48| Nguyen Well, right now, predominantly, my time is spent with the restaurants that we represent, which is The Halal Guys, a franchise from Manhattan, Seven Leaves Cafe, which is a coffee and tea concept from Orange County. I' ; d like to also say that that was created by a family of immigrants that had fled and moved to California. And this is just something they all collectively created. It' ; s not often that we get to hear that there was a Vietnamese creator of, in this realm, I guess in the in the coffee and tea realm. It' ; s typically Taiwanese. |00:14:29| Brody Right. So, so those are both businesses that are founded, created, you know, by other people, and then you' ; ve brought them into this area. Tell me how you decided to go that route as opposed to maybe starting your own restaurant from scratch. |00:14:52| Nguyen Sure. Restaurant talk. I chose The Halal Guys and Seven Leaves because of its simplicity. Of course, it has a- quite the following, but for me as an operator, I want to think of what is the easiest and best. You know, I don' ; t want personally, I don' ; t want to be like a Cheesecake Factory where there' ; s a million things to offer. I just think that it' ; s tough to master a million different things. And so, landing The Halal Guys, again, we chose that because there' ; s literally only two entrees you can choose from- a sandwich or a platter. And so, I don' ; t know. I think that it' ; s just easier to execute when there' ; s less to do in practice. |00:15:42| Brody And same with Seven Leaves. Was that a similar kind of logic that led you to... |00:15:49| Nguyen Yes, and a few other things. I don' ; t think that they' ; re your typical drink company. I love the way they are and who they are and what type of people they are as far as just being good humans. I like their philosophy. On every cup it says " ; Be the change you wish to see in the world" ; by Gandhi. And, being able to partner with somebody that aligns with your beliefs is rare. And I think that I did find a partner that, you know, I really love representing and just everything about them from the product to the people. |00:16:27| Brody That' ; s great. So how, you know walk me through how you, you know, decide where to open a restaurant. |00:16:37| Nguyen Site selection. This is, this is the one thing I think many I' ; m going to call it. I' ; m going to just categorize it " ; " ; mom and pop" ; shop owners fail to truly focus on. They think that if they market well enough or if they have a good enough product, that people will come. I don' ; t think most " ; mom and pop" ; shops should think that way. I believe that there' ; s too many pockets in this city, especially nowadays, that' ; s getting a diverse mix. So the question is, how are you going to get these people to your door? So when you ask me about site selection, you' ; ve really got to know the density. You know, what is your target density? We need to know that there' ; s customers around there. Otherwise, are you truly good enough for them to visit? And if so, how frequently are they going to visit? Demographics. You need to know who your customer base is. You really I mean, anybody. There' ; s always going to be a predominant, you know, customer base, whatever it may be. And if that' ; s what it is, that' ; s who you should be by. And so I think that demographic plays a part. Visibility plays a huge part. We can get really technical when it comes to talking about like stories and development. Yeah, it' ; s not so much history talk though, but I can go on and on about stories and. |00:18:09| Brody Just even thinking about, you know, what you brought up here. The sort of the difference between the types of stores that you' ; re opening versus a " ; mom and pop" ; type shop like, you know what, what are your thoughts about the main differences between even just sort of this, the style of place. |00:18:33| Nguyen The successful brands and the successful business owners, they lead by the numbers. " ; Mom and pops" ; they probably just cook something really well. And so that' ; s what they focus on. But they didn' ; t control the labor that went into it. They maybe didn' ; t control the cost that went into it. You open the business for business, not necessarily just to please people. And so on the business side, I think that " ; mom and pops" ; and what keeps them titled under that realm is that they haven' ; t became a expert or professional at running the business behind, you know, the store. |00:19:19| Brody How did you discover your aptitude and interest for sort of scaling up. |00:19:26| Nguyen By wondering where is all my money? Selling a fortune and not having much to show for it? And by working backwards, we had different bookkeepers and accountants, and we paid for all of these services. And while they might have prepared, you know, the books. Was it truly accurate or something accurate enough for me to make big decisions on that could change these percentages. It wasn' ; t, you know, in hindsight, the best bookkeeping is either done in-house or somebody that knows that business well that maybe has interest in that company, not just another account for an accountant. |00:20:19| Brody Walk me through your story, then. So you were working at your parents' ; stores and then after high school, what did you do? |00:20:31| Nguyen Oh, I was working with my parents all into my teens. As I got a little older, I was hoping that they would pay me, start to pay me. So I made a request and, and of course, Dad said, " ; Sure. Sure." ; And when the day came and I was supposed to get paid, I remember he paid me pennies on the dollar. And so I told him I asked my uncle for a job, who owns Lisa' ; s Fried Chicken, which he' ; s got 30 locations here in DFW. That was Dad' ; s little brother. Earlier, I talked about Church' ; s Fried Chicken. He was actually we' ; ll call it the, the predecessor, the person that took dad' ; s GM position at Church' ; s while Dad went on to open Vietnam Plaza. My uncle, Uncle Tom, Tom Nguyen, then took over Church' ; s Fried Chicken, and probably shortly thereafter, Dad was able to save enough to help him open his first store, which they called it Lisa' ; s Fried Chicken. And as I mentioned before, there' ; s about 30 of them in Tarrant County now. |00:21:40| Brody Tell me about Lisa' ; s Fried Chicken. So, first of all, your Uncle Tom and your dad both had their experience at Church' ; s. Was, is it that style of chicken? |00:21:53| Nguyen Yeah, it' ; s I call it, you know, I compare it to Church' ; s Fried Chicken or Popeyes or KFC. It' ; s just fast fried, fast food, fried chicken. But I think what sets them apart is the marinades and the seasonings. Unlike Church' ; s and Kentucky and Popeye' ; s, his chicken is marinated overnight. And so that' ; s what makes it really juicy and flavorful. And their prices typically are more competitive than the big chains. And so he' ; s been able to really thrive across Fort Worth, which is being able to serve a delicious product at a really good price. |00:22:33| Brody That' ; s great. Did you ever yourself work at a Lisa' ; s? |00:22:36| Nguyen I did. So when dad wasn' ; t willing to pay, I had to jump over to the uncle who was willing to pay. So I recall being 13. I was, and when I was 13, I started working Lisa' ; s Fried Chicken until probably 18. But that was a good experience because I watched him grow units as well. You know, I never...I was just sent out to typically stock the stores. If somebody opened a store, they' ; d just send me there and say, " ; Alright, fill up the shelves." ; And so I' ; d spend a few days just doing that nonstop. I never realized it would be a part of life and my life later on. |00:23:14| Brody Yeah. What were the main lessons that you learned back then from that experience? |00:23:21| Nguyen Organization. Organization is key. Really maximizing your space. And everything just always has to look and feel right. You know, I always, then and now, my uncle and my father always they wanted me to see as a customer. |00:23:46| Brody That kind of ties back to what you said earlier when you were talking about your dad, but we were talking about hospitality. What is your, sort of vision for, you know, what it feels like to be a customer in one of your stores? |00:24:02| Nguyen It should be an experience at the very least, even if it' ; s just a simple greeting. As store owners, we can' ; t control too much what' ; s going on outside of the four walls. But hopefully you' ; ve got a grasp of what' ; s going on inside of the four walls of your store, which is, again, the cleanliness, the hospitality, the fresh product or whatever it is that you' ; re pushing or selling. |00:24:30| Brody So. You did not get paid by your dad. So you went to your uncle, to Lisa' ; s, learned some lessons there. Then after that, what was the next step in your path? |00:24:42| Nguyen What was the next step? My brothers. My brothers. I' ; m the youngest of six. And I had three older brothers that owned a business telecom company. And at their highest point, they employed about 96, 97 people as well. They were selling business telecommunications, phone systems across the nation. And then in 2008, when everything tanked. Then it was that they were the unfortunate ones that went with it. And so and that taught me a lot too, that. That taught me not to put all my apples in one basket. That' ; s why I diversified the way I have. I watched my brothers lose. One of the oldest one had the Ferrari and the million dollar mansion and the boat. He had all that and got, you know, after 2008 he didn' ; t have any of that. |00:25:40| Brody Right. So your lesson was to diversify. |00:25:44| Nguyen I mean, one- Be humble. Two- diversify. And three is just you can' ; t be comfortable. You know, I got a lot of lessons from looking in hindsight and seeing how they they were working. |00:26:00| Brody And how did you diversify? |00:26:04| Nguyen How did I diversify? Goodness. I mean to just...I mean. If restaurants went down, I would still have an income. Right. We dabble with real estate. We dabble with crypto. We dabble with a lot of other different things. And so, I don' ; t know, like Dad, I' ; m busybody. I can' ; t stay still. I think that just having worked with all these different people from my uncle or my father to my uncle to my brothers. Seeing adversity, seeing growth, seeing change. Some being in the ghetto. Some being in the business world. Obstacles are a dime a dozen. You just got to learn how to manage that and you can do anything. If you can' ; t handle the obstacles. You create actually more obstacles and walls instead of trying to be resilient or trying to conquer. |00:27:02| Brody So it sounds like you learned a lot on the job and just sort of observing what was going on. |00:27:08| Nguyen I learned it through observing. Sure. I don' ; t think I ever had a one on one conversation with my dad, with my uncle, or with any of my brothers regarding business. |00:27:17| Brody Did you study business? |00:27:19| Nguyen No. I dropped out of college after the first year. I realized I would rather just work. |00:27:24| Brody Yeah. What? Where were you? |00:27:28| Nguyen Where was I? I went to UT Arlington. |00:27:33| Brody And you decided that learning on the job was probably more your speed? |00:27:37| Nguyen I graduated high school early, as a matter of fact. I got bored and I wanted to go make some money. I' ; d rather go to work and figure something out. You know, high school was fun. I loved it, but I had enough of it. And so I took night courses to leave early and then immediately went to UTA and TCC and filled up. I mean. I recall getting A' ; s in every class, but I knew it wasn' ; t for me. I was like, I don' ; t need this piece of paper. |00:28:05| Brody Right. So what did you do instead? |00:28:08| Nguyen I went to go work for my brothers. I went to go work for my brothers again. At that point, they were selling a little over $1,000,000 in phone systems a month. And so that gave me the taste of like, I guess you could call it a corporate world, you know, offices and cubicles and phone calls and different departments. |00:28:29| Brody And then the next jump was into operating restaurants. |00:28:34| Nguyen I actually started playing poker. |00:28:36| Brody Oh. Tell me about poker. |00:28:38| Nguyen Started playing poker. Well, I wanted to go out and work and make more money. I found myself at that time, Texas Hold' ; em started taking off and I was playing. That was also during the first year of college and...I remember just always playing and winning. And so one of my cousin' ; s boyfriends, Webber Kang, was an amateur pro at the time. And so his life fascinated me. So I asked him, " ; Can I just go around and watch you?" ; You know? And here I was only playing $20, 20 bucks, 20 bucks, and he' ; s doing the two, three, four or $5,000 tournaments. And I' ; m just like, I mean, " ; I don' ; t even have that much money?" ; But I would love to watch. And so I watched him for about 6 to 8 months, and it was one day when he asked- he had won a big pot- and he said, " ; Hey, you want to play? I' ; ll buy you in." ; And he gave me my first $2,000. |00:29:34| Brody How did that go? |00:29:36| Nguyen I won. I won. I set goals in my mind. You know, I want to be the guy that can lose it all. Control is big too. Control is really big. And I think I got that from my father. He never raised his voice. He never got angry. He just thought about the problem and how to fix it. And that was that. I think that' ; s how I' ; m able to deal with life. This is problem and solution. That' ; s it. Don' ; t dwell over it. |00:30:04| Brody Did the poker experience offer you anything that comes in handy now? Tell me about. |00:30:11| Nguyen Absolutely. It allowed me to be aggressive. We' ; ll call it...Excuse the terminology, but " ; it grew a set of balls" ; would be how I would describe that. You know, willing to gamble and risk a lot for a high reward. You know, I think that gave me the edge in the business world. People may describe me as too aggressive, but I think that I turned out just fine. You know? I think I could be doing more, so I don' ; t even think I' ; m that aggressive. But again, I think the high stakes gambling allows me to push the envelope where some would swallow and flinch. I would kind of smile and be ready. |00:30:56| Brody Interesting. So the businesses that you have now. Is it The Halal Guys and Seven Leaves? Or is there more that you' ; re involved in? |00:31:07| Nguyen Yeah, there is. |00:31:08| Brody Yeah, tell me about that. |00:31:09| Nguyen We have a Japanese bakery called Beard Papa' ; s. That' ; s also a franchise. That' ; s in Frisco. We are currently working on an industrial park in Kennedale, Texas. That' ; s going to be...I feel that in business and everything that I' ; ve come across, from watching my parents and watching my uncle transition now from stores to real estate and just networking. It' ; s all pointed me towards real estate. And so I had to kind of see and learn. And so now we are attempting our first it' ; s 180,000 square foot flex space industrial park. |00:31:55| Brody Wow. And you' ; ve never done anything like that before? |00:32:00| Nguyen I mean, well, I' ; ve built now almost ten stores. I' ; ve worked with architects, I' ; ve worked with engineers, I' ; ve worked with the planners, I' ; ve worked with all of them, and I' ; ve stood next to the GC to build all of them. So. |00:32:16| Brody So you' ; ve gathered... |00:32:17| Nguyen I would naturally kind of just learned a lot of this and now I just got to take the next step, which is be the one turning the dirt, not just and working with the trades. And so... |00:32:30| Brody That' ; s great. That' ; s really interesting. In the businesses, the food oriented businesses that you have, what do you see, you know, your role in the community or those businesses' ; role in the communities that they' ; re in? |00:32:44| Nguyen Well, for the Asian community. I' ; m hoping that I can show everybody. It' ; s possible. I' ; m still young. I am trying to create awareness of what I' ; m doing, not for my own gain, but again, to to let people know. You just got to focus and stop saying you don' ; t have enough time. You know, everything' ; s effort driven. And if I can just be an example and show it and talk about it and make it happen, then that' ; s what that' ; s what I would love to do, you know. Like a while ago, I told you, I went to Goldee' ; s Barbecue, and I learned that it was Asian owned guys. I was so excited. And I told them, guys, if you want to talk numbers, if you if you' ; re, you know, I understand you' ; re busy, but if you want to talk business, come talk to me. I would love to see you scale or I' ; d love to just see you succeed. I think there' ; s...There' ; s not enough. There' ; s too many people taking high risk when they should at least take the time and give the effort to learn more about it and what it is that they' ; re trying to accomplish. |00:33:55| Brody What do you think, some of the, I guess, barriers that people who have, you know, maybe a " ; mom and pop" ; shop.. |00:34:04| Nguyen Exposure. Exposure. They don' ; t know any better. |00:34:08| Brody Okay. So the... |00:34:12| Nguyen Or, they don' ; t want to put out the effort to make it better. |00:34:16| Brody Right. And do you think there' ; s a...unwillingness maybe to to go bigger for fear of maybe the, you know, the product changing or the experience changing or something like that? |00:34:36| Nguyen What' ; s the question? |00:34:37| Brody Well, I' ; m just thinking about like a lot of the restaurant owners that I' ; ve been talking to are, you know, a single, you know, they have a single restaurant that' ; s maybe a neighborhood favorite or, you know, it' ; s you know, it' ; s one special thing. And I wonder if, you know, when you talk to people who have a restaurant like that or a store like that, if, you know, what are they worried about in terms of growing? |00:35:08| Nguyen Well, a lot of these probably these owners are probably owner operators, first of all. There lies a big hurdle in itself. How, can you truly think about expansion when you' ; re so busy being tied into the system that you created, which probably isn' ; t seamless? I' ; m not saying anybody' ; s seamless, but there' ; s a right process and there' ; s certain parameters you have to be in within for percentages. It' ; s questionable where they' ; re at or if they even know how to come up to that value. Does that answer? |00:35:47| Brody Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It' ; s a, there' ; s a lot that, a lot to learn. |00:35:53| Nguyen Oh, gosh. But see again, sure, you might want to think about scaling, but now that you' ; ve tied yourself into the system and you have to cover for the manager, or you see that the portioning is not right...You know, a lot of owner operators too, aren' ; t able to delegate as easy. That' ; s one big reason why a lot of people can' ; t scale either. They don' ; t trust. And I get it. It' ; s hard to. |00:36:22| Brody Right. Especially when it' ; s something you' ; ve built from scratch. |00:36:24| Nguyen In order to scale, you must be able to delegate and trust that whoever you have in that position will execute and sell. |00:36:35| Brody So do you have any explicitly Asian oriented businesses? |00:36:42| Nguyen Explicitly Asian oriented. Only Asians come in? |00:36:47| Brody No. Or just where the sort of the character of the business itself is, you know, something Asian specific, like Asian food or Asian... |00:36:59| Nguyen I mean, The Halal Guys sells halal food and that' ; s Mediterranean. Seven Leaves, all of our products I would say would hit a Vietnamese palate. |00:37:11| Brody Yeah. What does that mean to you? |00:37:13| Nguyen What does it mean to me? Well, we have certain desserts and fruits and drinks that I typically don' ; t taste or have anywhere else. And so I can kind of experience that at Seven Leaves. And we get that often from a lot of our patrons. It reminds them of different desserts from their countries as well. |00:37:34| Brody Yeah. How much in sort of communicating those tastes and you know, like what you' ; re doing at Seven Leaves, for example, do you, do you feel like you' ; re educating the customers who come in? |00:37:49| Nguyen Oh, gosh, I well, I also love Seven Leaves because of their name. You know, as a business owner, I want something that will be accepted by all cultures and nationalities. And in my opinion, when you have certain names that are very Asian, like you' ; re just you might not draw other nationalities. And so Seven Leaves being more generic, you know, I knew it could hit a Caucasian and then Hispanics, what have you. |00:38:24| Brody Back to the numbers you were talking about earlier. Yes. What do you think are some trends in the market as relate to Asian food today? Since you have an eye on sort of the big picture. |00:38:39| Nguyen The trend right now? Well, I can tell you, everybody is trying to create the real quick QSR type concepts, the quick service restaurants where you' ; re probably going to pick a lot of things in front of you, like it was fresh and you assemble that yourself. That certainly seems to be taking off. And it' ; s the speed of service versus a sit down. It seems like people don' ; t want to sit anywhere that long anymore. |00:39:09| Brody Why do you think that is? |00:39:10| Nguyen I mean, no idea. There' ; s is there' ; s too many things to preoccupy a human. |00:39:21| Brody So I know you' ; re involved with the Asia Times Square. Can you tell me about that project? |00:39:27| Nguyen Sure. Asia Times Square. I got to befriend Matthew Loh, who...who has been an inspiration and a mentor to me as well. He was able to...He has and now controls a couple of the Hong Kong supermarkets in DFW. He' ; s built shopping centers all around them. And so he' ; s actually one person that I' ; m learning a lot of real estate from and just getting mentorship from as well. He is focused on bringing the community together and connecting cultures. And so I really love being a part of Asia Times Square. We do the marketing for Asia Times Square as well, and our Seven Leaves drive through location is also at Asia Times Square. I just believe in his passion of really connecting cultures. |00:40:28| Brody How is that development going to do that? What is it? Tell me about the development. |00:40:32| Nguyen Oh, gosh. It' ; s got so many different restaurants and businesses. It' ; s, it' ; s a full blown mall slash shopping center slash grocer. He' ; s built a big outdoor plaza that can host big outdoor movies and a lot of food truck, food truck nights, have a lot of different vendors from being Thai to Laotian to Cambodian to Vietnamese to Korean. And so there seems to be an event going on every month out there. And so he' ; s working it. It' ; s actually his focus. And it' ; s, and it' ; s, it' ; s coming together. I think, in my opinion, Asia Times Square would be the busiest Asian center in DFW in the years to come, for years to come. |00:41:22| Brody Where is it located? |00:41:23| Nguyen It' ; s in Grand Prairie, Texas. |00:41:25| Brody So. And he envisions it, and you envision it as being a hub for the community? |00:41:33| Nguyen Absolutely. Absolutely. Right now, the other hub would be Old Denton Highway. You know, both sides. There' ; s a big Korean-dense area and then on the other side of the highway would be a more mixed Asian-dense center, where, in my opinion, most people congregate. I can say that' ; s probably got the most foot traffic of any center in DFW. Asian, Asian-wise. |00:42:02| Brody Yeah. What is a typical, let' ; s say, a Saturday at one of these centers? What does that feel like and look like? |00:42:11| Nguyen The hunt for parking is ridiculous, if that can explain anything. You know? But I mean, what does it feel like? It feels great because you can have you can have food from so many different types of countries that are represented over there and then fulfill yourself with all sorts of sweets and goods. So... |00:42:33| Brody Is it typically pretty family oriented? |00:42:36| Nguyen It is very family oriented. |00:42:39| Brody In Asia Times Square, for example, or these other centers that you' ; re talking about, you know, obviously, there' ; s a lot of food. Are there other businesses included there that, you know, that maybe help people who just moved here from, let' ; s say, Korea or Vietnam or somewhere like that, to... |00:43:03| Nguyen I can' ; t say that there' ; s any specific businesses geared for that there. I mean, there' ; s, there is bank, there' ; s a couple of banks, there' ; s furniture stores, there' ; s novelty stores, there' ; s a clothing store. It' ; s pretty mixed use. |00:43:19| Brody So lots of different things. I was just thinking back in the earliest days, like probably with your dad' ; s store even, you know, things like job boards and video rentals of movies from back home and things like that. Newspapers were things that, you know, people came to those grocers or markets to, you know, to buy their food, but also to have a little connection. Just wondering if the modern version of that in Asia Times Square or places like that, includes those kind of, you know, newspapers, video rental, things like that? |00:43:58| Nguyen There' ; s definitely there' ; s definitely the the bulletin board or everybody sticks their card or their fliers or what have you... |00:44:12| Brody Talking about, kind of switching gears here about food in general, about Asian food in the Metroplex, what are some changes that you' ; ve noticed in, you know, since you were involved from the beginning? |00:44:30| Nguyen The diversity, the willingness of non-Asians' ; palates to explore. And just the power of social media introducing it to them and creating, you know, a curiosity or a desire. That' ; s certainly helped. |00:44:49| Brody Now, talking about palates, especially non-Asian palates. You know, what are some examples of changes in that that you' ; ve noticed yourself. |00:45:02| Nguyen I personally grew up in Grapevine-Colleyville, Texas, which is 95% Caucasian. And so, you know, I grew up with all of them and I know what they would and wouldn' ; t eat. And, back then they wouldn' ; t eat it. Now they probably would eat it. And this is from a variety of just from noodles to seafood to raw foods and, you know, omakase type stuff, things like that. I think people are more adventurous or less standoffish. |00:45:38| Brody Yeah. Why? |00:45:39| Nguyen I don' ; t know why. Maybe social media. |00:45:42| Brody Yeah. So in your experience, what are the key ways that social media has impacted people' ; s thinking about... |00:45:51| Nguyen People eat with their eyes. People eat with their eyes. So, I mean, as long as you can purvey the message that it is really good or put out enough effort to just get the food in there in their mouth somehow. Yeah, we used to do a lot of samplings and random pop ups just to give away food. And it wouldn' ; t be a full portion, but it would be, you know, enough for you to understand what we were about. And I think that' ; s what' ; s driven our catering business for The Halal Guys. |00:46:20| Brody Oh, really? Yeah. That' ; s interesting. On the question of authenticity, right? That' ; s a it' ; s a prickly, prickly concept when we' ; re talking about, you know, foods from other cultures and, you know, and what is perceived as authentic, where what are your feelings around that whole idea? |00:46:46| Nguyen What is authentic? I think that' ; s, that' ; s....the definition, I think it' ; s kind of lost. I think. If you ask, is this an authentic dish? I mean, at what period are you talking about? What date and time are you from? You know, because I know that everything changes. There' ; s certain ways to make basic dishes that everybody eats. I don' ; t have any restaurant that would sell those types of dishes. I don' ; t think there' ; s lots of restaurants that thrive on the at home pots that mom always has on the stove. I think, I think that' ; s a tricky one to ask or say just because it' ; s more or less " ; Is it good and fresh?" ; Not " ; Is it authentic?" ; What do you mean, " ; Is it authentic?" ; I don' ; t know. That' ; s. That' ; s a tough one for me. |00:47:48| Brody Yeah, for sure. I think it' ; s... |00:47:51| Nguyen I can' ; t connect with " ; authentic." ; |00:47:53| Brody Yeah. I mean, and it' ; s...It comes up because there are a lot of people.... |00:48:00| Nguyen I can tell you, a lot of people will say " ; This is not authentic, you know, halal food." ; |00:48:07| Brody Right. And what' ; s your answer to that? |00:48:09| Nguyen We' ; re not trying to say, well, we were never in the Middle East, nor was the brand, you know, the operators, the original owners were from Europe or Egypt, I mean, and. And no...We are, we like to call ourselves American Halal. If you' ; re asking me, are you authentic? All right, so then. And that' ; s how I came to that...to my answer earlier, is because then ask well, " ; What is American Halal?" ; Because that never existed. |00:48:38| Brody New category. |00:48:39| Nguyen Right. So to me, it' ; s authentic. We' ; re the first to say we' ; re American Halal. |00:48:44| Brody Yeah, I mean, that' ; s a thing to think about. I mean, initially, right? You saw, you know, people being introduced to new cuisines and, you know, through, you know, a taste of this or and then there was, you know, a kind of a broadening of the palate, maybe like with, you know, fusion cuisine. And so it sounds like what you' ; re saying is this is a different category, an innovation that is particularly American. So do you think that that kind of logic can be applied to, you know, not just The Halal Guys, but, you know, other types of especially Asian food. |00:49:31| Nguyen You have to ask that again. |00:49:31| Brody Yeah, no, it just. Just wondering if there' ; s, like, Asian, like, Asian-American food that you would characterize as, like, different category than Asian food or, you know, different category than Vietnamese food. |00:49:44| Nguyen Sure. I mean, you have. What is the one? That, that Chinese restaurant that' ; s been around? P.F. Chang' ; s. Is that authentic? I mean, they sell day and night. They' ; re doing great. Is that authentic? You know, as long as you have a product that people like and you, you' ; re creating an experience and you' ; re executing. That is...How important is authenticity? |00:50:12| Brody Yeah, that' ; s an interesting thing to think about. Right. Then on the flip side of that, like the idea of appropriation. Right. That' ; s another sticky concept that comes up a lot in when we talk about food from other cultures. And I think in in your case in particular, because you' ; re, you know operating restaurants that are all over the place, you know, that are, you know, based in California or based in New York or whatever. How, you know, how do you or do you come into any kind of criticism for... |00:50:51| Nguyen And I mean, of all the brands we represent, only The Halal Guys. Just because they' ; ll ask me, are you Muslim? And why are you selling halal food? |00:51:01| Brody Right. Right. And how do you respond? |00:51:05| Nguyen I tell them I love their food. I love halal food. And I tell them the...Why I enjoy halal food and they don' ; t have too much more of resistance afterwards. A lot of Indians initially in Irving, because I lived in Irving and I was looking for a site, different sites. They, they were really serious about why are you doing it? You know? |00:51:30| Brody Do you think it matters? |00:51:32| Nguyen No, no, no. Not at all. Not at all. Again, if you can really just execute, do whatever you need to do. |00:51:42| Brody Yeah. If you could use just a couple of words to describe to somebody who' ; s not from here, the Asian community in North Texas, what would you say? |00:52:10| Nguyen I' ; d say we' ; re only a couple of steps behind California. Contrary to people' ; s belief of us being far behind. We have quite a lot of people here. As a matter of fact, East Coast, West Coast Asians are all pouring here. Amongst everybody else as well. I think we got a nice hot pot of mixed, a mixed community of Asians. We have it all and, and the young, yet the younger generation for example Koreans don' ; t really mix with Chinese and others or you know, a lot of those barriers are being broken down right now in modern day. |00:52:53| Brody Yeah. Why do you think they' ; re being broken down or how? |00:52:57| Nguyen Again, just a lot of these venues and centers and music groups and, you know, anime, it' ; s just, it' ; s opening the world' ; s eyes, you know. |00:53:08| Brody Built those connections. |00:53:09| Nguyen Right. |00:53:12| Brody A lot of people who have businesses, especially food oriented businesses, say that one big factor in Dallas that helps is the airport. Does the- having that DFW airport and having it be sort of a hub make any difference in your operations? |00:53:32| Nguyen I don' ; t feel like I get...I know a lot of people will go to The Halal Guys if they used to frequent New York and now they have an opportunity to try it outside of New York. Same for Seven Leaves if they' ; ve only ever had in California and they' ; re from the East Coast. At least now you can get it from Texas. I can' ; t...I would never definitively say " ; Yes. The airport carries us." ; I would say the airport is amazing. We did consider putting The Halal Guys in there, and then COVID had happened. So a lot of those talks had died. But the airport is quite a generator for those that are in it indeed. |00:54:16| Brody Or even, you know, people say getting fresh fish, for example, you know. |00:54:22| Nguyen It' ; s all flown in so you can pick it up over there. Yes. I' ; m not in that. |00:54:26| Brody Yeah. Not doing any fish right now. |00:54:29| Nguyen No, no. If I did...Sandoitchi is the last project that I do that' ; s going to have anything to do with food. |00:54:37| Brody Really? Well, tell me about that project. |00:54:40| Nguyen Oh, Sandoitchi. Sandoitchi is a Japanese " ; sandos" ; concept. They create sandwiches, desirable sandwiches, that look good. And they' ; ve got a great marketing team that' ; s been able to truly spread their awareness and creates a lot of engagement. Anyhow, these guys have been just popping up for the last two years and throughout Houston, Dallas, and California. I reached out to them probably within the first two or three months of when they started, and I had really liked what they were doing. So I called a meeting and I asked them, " ; Hey, you know, if you guys ever want to scale and go to the brick and mortar side, please call me. Consider me as a partner." ; That didn' ; t work out. That just wasn' ; t their direction. They continued to thrive and continue to pop up and build their name. And during those two years, I was I was still a sideline cheerleader. I would always call and text and say, " ; Amazing, great job. I can' ; t believe it." ; You know, I was their supporter regardless. And so when they came when it came time for brick and mortar, they they only considered me. |00:55:57| Brody That' ; s great. It' ; s a good relationship. |00:55:59| Nguyen Yeah, I think you have to nurture all relationships, especially the ones that you want to keep. |00:56:06| Brody Right. So tell me about the sandwiches. |00:56:08| Nguyen Oh, gosh, sandos. There' ; s the, the main the head curator and the creator, his name is Stevie and he' ; s been with a lot of different restaurants. His last restaurant was with Uchi. And so, you know, he' ; s got a really creative culinary skill and eye and knack for things. And just the way he' ; s able to pair different types of foods, you know, that you don' ; t usually think about. Like, for example, today they had a Sandoitchi collaboration with Goldee' ; s Barbecue, who' ; s one number one smoker in Texas for a couple of years now. One would think, how in the world can these two kind of fuse. And lo and behold, they did it. The line was out of the street today, this morning. And they' ; re just creative. They were able to pair with a hot brand and use that brand' ; s expertise in preparing meats. And then Sando was able to bring in quality meats like Wagyus, and allow these professional meat cookers to prepare it for the sandwiches. So it' ; s just, it' ; s a twist on sandwiches that you don' ; t usually get. But it is artisan made. It' ; s there' ; s nothing what' ; s the word? Mass produced about any of their products. You know that you had a special sandwich that was prepared by somebody that knew what they were doing. |00:57:46| Brody Yeah. And. Social media has been instrumental. |00:57:52| Nguyen Social media has propelled them to the stars. |00:57:53| Brody Tell me about their story and how it ties in with what we were talking about with social media. |00:57:59| Nguyen Oh, gosh. I mean, again, we' ; re, we' ; re saying that the different, the different cultures are mixing, right? Because there is more awareness, there' ; s more social media, there' ; s more curiosity, there' ; s less walls to have to jump over. And so, I mean, these guys are just really aggressive and, again, creative on the content that they' ; re able to bring out. They do pop ups that sell out within minutes, you know, 50, 60,000 sandwiches in 40 minutes or less. Like, that' ; s their capacity. It' ; s all we can make. I' ; m like " ; Geez. Within minutes." ; And so, there is there is certainly a cult following to these sando sandwiches from Sandoitchi. And I' ; m excited because again they' ; re connecting with me finally to do their first brick and mortar. And so we' ; re going to create I think it' ; ll be Dallas-Fort Worth' ; s first Japanese convenience store that specializes in sandos. |00:59:02| Brody Oh, that' ; s really interesting. Where is that going to be and what will it be like in your vision? |00:59:07| Nguyen Well, I can tell you it' ; s going to be in Dallas. I can' ; t be too specific yet, but I feel that it' ; ll be a, it' ; s going to be on an endcap corner at an intersection. It' ; s going to be a real sleek, trendy, simple store with just a lot of concrete and metal with curated Japanese music that' ; s going to be more upbeat. So you' ; re going to feel, you know, kind of like you' ; re in a, in an Asian, in the Asian, in the Asian scene. Just based on the music and the products that you see, because we want to, again, be a convenience store. We want to specialize in the sandwiches, but you' ; re still see your Japanese candies and chips and junk food and stuff of that nature. |00:59:51| Brody Interesting. Will there be a sit down element? |00:59:55| Nguyen No. There' ; s not going to be sit down. |00:59:56| Brody It' ; s more takeout. |00:59:57| Nguyen Mm hmm. |00:59:59| Brody That' ; s sounds great and really interesting. And I think, like you said, kind of capitalizing on... |01:00:05| Nguyen I' ; m excited for this one because I am not a franchisee to the brand. You know, I' ; m a partner of the, of the creators of the brand. And so I get to experience their creativeness. |01:00:19| Brody Yeah. What does that mean to you to, to be a partner as opposed to a franchisee of the brand? |01:00:25| Nguyen I mean, first of all, I don' ; t have to pay royalties. That' ; s a big plus. You know, being a franchisee, you have to pay royalties. And I get it. You got to pay the piper. You got to pay to play. But now I don' ; t get to be creative with the being a franchisee. I get to do and say what they tell me to. As a matter of fact. And so with Sandoitchi, it' ; s we can get creative, we can have different type of collaborations. We can, the team can have fun. We' ; re trying to, you know, execute. |01:01:03| Brody Do you think, and maybe you can' ; t say this yet, do you think, do you see growth beyond that, beyond that one store? |01:01:11| Nguyen For Sandoitchi? Absolutely. Absolutely. And that' ; s why I was brought onto the team. I' ; m actually one of my roles is to create the SOP, the standard operating procedures book in order to scale. |01:01:27| Brody So it sounds like a lot goes into these decisions. And, you know... |01:01:32| Nguyen Oh gosh. Yes. |01:01:33| Brody Yeah. |01:01:34| Nguyen There' ; s lots to do if you decide to do it. |01:01:37| Brody Yeah. In any of these businesses that you' ; re involved in. Are there, you know, special things that that are done for cultural holidays, events? |01:01:54| Nguyen Yeah. I mean, Ramadan was just around the corner. We gave deals out for after 9 p.m. We' ; re always trying to do something for the Asian community. |01:02:06| Brody Connect. You know, I think you mentioned at, Asia Times Square that, that there' ; s something going on, events going on every week. What type of events, typically? |01:02:17| Nguyen Oh, gosh, this is an event to go to whoever is listening to this if Asia Times Square is still around. But I mean, they have performers on stage. They' ; ll have 10 to 15 different food trucks that are serving. They' ; ve got live music. They' ; ve got...it' ; s just, it' ; s just a nice outdoor venue, that is...There' ; s nothing like it in Dallas-Fort Worth. |01:02:44| Brody So just sort of nearing the end of our interview here, what, when you look back over your life and your experience, you know, starting with Vietnam Plaza and, you know, into what you' ; re doing right now, what are some reflections or lessons that you would say you' ; ve gathered over the years? |01:03:10| Nguyen Gosh. Love and effort. That' ; s all it takes to succeed and to be happy. |01:03:23| Brody That' ; s great. So that' ; s the advice that you would give to people who are starting out. |01:03:28| Nguyen As a business owner, it depends on how far they' ; re willing to take love and effort. You know, it sounds simple, but I can give you examples. Love. Love your customer. If you walked into my store and maybe I looked at you, maybe I nodded, or maybe I said " ; Hi or welcome in." ; What' ; s the difference if I said it with a love? You know, eye contact, the genuine smile. It doesn' ; t even have to be fast, but with love. It was completely different. So while I say or you say, that' ; s it. I think it' ; s really big. |01:04:12| Brody Yeah. Yeah. And what about effort? |01:04:15| Nguyen I mean, that' ; s equally important. None of us have to be a genius. We just have to be willing to outwork and work it, and it' ; ll fall into place. Too many people won' ; t go the distance, so they won' ; t, they won' ; t be yielding the result that they were searching for or longing for. |01:04:37| Brody That' ; s good advice. Well, thank you very much for sharing your story and your experiences. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you that you' ; d like to include or talk about? |01:04:52| Nguyen Shaping DFW. I would certainly have to say that my Uncle Tom Nguyen that I mentioned, owns 32 to 30ish units, Lisa' ; s Fried Chicken. Him and my father also probably helped create the Catholic community in Fort Worth. The church is called Our Lady of Fatima on Lancaster in Fort Worth. I would love to say that my father and my uncle contributed greatly, as far as funding the building of the churches and my father, as far as being the president of the church for many years, and kind of being their leader and trying to set people up for success. My uncle has also just greatly helped the community as well. With that many stores, he' ; s got that many employees and he actually allows, you know, people to partner with him. So that way they can have some equity and just try to you know, live a better life here than there, referring to Vietnam. I don' ; t know. I got to I got to give him some love too. He' ; s, he' ; s helped. |01:06:06| Brody That' ; s great. Well, thank you for sharing that story as well. I really appreciate your time today and I' ; m really excited that you participated in this project. So thank you. |01:06:20| Nguyen Sure. Thank you. Absolutely. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Tony Nguyen, April 26, 2022
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2021oh002_di_010
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Grocers, Asian American
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2022-04-26
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Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Thanin Viriyaki
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5.4 Interview with Thanin Viriyaki, April 19, 2022 2021oh002_di_009 01:49:20 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Thai Photography of food Asian grocer Thanin Viriyaki Betsy Brody m4a oh_audio_dig_viriyaki_thanin_20220419.m4a 1:|15(5)|30(7)|44(4)|58(6)|70(3)|84(3)|94(9)|107(15)|119(13)|135(6)|149(10)|162(1)|177(3)|189(6)|201(11)|214(1)|226(13)|244(5)|255(10)|266(13)|282(14)|298(3)|310(2)|323(12)|335(4)|346(8)|358(15)|373(9)|386(12)|404(2)|416(3)|426(11)|437(12)|448(6)|460(7)|472(7)|484(6)|497(1)|509(13)|522(8)|533(7)|546(9)|559(15)|572(10)|585(8)|598(10)|612(2)|622(9)|634(11)|646(1)|658(12)|674(1)|687(6)|701(7)|718(1)|734(7)|750(1)|762(14)|774(10)|785(6)|800(2)|810(9)|821(8)|832(13)|845(2)|858(3)|870(8)|882(9)|893(9)|906(4)|918(8)|931(6)|944(16)|955(7)|968(10)|983(10)|999(3)|1012(12)|1025(9)|1042(10)|1056(15)|1068(14)|1086(4)|1098(8)|1111(10)|1125(1)|1137(2)|1150(11)|1162(4)|1174(5)|1186(3)|1198(8)|1211(17)|1223(3)|1237(1)|1249(2)|1261(13)|1278(15)|1291(4)|1302(3)|1315(1)|1328(6)|1339(17)|1352(10)|1365(1)|1379(11)|1390(8)|1402(8)|1413(5) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/162897 Aviary audio 0 Introduction Asian American grocers ; Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Thai ; Photography of food ; Texas--History 30 Moving to Texas from Thailand Asian restaurant ; Bangkok ; chef ; community ; cooking ; crab ; curry ; Dallas ; family run restaurant ; food ; Hainanese chicken ; Haltom City ; home cooking ; hospitality ; house party ; Houston ; Marissa's Restaurant ; palate ; recipes ; restauran ; seafood ; Texas ; Thai community ; Thai food ; Thai restaurant ; Thailand ; Trader Vic's ; western palate 609 Parallels between culinary arts and photography art ; chef ; cooking ; photography 1027 Asian community in Haltom City Asian community ; Asian grocery ; community center ; community hub ; country club ; discrimination ; exotic ; generation ; groceries ; Marissa's Restaurant ; meatball ; neighborhood ; neighbors ; newspaper ; palate ; racism ; stereotypes ; Thai community ; VCR ; vegetables ; videos ; Vietnam Plaza ; western palate 1401 Changes in the Asian community in North Texas Asian community ; connections ; Dallas ; discrimination ; hole in the wall ; Lao food ; Nalinh Market ; racism ; representation ; social media ; stereotypes ; Thai community ; Thai food ; western palate ; xenophobia ; Yelp 1785 Food and representation as a cultural bridge Anthony Bourdain ; bridge ; ethnic food ; Martin Yan ; racism ; representation ; stereotypes ; television ; TV ; western palate 2112 Reflections on " ; authenticity" ; and food Asian flavors ; Asian food ; authentic ; authenticity ; banh mi ; Dallas ; fast food ; French ; fusion ; innovation ; Ngon ; palate ; Panda Express ; Pei Wei ; price points ; Quoc Bao ; ramen ; social media ; street food ; Thai food ; tradition ; western palate 2798 Contrast between " ; fine dining" ; and " ; mom and pop" ; restaurants authentic ; authenticity ; barbecue ; Bon Appetit ; celebration ; COVID ; culture ; Dallas ; Donny Sirisavath ; educate ; education ; ethnic food ; fine dining ; hole in the wall ; Khao Noodle Shop ; labor ; mom and pop ; negative reviews ; palate ; pandemic ; price points ; ramen ; rent ; representation ; restaurant reviews ; reviews ; Salt Bae ; social media ; western palate 3276 Growing up in family run restaurants/ Reflections on Asian and American identity American ; Americanized ; Asian restaurant ; banh mi ; chef ; family run restaurant ; fast food ; immigrant ; names ; Quoc Bao ; western palate 3961 Viriyaki starts a photography business art ; Asian community ; business ; culture ; photography ; University of North Texas ; weddings 4707 Getting involved in food photography Dallas Mavericks ; food ; photography ; restaurants 5081 Attending University of North Texas/ Changes in Asian community in North Texas art ; Asian community ; photography ; social media ; Thai community ; University of North Texas 5830 Thai community restaurants, parties, and social activities Dragon Boat Race ; house party ; music ; parties ; restaurants ; Thai community ; Thai food 6084 Thai family businesses in Haltom City generation ; ghost kitchens ; Laos ; meatball ; movie ; social media ; video 6359 History of Red Bull/ Thai connection Red Bull ; Thailand |00:00:00| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is April 19th, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Mr Thanin Viriyaki. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you for joining me today, and let' ; s just start out. Tell me where and when you were born. |00:00:32| Viriyaki I was born in Bangkok, Thailand. March 4th, 1980. I came here at three months old. My sister, who is older, she was born in Houston, where my parents met and they decided to go, have me in Thailand because they wanted to have my mom have more help after giving birth. So they went over there to utilize all the family support and then brought me back over here. |00:00:59| Brody At three months. |00:01:00| Viriyaki Correct? Yeah. |00:01:02| Brody What were your parents doing in Houston and then later in Dallas? |00:01:05| Viriyaki So my dad, he went to Sam Houston College and he got a degree in accounting. I remember my mom working at a hospital, at the cafeteria, at the hospital when I was young. Not sure what she was doing when they actually met, though. My dad eventually became a chef and worked for Trader Vic' ; s in Houston. And then eventually, when I was four, they, which is in 1984, they had an opportunity to buy a restaurant in Haltom City, a suburb of Fort Worth. And so they bought a restaurant and we moved from Houston all the way up here, and it was named Marissa' ; s Restaurant, which is the name of my sister. So you can see which one' ; s their favorite kid. Although I will say that I was like- my, my sister was dad' ; s favorite and I' ; m mom' ; s favorite. So, you know, dad being a chef, I guess he had the say, you know, what the new restaurant name was. |00:02:07| Brody So your dad studied accounting. What led him into becoming a chef? |00:02:12| Viriyaki Ah, I' ; m not exactly sure. That' ; s something I never asked him, but I will say that my grandfather, his dad, was a butcher in Thailand, had his own butcher shop. I think it' ; s just passion for cooking. You know, one thing I always remember vividly was him always wanting to cook for people and friends, and he would always have house parties. You know, many, many, many years later when I was an adult, I met an old friend of his and he told me like, " ; Oh, you know, we would always have parties at your dad' ; s house." ; I don' ; t know if he said my dad' ; s nickname or the house' ; s nickname was " ; The Village" ; in Thai because everyone would always crash there. They' ; d come over. And I do remember seeing all these old photographs of my parents' ; house in Houston, and it was just always party photos. Full of parties all the time. You know, so my parents are very, very social people, and I think my dad, with his love of cooking. I guess it was a way for him to sort of like, I guess, give joy and entertain his friends. |00:03:26| Brody What kind of things would he cook, what were the the things that you remember? |00:03:29| Viriyaki Oh man. Well, for me, I will say this. Being a big seafood lover, every time we go to an Asian market and like crabs were in season, I would always bother him to make crabs. And you know, it' ; s like seafood, so it' ; s expensive and it' ; s like kind of like a bit of a hassle to make and eat. So I' ; d be like, " ; Can I get some crabs? Can I get some crabs?" ; And it was fascinating to me because like, you know, for in a western society, how often are you going to get any kind of live animal, if you really think about that? Like what? How many even American families, if you' ; re not living in the country, are cooking anything like legit live, that could hurt you. Right? With little claws snipping at you. So I would always ask for crab, but there are so many dishes he would make. There' ; s like the Thai version of Hainanese chicken. You know, they call it a Kao Mun Gai, which so " ; kao" ; is rice, " ; mun" ; is oil, " ; gai" ; is chicken. So when you cook it, you cook the rice with the broth that you boiled the chicken in and then you put like ginger in there and you make this sort of like oily garlic and then mix that with the rice. So the rice like this...Kind of like chicken brothy, not wet because obviously the water cooks, cooks out, but you' ; ll have this like oil, slight oiliness to it. It' ; s kind of interesting. So you have a soup from the broth, which they' ; ll dash some white pepper on there and they' ; ll garnish it with cilantro, sometimes some cucumber. Usually it' ; s like cucumber sliced cold. Put that on the plate. You have the rice and then you have the cold chicken. So when they boil the chicken, what they' ; ll do is they' ; ll dunk in ice water so the fat like coagulates. So it' ; s like this cold chicken dish with the hot, warm soup and then oily rice, and then they' ; ll make this sauce. So that was a favorite mine. I actually wasn' ; t too big on curries myself, which my mother is always like teasing me about because she was like, " ; Your, your American friends love the curry. How come you don' ; t love the curry? You' ; re Thai, you should love the curry." ; So, but he would make a lot of curry like all the different curries you could, you know, basically do, he would make a lot of different colors. |00:05:51| Brody So Marissa' ; s Restaurant. What was, what kind of food was served there? Was it Thai food? And what was sort of the feeling in the restaurant? |00:06:01| Viriyaki From what I remember is Thai food. I know that back then in the 80s, a very common sentiment was we' ; d have to, we had to make it for the Westerners, right? And you' ; d have to adjust the palate a bit. If I' ; m correct, it usually means making the food sweeter. I don' ; t remember specifically what was on the menu because it was so long ago. I was like four years old. But I just, yeah, I remember it was long hours, and I think that' ; s one of the reasons why my parents eventually sold it. Because you' ; re there first thing in the morning. You' ; re there late at night. Very labor intensive. I remember my mother always talking about how one of the reasons they had to sell it was they just they just felt physically overwhelmed eventually over the years. And there was a story of when it was, I think, snowing and they' ; re like, " ; Oh, man. Let' ; s go in to work, it' ; s snowing." ; And they' ; d get there. And there' ; s people already lined up like already, waiting to eat, you know, like this, like kind of like kind of like, " ; Oh my gosh, we have all these people to serve can' ; t really take a break, you know?" ; So I remember as a kid going, " ; Why don' ; t you just shut down the store? You own the store." ; But I guess they sort of felt like obligated. You know, I think I think with a lot of immigrants, there' ; s this sense of not wanting the opportunity to slip away. Because you' ; re over here, you know, the " ; land of opportunity" ; and also sort of like this sense of duty, which my dad is, was definitely driven by. You know, he was just someone who' ; s like, " ; If it has to be done, we have to do it, you know?" ; And he wasn' ; t it wasn' ; t one to complain, which is, I think, a common characteristic of the, a lot of first generation Asians coming over where they didn' ; t really take things for granted. And there, they looked at America as " ; Hey, this as a place for us to do something to take advantage of these opportunities, you know, move, to move up." ; You know, so it' ; s a common theme, whether you' ; re Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, I see that a lot. You know where the older generation, just they, they, they didn' ; t complain. They were just like they they if anything, they they sort of they didn' ; t want to acknowledge weakness for better or worse, and they just wanted to push through, you know? And so, for good or bad, they were very resilient people and workhorses, you know. Which you know, the aspect of pushing through and ignoring any sort of like setbacks or weaknesses is, funny enough, now, in this day and age where people want to talk about things like mental health, that' ; s actually kind of a discussion now where it' ; s like, " ; Oh, you can' ; t bring that up to your parents because they' ; ll just be like, ' ; That' ; s weak, what are you talking about? There' ; s no such thing like, you' ; re sad. Just go, go, go to sleep or something, go eat something, you know?' ; " ; So, but yeah, so my dad was from that first generation where it' ; s like, " ; Hey, our job needs to be done, so we' ; re going to do it" ; and they would just do it. |00:09:10| Brody It also sounds like, based on what you were saying before that he had a pretty deep sense of hospitality. So I' ; m sure that combined with the work ethic and the reality of having people that were there to eat. |00:09:23| Viriyaki Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. So I think, yeah, yeah. Looking back on it, it was sort of like, what do we like to do? I like to cook. Hang out. Be social. All right. Well, this is the path. Let' ; s make a restaurant. You know, so which, funny enough for me, now, being a photographer, it kind of was the same path of where I was sort of, be very interested in art and visual arts. And then I would take photos for art. And then later on, after doing for years, eventually thought, " ; You know what, I should probably make this my job. Like I, I love this too much to like ignore that, right?" ; So it' ; s kind of funny, like there' ; s some parallels there to what they did and what I did. |00:10:08| Brody Yeah. I mean, tell me about the parallels that you see between your work as a photographer and what your parents were doing running the restaurant. |00:10:17| Viriyaki So, yeah, I have this theory of how photography and the culinary arts sort of like have these interesting parallels. So both are a combination of several elements. So like if I cook you a dish, it' ; s not just like the flavor...the end result, the flavor isn' ; t just who' ; s the cook, it isn' ; t just the recipe, isn' ; t just the tools, isn' ; t just the ingredients or whatever. Photography is kind of the same. It' ; s not just photography, not just the model, not just location, not just the wardrobe, not just the lighting used, it' ; s everything coming together, right? So, it' ; s kind of interesting how you can take one element out of that, of either, and it completely alters the end result. And also, I feel that it' ; s, both are sort of like this collaborative nature because even if you' ; re just a chef, you know, someone else probably grew the crops, someone else probably grew the meat, someone else probably made that bread, someone else probably made the tools. So it' ; s like there' ; s so many moving parts of both things that also culminate into something unique. So no matter if you' ; re trying to remake a dish, there might be some slight variation if you go somewhere else and make it right, you know. And same thing with photography, I might want to replicate and look, can I go somewhere else that' ; s going to be slightly different? That' ; s sort of the fun and the challenge of it. I think even how lighting effects an object is very similar, how the temperature of meat, or I' ; m sorry, the temperature of fire can affect, say, a piece of meat in a sense that if you have harsh, strong lighting, you' ; ll get this sort of uneven kind of effect or one part' ; s blown out and you have this dark shadow. And then if you have softer lighting, you' ; ll get softer shadows and more gradual kind of tones of the, of dark to light. And similar to how you sear a steak where you have this intense heat and you have this uneven cooked meat. If you slow cook it, it will be more even. So I think that' ; s kind of interesting how there' ; s parallels like that, you know, and I almost kind of feel like this funny connection to my dad in a way because he had his craft, I had my craft and are different, but they' ; re similar in those aspects, you know. So I think about that a lot and how we were different people, but we sort of like had like these similarities and what we gravitated to, if that even makes sense. |00:12:46| Brody Yeah, of course. So, you know, a lot about food. I understand you' ; re a food photographer as well as a photographer of human subjects. Tell me how you got into that. |00:13:00| Viriyaki Well, at first I was just doing regular fine art in school or just I would always draw, always draw and always paint. I remember one of my earliest recollections was, man, I think it was maybe kindergarten, and our task was to paint something for our mom for Mother' ; s Day. And my painting was this entire poster board just covered-the whole thing' ; s covered- of dinosaurs. And I' ; m just like, " ; Mom, look what I made for you." ; Yeah, of course. It' ; s like my thing, dinosaurs. It' ; s kind of funny. So I was always just drawing stuff. I remember there' ; d be a family camera and I was...I would like pose my G.I. Joes and Transformers toys, and I would just like, set them up, take pictures of them. So it' ; s almost like I had this, like, I don' ; t know, like cinematographer' ; s mind, already composing shots, and I would just take pictures of all kinds of random stuff, which my mother would always be kind of critical of at the time going like, " ; Why are you? Why are you taking so many pictures like, why do you need to take so many pictures?" ; And I just always gravitated to art, and I was always drawing and painting, and eventually I got a camera in I believe 10th grade in high school. So I could have specific pictures of specific objects, specific angles to then go and draw. So I wasn' ; t great at necessarily drawing from memory, but I needed like reference material and I would just use that camera to capture all kinds of random things, you know, like, " ; Hey, oh I' ; ll tell my friends, hey, hold your hands this way" ; and I' ; ll use like a regular table lamp to like light a certain way and shoot that, draw. So that' ; s what got me initially into photography. And then I started doing some experimental things with the photography where we' ; d like scratch it with like razor blades and do- put like fire on it or like rub ink on it or put Clorox on. So we were like trying some really interesting things like some of the artists I was influenced by at the time was...One was Dave McKean, who did the cover for the Sandman comic books, which, that series is apparently about to be made on Netflix and then Mark Romanek. If I' ; m saying that name, right? He did the videos for Nine Inch Nails, and you just had this sort of like grungy texture to them. That was interesting, you know? So at the time, the stuff that I was, the art that I was into was a lot of like surrealistic stuff, kind of more dark art kind of looking and stuff. And the stuff kind of just appealed me in that because it' ; s so surreal. Like, you know, that was sort of like for me, my escape was just making art. You know, it' ; s like being like, you know, the loser in high school, antisocial and sort of like, " ; I' ; m just going to hole in my room and hole up in my room and make this art." ; And so just listen to music, make art and I think about it now, with all the kids having so many amazing toys and video games to really distract themselves with and to be able to play online with your friends, like, you know, I think about that now and how I probably wouldn' ; t have developed some of those skills because I' ; d be too busy having fun doing, you know, all this other stuff, you know? So for me, it was like being isolated gave me, you know, I had to seek refuge in the art, which luckily for me, became like a career later on, you know, so I think about that too. And how like how like I think about like, how is that going to affect the future generations if they' ; re constantly having to, you know, get or what would be the term, like constant feedback or constant rewards, you know, like the Tik Tok apps and stuff like that? Not to say like, not to sound like some what they call a " ; boomer" ; and be like, " ; Oh my God, Tik Tok' ; s bad." ; You know, I love scrolling and looking at all that stuff too, like memes or whatever. But I wonder, just like, what' ; s the big picture that like 10, 20 years from now and how that would make the kids today develop as well. So it' ; s kind of interesting . |00:17:05| Brody That is interesting. Going back to the restaurant, you mentioned that they sold it. What...How long was it open? Do you remember when it closed? |00:17:15| Viriyaki Oh man, I gotta think about this. I could be wrong. My sister has the better memory, which is like, that' ; s why I usually say that' ; s why I take pictures. They last longer. I feel like it was roughly four years or so. I feel like around four years. And then my dad, he went on to work at Ridglea Country Club in Fort Worth. |00:17:43| Brody What was Haltom City like when you had the restaurant and who were the customers that typically were there? |00:17:49| Viriyaki So there wasn' ; t a lot of Asians around there that much. I will say down the street, there was another Thai family that owned a meatball factory and then further down that same street, there was another Thai family that owned a VHS rental place called Movies Unlimited. And so that was kind of like our little clique was the kids from both of those stores. We hang out each other' ; s stores and play, and our parents would be friends. So most of the time, I just remember it being largely like a Western clientele, you know, which again, kind of going back to how they cooked was we' ; d have to they' ; d have to make it where the palate of the Westerners could accept our " ; exotic" ; food, you know, so back then, like, you know, just without YouTube and all this stuff to teach people what things are to open their minds like, you' ; d have to kind of get lucky that someone would even want to give you a chance, right? You know, to, for them to expand their palate like that. So there weren' ; t too many Thai restaurants around back then. I mean, just thinking about. Like...I can' ; t even remember where my parents really even got their groceries at that time until later on when Haltom City got Vietnam Plaza. You know, I feel like that was the first like real grocery store we had was Vietnam Plaza in Haltom City. Before then, you would get little bits of groceries from one of the local like mini marts that were nearby. And those little places were kind of interesting in that they were sort of like the community centers for a lot of us. You' ; d bump into a lot of friends there inadvertently because you' ; re there to buy food or you' ; d rent videos from them because what they would do is they' ; d get these videos from overseas of these novellas and they would have this wall of VHS recorders, VCRs I mean, and they' ; d all hook up and they would make like, I don' ; t know, let' ; s say, 20, 30 copies of one tape that they' ; d get overseas and they' ; d rent out for a dollar. So every week you be like, " ; Oh, what' ; s the next episode? You got that episode?" ; You' ; d go back. So that' ; s where they would get their groceries from. It' ; s like they get their entertainment. I know my dad would get like newspapers there. He' ; s my dad was always interested in reading the news because again, no internet back then, right? Yeah, it' ; s like the internet, at least like commercially like wasn' ; t a thing. So that' ; s the only way for him to sort of keep abreast of like things like politics over there, which is he was very interested in, you know, so that was like our link to, you know, the homeland, essentially. |00:20:33| Brody So these were like, like a basically small grocery store that had like staples of rice, maybe? What other types of things might they have had? And then the videos and then the newspapers and things like that? Yeah. And you had one in Haltom City. |00:20:53| Viriyaki Correct. Correct. I forgot the name of it, but I believe it' ; s still there. I think it' ; s still there. I could be wrong, but I believe it' ; s still there. |00:21:02| Brody And you mentioned that it was sort of like a link to, you know, for especially the first generation to what was going on back in Thailand and things like that. Do you remember spending a lot of time in those stores, kind of hanging out? |00:21:15| Viriyaki Yeah, I mean, we' ; d go there multiple times per week, you know? So because like, you know, as far as like, your, where you source your goods from for the restaurant like that, that was like the place. There' ; s really no other option. You know, they kind of had a monopoly, you know, so I remember we' ; d have to go over there to get...what was that? I can' ; t. I can' ; t remember. Some vegetable. You know, it' ; s like if they don' ; t have it like, well, can' ; t make it. It' ; s not in. And it' ; s like, where else can you go? Whereas here you might go, " ; OK, let' ; s go down the street, go to Walmart, go to Target, go to, you know, Kroger or something." ; But over there is sort of like, this is the only place. Funny enough, kind of a similar situation. I went to Santa Fe, I think, to do an engagement shoot and there was one pho restaurant even around that area. And I was with the bride and groom, who are Vietnamese, and we' ; re just kind of joking like " ; They have a monopoly." ; Like, like, there' ; s no competition and you' ; re like, " ; Where do they get their groceries from?" ; So that was sort of like our situation too at the time was like... I can' ; t, I can' ; t even remember another Thai restaurant near us at that time. You know, so back then too, when my dad would cook for me and I' ; d take food to school like he' ; d get people going, " ; What are you? What are you eating? What is that? You know, like fried rice, what?" ; You know? So now it' ; s interesting seeing people go like, " ; Oh my god, Pad Thai, that' ; s amazing. Thai tea, it' ; s amazing, you know?" ; So it' ; s interesting seeing the palate and how it' ; s evolved. You think about the torture you basically went through back in the day of people not knowing what you ate and then also having to deal with any stereotypes or prejudices of those dishes from people who didn' ; t know better too. So it' ; s interesting seeing what it is now. |00:23:21| Brody Yeah. Let' ; s talk about that. Like the... What, what changes have you seen in, you know, in the time that you' ; ve been in in Texas since you were very young in the Asian community, in North Texas and in the connections between the Asian community and others? |00:23:43| Viriyaki Man. Well, for one, there' ; s a lot more of us. I' ; ll say that. That' ; s something that my mom always brings up too. She' ; ll be like, " ; Oh man, you weren' ; t that many of us back then." ; I remember even just when I, you know, we were living in Fort Worth at the time, came over to Dallas. I came up here to...There was a bowling tournament that for I think, like the Thai, like Commerce Association, something like that. And it' ; s full of all these Thai people, this entire bowling alley, like 20 something lanes. I just remember remarking to a friend, " ; I didn' ; t know this many Thai people existed up here. That' ; s crazy." ; You know, but it was like a bigger city, so it just, it made more sense that they would be over there rather than Fort Worth. But yeah, just the fact that there' ; s more of us, you know, it kind of logistically opens up so many doors of like options of food that are businesses, just so many resources in general and support, you know, so like just just for instance, like, let' ; s say you open up and no one knows what you' ; re making there or who you are, maybe at least the initial group of your, your people, so to speak, can at least support it in the early days until it gets going. You know, I remember just as an example, there was a restaurant called, is a restaurant called Nalinh in Irving. So this place was kind of like that little mart near my parents' ; place where they would sell groceries and kitchenware something like that. Really tiny hole in the wall, and they had two tables and four stools. So the you know, the joke was if you brought more than one friend, somebody was standing. Right? Two stools per table and in their corner had like a tiny little kitchen. And we would go over there and eat lunch. And it was awesome. And I remember going back years later and it was like, not just Thai and Laos people. It was like, you know, all kinds of people, Hispanics, Caucasians, you know, it' ; s kind of like, wow. So I remember asking them, like, " ; Hey, how did these people find you?" ; They' ; re like, " ; Oh yeah, we asked somebody that and we asked a customer that. How do you find us?" ; They said, we found you on Yelp and you know, you' ; re talking to in Thai and you' ; re like, " ; What' ; s, what' ; s Yelp?" ; So they didn' ; t even know, you know, I mean? So it' ; s kind of interesting how things have organically grown to where people now seek out this food. Whereas before it was like, hopefully someone even knows what we' ; re making. But now people are actively looking for it, seeking it out. And it' ; s really sort of been, I don' ; t know, like validating like, " ; Yeah, I told you, all this stuff was delicious!" ; You know, because like, you grow up being kind of teased about it, you know, like, " ; Oh, that looks weird. It smells weird." ; I remember my cousin had this jelly, lychee jelly like snack. Like you buy these tubs that had the screw on lid with the handle, and it' ; s full of these plastic sealed jellies with a chunk of lychee in it. He brought it to school and someone, someone made a remark like, " ; Oh, what is that? Is that dog meat?" ; You know? And it' ; s like, " ; No, dude, it' ; s, it' ; s a fruit. It' ; s like, you should try it." ; And the guys was like, " ; No, no, I think that' ; s dog meat." ; You' ; re like, really? That' ; s the stuff you had to deal with. And you know, so it' ; s great now. It' ; s great now seeing, you know, people being so much more receptive to our cuisine and, you know, just, just all kinds of Asian cuisine. I think it makes just life in general better, honestly, just to have this kind of variety, right? |00:27:33| Brody Why do you think people are more receptive now than they were back when you were growing up? |00:27:41| Viriyaki Well, you know, I think just being around different types of people, you become, I think, more open minded to them. So it' ; s just like if you had someone like a friend of yours recommend something, you' ; re much more willing to try to take their advice for anything, right? So I think just having more and more Asians around sort of just opened people' ; s eyes up, honestly for them to go, " ; Oh, what' ; s that?" ; So it' ; s sort of like this proliferation of taste, if that even makes sense, you know, so it' ; s just you hanging out with this person of this culture, you might- they' ; re going to consume something and you' ; re going to go, " ; What is that?" ; And the fact that you' ; re friends with them, your tastes are similar, you know, and not just food, but all kinds of things. And then you' ; re going to try it out and you' ; re going to go, " ; Oh my God, it' ; s amazing." ; And I' ; ve had that happen with friends, too, that I' ; ve known that...I remember one friend who he was very, very, very adamant that Thai food was not good because, " ; My wife in New York took me to a Thai restaurant. It was so bad. Oh my God, Thai food." ; And I was just like, " ; What are you kidding me?" ; So I I' ; m like, " ; I think you went to the wrong place." ; So I take him to....I forgot which Thai restaurant I took him to. And he' ; s like, " ; Thai food' ; s the greatest thing. It' ; s my favorite food now. I' ; m so wrong." ; . |00:29:04| Brody That' ; s funny. |00:29:05| Viriyaki But you know, like, it took a Thai friend for him to legitimately go, " ; I' ; ll give it another shot." ; You know what I mean? Because he went to, you know, the wrong place. Some place in New York. I don' ; t know where it was, but you know, I think that' ; s part of it. It' ; s just more of us being around, you know, which kind of goes to the whole thing with all minorities kind of going, " ; Hey, we need more representation." ; Like the fact that there' ; s more of us being out there in more things and people get used to us being out there and normalizes us. It breaks down xenophobia and prejudices, you know, so I think that' ; s part of it. |00:29:44| Brody That story that you just told kind of reminds me of people say that food is an opportunity for people to, you know, to have a door into a different culture to, you know, it' ; s a sort of entryway into learning about different cultures. Do you have any thoughts on on the role of food in particular? |00:30:06| Viriyaki Yeah, yeah, that' ; s a good point. You know, one of the...I remember when Anthony Bourdain passed, and everyone was writing like their own little eulogies on social media. And you really- like reading all that, you really kind of took in how important he was in all of this too, being that that bridge, right? You know, like he' ; s essentially the Jacques Cousteau of culinary, international culinary arts, right? So he' ; s out there exploring the world for us, showing us things we' ; ve never seen. And it' ; s like this guy who you know is, you know, adventurous, cool, charismatic individual. And if this cool guy thinks it' ; s great, well, shoot, I, maybe I like it too. I like him. You know, it kind of goes again what I mentioned previously where if the person you like likes something, you' ; re going to go, " ; Oh, you know what? Maybe I like it too." ; You know now, and he, what he did for all kinds of cuisines was really invaluable, you know? And so having that kind of reach to the Western world, with him being a Westerner, accepting that it' ; s a big deal for a lot of us. You know, you' ; d read out, like I said, all these eulogies and they were just so appreciative. You know, all the stuff that we were teased about and stuff that was stigmatized. He' ; s going out there and going, " ; You guys are idiots. Shit' ; s amazing." ; You know? And he...Yeah, he was like, I think maybe the most important person as far as like bringing that food or opening that food up to new audiences. I don' ; t know. I can' ; t think of anyone else off the top of my head that can I can even compare it to really. The only Asian chef I remember really seeing on TV at the time when I was growing up was Charlie (Martin)Yan. He had that catchphrase " ; Yan Can Cook. So if Yan can cook, so can you!" ; And my sister and I used to watch that all the time. I saw, you know, especially because, like, our dad was a chef. And so it was cool because like, especially back then, because there wasn' ; t that much representation like the only people you would see on TV were, the like emasculated Asian man like that Mickey Rooney in " ; Breakfast at Tiffany' ; s" ; which, you know, obviously not really Asian. And then you' ; d see, like kung fu stars, right, or ninjas or whatever. So that' ; s that' ; s kind of cool to see that guy on there and then to have someone like Bourdain be out there, essentially normalizing our cuisine over here. That was so huge. That was, that was a big thing for us. And then just America in general, just becoming more and more used to seeing different cultures slowly. You know, we' ; re part of that. And it' ; s interesting seeing just even recent last few years, things like " ; Shang-Chi" ; from Marvel or " ; Crazy Rich Asians" ; you know? And so it' ; s like, you know, amongst the Asians, if we joke about like, " ; We got to go see it or we' ; re going to get our Asian card revoked. We got to support it." ; There was there' ; s a comedian here locally. His name is, I' ; m going to butcher his name it' ; s like Peng Dang. And he was saying how, " ; Yeah, did you guys see " ; Shang-Chi" ; ? Yeah, I gave that movie five stars on Rotten Tomatoes, and then I went to go see it for the first time." ; And it was a joke because " ; I had to support it. You know, we got to we got to make sure it does good. Stuff like that." ; So it' ; s kind of like, that' ; s kind of funny. Like, it' ; s like we got to support the few things we have, so we see more because then if more of that comes out than we sort of are just more and more accepted and seen as normal, right? Because it' ; s like some of us, we grow up here and we' ; re normal. But for, you know, sometimes we will have certain prejudices, prejudices placed upon us that, you know, we' ; re not like " ; American" ; or whatever, you know, but just like so many Americans had their own like ethnic histories of, let' ; s say, Irish. We do too, you know, and it' ; s sort of inseparable. Like, it' ; s not like a black and white thing because you' ; re going to get people who go, " ; Oh, I have maybe Scandinavian roots or whatever, you know, Italian roots." ; You know? And they came over here, made their space, brought their cuisine over. I mean, deep dish pizza in Chicago, is that a thing in Italy? I don' ; t know. I don' ; t think I saw that when I went to Italy, right? So they...We' ; re going through what they went through and eventually we' ; ll get to where they' ; re at, where we' ; re kind of seen as equal as they are, you know, hopefully one day. |00:35:12| Brody Yeah, that' ; s an interesting point. I mean, earlier you mentioned that, you know, in your parents' ; restaurant, they had to kind of, at that time, adapt their recipes to maybe make them sweeter, adapt to the American palate. And you know, the examples that you' ; re giving about, you know, Irish or Scandinavian cultures and sort of the gradual assimilation into Americanized versions of whatever pizza or whatever things are from their cuisines. What do you think about this concept of what we' ; re talking about Asian food in particular, about when people argue about what is authentic? You know, whether you know this Pad Thai is authentic enough or not? Where do you stand on that issue? |00:36:04| Viriyaki I probably had the initial stance of, how would I say? Probably, probably a snobby elitist stance initially of like, " ; Oh, that' ; s not the real thing." ; You know, then just after thinking about it, I' ; ve kind of reversed. And maybe that' ; s because of my parents eventually having a fast food Chinese place of their own. And it' ; s, it' ; s something I feel like the evolution of food is, is constant. You can' ; t like if you say, " ; Oh, what' ; s truly authentic?" ; Like, where do you stop in the evolution of some cuisine? So if you think about, say, ramen. You know, I didn' ; t know. I thought that stuff was around for hundreds of years, but it really wasn' ; t around to...If I' ; m correct, when Japan finally opens its borders after being closed off for couple hundred years and the Chinese came in and the Chinese influence mixed with the Japanese influence to make ramen because the Chinese word for noodles is " ; la mian" ; and it' ; s turned into " ; ramen" ; right? You know, so that itself is essentially fusion. You know, and after going to Yokohama and going to the Ramen Museum of Yokohama, I learned that tonkotsu, the pork broth soup of ramen. It wasn' ; t a wide, wide thing nationwide in Japan until, like, I think, the mid 80s. And it' ; s like, oh, that' ; s interesting, because they are, I guess, like, you know, the logistics of farming there, you couldn' ; t have that everywhere. So that' ; s kind of interesting because I thought it' ; s just around forever. But if you are a purist, a true purist, you could go, " ; Oh, pork broth. Oh, no, no, no." ; Right? So for now, if someone says, " ; We don' ; t make that because it' ; s not real," ; the people would kind of look at you kind of puzzled, right? Another thing would be banh mi in Vietnam, and that' ; s supposedly a mix of the French influence with the Vietnamese, right? So again, if you' ; re a total purist, you leave that out. But I I see people arguing online over here where there' ; s a local Vietnamese restaurant, called Ngon, where they had a cognac infused pate and the price for the sandwiches was, I don' ; t know, maybe like eight, ten bucks, I forgot. But there are other local Vietnamese people going scoffing, going, Oh, what happened to buy to get a third free like at Quoc Bao Bakery over here? And they scoffed at the fact that it just costs more than normal, you know, so to them, they felt like " ; That' ; s a rip off! Because, ah, you know, in our minds, it' ; s anchored at this price point. You can' ; t change that price point. You' ; re not authentic." ; So there' ; s sort of like this gatekeep what it should and shouldn' ; t be. And I think that' ; s silly, and I love the fact that Ngon actually tried something different. I like the fact that we had these different options. So for Dallas, I feel like we' ; re slowly trying to catch up with these other major cities in terms of cuisine. I' ; m always seeing like the most like interesting, amazing restaurants, but I' ; ll look and go, " ; Oh man, that' ; s in New York. Oh, that' ; s in L.A." ; And it' ; s a little disappointing. So we' ; re slowly catching up. And I like the fact that Ngon gave me an alternative. I like that I had a place where I can buy something slightly more expensive and it was slightly different than what' ; s already there because we already have so many restaurants of this is really the same stuff that' ; s, you know, kind of mom and pop, hole in the wall type stuff. I like the fact they tried something different. So I welcome the evolution of food, you know, because like, where, where do you stop that evolution? Because if you stop it now...So you tell me, like forever from thousand years later, nothing' ; s ever going to change. I mean, that sounds kind of boring if you really, really think about that, right? You know, just think about all the random little local food scenes going on and all these other cities. I remember seeing I' ; m about to butcher this, but I if I remember right, it was either Chicago or Detroit where it was a thing to eat. I think it was like lemonade and cheese was a cheesesteak. If I' ; m right, I figure which city, but I was trying to look up what' ; s interesting locally. And one of those cities had this trend of that cheesesteak and lemonade. It was like, " ; Oh, that' ; s interesting." ; But you know, just the fact that that' ; s a thing. It' ; s really cool, you know, so every every little area is going to have their own food borne out of just preferences or the resources. I remember watching a National Geographic show called " ; Taboo" ; had one episode purely on food. They talked about how like these Nordic countries are eating like rotting shark meat. They showed how Anglo Indians had their own cuisine. The Indians rejected them. The, the Europeans rejected them. So they' ; re kind of like, " ; Oh, we' ; re mixed and we' ; re in the middle," ; and they made their own kind of food. And one of the things that was called " ; kutti pi" ; and kutti pi was essentially like a, like a lamb fetus. You know, it' ; s like very taboo, because it' ; s like, " ; Oh, you' ; re eating this unborn thing like, that' ; s crazy." ; You know, so can you imagine telling these people like, " ; Hey, that' ; s stupid. You can' ; t, you can' ; t even eat that?" ; Like, you know, why not? Like, who' ; s making these rules? Like I want to eat what I want to eat, you know? So I think it' ; s great. And I think the views of people gatekeeping certain types of cuisine, it' ; s like it' ; s such a virtue signal. Yeah. It' ; s like this thing of like, " ; I only want the real thing because I' ; m, you know, I' ; m a consumer of real things. I' ; m legit because I only eat the legit thing." ; But what' ; s really legit, right? You know, I can understand if, say, a company attempts like especially like a big company attempts some sort of dish and is disrespectful about the dish, I can understand. Someone might have a backlash. But just in general like to dismiss like anything they feel is slightly deviating from what they feel is authentic is, I think it' ; s just it' ; s just unfortunate. I think we' ; re just limiting ourselves to that point. American Asian Chinese cuisine in itself is like- it' ; s its own thing and it should be appreciated as its own thing. I was talking to a Chinese friend of mine and I was saying, I was asking her like, " ; What do your parents think about Pei Wei or Panda Express?" ; And she' ; s like, " ; Oh, they love it" ; I said, " ; Great! Me too!" ; Because like, if, if you made that and you brought that to a dinner party, let' ; s say I don' ; t know, like the firecracker chicken at Panda Express, which I get like almost every time. Like if you if I brought that to the dinner, I can' ; t imagine anyone going, " ; Oh man, this is horrible." ; I just can' ; t. It' ; s, it' ; s like, I mean, it' ; s chicken, it' ; s chicken and batter, and I don' ; t know what else to put in there. But whenever I cooked at my parents fast food Chinese place, like most of the ingredients, were like soy sauce, oyster sauce, like a chicken base powder, salt, pepper, maybe sesame oil, vegetable oil, cornstarch. I mean, this is like normal stuff. So the thought of somebody scoffing at any of that, these ingredients at all is like it' ; s just weird, because like, really like that' ; s normal, it' ; s not like you' ; re putting in some crazy, exotic like dish or ingredient out there, you know, but it' ; s just the stigma of it. They don' ; t want to be associated. So they, you know, like, " ; Oh, no, that' ; s not a our cuisine, so you can' ; t make fun of me." ; So they just kind of they get defensive, so they push themselves away. But, you know, I don' ; t know, maybe it' ; s because I grew up in that, making that cuisine because I think about my late father whenever I see some of these places like that and makes me want to go and eat some because every now and then I' ; ll just go, " ; I' ; m going to go to one of these like, you know, low end Chinese buffets to get some sweet and sour chicken or whatever." ; I think it' ; s great. I mean, to me, it' ; s no different than somebody here going, " ; Oh, I' ; m going to get some drive thru like fries or burger," ; and it' ; s like that stuff again, being fast food. It is what it is. It' ; s not seen as high, high, high end culinary, you know, art or anything. And that' ; s fine, too. Again, like, it' ; s great that we have these options. We get what we pay for and sometimes you just want something different. So you know, we' ; re I feel like we' ; re in this phase of our the West' ; s, America' ; s evolution of its palate, that there' ; s this segment of some of us Asians that are out there going like, " ; Really what' ; s really authentic?" ; Like, you' ; re just you' ; re holding the rest of us back and you' ; re kind of like being gatekeeping about the whole thing. And that is an issue that I' ; ve heard some restaurants have to deal with because they' ; re like, " ; What' ; s really authentic?" ; You know what? Like, where do you where do you draw the line? It' ; s kind of become a burden, if anything, you know? But at the same time, the trend is now that so many people are searching out the real thing, the authentic thing, you know, but it' ; s like, what? What is really the real thing? You know, so you see some of these restaurants in the last few years that open up, they' ; ll even put the word " ; street" ; in there in their name like, you know, I saw what was it like Thai? What was that place called like Ka-Tip? I think " ; ka-tip" ; is like the thing that holds sticky rice. It' ; s I think they say like " ; Thai Street Eats" ; or something like that. It' ; s either them or other one called Tanon, which " ; tanon" ; means " ; road" ; in Thai, which funny enough, because my name is Thanin and I had people writing me going, " ; Did you start a restaurant?" ; Like, " ; No, that' ; s Tanon, I' ; m Thanin, and that' ; s different." ; But anyway, I saw like a Korean Street Eats. I think Sabaidee labels themselves as like " ; Laos or Thai Street food." ; And so everyone' ; s trying to do the shortcut of authenticity now because it' ; s being searched out. Before is fusion because we were ready for the real thing yet. And it was like, " ; Oh, look, we' ; re trying something new." ; And now it' ; s like, whether we like it or not, the nature of social media, there' ; s so many skeptical people out there of everything. And again, whether we like it or not, we only trust the people we like, whether it' ; s factual or not. There' ; s yeah, it' ; s like it' ; s affected so many different things in the world now where we only trust the people we like. And so because of that, we want to go, " ; Oh, well, I only want the real thing." ; You know, and so but what' ; s real? Where you draw the line? |00:46:37| Brody And I mean, you' ; ve raised so many really interesting points that I think we should we should talk about a little bit more. First of all, earlier you were talking about the very expensive banh mi. Right? So in Dallas in particular, we have sort of a history of fine dining and sort of French influenced restaurants and things like that sort of high-end stuff with the white tablecloths. And then in, you know, the 70s and 80s, as we got more and more Asian immigrants and, you know, immigrants from other places, had a flourishing of, you know what, I guess we would call " ; mom and pop" ; you know, Vietnamese places, Chinese places and things like that. So. In this sort of conversation about authenticity, where do you think price point or sort of that that fine dining versus mom and pop, where does that fit in for you? |00:47:38| Viriyaki Oh, good question. Well, for one, you know, I think we all get what we pay for and sometimes, I think it is good that there are some things that just are expensive and or overpriced because sometimes you do want to go, " ; Hey, you know what? I kind of want to splurge something. It' ; s a special occasion." ; I went to a really, really expensive, overly priced restaurant called Nusr-Et. It' ; s owned by that guy, Salt Bae, right? He' ; s Turkish, right? Seeing him on social media, I was always like, curious, like, " ; What' ; s, what' ; s the food tastes like?" ; I knew it' ; s overpriced. I knew that' ; s what I was getting into. He' ; s selling like gold covered tomahawks. I mean, it' ; s over-the-top ridiculous. But, you know, I was like, " ; I still want to try it." ; I just, I' ; m so curious. And I didn' ; t care. So you go there, spent, you know, way more money than we obviously should have buying the food. But I didn' ; t mind because I' ; m of the expectation of one, I knew what I was getting into, but I like the fact that I could treat myself to something like that, you know? So in essence, that' ; s sort of like a thing with anything luxury, right? It' ; s like there is this joy of the fact that you can do it. Not to say it' ; s even necessarily smart or anything, but just sometimes it' ; s nice to go. " ; You know, what I' ; ve earned this for myself, it' ; s not practical, but that' ; s the joy of it." ; So these places that do- that aren' ; t charging like the price of whatever dish that' ; s cheap in the homeland, like they. I mean, they have to. It' ; s a different world where we' ; re not we' ; re not over there. We' ; re here. So the course, the price is going to be different. To expect it to be the same is, I don' ; t know, it' ; s just it' ; s just unrealistic. There was a Thai noodle place in town called Khao Noodle. He got rave reviews. I think it was named second best new restaurant in America by Bon Appétit magazine. Didn' ; t survive, ultimately the pandemic, but very highly reviewed place. I loved it. It was great. They would give you these small boats of handcrafted noodles. Like everything' ; s made from scratch. The chef Donny became like this media darling locally and you' ; d buy, you' ; d buy the noodles. And it was like something like five dollars a bowl. And it' ; s like, you know, basically like a couple of bites and it' ; s gone. Real small. And his whole thing was, " ; I want to try all these different noodles get a variety of stuff." ; It' ; s just like buying it on the streets of Thailand. Of course, the price point is much different. I didn' ; t mind. What I did hear from him and the other owners of the restaurant was that, you know, the Westerners are very accepting of it. They came in, they saw it as this cultural experience like, " ; Oh wow, look at this," ; trying all these different things. And the fact you had to eat so many dishes to kind of get full was kind of a fun experience for them. But the biggest pushback they got was from other Thai people who were like, " ; Oh my God, you' ; re too expensive. You know, like, it' ; s so cheap in Thailand." ; And so it' ; s just funny that we' ; re sort of now in this place of where we have this baggage of expectations now where these price points are anchored from the homeland. And to bring them over here and it' ; s different and they' ; re just sort of like unsupportive of it. You know, it' ; s...I know it' ; s interesting. |00:51:21| Brody Yeah, it' ; s difficult, it sounds like it' ; s difficult to navigate between the representation, you know, and sort of excitement at the representation and also the thoughts about authenticity and price and things like that. |00:51:38| Viriyaki You know what, I just thought of something. There was something similar to happened kind of like to that where when ramen, ramen restaurants were starting to come up in Dallas. And a lot of people I saw were going, " ; Wait, how much is it for a bowl of ramen? Ten, fifteen dollars. Are you kidding me? Like, I thought that was like, you know, like 50 cents for the ramen." ; And so they' ; re used to again, the anchored price point of the Momofuku Ando, like cheap packaged ramen. And so, what they don' ; t know is that' ; s what came after. But because they' ; re introduced to that first, they think that' ; s the real thing. Now you' ; re trying to give me this gourmet ramen. that' ; s not the real thing. How dare you? They feel they' ; re ripped off. But the, the packaged ramen was made because the process of ramen is very labor intensive, very time intensive. And so that all that process made this cheaper, quicker product, you know. So if you knew that- that what the real thing was before, you know, it' ; s like you' ; re kind of like, " ; Oh, that' ; s interesting. There' ; s this cheap alternative." ; Maybe some of those people would go, " ; Oh, that' ; s a bastardization of the real thing," ; but it was like the opposite where they experienced the fake thing first thought it was the real thing. And they' ; re, they' ; re offended that these people were, you know, ripping them off, essentially, with this overpriced version. But that was a real version all along, you know? You know, and kind of a similar situation is barbecue sauce. Some people think what makes something barbecue, you throw the sauce on there? Well, that' ; s not true. Actually, barbecue is marinated meat slowly cooked over an open flame. Because there' ; s Korean barbecue, Chinese barbecue. It' ; s way different from American barbecue, you know, but the barbecue sauce that we know it over here in the West, that' ; s the process of barbecue condensed into sauce form. So you have that shortcut, right? You know, so it' ; s kind of, kind of like that. Like you' ; re, they' ; re just anchored because of what they grew up with and then they find out something else. It' ; s not what they thought they were. And it can. It can kind of, you know, we' ; re stubborn people. We don' ; t, we don' ; t want to admit that we' ; re wrong. You know, so it' ; s just going back to the point of like price point. Yeah, it' ; s it' ; s a it' ; s a battle. And it' ; s like the thing that restaurants seem to keep- Asian restaurants- seem to keep having to educate their fellow Asians about and be like, " ; Hey, we got to be realistic here. We got rent. The cost of food' ; s different here. Cost of labor is different here. Like, if you want those prices from the homeland, you' ; re free to fly back over there. You get that stuff, but it ain' ; t happening here. Whether you like it or not." ; Like that' ; s just just the reality of it. You know that the you know, it' ; s almost like the cost of if you think about like pay overpaying Uber to bring food to your house. " ; Well, hey, we brought the flavors of the home here. So you' ; re going to have to pay a little extra because you' ; re not over there." ; That' ; s the that' ; s the convenience charge in this abstract way. |00:54:35| Brody That' ; s funny. So did your parents have a second restaurant then after the Marissa' ; s? |00:54:41| Viriyaki Correct, so they had Marissa' ; s. They sold it. And then my dad went to work for Ridgelea Country Club. Chef. He was a chef there. Which funny enough, he met two brothers there who were Thai. There were also chefs over there. And then later on, my parents made a fast food Chinese place in downtown Fort Worth. My aunt bumped into a lady who she said, " ; My husband' ; s from this area of Thailand," ; and my aunt was like, " ; Oh, my sister' ; s husband is from there." ; And through some talking and they' ; re like, " ; Maybe they know each other." ; And then just funny enough, it turns out they were like, that lady' ; s husband and my dad were childhood friends, like skinny dipping as little kids in Thailand. You know, like, I forgot how old, like super young. And so he literally like flies over like the next day, and he basically made this chain of fast food places, Chinese fast food. And they get to talking to and my dad' ; s like, " ; Hey, I' ; d like to open one here." ; And that' ; s what they did. And we had that for, I feel like eight years. |00:55:48| Brody What was it called? |00:55:49| Viriyaki It' ; s called Chao Phraya, which is a river in Thailand, even though it' ; s Chinese food. Which for those that actually knew what Chao Phraya meant, it was kind of confusing. " ; Like, Isn' ; t that a Thai river?" ; And they' ; re like, " ; Yeah, it' ; s because the owner' ; s Thai." ; So it' ; s kind of funny. Like every now and then you get somebody actually knew what the name meant. So yeah, they had that for a while until my dad had health issues and eventually they sold it. |00:56:11| Brody Okay. And you worked there as well? |00:56:14| Viriyaki Yeah. Yeah, that was that was my first job. So I actually worked there. And then eventually I worked there and I worked at Bank One. They soon got bought by JPMorgan Chase.So, I' ; d worked my two jobs. So there' ; s like those are like my first two jobs, and so I did a little bit of everything like cooking to, cashiering, scooping food. So it' ; s kind of like it, like so many other children of immigrants like we, you know, we couldn' ; t not work in the family restaurant, so it' ; s kind of forced upon us. And you know, I look back on it fondly now that we didn' ; t have like cell phones and cameras back then. So. But man, I wish I had a picture of me and my dad cooking back then. That would have been awesome. I try to ask my sister if she knew if we had any photos of my, our granddad' ; s butcher shop. I don' ; t think those exist too. Like that would have been so amazing to see. But yeah, I look back on it now. You know, you didn' ; t like it back then because it' ; s like you' ; re kind of forced into it. And you know, I think, I think a thing with, like a lot of Asian immigrants growing up, and this is sort of true of like any kid, we don' ; t look at our at our parents when we' ; re kids and it' ; s cool, right? Like, " ; Oh my God, I don' ; t want to do what they do. That' ; s, that' ; s lame." ; You know and with us, like growing up, a lot of us initially will have this phase because we' ; re being judged negatively by it. Like we push away our culture and we' ; re just like, " ; Oh, no, I want to do that. It' ; s embarrassing. I don' ; t want to do the family business." ; And then when you grow up, you sort of go, " ; Hey, you know what? That makes me unique and makes me special." ; And you embrace it. And that' ; s a major trend for a lot of children of immigrants, too. There was one girl I met who her mom owns Quoc Bao Bakery. And so she posted on this group on, hugely popular group on Facebook, called " ; Subtle Asian Traits." ; She had this tattoo that said " ; Banh Mi Princess." ; And she talked about how, when she was growing up, she was embarrassed that her mom made sandwiches. Right? And then she grew up. She' ; s like, " ; You know what? My mom was a single mom, who as an adult, went back to school earned her degree. Her sandwiches have been written about in publications like D Magazine. Just like, my mom' ; s amazing like, look at all she did for me" ; and I believe her sister, her sister. And so she went, got this tattoo to show her mom like, like, " ; You know what? I was looking at this all wrong. Your a badass." ; And now she embraces it. You know, I think that' ; s so cool, but that' ; s kind of just sort of the trajectory a lot of us are on where, you know, initially because we were judged on it, we didn' ; t really want to embrace it. It felt weird because we were in this kind of funny middle ground of like we' ; re Americans, but we' ; re not like the Americans, like the Caucasian Americans. And so we want to fit in. That' ; s why a lot of them will have these, you know, Americanized names like it' ; s it' ; s sort of funny. Like there' ; s memes and jokes about how there are so many " ; Kevin Nguyens" ; out there, you know, and they don' ; t have their, they don' ; t use their Asian name because they had to assimilate. You know, it' ; s like, " ; Oh, your name is, I don' ; t know. Huy. " ; Well, you' ; re going to be, you' ; re going to be Howard or something like that." ; So we had like my my sister, her Thai name is Sa, and they' ; re like, " ; You' ; re Marissa." ; My mom' ; s name Montatip..." ; You' ; re Mona." ; And it' ; s like me is like, no " ; You' ; re just Thanin." ; I never had like the American name, but I know some people who eventually reverted back to their Asian names. I know a Russian friend who she used to go by Jane, but now that things are, you know what they are, the climate, what they are, where they' ; re, much more, people are much more open. She' ; s like, " ; Hey, you know what? I' ; m not Jane anymore. I' ; m Yevgenia." ; It was like, " ; Oh, OK, you know, like, like, fuck it, I' ; m going to be who I am now." ; You know, and that' ; s kind of a cool thing, seeing that kind of happened. There' ; s a Korean girl I knew she was a, man what was her white name? I' ; m trying to remember. Well, either way, she used to be like, let' ; s say, Jennifer and then she' ; s like, " ; You know what? I' ; m going to my Korean name. I' ; m now Young Son." ; You know, like so. |01:00:40| Brody Well, I mean, it' ; s really interesting because I mean, it' ; s kind of similar to what you were saying earlier again about the adapting the recipes and the food that was served in the restaurant to the western palate. I mean, these names are people' ; s actual names, but they were adapted to be, you know, quote unquote Americanized. So. You know, you were growing up in the 80s and, you know, kids growing up today, it' ; s a much different climate. What do you think some of the key differences are and you know, and to sort of think about what, to you what does it mean to be an American? |01:01:23| Viriyaki Hmm. Man, it' ; s a good question. You know, I think as far as like just being an American, like, I would say that the more I travel around the world, the more I do appreciate America. Like it' ; s in every, every country has their issues, right? But like America? Like, it' ; s, it' ; s almost, it' ; s almost underrated in so many aspects. Funny enough, I joked with someone that I went to Italy and I saw the Arizona tea was $2.99 cents and I was like, " ; That' ; s the price of freedom." ; But yeah, I know, like America is awesome. There' ; s a, there' ; s a Laos friend of mine they' ; re, they' ; re dentists. They own like, I don' ; t know how many dental offices now, but they' ; re like loaded like crazy. We' ; re not close friends because, you know, I wish I was better friends. But we' ; re friends, anyway, they' ; re like loaded. And they' ; re from Laos. And I remember him posting about must have been Fourth of July or something. He goes, " ; Yeah, I came from Laos, but I' ; m proud. I' ; m more proud to say I' ; m an American because America, you study hard, you work hard. You could be whatever you want. And he basically did that. Him and his brother came over here and now this guy and his wife have, I don' ; t know, like nearly 10 dental offices. I don' ; t know what other businesses they have. I know they own, co-own, several restaurants, and they had like the biggest house I ever been in my life. And he credits you know, that to the opportunity that America afforded him, you know? And so to me, what it means to be American is like, this is a place where, you know, sounds so cliche, right? You can rise up from nothing. And I' ; ve seen that. I mean, there' ; s so many. Like, I' ; ve seen so many Vietnamese people who, they would come over here. Barely speak English and create businesses. You know, like they' ; ll just pool all there talents together, all their money, and they' ; ll do something through just grit and determination. And to them, it' ; s like, " ; Well, that' ; s the whole reason we came." ; And for some of us that grow up here, it' ; s very easy for us to forget the opportunities that are here because we' ; re like, it' ; s normal to us. It' ; s not normal for the people that came over here. And so, those of us that grew up within this system, we can kind of take it for granted, unfortunately, until someone later on points it out to us. There was, I was talking my friend about how, you know, there was there was some article about like, you know, Asians who are seen as the stereotype of, like, so smart, entrepreneurial. How come there aren' ; t that many, that many Asian CEOs and this and that, you know. And I thought that was interesting and I thought about- this is my theory. I could be wrong about this. But like they, a lot of them are like, they don' ; t want to necessarily be CEO for someone else they' ; re looking at as well. I want to run my own thing. I want to do my own thing. You know, so that can do spirit of " ; I' ; m crossing the ocean to come over here so I can have freedom in terms of, you know, life and business." ; So I think that might be part of it. That' ; s my theory anyway. But yeah, they' ; re so proactive and gung ho about it that they' ; re just constantly looking at it as, you know, this is an opportunity, and I' ; m here to take advantage of it, you know? So to me, what it means to be American is, is, is portrayed and like I' ; m reminded of it the most through immigrants. If anything, you know, it' ; s like there' ; s, you know, the whole thing of like, " ; we' ; re built on the backs of immigrants" ; and it' ; s true. It' ; s just true. You know, we just, for better or worse, like the people, people that are born here and grew up here, like we kind of, we kind of forget because it' ; s normal to us, you know, they have that perspective of coming from not having those opportunities and then going, " ; Oh, I' ; m going to take advantage of it over here." ; You know, so like my like my dad, I remember when I was like, five. Like, his car broke down. He just like " ; Oh I' ; m walking to work." ; You know, so to them it was like, there' ; s no complaining. We' ; re here to move forward. So I' ; m going to, I' ; m going to keep moving. |01:06:01| Brody That' ; s great. Well, speaking of starting your own thing, you have your own photography business. Can you tell me about sort of the turning points and what led you to starting that business? |01:06:15| Viriyaki Initially, I just like loved art. I was making art in high school. I wasn' ; t exactly sure what I was going to do. I knew I was going to be something visual. I went to college. I eventually decided I' ; m going to probably going into advertising. And while in that major, I had photography as the elective. I started liking that major way more than, or I' ; m sorry, I started liking that, the photography class way more than the major I was in. So to get into the major, which University of North Texas calls " ; Communication Design" ; so you' ; re designing like how to communicate with words and images, and it eventually would branch off into either graphic design or advertising. So to get into this major, I had to take five prerequisite classes- Drawing1 and 2, Design 1 and 2, Art Appreciation. Had to submit five pieces of art and I had to write an essay. I remember at the time, I think they said something like 300 something on average students would apply and maybe like 90 would get in. So I applied. I got in. I' ; m excited. " ; Oh, yeah I know what I' ; m doing with my life" ; because you know, you know, you' ; ll meet the college kid," ; It' ; s like I switched majors eight times and came back to the first one, and I don' ; t know what I' ; m going to do. I' ; m not sure what I like in life." ; So for me, I was excited- just the fact I even knew what I wanted. So I go in there and taking my classes, I get accepted. Taking more of the classes of the major. But while I was in photography what dawned on me was, " ; Man, I' ; m liking this way more than the, the, the major I initially took." ; But I always felt like two years just to get into this, get in as major. And I thought, " ; Oh man, like, should I switch?" ; I already spent two years of my life in this thing. And there was like an Arnold Schwarzenegger quote. I can' ; t remember exactly what it was, but he was talking about when he worked out. You talked about every little pain that he got from exercising. He, he loved it. In his own words. It' ; s going to sound gross. He goes, " ; Every time I get a pump, it' ; s like, I' ; m coming. So every time I' ; m lifting weights and doing a curl can imagine I' ; m just coming all day." ; It' ; s such a weird analogy, but anyway. The other part of the quote was whenever you do something and you, and to others, it' ; s, it' ; s hard or painful, but you like it, you found your calling. So while in photography class at UNT, I would be there like all day, like morning till night, developing photos. I mean, just long hours. But I was absolutely fascinated by it, just seeing the pictures develop and trying to perfect it. So to me, even as I was there all day, man, I loved every minute of it. I remember two classmates coming in right, right as they walked in the door. They stopped, they looked at each other and one person kind of elbowed the other and goes, " ; See, I told you Thanin would be here." ; And then it was like, kind of like, " ; Oh, that' ; s funny." ; Because I' ; d just be there all day, you know, I was just like, obsessed of it. So through being obsessed with it, it was just very evident to me. It' ; s like, " ; This is this is really what I really want to do with my life." ; And so I remember a turning point in my dedication to photography was we had an assignment in Black and White 1, and we were supposed to do a depth of field assignment, which means you' ; re, you have to shoot something where everything in the photo is all sharp and then shoot another thing where one thing is in focus, everything else blurred out. Shallow depth of field, right. Two pictures of each. So I remember doing my photos and I' ; m in the middle of developing the film. I see someone else' ; s photo. I don' ; t know whose photo it is. It' ; s drying on the rack. Black and white photo. It' ; s a picture of a dandelion on a little hill. The dandelion' ; s in focus. Everything else on that hill is just blurred out. Dreamy mess. And I see this photo and I think, " ; Oh, my God. That' ; s so amazing. Like, that' ; s so beautiful." ; And I go " ; My pictures suck. Like, I cannot compete with this photo. This photo was way better than mine." ; So I threw my film away. I was like, " ; I' ; m not even going to finish my assignment or that roll. I' ; m going to go reshoot everything." ; Seeing that photo gave me a benchmark. I went back out, reshot it, made an A. The teacher, you know, you turn in four finished photos, but you also were supposed to shoot entire role of 24. I would shoot a roll of 36 to go overboard. So I just had it in my mind that, you know what, if I can' ; t be better than the classmates, how am I going to survive in the real world, right? So for me, it was just like one thing I could control was my effort. So I was I was going to go, I' ; m going to give it a thousand percent. I' ; m going to be the guy that gives you more than you asked for. And so I felt like that was like my way to sort of separate myself from everyone that, you know. The one thing I have, you know, within my power was that and I will say that being an Asian photographer, it kind of helped out because you do have at least some bit of support from the community. It can kind of go for you and against you. You know, I' ; ve experienced it and I' ; ve heard it from other photographers of, let' ; s say, like my Vietnamese friends, that are photographers or Indian friends are photographers, that whenever the people who are from your homeland try to do business with you, there is this weirdness of like some of them are like, really supportive. But then you also get some that are sort of like dismissive of your value because you' ; re so close to them. You know, some of them feel like you' ; re not worth what you' ; re charging and they' ; re much more likely to pay, be willing to pay full price to a Caucasian than they are to you. You know, they just, just for whatever reason, we just devalue ourselves, and it almost goes back to that whole thing of like that restaurant, Ngon, where they' ; re having the banh mi and it costs like twice what it normally would cost. You know, where they' ; re like, " ; Oh, you' ; re not, you' ; re making it for white people or whatever." ; So I' ; ve had to deal with that in the photography world, you know. So I had a Thai friend. He made the comment like, " ; Oh man, I bet you get our business from the Thai community." ; I' ; m like, " ; Are you kidding me?" ; Like, it all comes from like mainly the Vietnamese community because the Thai people, they' ; re just like again, I guess just because we' ; re Thai, they just feel like, " ; Oh, I don' ; t know, can you do this price?" ; And was like, " ; Oh man, why do I have to deal with that?" ; But I hear that from, like I said, my Vietnamese friends. When they with other Vietnamese people. They feel like they' ; re so close they' ; ll be like, " ; Hey, give me a discount, you know, from the homeland." ; So for better or worse? You know, we had to deal with that stuff. But I will say just in general, as an Asian business owner, we do get that support. And just as a photographer myself, I feel like there was less competition to get business because there weren' ; t that many photographers within our community. Whereas I' ; ll see on the forums of Caucasian photographers, I have to in essence complete with other, you know, Caucasian photographers. They can get lost because of the sheer numbers of businesses out there, whereas I' ; m sort of niche among the community that I kind of luckily stand out, you know, and some, some of the Asian photographers they' ; ll shoot within that niche. Then they' ; ll go, " ; You know what? I' ; m tired of niche. I need to advertise to break out of this because I' ; ve shot or it' ; s a shoot within this community, and they want to break out." ; So which is sort of like similar to how the restaurants kind of operate too, where the general attitude was for us to survive, we got to appeal to the bigger audience out there, which is, you know, Caucasian, right? They make up 80 percent of America. I' ; m not sure my statistics, but you. You know, Caucasians are the dominant ethnicity in America. So to make sense, like business wise, they cater to them, you know? But I will say that now, especially now, there' ; s so many Asian Americans that if you wanted to just be within that niche like you could do pretty well. I think with most businesses, I would, I would assume anyway. |01:14:58| Brody Do you feel like there are times where being Asian or knowing about Asian customs and culture has been helpful to you in photography? |01:15:09| Viriyaki Yeah, I think so because sometimes those are legitimate concerns, some clients and they' ; ll express that where they' ; re like, " ; Yeah, I want someone who kind of understands and can predict and know what' ; s going to happen." ; So if you' ; ve shot it before, they' ; re much more willing to work for you. I will say, though, that even if you were a Caucasian and you' ; re an expert, they' ; d be fine with going with them too. Because I' ; ve heard that too, where there are times when maybe I' ; m booked already and I need to send them a friend and the friend might be Caucasian, and they' ; re like, and I' ; ll go, " ; Hey, this person just shot a lot of Vietnamese weddings and they' ; re amazing. You should go with them." ; And the client, the potential client will be like, " ; All right, cool. Sounds good." ; You know, so but it' ; s more of a knowledge thing than anything. But the shortcut is you' ; re from that ethnicity or you' ; re close to the ethnicity. So I' ; m going to assume that you know it already, you know, so because they don' ; t, they don' ; t know what people know, right? So it does. It does. It does help you out. I' ; ll say that. |01:16:08| Brody So like in a wedding situation, what are some examples of things that that are helpful to know? |01:16:13| Viriyaki Well, depending on the culture, of course, and every culture will have their own like differences of like the flow of the day and certain what I call " ; mini events." ; For instance, if you' ; re doing like a Chinese wedding, a lot of them will have these wedding games in the morning, where the groom essentially has to earn his way into the house to see the bride. So if you' ; ll be at the front door and they sort of like lovingly haze the guys before they can come in and they have to pay their way in. So some of the games I' ; ve seen are, yeah, some of them are just like intentionally like made to embarrass the guy. So I saw one where they had Saran Wrap, and if the guys had to put on lipstick and then kiss each other on the different sides of the Saran Wrap. There was another game where they made the guys eat random things and it' ; s like, this one' ; s like a tiny shot glass of oil. This is salt. This is something spicy. I saw one where they put, and these are weddings I shot, where they had to put female underwear on on the outside of their pants, and then they strapped an empty tissue box around their waist, that ping pong balls on them and had to twerk the ping pong balls out. It' ; s like one of the funniest things I' ; ve ever seen in my life. So they' ; ll do these games, but it' ; s kind of cool to like if you' ; ve kind of know the general flow, you can be prepared for things like that, And, like a lot of Asian weddings will have these table rounds where they go around each table. The oldest person will give a little speech, they' ; ll do a toast, will give them envelopes of money. You know, so instead of like a wedding registry, they' ; ll actually hand them envelopes of cash. And generally the custom is to at least cover your meal from the wedding. And usually, at the end, the bride and groom will wind up kind of making a little bit of money in a sense, once they pay off everything. So it' ; s kind of helps them in their new life together. But yes, it is mainly like a predictive thing, you know, so you can kind of know what' ; s going to happen and just be prepared for it and whether that' ; s like from a creative standpoint or a technical standpoint. |01:18:28| Brody How did you get into food photography? |01:18:32| Viriyaki So I had...well, besides my dad being a chef, I had two aunts who had restaurants. I remember approaching one aunt and just was like, " ; Hey, can I photograph your food?" ; I forgot. I only remember what made the me initially even want to shoot the food. I don' ; t know if it was even driven by like from like a business standpoint, but I asked this aunt to shoot some of her food. I figure, who else is going to let me, you know, get all this food free, right? So I shot for her so she could use. And then not long after that, someone else that knew my family needed food photos. And I think my mom was the one who was like, " ; Oh, my son can do that. Go hire him." ; You know? So she' ; s sort of like, my agent. It' ; s kind of funny. You know, so every now and then she' ; ll recommend some restaurant to me, and she' ; ll just half jokingly, but of course, that means half seriously be like, " ; I need a little referral for a referral kickback." ; Kind of seems to be like an Asian parent thing, asking her kids for money. So yeah, I don' ; t remember what really, really made me get into it at first. Or like, what was the catalyst for that? I honestly don' ; t remember. I mean, maybe it was just sort of just out of curiosity. I really don' ; t remember. |01:19:57| Brody But you' ; ve done a lot. |01:19:58| Viriyaki Oh yeah. |01:19:59| Brody Tell me about some of the most memorable food photography jobs that you' ; ve done. |01:20:03| Viriyaki Oh, man. You know, I remember, one of the first interesting things I did, or at least evolved from it was, there' ; s a local sushi place that wound up being in like a list for Travel and Leisure and a photo I shot for them want to be in there? So it was a great source of pride for me to go, " ; Oh man, I' ; m in Travel Leisure. It' ; s a major publication." ; Yeah. So getting to shoot anything that' ; s big is incredibly validating, right? And it' ; s is great for your portfolio. Can like tell people, right? All right, so you know, so you like in the last year, I got to shoot some stuff for Taco Bueno, a restaurant that Dirk Nowitzki and Headington, the people that own the Joule, the hotel are invested in called Tango Room. And so that was kind of cool being a huge Dallas Mavericks fan to go, " ; Yeah, I shot this restaurant Dirk co-owns." ; Like, it' ; s kind of cool. One of the, I have to say, one of the first or the first dish we shot there was this appetizer. It was like this caviar dish. It' ; s an appetizer. $250. If you bought this dish. It had like beluga caviar and we' ; re just like, you know and luckily we shoot it, we got to eat it. Yeah, so that was great. And also, I got to shoot for Bonchon, the Korean fried chicken chain. So I shot for Red Bull before. Actually not their drinks, but one of their cliff diving competition, which, by the way, not many people know Red Bull is a Thai invention. Not many people know that. I have an interesting story about that. But yeah, so it' ; s just it' ; s just cool and validating just to have like some major company, you know, has the option to choose anyone. They choose you. It' ; s, it' ; s awesome. And of course, even if you shoot like the smaller restaurants to shoot it and then get to just eat free food, like that' ; s amazing. It' ; s a theory of mind. Even if you' ; re rich, like free food, like a huge thrill. You know, I' ; m not rich. I can' ; t, I can' ; t confirm, but I would assume, like, " ; Oh, free food, it' ; s amazing." ; I' ; m assuming Jeff Bezos, if you' ; re like, " ; Hey, you want, you want free lobster?" ; He' ; d be like, " ; Hell, yeah. You know?" ; |01:22:11| Brody So when you' ; re photographing food, what are the biggest things to remember or what do you what are you trying to do? What are you trying to aspire to? |01:22:20| Viriyaki Well, for me, shooting food, I' ; m usually trying to look at like the texture of the food and how to emphasize the texture. So there' ; s a, there' ; s like a saying that I came up with where it' ; s called. I say use light like an adjective. So when what I mean by that, is like what I want to describe, this person, thing, place. And a lot of it' ; s going to be crafted by the mood through the lighting. And so when I' ; m shooting for that, I' ; m usually trying to look at like, how can I emphasize this texture in an interesting way to make it look like they give the volume or just show like the moistness of it? Or maybe it' ; s like the heat, you know, with the steam. Sometimes the food needs a little bit of work. So, you know, we kind of take it upon ourselves to do the styling. And if the budget allows for it, you have a stylist there to kind of help you out and make it better than what I could do, of course. So most of the time, I' ; m trying to evoke a mood, you know, emotion, right? Which then hopefully entices people to want to go out and try that food that I' ; m trying to, like, essentially advertise for the business. Whenever I look at the food, I' ; m usually trying to like. go, " ; What' ; s the most optimal angle?" ; Sometimes you have to ask the chef, like " ; Which, what are you looking at? You know, like what are you trying to do with this dish?" ; So I think it' ; s interesting that with food, where I' ; m essentially reinterpreting someone else' ; s art, you know, I' ; m like, I' ; m like the translator, you know, until someone actually goes there and eats it, you know, because their art is the interesting about culinary art is, it' ; s a fleeting thing because unlike like a Vermeer painting, they make that art is for it to be optimal, you got to eat it basically right away, right there, you know? And then they got to redo it, you know, so that' ; s like the part of the fun and the challenge of it is that it is fleeting. And so I' ; m there to sort of capture it in its best literally and figuratively the best light to then entice other people to go, " ; This is art that you need to come consume yourself" ; you know, and hopefully it translates you, well, my translation. Yeah. So I think that' ; s interesting, you know? And again, it goes back to the whole collaborative nature of both art forms. |01:24:36| Brody Yeah, that' ; s really interesting. I' ; m going to go back in time a little bit to...You mentioned you went to UNT and studied there? What was it like to be in college during, during that time period? Were there are a lot of Asian students, where there are a lot of Thai students? And you know, what was that? What did it feel like? |01:25:05| Viriyaki Well, I' ; ll say this not too many Asian art students. Your parents will put up a fight. I' ; ll say that Asian parents are very practical. So when they if you tell them I' ; m going to be in any kind of art major, they' ; re the number one thing they' ; re going to go, " ; How are you going to live? How are you going to survive? You' ; re not going to make any money." ; Funny enough, I just saw on the internet this viral video of this girl where her parents were...She wanted to do something I think, like in like graphic design. I forgot something art related. And she' ; s crying in this video. And the parents are like, " ; You can' ; t, you can' ; t study that basically." ; And then the mom is being very insulting to the daughter, saying, " ; You' ; re not even good-looking enough to get a rich man." ; And this and that. And so in this post, all these Asians are just sort of like, " ; Yeah, I can relate, man" ; . The Asian parents, like, they' ; re going to want you to take like a more, you know, quote unquote normal job. And I had that kind of pushback, too. Luckily, not from my parents, but everyone around my, my parents. So my mom, she had four brothers. Three of them were successful. The one wasn' ; t, but three of them were very successful. One of them was like a general in the Thai army, another one was a lawyer. Another one was a chief of police in one of the districts in Bangkok. And so those three, there were all wealthy, like incredibly wealthy. They had maids that lived at them, huge houses. Unfortunately, mistresses. I mean, it was like a movie. They lived the life. Right? So I remember the police officer uncle, he was like lecturing my mom, going, " ; Oh, tell him not to draw so much. He' ; s not going to make any money. Make him be a lawyer or a doctor or whatever." ; You know. I mean, so to me, it' ; s incredibly validating that I, you know, get to make six figures doing what I love, you know, so I it' ; s like I was kind of like, I wouldn' ; t say it to him and be rude, but it' ; s kind of really like yells, I want to stick it to you, you know? So to be able actually do that, my mom is incredibly proud and she just always looked at as like, you know, when people would ask her about or talk to her about, you know, what I was studying. She' ; s kind of like, that' ; s what he loves, you know? And also because I paid my own way through college, working for my parents and working for the bank. You know, because of that, with art being expensive, it is me, me, me, me paying my own way. You know, they didn' ; t really have as much to say because I supported myself. Maybe you would have been different if they had to pay for all the expensive like Prisma colors and charcoal and all that stuff. But, you know, I guess that' ; s sort of like the Asian spirit of like, I' ; m going to do this and persevering like I took it upon myself to go, " ; I' ; m going to make this work and make this happen by myself." ; My family would, they would go on vacations without me. I would. I would go on vacation like, I don' ; t know if I want to spend that money because that could be a new lens. So I was thinking big picture all the time and they would go to like Thailand without me, and I would just hang back so I could just save more money. So I was thinking like big picture, stockpile more equipment so I can move up. And then later on in my adult life, I would get paid to travel. You know, so like, you know, free vacations, essentially. And so I feel like, like like I won, you know, like I, I invested in myself. I took the chance and it really paid off. You know, so it' ; s, it' ; s awesome looking back on it now and how fulfilling my career has been. All of people I' ; ve met and all the places I' ; ve gotten to go, so I' ; ve gotten the go on, you know, like I remember, right before Corona 2020, I went to shoot a wedding in New Zealand and I went to Thailand, Japan, then I shot in Paris for like a proposal, you know, and and later that year, I was supposed to shoot in Mexico twice. Wedding in Italy. Hawaii that particular year. And you know, Corona kind of took it away. But like I mean, I had some years where I' ; d go to like three or four countries every year and a multiple states within the year. You know, so to even go to any one place is like such a thrill and validation of your skill, you know? And I was like averaging like multiple international trips a year. And so I really felt like man, like proud of myself that I. You know, took that risk and it all paid off. |01:29:49| Brody It' ; s incredible. What is the Thai community like in North Texas today? |01:30:00| Viriyaki Oh, you know what, I was going to mention something. You' ; re asking about the college thing. Go back to it real quick about how there aren' ; t that many Asians in my major. I' ; ll say this. I would meet other Asians or run across other Asians at UNT, but because I look a little almost like I' ; m Hispanic. I think it' ; s because my eyelids folded and I have the high nasal bridge because my mom luckily had the nice nasal bridge. They would walk by speaking Thai, and there was a part of me wants to be like, " ; I' ; m Thai too." ; But they wouldn' ; t think I' ; m Thai. It' ; s kind of funny. Yeah. Oh gosh, there' ; s something else I was going to mention about. You' ; re asking me about my experience in college. Oh, I will say this. When I was a UNT, we would learn all of the a lot of the technical stuff, but they didn' ; t teach you about business and, you know, not that knock on them. But this is just in general. You don' ; t learn about business, you don' ; t learn about the interpersonal stuff. So you learn the core basics of lighting, technical, how to use a camera. But for you to survive and make a career out of it, that wasn' ; t really a thing they taught. At least not then. I don' ; t know how it is now. So that was something you had to sort of go out there, get your reps and learn on your own. And that was...it took a long time. I completely think that if the internet wasn' ; t around and didn' ; t grow, you know, along with me, I don' ; t know if I' ; d have the career I have now because so much of like having a career depends on networking, getting yourself out there, because the old traditional ways of getting yourself out there, I mean it costed of money. So now if you' ; re somebody who' ; s passionate and has vision, you can easily find knowledge now, like online. When I, after college, I remember going to libraries looking, specifically looking for photography books of studio lighting to get smarter and up my skills, and the books would be like from the 80s, you know, or there wouldn' ; t even be there at all. It' ; s like it' ; s so difficult. So the landscape of the internet opened everything up with everyone trying to sell their knowledge and then the free knowledge and YouTube out there. You know, I look at YouTube as like, you know, today' ; s library. I mean, there' ; s so many things that I' ; ve learned from. I remember we were playing badminton and I found some Korean badminton lessons in there. I don' ; t know what they' ; re saying, but I watched a guy and I kind of knew how to do some of the basic moves. You know what I mean, so it' ; s been an interesting journey as far as how much information is out there now, so that anyone that' ; s really, really looking for it, they can they can learn it. They don' ; t necessarily need that curated formal education. It is helpful, but you don' ; t necessarily need it, need it. And then also just technology, too, as it is in a place now that there' ; s stuff I could do now, I could never do back then. I mean, like the Chinese lighting companies that created alternative gear, that was really expensive over here. They, they innovated. They did. They weren' ; t. I mean, there were some that were just cheap copies, but there are some that were cheaper and better than what was, you know, the popular stuff to buy. So, for instance, one of the things to do studio lighting was you had to have this trigger that would go on your camera would send a radio trigger to a receiver, the receiver plug into the light. So when you shot the photo, it would send a signal set the light off. So it used to be $189 for the trigger. Another $189 for the receiver. So you' ; re looking at almost $400 just to have light that popped off wirelessly. And then there was this company that came out and it was like, " ; Oh yeah, just get this receiver or this trigger." ; And it' ; s like 70 bucks and you' ; d see these Chinese companies that eventually came in. It was like some of them were as cheap as like ten, fifteen dollars. And, you know, and then some came in and that was just to pop the light off. And then these other Chinese companies like, well, not only can you pop the light off, you can turn the sound on off. There' ; s a modeling light they has a LED in the light. You could turn that off. You could do different channels. Different groupings. Change the power independently of all those. You could do...they mentioned a, it' ; s like the sound. Whenever you take a picture, it' ; ll have this beeping noise you could turn out. So they had all these options, you could do it and it was cheaper. And again, just kind of like anyone that' ; s really, really trying to improve and is hungry for that knowledge. Well, now with the price point being lower, it kind of leveled the playing field. So, you know, at least in the photography community, I saw a lot of older established photographers are sort of bitter about that like, " ; Oh my God, these young people come in, they' ; re taking away my business." ; And they felt like just because they were there first, they were entitled to business. But you know, the nature of business is it' ; s it' ; s it' ; s kind of like evolution, you know, it' ; s survival of the fittest. So if you' ; re not out there trying to be different, you' ; re not out there trying to like, make relationships with people, you' ; re not out there, you know, moving with the trends, you will get left behind, you know, and people are going to move on. And so the people who are truly visionaries, they' ; ll stick around and the people that are from the old school, being sort of gatekeeping about the industry, you know, they had to move on to other things, you know? I had a friend who she would say, " ; Oh, I' ; ve been shooting, I' ; ve been doing this for. I forgot how many years leading up to three decades, and I think this is the best way." ; And she' ; d lament to me like, " ; Oh man, how come I get all the boring clients? Like your clients so much more fun?" ; Oh you' ; re stuck in the past? And if I do anything that' ; s modern and you kind of scoff, " ; Oh, I don' ; t know about that." ; Well, what you put out, your portfolio is going to draw certain clients to you, right? So, you know, you got to you got to evolve. But yeah, so the technology with the internet and just the lighting gear like, I was sort of in a perfect spot growing up. I mean, I almost wish I was, you know, coming into it now because I would save so much money and there' ; s so much advancement now. But it definitely helped. It was this, you know, I thought about that a lot of how like, " ; Man, I wish I was more successful earlier on." ; I' ; d have like so much more money because back then, it' ; s like just trying to build your portfolio and buying so much equipment that then would get outdated. And then you' ; d find a better option, like a year later, two years later, months later, maybe. And you' ; re like, " ; Oh man, I wasted that. I don' ; t even use it anymore, you know," ; I' ; d have so much money saved. |01:37:03| Brody Now the technologies are expensive. |01:37:05| Viriyaki Yeah, it moves fast. So anyway, sorry, what was your question? |01:37:09| Brody Well, we were just talking about the Thai community in general. And sort of another question I had was during the time that you were in college and when you were growing up, how close was that community and what were the sort of the ways that the community socialized or, you know, or got together? |01:37:29| Viriyaki So I, around college time, I really didn' ; t know that many Thai people. I was living in Fort Worth. I don' ; t believe the Thai community around there was like, there is that many people. I usually wound up meeting, mainly Vietnamese or Laos people over there. It wasn' ; t till I was in Dallas that I started meeting more time people. Right after college, I remember. You know, there' ; s a there' ; s a lot of Thai young adults would be over here and one of the reason they could really stay was they were in school and they' ; d work for these restaurants. So on like Friday or Saturday nights like these restaurants would close and essentially they' ; d throw these parties with these young Thai adults would gather like 20, 30, 40 people in the restaurant and they' ; d serve food on like Styrofoam plates so they don' ; t have to wash them. Some other Thai people would bring in their instruments and start playing live music. So they, you know, we kind of create our own little scene there among our, you know, little cliques hanging out like it we' ; d be over this side of the bar and the other clique would be over there. And so we were just, you know, we kind of took it upon ourselves to cater to our needs, which is sort of, I think, a theme among a lot of immigrants, you know, and it' ; s created its own ecosystem of businesses of making the comforts of home over here. The Thai community itself, I felt like they, and I think it' ; s a generational thing. I think I think that the Thai American kids that grow up now are much more assimilated than the ones I met when I was growing up. And because of that, I felt like the people I was around, when I was in my early 20s, I felt like they weren' ; t as adventurous, or as outgoing as some of the kids are now. What, what I mean by outgoing is they kind of stuck to their other Thai friends. And I don' ; t know if that was a language barrier or cultural barrier. But I see, you know, the kids of today, they' ; re much more open to being around all these other people. Different types of Asian, Caucasians? Not to say that that group back then wasn' ; t, but I didn' ; t see it as nearly as much because I remember just as a small sample example, there was this thing called the Dragon Boat Race in Irving, Las Colinas, actually. And. I remember seeing an entire basically entire team of like, I think, Taiwanese people or Chinese. There was another team that' ; s made up of like 90 percent who were Vietnamese, and I would ask my Thai friends like, " ; Hey, you want to go do this thing like this dragon boat race?" ; Where I' ; d go, " ; Hey, you want to do a mud run?" ; And they' ; re just like, " ; I don' ; t want to get dirty or, you know, like, who else is going?" ; And it' ; s just, I just remember feeling a little frustrated. I' ; m like, " ; Why are we so lame?" ; I know if sounds terrible, putting down my people? But it just seemed like the Vietnamese community is so much cooler. Like they were just so much more open to trying all this stuff, you know? I don' ; t know what made them so reserved, but I feel like the younger generation now growing up is much more open to doing so much more things are much more adventures of getting out there, trying out of stuff. So the community is, you know, it' ; s kind of a small world, I guess. It seems like so many, at least the Thai people, so many just kind of know each other for better or worse, which could lead to, you know, just like needless drama. You know, so which I suspect that' ; s kind of a thing with all the all the minorities. It' ; s just it. Just it is what it is. |01:41:24| Brody I' ; m going to go backwards one more time, which is you mentioned when you were growing up, when you were quite young, that in Haltom City, there were the couple of other Thai families and one of them had the movie store. And one of them had the meatball factory. Can you tell me more about those two businesses? |01:41:43| Viriyaki You know, the movie store people, we don' ; t really keep in touch with them that much. I don' ; t have much to really explain further about them, unfortunately. I will say the meatball factory people, they were close friends of my parents. They eventually sold their factory to I believe a Laos family. And last year, funny enough, I wound up shooting photos for the website of that meatball company. And I asked them, like, " ; Hey, so did you guys buy this company from a man named man named Som" ; And they' ; re like, Yeah, yeah." ; I was like, " ; Wow, so funny." ; I told them how I grew up next to it. And so Somsak he when he had a second location for his factory, the one that was near my parents' ; restaurant was the first one. He then moved somewhere else, got a bigger factory. Next door, was a dry cleaning place. So his, his the owner of that dry cleaning place was this old man who he had no family. And was, " ; Oh I' ; m going to retire, you want to buy my business?" ; So he bought it and then he transitioned into dry cleaning. Somsak did. And so I believe those dry cleaning plants are still around. I think so. I know his son, his oldest son, he had two sons and a daughter, the oldest son. His Thai nickname is " ; luk chin" ; which essentially translates to " ; meatball." ; So just like, " ; Hey, Meatball!" ; Funny, his real name is Bobby. But he keeps in touch with my sister because he lives in Austin. My sister lives near Austin. So they still keep in touch. My sister is the one that, if anything is true historian. She keeps in touch with everyone. Much more social. I' ; m just working all the time. So yeah, he sold the meatball company off and man and honestly, I think they make the best Asian meatballs around. So I' ; m glad it' ; s still going on. There' ; s a few products they don' ; t make anymore, which I' ; m sad. But man, he had like what they call " ; heaven beef" ; Nua Sawan. And it was like, it was like the best. And I don' ; t think they make that anymore. It' ; s too bad. Now talk about it, I need to call my sister, see if they can give me the recipe. Maybe he' ; ll, maybe he' ; ll let me make it. If there' ; s one thing I' ; m really sad about my dad passing away, you know, besides, him passing away, of course, I wish he was around now to see how further the western palate has gone, how much more open because, you know, like just stuff like selling the beef jerky, it' ; d be so much easier to get out there. People are so much more receptive. I mean, just like social media and online presence like to sell your food items, it' ; s, you know, ghost kitchens. There' ; s so much we could have done instead of just being stuck at the brick and mortar place and hoping people stumble upon you. You know, I wish my dad was around to see that because it would have been really interesting for him to see and also for us to like, just take advantage, then just have to have fun, especially like just experimenting, you know, with different recipes and whatnot. You know, I wish he was around to do that. I see some of the younger Asians doing that with their parents now where they' ; re helping their parents do this social media side of things and taking the orders and the the mom, usually it' ; s the mom that' ; s making like the food, you know? And I' ; ve bought some too, where it' ; s like you go to their Instagram and you' ; re like, you' ; ll see them post the prices and items they have and you do, they' ; ll have like a little pick up spot, you Venmo them, you know, so it' ; s it' ; s cool to see that out there, that that' ; s going on, and it' ; s evolved to that. Because like, sometimes like restaurants themselves, like the logistics of restaurants, they can only make certain things because it' ; ll keep well. But then for you to actually like, someone will make something special and it' ; s being made this particular day, putting in your order now. So now they know exactly what to make, like. It opens of doors and makes some interesting food that you normally couldn' ; t get. Right, right. So I wish my dad was around because then he could have done more than what the restaurant usually offered. |01:45:54| Brody Now that really has changed. The whole landscape has changed and evolved. Well, I just want to say thank you for sitting for this interview and ask you if there' ; s anything that I didn' ; t ask you that you want to include. |01:46:11| Viriyaki Hmm. I' ; m drawing a blank right now, but a bet like later tonight, I' ; ll think of something. Let me think about this. What aspect have we not even touched on? I mean, maybe might have covered everything. Let me think. Oh, you know what, I' ; ll at least do this. That Red Bull story. So I remember I was having dinner with my parents many, many, many years ago. My father was still alive. And I was at dinner with my parents and there were a lot of people their age who were at the restaurant with them. And there was one gentleman there. He talked about how he knew the inventor of Red Bull and- in Thailand. And the inventor says to this guy, " ; Hey, I made this drink. I' ; m selling it in bottles. Door to door." ; So the Red Bull in Thailand is different from what we know it here because it' ; s non-carbonated and it' ; s in these short, stubby bottles. They' ; re like dark brown, almost like a A-1 sauce bottle, but it' ; s shorter. And he was kind of like, " ; You' ; re selling drinks door to door?" ; Like what? Like he said, " ; I don' ; t know, man, is this going to work?" ; So he passes it up and he' ; s like, " ; I' ; m an idiot. I' ; d be so rich now if I went sold those drinks to him." ; You know, the story goes that there was an Austrian businessman, I believe, on a trip to Japan drank this thing called Krating Daeng, which means Red Bull. And he' ; s like, " ; Oh, I got a little bit of pep." ; And if I' ; m correct, the story is that he and the original inventor, he came and bought like half the company, both like 49 percent shareholders and the Austrian, Austrian businessman brought it over into the west, dominates the landscape of energy drinks, right? So when I shot the Red Bull Cliff Diving Championship and Possum Kingdom Lake, I' ; m kind of marveling at because I' ; m like thinking back to that story going, " ; This guy was selling this drink door to door. And now all the way here, with all these people here jumping off a cliff, you know, like Red Bull merch every day, you know, like multibillion dollar company." ; Like, it' ; s kind of amazing, you know? And even though maybe that guy isn' ; t here, like that' ; s sort of like. I guess a good parallel, just Asians coming over and finding their own space within America. To see that dream come over, and it has its own history in place here too, you know, and to be accepted, you know, because like before Red Bull, like, what energy drink did we have, right? You know, so it' ; s kind of interesting thinking about the evolution of that. As a parallel with the rest of our cuisine, too. |01:49:07| Brody Yeah, that' ; s really, really interesting. Thank you for sharing that story. Well, again, thank you so much. This has been so interesting and I really am thankful to have your story included in this. |01:49:18| Viriyaki Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Thanin Viriyaki, April 19, 2022
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2021oh002_di_009
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Thai
Photography of food
Asian grocer
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2022-04-19
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audio
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890f1d44d384e04b8cb00e6f2abdfa44
Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Renuka Shah
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5.4 Interview with Renuka Shah, December 9, 2021 2021oh002_di_003 01:09:20 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Indian Grocers, Asian American Asian American grocers Renuka Shah Betsy Brody m4a oh_audio_dig_shah_renuka_20211209.m4a 1:|17(11)|41(9)|61(7)|82(8)|108(14)|125(13)|145(16)|171(14)|189(6)|209(11)|225(2)|243(2)|257(13)|276(13)|290(1)|305(12)|325(5)|348(3)|365(12)|385(6)|408(8)|432(10)|445(13)|463(4)|488(6)|501(4)|517(12)|548(12)|575(5)|592(8)|605(10)|622(4)|647(1)|669(9)|696(6)|716(11)|733(8)|743(11)|762(11)|780(15)|794(8)|809(11)|825(12)|848(7)|868(9)|880(7)|900(3)|915(10)|930(11)|951(2)|967(5)|987(3)|998(12)|1008(11)|1035(10)|1054(14)|1066(9)|1091(17)|1115(6)|1134(1)|1145(10)|1164(5)|1185(1)|1204(3)|1217(12)|1232(2)|1248(2)|1263(11)|1292(5) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/164466 Aviary audio 7 Introduction Asian American grocers ; Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Indian cooking ; Texas--History 39 Coming to Texas from India Asian grocery ; Baroda ; Dallas ; groceries ; Gujurat ; Houston ; India ; Indian community ; Indian grocery store ; New York ; Richardson ; Taj Mahal Imports ; Texas 308 Opening Taj Mahal Imports in Richardson advertising ; Asian grocery ; community hub ; Indian community ; Indian grocery store ; labor ; marketing ; Taj Mahal Imports ; White Pages 32.95475579890853, -96.73798630392501 17 491 Stocking the Taj Mahal Imports/ Relationship with neighboring businesses beans ; competition ; cooking ; customers ; groceries ; Indian grocery store ; meat ; neioghbors ; pickles ; rice ; spices ; sweets ; vegetarian 672 Adding products at customer request and expanding the store Asian grocery ; cooking ; customers ; expand ; expansion ; growth ; Indian groceries ; kitchen utensils ; products ; shamposs ; soaps ; vegetables 758 Transition to importing products directly from India business ; City of Richardson ; English ; expansion ; fax ; FDA ; growth ; health department ; health inspection ; import ; importing ; language ; manufacturers ; telephone ; warehouse ; wholesaler 1127 Advertising for the Taj Mahal Imports advertising ; customers ; flyers ; mailers ; markting ; telephone ; White Pages 1319 Impact of H1 visa holders on business and customer base bridge ; Britain ; British ; British products ; connect ; connections ; customers ; diversity ; England ; friendship ; H1 visa ; Indian food ; IT ; products 1479 Local interest in cooking Indian food beans ; biriyani ; cookbooks ; cooking class ; Indian food ; ingredients ; recipes ; rice ; spice ; vegetables ; vegetarian 1666 Expansion of Taj Mahal Imports ayurvedic ; British prodicts ; chaat ; expand ; expansion ; fast food ; growth ; Indian grocery store ; kitchen utensils ; products ; soft drinks ; sweets 1784 Atmosphere of the store/ Taj Mahal Imports as a community hub community center ; decorations ; festival ; festivas ; football ; Holi ; hub ; Indian festivals ; Kite Festival ; Taj Mahal Imports 2019 Diwali Festival and rangoli display 9/11 ; art ; bridge ; community ; Diwali ; educate ; education ; festivals ; Ganesha ; hub ; Kalpana Chawla ; rangoli ; sweets ; themes 2386 Taj Mahal Imports as a hub for the Indian community in Dallas ATM ; business ; customers ; flyers ; hub ; information ; kulfi ; networking wall ; phone cards ; Taj Mahal Imports ; VHS ; video rental ; videos 2596 Video rentals of popular Indian films VHS ; video rentals ; videos 2703 Growth of the Indian community in Dallas/ Establishment of the India Association connect ; connecting ; fundraising ; growth ; hub ; India Association ; Indian community ; information ; network ; religion 3124 Hosting tournaments for the US Carrom Association carrom ; tournaments ; US Carrom Association 3344 Organizing the Guinness Book of World Records " ; longest Carrom game" ; Carrom ; Guinness Book of World Records 3566 Religious, cultural, and language products carried for customers books ; dances ; festivals ; jewelry ; language ; religion ; wedding 3843 Reflections on changes in the landscape of Indian stores and products connection ; customer service ; hub ; Indian grocery stores ; products (00:00:07) Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is December 9th, 2021. I am interviewing for the first time, Mrs. Renuka Shah. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship, and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Hi, Mrs. Shah. How are you? (00:00:37) Renuka Shah I' ; m doing fine, thank you, Betsy. (00:00:39) Brody To get started, why don' ; t you just tell me where and when you were born? (00:00:44) Renuka Shah I was born in India, in the state called Gujarat in city Baroda. (00:00:53) Brody How did you get to Texas? (00:00:56) Renuka Shah I migrated. My sister sponsored me on immigration, and I migrated to New York, and then we had a kind of job already given to us in Houston, so we moved to Houston. (00:01:15) Brody What kind of work were you doing in Houston? (00:01:17) Renuka Shah I was doing the accounting work. (00:01:21) Brody About what year was that that you got to Houston? (00:01:25) Renuka Shah We came to Houston in 1981. (00:01:28) Brody You and your husband? (00:01:30) Renuka Shah Yes. (00:01:31) Brody And your family stayed in New York, your sister. (00:01:35) Renuka Shah Yes. They are still in New York. Yes, they will stay. (00:01:38) Brody Excellent. So here in Dallas, when you got to Dallas, you were- you and your husband started a grocery store. Can you tell me a little bit about the path that led you to that store? (00:01:55) Renuka Shah Yes, I was working in Houston. And so I quit my job and my husband got the offer to start the business in Dallas. And so we both moved here and I, initially, we started from ground up, so we both started settling the business, starting the business. And so I was with him for like the first year, and then I started going back to work for the bank in my accounting field. (00:02:28) Brody Had you ever done anything like a grocery store before? (00:02:31) Renuka Shah No, not really. Not before that. (00:02:35) Brody So what was the store called? (00:02:38) Renuka Shah Store was called Taj Mahal Imports. (00:02:41) Brody Great. And what type of store was it? (00:02:44) Renuka Shah It was mainly...It started with the Indian grocery store. For the first few years, and then we started adding the wide variety of stuff that Indians would need. (00:03:00) Brody At that time in Dallas, were there a lot of Indians? (00:03:04) Renuka Shah Yes. There were a lot of Indians. (00:03:05) Brody Yeah, tell me about what the community and what Dallas was like when you got here. And about what year was that? (00:03:11) Renuka Shah It was 1983? 83. We started the business, so there were lots of Indians who were in mainly motel businesses. Motel owners and the- there was another people. Some other people, they were in a working professional jobs and stuff. (00:03:37) Brody So were there any other Indian grocery stores or restaurants in Dallas at that time? (00:03:42) Renuka Shah Yes. There was only one small grocery store and one Indian restaurant. (00:03:50) Brody Great. Do you remember what the restaurant was called? (00:03:52) Renuka Shah It was called India Palace. And yeah, there was one small...Another restaurant there was called Kebab N Kurry. That was in Richardson, too. Yeah. (00:04:03) Brody Got it. So the store was in in Richardson. (00:04:06) Renuka Shah Oh yes. (00:04:06) Brody Yes. Where? Where was it located in Richardson? (00:04:10) Renuka Shah It was located at the southwest corner of Beltline and Highway 75. (00:04:17) Brody How did you decide on that location? (00:04:23) Renuka Shah Me, I mean, both of us and our partner who- from Houston, we all came here. He had done some research and some homework, and then we had a couple friends here in Dallas. So we kind of took their opinion also, and they said, " ; No, that would be the good location." ; So that' ; s how we could finalize. (00:04:44) Brody Great. So did it turn out to be a good location? Was it attractive to customers? Were you able to reach people? (00:04:51) Renuka Shah Yes, it was. It turned out to be a really good location. (00:04:54) Brody Yeah. Tell me about what it was like to start. (00:04:57) Renuka Shah So yeah, and the location was like very in and out, easy in and out to the highways and the other roads. Yeah. (00:05:04) Brody Was that? Yes, that' ; s that makes a big difference. Tell me about the process of starting a grocery store at that time. (00:05:14) Renuka Shah It was like good old days. Like there was no cell phones, no GPS. Nothing. So it was like starting from ground up, buying anything, calling the construction people, or calling the prospective customers. Everything was just like with the landline and the maps. You would drive around there to buy something. It was really a good experience, of course, but a lot of hard work. (00:05:41) Brody Yes. So speaking of reaching customers, how did you let people know that you were starting this new store? (00:05:49) Renuka Shah We started using the White Pages and started calling the some of the common last names that we know that Indian would, Indians have. And so we started calling them first. And we gathered the addresses and some of them would say, and luckily somebody would say, " ; Oh, I' ; m a president of this association, so I will give you more and more information for the people." ; That' ; s how we could get more and more people' ; s addresses. (00:06:23) Brody And you mailed them? (00:06:25) Renuka Shah We mailed them the grand opening information where we are and all that. (00:06:29) Brody What do you remember about the day of the grand opening? What was it like for you? (00:06:34) Renuka Shah It was really, really exciting. Very nice. And we had announced the grand opening. What do you call the draw- the first few customers and then we had announced the prize also, right? Oh yeah. What was the prize like? I forgot. (00:06:52) Pramod Shah Few customers used to come there and says, " ; OK. We are opening a...we want to have a grand opening within a few days. So we have we are going to give TV, TV, right? (00:07:11) Renuka Shah It has one TV. I guess, we... (00:07:14) Pramod Shah Whoever wins and so many people give us their name, address everything. (00:07:18) Renuka Shah Yeah. (00:07:19) Pramod Shah Then we took out a name. (00:07:20) Renuka Shah So, whoever came, we were taking their, having them drop their name and addresses in the box, and then we would announce, we would draw a name. And that' ; s how we gave out to the one TV and some other small prizes to the other people. (00:07:37) Brody And in return, you got the addresses of the customers. So do you remember? Did a lot of people come for the grand opening? (00:07:47) Renuka Shah Yes. Yes. A lot of people came. (00:07:49) Brody Yeah. Do you have a sense of how many people and? (00:07:53) Pramod Shah Grand opening... (00:07:54) Renuka Shah I really don' ; t. But, the store would be busy all day. It was nice. (00:08:01) Pramod Shah Though, and the employee, very few at that time. We were not knowing how many employees we needed. (00:08:09) Renuka Shah Yes. (00:08:10) Brody So at the time that you opened the store, what were the things that you were stocking in the store? (00:08:19) Renuka Shah Mainly the Indian groceries, the spices and the beans and rice and oil and all that stuff. Besides that, some sweets and stuff. And then we had what else, some like cookies and crackers and all that Indian, all the Indian stuff. Pickles. Pickles. Yeah. So basically daily, any Indian lady would need to make their own complete meal. Yeah, all the ingredients of that. (00:08:54) Brody And your customers, how did they react to having an opportunity to purchase all those things that they would need to cook an Indian meal? (00:09:03) Renuka Shah They were very, very happy. Very, very happy because lot of stuff that was not available before then, also... (00:09:11) Pramod Shah (Inaudible) (00:09:13) Renuka Shah And then the quality and the service they noticed. They were really, really happy. (00:09:19) Brody That' ; s great. What were your biggest sellers? Do you remember? (00:09:24) Renuka Shah During that time? What was the biggest seller? Grocery, definitely groceries. Yes. (00:09:32) Brody So your store itself, you had neighbors around the store, other types of shops? What type of relationship did you have with those neighbors in Richardson? (00:09:46) Renuka Shah Yes, we do. When we started, there was only as an Indian business, we were the only ones in the shopping center. But one mile away, the next exit, there were other Indian businesses like travel agency, restaurants, and sari store and stuff. Clothing store. They all then moved into our shopping center, so it was like a big hub for Indians. Jewelry store. Everything came. And, so I guess what was your other part of the question? (00:10:20) Brody What was your relationship with? (00:10:22) Renuka Shah Oh yeah, we were having a very good, healthy relationship. And before that, there was one grocery store and we would even...When we pick- somebody comes and ask us something in the beginning, and if we don' ; t have something or if they are looking for something specific, where is the clothing store or something, we will point them and we will call that owner also, and like, " ; I' ; m sending this customer to you." ; And then to the other grocery store also, we were having a very healthy relationship. We would say, (00:10:56) Pramod Shah For meat, you know, we say " ; This is OK. We don' ; t do that. Sorry. But, if you go there, they sell the meat." ; (00:11:06) Brody Right? So your store did not sell meat? (00:11:08) Renuka Shah No, never. Yeah. (00:11:13) Brody So it sounds like you really were priding yourselves on customer service and providing what your customers needed, even if you didn' ; t carry it in your store. Tell me about how you found out about other products that there was a demand for and what types of products those might have been? (00:11:36) Renuka Shah Sometimes customers would request us. And the other thing was like we were adding more as we had more and more space occupied, we were adding more stuff, right? (00:11:52) Brody What types of things were you adding gradually? (00:11:55) Renuka Shah Oh OK. Gradually, we were adding, for example, let' ; s say in people are used to Indian soaps or shampoos and stuff. Or hair oils and stuff. So we started adding all that line. Then we also added after that, like in your kitchen utensils, because they would need for cooking and stuff. So this was the top of the line quality. We started importing that. And so they were very happy about that. And of course, vegetables, we started from the beginning, right? Fresh vegetables we were selling from the beginning, though. (00:12:33) Pramod Shah Yeah, yeah. (00:12:35) Brody Great. So these new products and the old products that you were carrying in the store...Walk me through the process of how you, their journey to get to the store. How did you source them? You know, what were your sort of your process of getting them supplied and their journey to your store? (00:12:57) Renuka Shah Oh, OK. As far as the products. We were initially, we were buying it from the wholesalers within United States and then eventually we started importing. We were like direct importers to retail in our stores because we had expanded by the time and created two more stores. Right? (00:13:22) Brody OK, really? Where were the other stores? (00:13:25) Renuka Shah One we started the first one, we started was in Denver, Colorado. OK? And then a couple years later, yes, we started in Atlanta, Georgia. (00:13:35) Brody Do those stores still exist? (00:13:37) Renuka Shah No. Everything is final. (00:13:39) Brody So when you were importing from directly from India, you know, again, like you said before, no cell phones, no anything. Tell me about how you handled that and what was the sort of nuts and bolts day to day of running a business like that? (00:13:57) Renuka Shah And after the store, we used to come at night at home. We had like a landline and then the wire and the fax machine and stuff. And so he talks to the Indian exporters and the manufacturers over the phone, writes everything manually, handwritten. Then we fax over to the manufacturer the order and the exporter. And then again, they start talking every day. This was the process like. And then because of that and the time difference between India and US, we were awake till like 2:00 a.m. Yeah. (00:14:39) Brody And India is such a large country with so many different languages. When you were making these phone calls, was business primarily conducted in English, then? (00:14:49) Renuka Shah Yes, but then depends on the which area and which people we are talking to. If we are talking to someone who is also speaking of our own mother language or something, we can always communicate better and explain them what we want and whatnot. So we would speak like that sometime and the rest of the time it was all national language, Hindi or English. Yeah. (00:15:16) Brody It' ; s interesting. So, back to the manufacturers... So you would find out about products that either you thought were interesting or that were popular, or that your customers asked for and then, tell me how you sort of got them to the store. You called directly to the manufacturers? (00:15:39) Renuka Shah Yes. We did place the order to the manufacturers. (00:15:43) Pramod Shah And manufacturers. Usually they gave us the distributor name and telephone number and everything. (00:15:50) Renuka Shah So then they supply to the our exporters. And then they would ship it to us. And then we have to go through the process of like a health, FDA inspection and health department inspections, right? (00:16:09) Brody Yeah, that reminds me. Yes. Tell me more about that process. (00:16:13) Renuka Shah City Health Department. (00:16:14) Brody Yeah. From the new Customs aspect of it, of getting it into the country to the even the local level, the city, city health. Tell me all of the sort of interactions that you had as store owners with levels of government. (00:16:34) Renuka Shah Mostly. (00:16:35) Pramod Shah And then we put, before we started importing, we got one warehouse also, because we cannot do it, we cannot because it' ; s a huge _________ . (00:16:46) Renuka Shah Because it comes in a huge container. Container load. And so we have to have a warehouse to first unload over there and then (00:16:56) Pramod Shah It has to go to the warehouse. Then my people working in the warehouse, they sort out, and then the FDA people also come to check. And they know that the warehouses is and they go there and do whatever they want to sampling to check it out. They take the samples from there. And then they come to the store. They give me the list also. These are the things we are taking for, you know, sample. (00:17:25) Brody Interesting. So and what about the City Health? (00:17:29) Pramod Shah City health comes in the store. (00:17:31) Renuka Shah They will come into the store only. (00:17:33) Pramod Shah And leave the warehouse. (00:17:33) Brody OK, not the warehouse. (00:17:35) Renuka Shah And they will come unannounced. So that' ; s good for us because we have to be ready with, you know, health compliance? Everything, all the time. (00:17:46) Brody Then in a similar vein, the sort of process of opening this store. Tell me about the, you know, once you decided you wanted to be in Richardson, what was the, you know, the interaction in terms of what did you have to do to be able to open that store? (00:18:03) Renuka Shah Oh, OK. We had to first apply for the- actually register the name of the business (00:18:12) Pramod Shah And anybody has given that name, we don' ; t... (00:18:15) Then they will not say, no, you cannot have that name. So name of the business and DBA, the corporation name also. And then be able once we load the store and stuff, then the health department comes, right? And of course, everybody is involved then. The building inspection and Fire Department, Business Department, building, local health. (00:18:41) Pramod Shah City of Richardson' ; s health department people. (00:18:47) Brody OK, and let' ; s now talk about advertising. What was the process? I know, at the beginning, you sought out the names from the White Pages and sent out mailers. Then you had the grand opening and gathered more names. Going forward, you know, you' ; re the only Indian grocery store in town. What did you do to keep your name out there? (00:19:11) Pramod Shah The very first advertisement, you know, after we started the store, there' ; s so many people, you know, they don' ; t know. Again, she called everybody, you know who has, you know... (00:19:21) Renuka Shah Not received the sale flyer. But then after we started with this mailing, manual mailing list, that we had, the addresses we got from people and all. So we started mailing the flier like maybe quarterly or every month or some one page at least. (00:19:40) Pramod Shah They said, " ; We are not getting the, your sale paper." ; (00:19:46) Renuka Shah OK, give us your address. So we started adding the addresses like that. (00:19:50) Pramod Shah We don' ; t have to ask anyone. They, they come and say OK. Because, you know, all the friends talking in and out, " ; Oh we got it, we got it." ; So we got a lot, a huge, huge. (00:20:02) Brody Mailing list. (00:20:05) Pramod Shah First five years, first four or five years, there were 6000 addresses. (00:20:12) Renuka Shah Or more. (00:20:14) Pramod Shah That covers, we didn' ; t even know. That there are, besides the south area, Dallas south, up to Waco. Waco' ; s too...has population at that time also Indian. So from Waco, to Amarillo. (00:20:35) Renuka Shah We had people coming from (00:20:37) Pramod Shah 300 mile radius, people used to come, because they have... (00:20:44) Renuka Shah They never had the store. (00:20:45) Pramod Shah Owner of the- there are motels in all of those stops. They need food. So they come too slowly, slowly. Lubbock, Amarillo, everywhere, people started coming. (00:20:59) Brody People were coming to your store from all over. (00:21:02) Pramod Shah And the same people must be driving 200 miles more and go to Houston. (00:21:08) Brody Yeah, but they got to the- I bet they were happy that they had a store here in Dallas and didn' ; t have to drive as far. That' ; s great. So you had a robust customer base from all over Texas, really? Were your customers mostly Indian at the beginning? (00:21:30) Renuka Shah Yes. (00:21:31) Brody Did that change over time? (00:21:34) Renuka Shah Yes, it changed over time. (00:21:37) Pramod Shah Go down, but how we realize is, OK, he must have moved to somewhere else or something, you know, yeah, but... (00:21:43) Renuka Shah No meaning besides Indians. Do did you get other customers? Did that change over the time? (00:21:50) Pramod Shah You say the that thing started from the year 1998. 98? (00:21:59) Renuka Shah Yeah. Before that, it was like very few other customers other than Indians. (00:22:03) Brody Yeah. Tell me about that. The, when you saw that change in 1998, what do you think was- what do you think led to that change? (00:22:14) Renuka Shah The major, major role that played is on the people who came from India on H1 visa to work on the- IT people, especially IT professionals. They came and they were working in this area, in these big companies around us. And so they were working with the other, their coworkers with like other ethnicity, other nationality, local or everybody else. So then they have they become friends and go out for lunch together or dinner together? So that' ; s how they started bringing some, you know, their friends over to the store and they came to know about our products and some ready-to-eat stuff, like samosa and stuff. They loved it. Yeah. (00:23:05) Brody So you then that led to a whole different clientele. And then did that change sort of how you- the types of things that you carry, did that bring in some different, different lines? (00:23:20) Renuka Shah Oh yes. But mainly the British items, specially. Because some people, it started with the Indian asking for it, who moved from Britain to here. So with that request, we started importing some British stuff- cookies, candies, jams, all kind of stuff. So then eventually the local white British people who needed that grocery also...that stuff. So they came to know. So they started coming to buy those. (00:23:54) Brody And I' ; m sure they were happy to see those products. (00:23:58) Renuka Shah Yes. They were very happy. (00:23:59) Brody So. So over the years, then, your business reached not just Indians, but also, you know, like you said, that British people who were living in this area and also, do you feel other communities came in as well? (00:24:22) Renuka Shah Local natives? Yes. (00:24:25) Pramod Shah The British community, they must be having a friend, also. Local friend. (00:24:30) Renuka Shah Local. Americans. (00:24:33) Pramod Shah You cannot get these candies, like these candies, anywhere in the United States. (00:24:39) Brody So not just the candy, though, but did you also find that there were people who were not Indian who were learning or trying to cook Indian food? (00:24:51) Renuka Shah Yes. (00:24:51) Brody Tell me about that. (00:24:53) Renuka Shah Yeah. (00:24:54) Pramod Shah We have lots of books also. Cooking books. (00:25:00) Renuka Shah So yeah, they, they started in. They got interested into that, starting to cook something and learn how to cook Indian vegetarian stuff. (00:25:11) Brody Yes. I' ; m glad that you brought that up. So, you know, during this time period there, you know, people started to, you know, Americans and, you know, just people in general started to be more interested in cooking different foods from different parts of the world and also different, you know, more healthy approaches to food. You know, what impact did you see of those types of trends on the customers in your store? (00:25:45) Renuka Shah The people they used to go to...there were...when they go online classes, online recipes, they got sometimes printed or something, or they go to some classes? That time I think somebody was running a class, but there was a very small group. But that' ; s how they found out that they can get the ingredients here in this store, so they will come with that list and the recipe. And so I would personally walk with them and then show them, " ; Hey, you would need this for like mustard seeds, for example, this oil, this spice for this, this kind of vegetables are needed in this." ; And so that' ; s how I would show them everything and they will try to make it at home. Yeah. (00:26:31) Brody In your store, did you ever have cooking classes? (00:26:34) Renuka Shah Yes, we did. Yeah. (00:26:35) Brody Yeah, tell me about that. (00:26:38) Renuka Shah Then there was a lady who did this cooking class right in our store. We provided them the area. A little corner, too, for the class and for the week...In the weekend, though. And we announced actually that there will be a cooking class for whoever is interested in learning Indian cooking. So there were other people coming other than Indians, more coming. (00:27:06) Brody What types of things did they cook in that class? (00:27:10) Renuka Shah It was like mainly of vegetables and rice and stuff... (00:27:16) Pramod Shah Biriyani. (00:27:18) Renuka Shah Biryani and vegetables. And then the chapati, the homemade bread, like a tortilla, (00:27:26) Pramod Shah then sprouted... (00:27:30) Renuka Shah Sprout beans. (00:27:31) Pramod Shah Sprout, make mung beans, and sprout these, all this kind of stuff also. (00:27:35) Brody Types of things. And they so in the store, you had enough room for a cooking class, as well as the weekend traffic for shopping. (00:27:45) Renuka Shah Yeah. Yes. (00:27:46) Brody How big was the store? (00:27:48) Renuka Shah Big? I think it was about... (00:27:51) Pramod Shah Three thousand. (00:27:52) Renuka Shah In the very beginning. When we started, it was like 3000 square feet. And then we kept on adding. We kept on adding the store size to like the next door right there. It was another 3000. So 6000 right there in the same spot. And then we moved out in 1996 to the open area in the same shopping center. And it was like about 10000 square feet. (00:28:20) Pramod Shah And between... (00:28:21) Renuka Shah Eight thousand square feet. And then in a couple of years, we got another 8000 very next door. So by the time we had 16000 square feet. (00:28:31) Brody That is a very large grocery store, isn' ; t it? (00:28:34) Renuka Shah Yes. It was. Yeah, it was the biggest one during that time. (00:28:37) Brody The biggest Indian grocery store in the state? (00:28:41) Renuka Shah In the, in US I would say. (00:28:43) Brody In the US? (00:28:44) Renuka Shah With a wide variety of the- it was like a whole departmental store for Indians. (00:28:50) Brody Tell me about the different departments that ultimately, by the time you were at the largest, what were the, the all the departments that you had in that store? (00:28:59) Renuka Shah We had, of course, the groceries. Then we had this British stuff. We had kitchen utensils. (00:29:08) Pramod Shah Fast food. (00:29:09) Renuka Shah We had fast food corner and then we had sweet, candies corner, sweets. We had ayurvedic products, which is a herbal supplements, that was a wide range of products we used to carry. But that also. (00:29:30) Pramod Shah Even soft drink... (00:29:31) Renuka Shah And then soft drinks from India and lots of frozen stuff, ready to eat, or you can cook. Everything was there. (00:29:45) Brody So on a typical weekend at your store, what was the environment like at the peak of the business? What did it feel like to you on a weekend? (00:29:59) Renuka Shah Well, it was like very, very crowded. But at the same time, people who came in the store, they were enjoying more because they used to meet people on the floor right there, so they will start talking to each other and mingle around and still do the shopping and enjoy the food and everything. So it was really a nice thing for them. And so they felt it like home, you know. Even during the festivities, as the festivals comes, they would come to enjoy the festival, it' ; s like to go to the store rather than staying at home. (00:30:33) Brody Tell me about the festivals. What types of things did you involve yourselves in with the store, in terms of festivals? (00:30:42) Renuka Shah Oh, we would display the products and decorate stuff, decorate a little bit in the store also. According to the festival, starting from whichever month. In January, then there' ; s one big festival, then comes later, like in March, there is another festival. So all the Indian festivals, we used to carry all the products for that and then we used to decorate. So it was like a whole new ambiance every time. (00:31:15) Brody Yeah. Did you do that yourself? (00:31:18) Renuka Shah All of us together. Yeah. (00:31:20) Brody So starting in January, what, for example, what festival is in January and what types of products would you have carried for that? (00:31:31) Renuka Shah January. We have, in the middle of January, there' ; s a Kite Festival. Traditionally it' ; s two days 14th and 15th, but here they celebrate it over the weekend or, looking at the weather, you know how? So normally they celebrate in March or so, right? When there' ; s a good weather out there. So we carry those kites, kites and the threads. There' ; s a special thread to fly the kite. So we used to carry all that. (00:32:02) Brody Right. What were, are there some other examples of other festivals that you had big, you know, big events for? (00:32:11) Renuka Shah Holi. (00:32:12) Pramod Shah Festival or when there is a football tournament here. (00:32:19) Renuka Shah Talking about festivals (00:32:20) Pramod Shah University football tournament. (00:32:22) Renuka Shah We' ; re talking about festivals right now. (00:32:26) Pramod Shah University football tournaments also help us so much because when there tournament between Oklahoma and in Dallas, so that is (inaudible) (00:32:38) Brody The Texas- OU weekend? (00:32:39) Pramod Shah Yeah, yeah, yeah. So many people, Indian people, comes to, you know, from Oklahoma also. So they, when going back, they take so much of grocery, for three months, four months. (00:32:53) Brody Well, that' ; s interesting. That is interesting. So other Indian festivals that you... (00:33:03) Renuka Shah Lots of them. Some of the main ones are like in sometime in March. It falls in March. It' ; s called Holi. It' ; s like a festival of colors, I would say. It' ; s like people enjoy using colored sand, you know, and the water and they celebrate that, right? There' ; s a whole story behind that, but that' ; s a Holi. It' ; s called Holi. (00:33:32) Brody And so you would carry the sand? (00:33:35) Renuka Shah All the colors everything. (00:33:36) Pramod Shah All the Holi colors. Yes, yeah. (00:33:39) Brody And then, the what was the biggest event that you would host at the store in terms of festivals? (00:33:47) Renuka Shah Biggest would be the Diwali. (00:33:51) Brody Yes. Tell me about that. (00:33:52) Renuka Shah Oh, that would be like during that time, we used to import fresh sweets from India. Specialty sweets that different regions of the, of India, people from different regions would be liking to eat or something because they would be missing that. So we used to import that and then used import the rangoli, which is again colored sand. (00:34:19) Pramod Shah The other thing is it was in the very beginning. And then after that they change it of, you know, from the flower, you know, it' ; s like (speaks in Gujurati to Renuka Shah) (00:34:35) Renuka Shah (Inaudible) (00:34:36) Pramod Shah (Speaks in Gujurati). (00:34:37) Renuka Shah Yeah. But. (00:34:37) Pramod Shah In the beginning, yes. (00:34:39) Renuka Shah First describe this. (00:34:41) Brody What is the rangoli? (00:34:42) Renuka Shah Rangoli. Rangoli is the....by using the, you make different designs or different artwork using the colored sand. (00:34:53) Brody How big would these be? (00:34:55) Renuka Shah It depends. I mean, people, when they do at home it will be according to what' ; s it, whatever size they want to do. But in our store, when we started this trend was the it was a huge, big- maybe I would say, 30 feet by 20, 15 or so. (00:35:14) Brody That' ; s very big. (00:35:15) Pramod Shah Yeah. It was huge. (00:35:16) Brody How long would it take to set that up? (00:35:20) Renuka Shah The initially, was like unexpectedly, we got actually, not unexpectedly, we had very short time left before the Diwali comes. So it was like a few days left. So we called all the friends. So we worked like two nights, late night until late nights, maybe 15, 20 people together. That' ; s how we could finish it. Otherwise it would have taken longer. (00:35:44) Brody Do you have to be artistic to have the plan? Was there somebody that was sort of in charge of designing it? (00:35:52) Renuka Shah Yes. Initially, we did. Later on when we really kept this trend, doing it every year. We used to have a theme. On which theme we want to do this year. So that part we would decide. And then we had a couple local artist friends. They will say, " ; Yeah, we would. We wouldn' ; t mind coming and helping you guys out." ; So once we decide on the theme, we would tell those friends and out of that. But a couple of them were like, good in drawing and stuff, so they would come out and do the outline. And then we all jointly fill in the colors and everything. (00:36:30) Brody What were some? I' ; m sorry. (00:36:32) Pramod Shah She guide us also- in what color to go here? Like that. So we mix the color and then we tried to do it. And then, start. (00:36:42) Brody What were some examples of themes that you used over the years? (00:36:47) Renuka Shah Like we started with like this Diwali- and then we started the first one, it was, the theme was that the Diwali theme. Like a lady, would go to the temple with the light, light and then all the prayer stuff. The second, from second year, it was different every year we would take...second year it was like Ganesha, which is a very common thing for Indians. Common idol and lord for everybody. So we used that, Ganesha. (00:37:24) Pramod Shah In India. They have a Ganesh Chaturthi. During the Ganesh Chaturthi, they have a big...(speaks Gujurati) (00:37:39) Renuka Shah Yeah, the procession. Yeah, yeah. And then one time, when 9/11 happened, we had the theme like, know, " ; Salute to the Heroes" ; all the heroes- like a firefighter, a dog even, a policeman, and all that. Nurses and doctors. During that time, whoever had, during that time in New York... (00:38:09) Brody and so you depicted that in the.. (00:38:10) Renuka Shah We yeah, the depicted the whole thing. Yeah. (00:38:12) Brody In the rangoli. Yeah, saluting those heroes. Yeah. (00:38:16) Pramod Shah You know, one time, an Indian lady astronaut, when she died... (00:38:22) Renuka Shah And the...yeah....one time we did that, the lady who went, was an astronaut and she died after that. Called...Her name was Kalpana Chawla. So we to had the theme on that- on her, yeah, tribute to her. One time it was a " ; Peace on Earth." ; So we had all the countries' ; people depicted on that and then holding their hands and all that stuff. (00:38:55) Pramod Shah In the attic. (00:38:58) Renuka Shah 911, no. That' ; s what I told her first. (00:39:02) Brody So this is very big and all of these wonderful themes. Did it draw lots of people into the store to see it? (00:39:11) Renuka Shah Lots of them. They were looking forward. Then the habit became to the customers was like, you know what, " ; When are you finishing the rangoli? When can we come? When can we come to see?" ; So it was really excitement for them. Yeah, to come and view that. (00:39:27) Brody Did people bring their families, bring their children? (00:39:30) Renuka Shah The children. And the children would bring their like next door neighbors' ; children, their friends and stuff, no matter they are white Americans or whoever they are or, you know, Asian or whoever they' ; ll all come and see. (00:39:46) Brody That' ; s really that' ; s a nice piece of education that they could get from coming to the store with their friends. That' ; s great. Did you see other aspects of the people who are coming to your store, your customers, what were some other ways that you mentioned that there- it was a hub and people enjoyed coming to the store and being in there. Were there other things that, that you were selling or doing that provided that sort of sense of community or a taste of home for, for those customers? (00:40:23) Renuka Shah Yes. At that time was there was no like, for example, for any information, if somebody is a newcomer in the town or something. So we had people, we, who can...Local people who want, whoever wants to advertise their own thing or their....They need something like any...For example, they require a cook or babysitter or something. They will put their flyers there and if they are looking for an employee or something, there is a help wanted flyers and stuff. Some business people, they will put their business cards. We would allow everybody to put that on that wall. So it was like our network wall, networking wall. So people would come in and get that info from there. Yeah. (00:41:10) Brody Did you have an ATM or phone, phone cards, videos, things like that as well? (00:41:19) Renuka Shah Yes. We didn' ; t have ATM. Though, we had people telling us to keep it. And there were people, businesses who were coming in to keep it, but we didn' ; t keep it. And we had videos and that time was like those VHS videos and Indian film videos. And then we had what else? (00:41:46) Brody The phone cards? (00:41:47) Renuka Shah Phone cards, yes, we did have phone cards. Because in those days to talk to India or internationally, London or wherever, it was like very expensive to call, pick up the landline and call directly will be very expensive. So it was... (00:42:03) Pramod Shah Customers there. They told us about this, they know how to make ice cream and cake and eat it. (Speaks Gujurati to Renuka Shah.) (00:42:16) Renuka Shah Kulfi. And that' ; s that goes into the product spot, you know? Hmm. So, yeah, we had phone cards, prepaid phone cards and the videos. (00:42:26) Brody Yeah. So the phone cards- tell me about... You, you were starting to say that it was expensive to just pick up a phone, call India or call overseas. How did these phone cards work? What was the sort of the business model there for that? (00:42:45) Renuka Shah As far as the phone cards? It would be like starting from different denomination phone cards, $5, $10, you know, and then they had certain, certain minutes that you get out of that $5 phone card, and that' ; s how people would buy and use it. (00:43:04) Brody And it would be much less expensive than just calling from home? (00:43:07) Renuka Shah Less expensive. (00:43:09) Brody And that would allow them to be able to call overseas, and talk to their families. Now back to the videos. So these would be- were they popular films that were currently in India, popular in India? (00:43:24) Renuka Shah Yes, we used to carry the latest popular, latest films and we used to carry all the old time favorite films also. And what else? And the audio? Audio cassettes also. (00:43:41) Brody Oh, really? (00:43:43) Renuka Shah Yes, it' ; s a... (00:43:44) Brody Popular music. And from a customer perspective, so what did that feel like for a customer? If they wanted to see a certain movie, they would come to the store? And what would what would a customer do to be able to access it? (00:43:58) Renuka Shah We had displayed it in the racks on the wall and like alphabetically, and then they would come out and sometimes they would say, oh, and they will name the latest movie or something. If they are looking for that. And mostly, we get, we used to get those also. So we would pick out, take out, and give it to them. And it was like all manual system to rent out. So we would take down their name and number and everything. And then there was a certain set rate how they would rent. (00:44:32) Brody Depending on the popularity of the movie. (00:44:35) Renuka Shah Yes. Yes. Yeah. (00:44:37) Brody The price would be different. And so again, was this like in a computer or, you know, did you keep track of it in a... (00:44:45) Renuka Shah In a notebook. All manual. (00:44:48) Brody So and it did it work out pretty well? Was that a good system? (00:44:53) Renuka Shah It worked out really well because everybody' ; s honest. It' ; s just hardly you lose any movie. Yeah. So. (00:45:01) Brody That' ; s great. So in the larger sort of growth of the Indian American community in Dallas, what role did your store play and what interactions did you all have with sort of the, you know, from the time that you got here to, you know, when the store closed, we saw a huge growth in this area in the Indian community. What were your points of interaction? (00:45:31) Renuka Shah At that time? Actually, in front of our eyes, actually, the different associations started, actually their own association. For example, India Association. That was there, but in a very, very small scale. And then so it was a big thing for them also, to get to know people and get them involved in the Indian, India Association. Then different religious organizations started. Separate, depending on their own religion. And so they grew, they started. They found a lot of things from us. Right? Lot of information from us. (00:46:16) Brody So did you play a role in connecting people with each other? (00:46:22) Renuka Shah Yes. (00:46:24) Brody How so? (00:46:24) Renuka Shah In different aspects, different, different, ways, right? In connecting people. (00:46:33) Pramod Shah (Speaks Gujurati to Renuka Shah) (00:46:41) Renuka Shah Connecting people- meaning like different- (00:46:44) Brody I guess it sounds like- because your store was so big and it was the place where people came together. And, you know, like you mentioned, the networking wall and things like that. I was wondering if, as these associations are forming, sometimes maybe you knew somebody was doing something that somebody else might be interested in. I wondered if you connected those types of people with each other. (00:47:11) Renuka Shah Oh yes. As far as the information? It was the whole information place for people at Taj Mahal. Yeah, even newcomers or this networking. Somebody comes in ask, " ; Hey, who can I get the insurance from?" ; We would give them the names of people who are...Who has started that business or something. And so they were like, yeah, local networking. (00:47:40) Brody And yes. And so the India Association became quite large in this area. And tell me about your observations of that and your experience of the India Association. (00:47:52) Renuka Shah Observations. They even, they even opened an office, right at Spring Valley, very, very close to us. And they started getting more and more membership and they did different activities where we supported a lot also. As well as by physically helping with our staff or something or by the display of certain items if they want to borrow some things, if they need any physical help from us or any other way, we were helping them. (00:48:28) Brody For their different events? (00:48:29) Renuka Shah Even in different events like fundraising or something. Anything happens, they would, we would tell them to come out and put a box there so that we can raise the funds at our, in our premises also. Yeah. (00:48:44) Brody For example, what types of things would their fundraising be for? (00:48:49) Renuka Shah Oh, in it would be any, I would say calamities like within US, like 9/11, for example. And there was a later, there was one big earthquake in India. (00:49:04) Pramod Shah (Inaudible) and West Bengal side (00:49:08) Renuka Shah West Bengal. (00:49:09) Pramod Shah Yeah. (Inaudible). (00:49:11) Renuka Shah Yeah. So we used to put the box there and collect the funds and India Association people would take care of that. (00:49:22) Brody Yeah, that' ; s great. Speaking of 9/11, I know some people have mentioned and it' ; s been documented that there was, in the wake of 9/11, you know, some racism directed at people of color, particularly people from, you know, the Middle East or even India. Did you have any experiences like that? (00:49:48) Renuka Shah No, not really. No. We didn' ; t have any discrimination or hate crime or anything like that. (00:49:54) Brody No, that' ; s good. That' ; s fortunate. It sounds like the, what you' ; re saying is that your store was a really central to the connections between Indian Americans and people, you know, who were settled here from India or even England. What- did you have any issues with sort of connecting with different communities? (00:50:30) Renuka Shah Connecting with different communities...Only the- nothing except the language barrier, probably. (00:50:39) Brody Right. (00:50:44) Renuka Shah Different communities of India? Any communities. Yeah, we didn' ; t have any specific connecting... (00:50:55) Pramod Shah Mexico only. They were working for us. (00:50:57) Renuka Shah Mexican people. (00:51:01) Pramod Shah And sometimes, you know, there' ; s an extra food, yes, and Mexican people has not taken their break, lunch. We offer this. " ; OK, yeah, yeah, sure." ; But it' ; s not much. Not really. (00:51:15) Brody That' ; s interesting. So. And yeah, speaking of the staff, right? Were you primarily staffed by Indian people? (00:51:26) Renuka Shah Indians. Definitely. Because they have to know the products also, right? (00:51:30) Brody Oh, excuse me. (00:51:33) Renuka Shah Yes, so use Indian people. And then we also had some people in the warehouse, but they not necessarily have to have knowledge of every single thing? But some hard work or something, then we can have anybody, you know? (00:51:51) Brody And where was the warehouse? (00:51:53) Renuka Shah It was also in Richardson around the Texas Instruments. Around that area? Yeah. (00:52:04) Brody So you mentioned the India Association and they' ; re there events and things like that. I know also that you all were involved with the Carrom Association. Tell me about your background with carrom, the game and tell me what carrom is. (00:52:21) Renuka Shah Excuse me. Carrom is like a table game, and it' ; s played by either two players or four players. And it' ; s like using, it' ; s pretty much like using the angles and stuff like, like a pool table, but this is like a family game. Very interesting. And I used to play in India where I used to work- in a bank- for a very short, short time, like a halftime, you know, lunchtime and on. But then I guess I was playing good or whatever it was, somebody noticed and they pulled me in for the tournaments, and that' ; s how I ended up playing the national tournaments in India. And after we came back and came to here in US, it was a whole long pause because we didn' ; t have time to think about even other stuff. So we were in business, and while we were in business, we were carrying carrom boards also to sell. And later we found out that there was an association here also- US Carrom Association. So they even told us about the tournament to come over and represent. So that' ; s how we started really actively, we took part in everything, and we were helping wholeheartedly everything with the supplies, including the supplies and the physical help to US Carrom Association. (00:54:01) Brody So did you host a tournament? (00:54:03) Renuka Shah Oh yes. In Dallas, we hosted about three times national tournaments. Yeah. (00:54:10) Pramod Shah And two, two times. (00:54:13) Renuka Shah Out of that, out of the three times, I think it was one or two times, World Cup. So other country people, players used to come also. (00:54:23) Brody Wow. So an international tournament here in Dallas that you helped to host? (00:54:28) Renuka Shah Yes. (00:54:29) Brody What? What did that entail? Hosting the tournament? What did you need to do? (00:54:32) Renuka Shah Oh, it' ; s a lot of work, a lot and a lot of work. It was, besides the supplies, it' ; s like you have to rent a place where you can have the space to display all those boards. That' ; s required depending on the entries . (00:54:52) Pramod Shah And everybody, stayed. (00:54:53) Renuka Shah Everybody stays in that motel. So for two to three days. And so it was a big thing. And then you have to think about breakfast, lunch, dinner during that tournament, those tournament days. And a lot of work, a lot of, lot of work. (00:55:12) Brody And. You ended up having prizes and so on? (00:55:20) Pramod Shah US Carrom Association. (00:55:22) Brody They took care of that. (00:55:23) Pramod Shah Because they take that. And they take some money, actually. (00:55:28) Renuka Shah Yeah, whoever comes to play, they have to have some entry fees and to pay some entry fees to US Carrom Association so that- with that money- US Carrom Association used to buy the trophies. (00:55:44) Brody And I understand also that you had an interaction with the Guinness Organization as well. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? (00:55:56) Renuka Shah Yes. Yeah, there were, there was a guy who, a player. I would not say " ; guy," ; an elderly person, player, very good player. All time. He had an ambition to do this: set the record of carrom in the Guinness book. (00:56:15) Pramod Shah (Inaudible) (00:56:18) Renuka Shah Everybody can see that. So he found us as the best people who can really organize this kind of, at this level. It' ; s a lot of work for, to set that Guinness Book Record. So he found us, and he said, " ; Only you can do. And that, also, you have to do in Dallas. Nobody else will do here in north or something." ; So we said, " ; OK, we can try." ; And then they applied for the, this event and we got the whole, big bible of guidelines and stuff. So it was a big, big job to do that. But any smallest mistake would not have approved it. So we had to do everything really perfect and thank God we could do it. (00:57:09) Pramod Shah And according to Guinness Book of World Records, each and every seconds has to be recorded (00:57:16) Renuka Shah Video recorded. Every second of it. (00:57:20) Brody How long did it last? (00:57:21) Renuka Shah This lasted for about 33 hours. (00:57:27) Brody So you recorded the entire thing? (00:57:28) Renuka Shah The entire event. Yes. (00:57:30) Pramod Shah And as for their law, there are so many things that there are... Maybe some photographs also then some pictures of, you know. What was that? (Speaks Gujurati) Oh my God. (00:57:50) Renuka Shah Gujurati. (00:57:51) Pramod Shah So what our people has... (00:57:54) Renuka Shah There has to be- there were the guidelines was like there has to be the witnesses all the time. There has to be a nurse all the time. There has to be a doctor all the time there. And there has to be an audience all the time. Even overnight. So we had to manage all that. And then when the audience is there, we had to sell some, some snacks or some refreshments. So everything I mean together was a big, big project. (00:58:22) Brody And you organized this? (00:58:23) Renuka Shah Organized? Yes. (00:58:25) Brody So there were the- record is four people for thirty three hours? (00:58:31) Renuka Shah Thirty two hours and seventy- and forty five minutes. Thirty two hours and 45 minutes, I think. (00:58:37) Brody How did you decide on the four people? (00:58:41) Renuka Shah The definitely the person who really had and... (00:58:46) Pramod Shah Who started this. (00:58:47) Renuka Shah Who wanted to do this and him and him (Gestures to Pramod Shah), and then they were supposed to pick two more players. So there was another person from Dallas and then, that we knew as a player, because we used to go for the tournaments together. And there was the other person from Ohio who initiated this, thought about this thing. He had another friend there up in north, so he picked him. So that' ; s how four people... (00:59:15) Brody The four people. And you were successful in getting the record. (00:59:19) Renuka Shah Very successful. Yeah. (00:59:21) Brody Well, that' ; s wonderful. Congratulations on that. (00:59:24) Renuka Shah Thank you. (00:59:26) Brody Earlier, we were talking about the different festivals and things like that, and you alluded to religion. What you know again, India is a country that has, you know, several religions. How, in, in running your store, did you sort of, what role did religion play in either the products that you carried or didn' ; t carry? (00:59:56) Renuka Shah People would... Slowly, slowly we started knowing and learning by either customers telling us, or we would research, we used and then find out, hey, Andhra people, certain religion people uses this during their, this festival. So then we would make sure that we have those products for them ready here in the store during that time. And... (01:00:26) Pramod Shah What, what like Kerala, there, some. Whatever the things they needed, they literally come, they say us how to get it and everything. And we used to get it and, give it to them. (01:00:42) Renuka Shah Yeah. And then we used to carry some books also in their own languages for the religious ceremonies and stuff, you know, religion stuff. Yeah. Their festivals and stuff. Traditionally, the South Indians and of course, now everybody, all in India, they are more into like dancing and stuff, Indian dances, so they need those ghungroo, those you know, in the ankle. (01:01:16) Brody Bells. (01:01:17) Renuka Shah The bells and stuff, so we used to carry everything for them. (01:01:20) Brody That' ; s pretty specialized... (01:01:22) Renuka Shah Specialized things. (01:01:23) Brody Things for dancers. Were there other specialized areas that you carried? You ended up carrying things, for example? (01:01:35) Renuka Shah We carried even those special type of ornaments they wear during those for those dances. We used to carry that- whole, complete sets of it and we were renting them out also for them, so they don' ; t have to buy the whole thing just for one event. So that and then we had some artificial jewelry all the time. And then bangles. (01:02:01) Pramod Shah (Speaking Gujurati to Renukah Shah) (01:02:05) Renuka Shah Arangetram. That' ; s why I said those. (01:02:09) Pramod Shah (Speaking Gujurati to Renuka Shah) (01:02:10) Renuka Shah (Inaudible) (01:02:13) Brody What about for weddings? Was there, were there special things that you carried that were used for weddings? (01:02:20) Renuka Shah For weddings, also, we were carrying some of the stuff that' ; s required for their ceremonies, like different types of trays and boxes and stuff and the decorative stuff, especially. And the garlands with artificial flowers, of course. And yeah, yeah. So lots of stuff. (01:02:41) Brody Yeah, there' ; s a lot of special needs for each of these festivals or ceremonies or rituals. So it sounds like you mentioned books earlier. What types of books, are you talking about? Were they like things for children or? (01:03:02) Renuka Shah Yes, for everybody, actually. For children, we had those popular books from India that there would be. And it was all in English. So that' ; s good. And the...We had cooking books. We had religious books. We had, for example, yoga books. Language learning books. (01:03:29) Brody For English or for? (01:03:32) Renuka Shah Language learning, meaning the kids born in US or abroad, out of India, they would know only English. So they would not know their own language, right? Their own region mother language. So this is English to their language. (01:03:50) Brody So they could, while living in America, learn the language of their parents. (01:03:55) Renuka Shah Yes. (01:03:56) Renuka Shah And the parents could communicate that to them as well. That' ; s really interesting. When you look back at your experience for all those years running the store and being sort of the hub for Indian, the Indian community in, in really North Texas, what, what are some of your key reflections or things that you would want somebody to know about your experience? You know, far into the future. (01:04:34) Pramod Shah Kids up to 6, 7 years, they do, and they do that when they go to when they start going to school, high school, they are American. (01:04:47) Renuka Shah And the question...(Inaudible) the question. And would you say the question? (01:04:52) Brody Of course, of course. Just, you know, for a very long time, your store was the, you know, the largest store in the area for Indian supplies and Indian culture. When you look back at that experience and everything that you, you know that you did and that you learned, what are some key lessons or points that you would want people to know about your experience? (01:05:22) Renuka Shah Key lessons and points. Once, but then, once we are out from the business, you know, the connection, the connection is not there, so it' ; s, it' ; s only actually the other way around, right, now that the customers, when they see us, they come out and they will pinpoint our qualities and they were like, " ; We are missing because of this, right?" ; (01:05:48) Brody What kind of things do they miss? (01:05:50) Renuka Shah And they are missing definitely us because it was always like a personal service and it was like a family or a home for them. Our place was like a, they feel like their own place. And so, and the variety, quality, cleanliness, and the service. (01:06:10) Pramod Shah They say everything. They' ; re still not getting anywhere all the stuff, so they when they meet, Oh my God, say " ; Why' ; d you sell it, why' ; d you close?" ; (01:06:22) Brody So, that makes me wonder. So, today there are a lot of a variety of Indian grocery stores and all sorts of places where you can get, you know, Indian food, Indian supplies. What are some of the key differences between what' ; s available today and what you were doing when you were the only ones in town? (01:06:47) Renuka Shah Nowadays, as far as the variety-wise or the product-wise, mostly, everything' ; s available because they started getting everything after us. (01:06:57) Pramod Shah Customers. They are not getting anything. So they must be and talking also. We used to get it from here and there. (01:07:05) Renuka Shah So they get all the stuff. But they' ; re still missing our probably the mainly the quality and the service. Service, the personalized service. (01:07:17) Brody Right? Nowadays, do people who you know, who live here in Dallas and want various supplies, do they are they more likely to, in your view, go into a store or order simply online? Is it possible to do that? (01:07:36) Renuka Shah It' ; s not possible everywhere. All the stores are not doing it, especially the " ; mom and pop" ; stores. They would not be able to afford it. But here in Dallas, at least, there are big, big stores, so most of them have that kind of online ordering services and stuff. Yeah, yeah. (01:07:54) Brody Or even outside of Dallas, right? Like, would it be possible today to get a lot of the, you know, the very specialty things from, you know, straight from India even? (01:08:05) Renuka Shah Yes, that' ; s true. (01:08:06) Brody Yeah. (01:08:08) Pramod Shah Even saris also. Also available online. (01:08:10) Renuka Shah Everybody buys the dresses and stuff. (01:08:12) Pramod Shah Now. Because this big company, they are very big in India also now. So they know everything now, that company. So they also start that thing? Sari and lots of things are available. (01:08:29) Brody Yeah, it' ; s a different... (01:08:31) Pramod Shah People used to go to India to get the saris and all this stuff for marriage. (01:08:37) Renuka Shah Now, they don' ; t for shopping, they do online. (01:08:40) Brody You can do that here. So are there any other questions or any other points that I haven' ; t asked you about today that we should talk about? (01:08:56) Renuka Shah Not really. Pretty much. (01:08:59) Pramod Shah Yeah. (01:09:00) Renuka Shah Whatever we could recall. (01:09:02) Brody I really appreciate your time and your participation in this project. Really interesting stories and important stories as well. So I really appreciate you. Thank you so much. (01:09:15) Renuka Shah Thank you for having us. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Renuka Shah, December 9, 2021
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2021oh002_di_003
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Indian
Grocers, Asian American
Asian American grocers
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2021-12-09
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Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Pramod Shah
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5.4 Interview with Pramod Shah, December 6, 2021 2021oh002_di_002 01:48:35 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Indian Asian American grocers Pramod Shah Betsy Brody wav oh-audio-dig-shah_pramod_20211206.wav 1:|44(8)|54(6)|65(11)|78(13)|105(12)|113(1)|123(7)|137(2)|166(5)|183(12)|254(4)|292(2)|322(6)|372(5)|404(1)|425(1)|435(1)|480(7)|565(6)|589(13)|718(3)|778(7)|797(7)|827(10)|839(3)|873(14)|955(6)|1003(1)|1022(6)|1064(1)|1100(1)|1135(5)|1153(8)|1167(8)|1193(7)|1242(1)|1292(2)|1309(1)|1334(10)|1365(4)|1378(8)|1397(10)|1421(13)|1483(8)|1521(15)|1567(2)|1653(15)|1816(3)|1851(4)|1883(4)|1894(1)|1919(11)|1934(7)|1949(7)|1971(4)|1998(5)|2011(5)|2047(8)|2066(1)|2119(1) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/164337 Aviary audio 0 Introduction Asian American grocers ; Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Indian cooking ; Texas--History 31 Coming to Texas from India/ Working at an Indian grocery store in Houston Asian grocery ; Houston ; India ; Indian grocery store ; Texas 496 Coming to Dallas to open a new Indian grocery store Asian grocery store ; Dallas ; Houston ; Indian grocery store ; Richardson ; Taj Mahal Imports 32.95389154793355, -96.73798630392501 17 861 Early advertising and outreach to Indians using the White Pages advertising ; gradn opening ; marketing ; White Pages 998 Initally stocking Taj Mahal Imports beans ; Houston ; products ; spices ; Taj Mahal Imports ; wholeslers 1165 Advertising and building relationships with customers advertising ; customers ; expansion ; flyers ; growth ; mailing list ; marketing ; relationships 1345 Importing directly from India/ Demand from customers for particular products exporters ; imports ; India ; London ; products ; rice ; wholesalers 1897 Responding to demand for British products British ; British Embassy ; Cadbury ; Dallas ; embassy ; Indians ; London ; motels 2073 Impact of Y2K hiring on customer base at Taj Mahal Imports bridge ; friendship ; friendships ; Indians ; vegetables ; Y2K 2161 Stocking fresh vegetables at Taj Mahal Imports bridge ; local produce ; mango ; mangoes ; vegetables 2290 Taj Mahal Imports as a community hub/ Formation of India Association associations ; bridge ; celebrations ; community ; Dallas ; festivals ; hub ; India Association ; Indian community ; information ; kite festival 2484 Involvement with activities of Indian groups in Dallas associations ; festivals ; Holi ; Krishna ; products ; religion ; statues ; Taj Mahal Imports ; temples 2698 Selling phone cards at Taj Mahal Imports hub ; phone cards 2786 Selling kitchen utensils for Indian cooking at Taj Mahal Imports cooking ; kitchen utensils ; rice ; tea 2930 Renting out Indian movies at Taj Mahal Imports India ; Mahabharat and Ramayan ; movie rental ; movies ; rental ; television ; VCR ; VHS ; videos 3309 Community events associations ; India Association 3447 Expansion and addition of Chaat House fast food corner Asian grocery ; expand ; expansion ; fast food ; growth ; Indian grocery store 3645 Creating rangoli display in the store at Diwali art ; bridge ; celebrations ; Dallas Morning News ; Diwali ; expansion ; growth ; holidays ; hub ; newspapers ; rangoli 4015 Taj Mahal Imports as an anchor for Indian shopping center anchor ; bangles ; Indian products ; jewelry ; luggage ; sari 4140 Chaat food items sold at Taj Mahal Imports/ Increase in American customers bridge ; chaat ; coconut ; cooking classes ; culture ; educate ; education ; fast food ; juice ; labor ; snacks ; sugarcane 4556 Selling ayurvedic products/herbal supplements 4706 Language books for American born kids to learn Indian languages educate ; education ; English ; language 4796 Carrying cricket equipment cricket ; games 4944 Involvement with the Dallas Carrom Association, Cowboy Carrom Association, and carrom ; Cowboy Carrom Association ; Dallas Carrom Association 5395 Reflections on running Tak Mahal Imports connect ; connections ; fundraising ; India ; India Association ; Indian community ; relationship 6187 Keeping a list of product names in many different Indian languages India ; language ; products 6296 Sweets and celebrations at Taj Mahal Imports celebrations ; dessert ; desserts ; hub ; India ; parties ; products ; sweets ; weddings (00:00:00) BRODY This is Betsy Brody. Today is December 6, 2021. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Pramod Shah. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of Dallas." ; Hello, Mr. Shah. Welcome and thank you for sitting for this interview. Why don' ; t we start? Tell me where and when you were born. (00:00:34) PRAMOD SHAH I born in India on October 20, 1949. I came to USA, May 1st, 1981. (00:00:49) BRODY What brought you to Texas? (00:00:53) PRAMOD SHAH Started with Houston, Texas. And I was working in an Indian grocery store in Houston, Texas. (00:01:02) BRODY What was the name of that store? (00:01:04) PRAMOD SHAH Oh. (00:01:05) RENUKA SHAH (Inaudible) (00:01:15) PRAMOD SHAH Lex Enterprise, okay, (00:01:19) BRODY So you were there in Houston at Lex Enterprise for how long? (00:01:23) PRAMOD SHAH About one and a half year. (00:01:26) BRODY Had you done grocery store business before anywhere else? In India? (00:01:33) PRAMOD SHAH Ah no. No, no. (00:01:34) BRODY What did you do in India? What was your area? (00:01:36) PRAMOD SHAH In India, I was working with some, you know, company in accounts department. (00:01:44) BRODY So back to Houston, you were in Houston and you were working there and then what? How did you end up in Dallas? Tell me about your story. (00:01:51) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. When I was working in Houston, I learned a lot from there. And the owner of that shop, was a brother of my very good friend in India. We used to... We were in admission at University of Baroda and the owner of the Lex Enterprise, his younger brother was in there. We were in the same class and actually so many times I used to teach him- that brother- about the accounts, all that stuff. So he met me in India...the, Mr. Patel, the owner of this Lex Enterprise. He met me in India in 14th January? And that is, you know, in Gujarat, it is a kite festival. (00:02:54) BRODY The kite festival. (00:02:56) PRAMOD SHAH So, usually in the kite festival, I usually go in his house. We didn' ; t know we were Mr. Patel. We didn' ; t know. But his younger brother? Yeah. So we met at the terrace of his house. (00:03:16) BRODY In India. (00:03:17) PRAMOD SHAH In India. And I don' ; t know. Somehow he like my nature. He was there. He usually comes every year the for the kite festival also. So he liked me. So the...he must have talked to his father and brother, younger brother about me. They must have told about me, whatever you know. I...I was...The way I was a good friend. And so he, so very next day there are two days for the kite festival, fourteenth and fifteenth of January. So he told me- my, his, his brother, the younger brother, he was knowing that I' ; m getting, after a few, few weeks, I have an appointment for the U.S.A. Yeah, my sister in law had filed for us. (00:04:19) BRODY Oh, OK, so you were planning on coming to the United States anyway? (00:04:23) PRAMOD SHAH Anyway, yeah. So, at that time, he told, so that talk, they have done at night at the fourteenth night. And next day, he says " ; OK. Hey, Pramod, I know that you are coming to the United States." ; I say, " ; Yeah. How come you know that?" ; The guy-" ; Yeah, I know what day you have an interview with the American Embassy? And so yes. So, what are you going to do?" ; I say, " ; Well, I' ; m a Commerce graduate, so maybe I will have some job." ; And he says " ; OK. So you know what? Go straight to Houston." ; Well, I say " ; No, I-we- have to go to New York first because my brother in law has filed for us, so we have to go there." ; So, " ; OK, give me your brother in law' ; s name, number. I will talk to him about your job." ; So he must' ; ve done the same, you know, within two or three days, he had done that also and then he says," ; OK, yeah, yeah, you can. You can go there, and stay there for a two weeks or whatever you like, and then come to Houston." ; (00:05:34) BRODY What did he have in mind for you? (00:05:37) PRAMOD SHAH He just he was offering the job. (00:05:41) BRODY At the Lex Enterprises? (00:05:44) PRAMOD SHAH Indian grocery store in Houston. OK, but when he went there in the in the store, my God, he was not only the Indian grocery only, but there was lots of luggage, and there radio clocks and lots of things besides that, also including TV also. (00:06:07) BRODY So that surprised you that it was more than just a grocery store, more than just food? (00:06:11) PRAMOD SHAH Right? Yes. So, so he gave me a work-only the accounting work in the beginning. But he told me whenever somebody is not here in the store, you come. And so that you can learn everything about the store. And that is what going on since about one and half a year. Yeah. And meanwhile, and meanwhile, one of his friend, he' ; s my owner' ; s friend, he also came to know about me. And he what he came, he says, " ; Pramod, I want to talk to you something. I said, " ; OK, you can talk to me today." ; I had a separate meeting room, also for accounting work, so we went there and he told me about, " ; I am interested in opening a grocery store. Somewhere in Texas. So are you interested?" ; That' ; s what he told me. " ; Well, um. Yeah, I' ; m OK. Yeah. I mean, interested." ; Because what happened is at that time, that store, there were three partners in that store. Mr. Patel plus two other partners, but somehow they were not paying the bills. But, you know, on time in all this thing, and his friend who came to me, he was knowing all these things because that friend had also given a loan to them. So he knows that this is not going to last longer time. So he told me all these things later on. And this is OK...So, became to myself and him. We came to Dallas, driving, to find out the location. During this one in half-year in the Indian grocery store, I came to know lots of people of Dallas. Because at that time, there was no good or accurate Indian grocery store in Dallas. So they have no choice but to come to Houston so many used to come there. (00:08:52) BRODY So you knew there was a demand? (00:08:53) PRAMOD SHAH To know so many people because I I was from Baroda, the name of the city, right? And they were also Barodians. So when they come, they come and say, " ; Hey, we come from Dallas to get the grocery and I have never seen you here before." ; I said, " ; No, I' ; m a new guy here." ; So, " ; OK, where you...You came from where?" ; I said, I was, " ; I came from Baroda." ; " ; Oh, we are also Barodians!" ; So, that' ; s the way I had a lots of telephone numbers also for all this. Yes. When you come to Dallas, OK, come to, you know? So, we can become a friend, just, you know, like that. (00:09:32) BRODY So you came to Dallas and you looked for a location. How did you come? Where was the location that you decided on? (00:09:40) PRAMOD SHAH You know, the gentleman was a very, very clever guy. Very clever. He has studied a lot about the Indian population in Dallas area also, and he has studied a lot. So he kept straight to the Richardson. And we drove around everywhere, you know, to taking the exit of each and every Richardson area exit, like we started with the Spring Valley Road, then Beltline, then Campbell and Arapaho. We were looking for the location for that. (00:10:17) BRODY What were you looking for? (00:10:19) PRAMOD SHAH And we found out there was lots of good population in Richardson for Indian people. (00:10:24) BRODY So you decided on Richardson and what year was this? (00:10:28) PRAMOD SHAH That was 1982, 1982, right? Yeah. For location. Yes, 1980. (00:10:36) BRODY So where was that location? (00:10:38) PRAMOD SHAH That was in the southwest corner of Spring Valley and Beltline. (00:10:46) RENUKA SHAH Beltline. (00:10:47) PRAMOD SHAH Beltline Road. (00:10:52) RENUKA SHAH Our location was Beltline and 75. (00:10:53) PRAMOD SHAH Oh, 75, sorry. (00:10:54) RENUKA SHAH Beltline. (00:10:55) PRAMOD SHAH Southwest corner of Beltline and 75, highway 75. (00:10:59) BRODY Got it. Well, what was Dallas like when you got here? You mentioned that there were- there was a pretty good population of Indians in Richardson. Just kind of paint a picture for me. What was Dallas like when you got here? (00:11:12) PRAMOD SHAH Well, it is, for us, definitely, it' ; s a new city. Yeah. And she was working in Houston. So, yeah, the location we have selected. So and we were in the south west corner and the southeast corner, there was a, and what is the name of that bank? (00:11:43) RENUKA SHAH At that time it was something called... (00:11:44) PRAMOD SHAH There' ; s was a bank on there. And she had an experience of banking work in India. So she wants to get a job there. (00:11:53) BRODY OK, great. (00:11:54) PRAMOD SHAH So then we have an, got an apartment rental. And the location was fixed, so I, next, is my work is now because it is just an open big area. So I had to put the, all the everything, you know, the shelvings- where to put and how to put, and all this thing. And we got all those stuff. (00:12:20) BRODY And tell me, tell me about that. Just the sort of the nuts and bolts of starting a business, you know, the permits and the, you know, the shelving and all the things that you' ; re talking about... Sort of walk me through how, what did you do? What was the process like? (00:12:37) PRAMOD SHAH You to go to the Richardson City office? We got the name also, you know, you have to your registered the name and everything. (00:12:48) BRODY Yeah. So tell me what was the name of the store? (00:12:51) PRAMOD SHAH Taj Mahal Imports. (00:12:55) BRODY How did you decide on that name? (00:12:57) PRAMOD SHAH Because Taj Mahal is, for the Indian, Taj Mahal is a very common... (00:13:02) RENUKA SHAH Known name. (00:13:05) PRAMOD SHAH Known name. So we decided, " ; Taj Mahal Imports." ; (00:13:08) BRODY So you went to City Hall, registered the name " ; Taj Mahal Imports." ; (00:13:13) PRAMOD SHAH Company' ; s name, everything. Legally whatever we have to do? Yes. Then we went to City of Dallas Health Department. (00:13:24) BRODY What, what did you need to do with the Health Department? (00:13:29) PRAMOD SHAH Just to know the app? What are the laws? (00:13:32) BRODY Yes. (00:13:32) PRAMOD SHAH About the- to open the store also. And the how many restrooms you want, how many these want, all those kind of stuff. (00:13:45) BRODY Did you... (00:13:47) PRAMOD SHAH And to get the permit also from them? So they give us in writing... (00:13:51) BRODY The health permit? Did you rent or own that space? (00:13:56) PRAMOD SHAH No. Rent. (00:13:57) BRODY You rented the space and how large was it? (00:14:00) PRAMOD SHAH It was...The first one was about two- 2200 square feet. (00:14:05) BRODY 2200. Were you in the end, were you happy about that location? Was it a good location for drawing the customers? (00:14:15) PRAMOD SHAH I called all those friends who give me the number. They say, " ; Oh my God, Pramod, this is the best!" ; (00:14:23) BRODY Who were these? Who were the customers initially that you that that first came to the store when you were first opening? (00:14:32) PRAMOD SHAH (Speaks to Renuka Shah in Gujurati) (00:14:33) RENUKA SHAH Who were the customers? (00:14:35) PRAMOD SHAH Oh, customers, first customers? No. OK. They. It just started out those friend... (00:14:45) RENUKA SHAH Majority of them were Patels. (00:14:49) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, yeah, yeah. Main customers in the end, because she worked, before we start the store, when I was getting ready for this, to start the store, before that, she had to work. Very good. And calling all the Indian populations, you can say, okay, last name " ; Patel," ; " ; Shah" ; all those, we know the last name of the Indian people. (00:15:16) BRODY So did you go through the phone book? (00:15:19) RENUKA SHAH The White Pages? (00:15:20) PRAMOD SHAH White Pages. I went through all on " ; Subramaniam" ; came from the South. All those kind of...We know that. So, yeah. She called everybody to be able to start the store and Indian grocery store and not like the other small Indian grocery store, which is about 600-700 square foot area. (00:15:43) BRODY Right. This was much bigger. So when you called them, you told them, you' ; re opening this store, it' ; s going to be bigger. It' ; s going to be different. Was there a big grand opening event or anything like that? (00:15:59) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Yeah. Yes. (00:16:01) BRODY What was that like? Tell me what that day was like for you? (00:16:04) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Before that, yeah. I think we didn' ; t put any sale paper or anything, right? (00:16:10) RENUKA SHAH We had a grand opening. (00:16:12) PRAMOD SHAH Oh yeah, we did, too. Then the address also in the same book. Right? So we had the addresses also so grand opening sale with the list of the order items and we send it by mail to everyone. (00:16:29) BRODY So you oh, so you sent a flier with information about your store, the address, the grand opening and some of the items. So what were the items in the first, the first sort of stage? (00:16:43) PRAMOD SHAH Food items, spice items, everything. Beans and sell all of the spices? (00:16:53) BRODY Yeah. So initially before the store opened, you needed to stock the store. And so tell me about how you decided what to order and where you ordered it from and the process of filling that store with things? (00:17:15) PRAMOD SHAH That thing...One and a half year I worked in the Indian grocery store. (00:17:17) RENUKA SHAH In Houston. (00:17:18) PRAMOD SHAH In Houston. So I know everything in, in that store also where I used to work. I knew from where it is coming, who is giving... (00:17:31) RENUKA SHAH Meaning who are the wholesalers. (00:17:34) BRODY Yes, that' ; s right. (00:17:36) RENUKA SHAH But it was like who are the wholesalers in the US? (00:17:39) PRAMOD SHAH He was getting certain items, even from London, he was importing. And a few items directly from India also. (00:17:48) BRODY OK. (00:17:49) PRAMOD SHAH So I had those names also. (00:17:51) BRODY You had those contacts. (00:17:53) PRAMOD SHAH Contacts. (00:17:54) BRODY So how did you estimate how much you needed initially for the store? (00:17:59) PRAMOD SHAH Oh yeah, because we were talking to the friends here, Dallas friends. This is this much population. So according to population, yeah, we have, we fill up the stores. (00:18:14) BRODY What were your biggest sellers? (00:18:16) PRAMOD SHAH Biggest sellers was some spices. Spices, spices, beans. And...lots of soft drinks, kind of, you know, then sweets. Then, oh, my God, twenty-six years, later. (00:18:46) RENUKA SHAH But, gradually we added more departments and more variety, like he was about to say. For grocery from UK were sold. As we occupied more and more space, we started importing, and that' ; s when we added more lines of... (00:19:02) PRAMOD SHAH There was one small store, yeah? Next to us and that was going out of business. So we got that extra space also. (00:19:15) BRODY OK. (00:19:16) PRAMOD SHAH After about eight, nine, ten months of the grand opening after that. (00:19:21) BRODY So you grew that quickly? (00:19:22) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. Yes. (00:19:25) BRODY So the advertising we talked about initially, you advertised the grand opening. What sorts of things, as you know, as the years went on, did you find to be the most effective for advertising? (00:19:40) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, because that advertising helped us so much as is, they told their friends who didn' ; t get this. So everybody started. So I used to ask, " ; OK, you got our sale paper?" ; They say, " ; No, we are not in your list." ; So I started that also... (00:20:00) BRODY So you started a list just on a notebook when customers came in. (00:20:04) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (00:20:05) BRODY That' ; s great. (00:20:06) PRAMOD SHAH And all those work (points to Renuka Shah) (00:20:09) BRODY ...your wife did. Fantastic. And so it sounded like you grew pretty quickly. I mean, eight or nine months. So was, was that growth driven by just popularity or more demand. What made you decide to expand so soon? (00:20:27) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. The reason is we...All other small stores, they hardly have like, hardly have 300-400 items? We have more than 1000 items, so big. So that, we need more space accordingly. So we got it also luckily and done everything and people started. You know, I' ; m, I' ; m very good in nature-wise also talking and, you know, if someone comes through after one week with the product, " ; This is- Pramod, we didn' ; t like this." ; OK, no problem. Don' ; t worry. I just take it throw it in the garbage in front of you." ; And I says, " ; OK, whatever. What else you whatever you like it? You want money? Or do you want to buy?" ; " ; No, no, I want to buy." ; So you...that way, you know, they say " ; Oh my God. That' ; s, that guy. They don' ; t take anything return or anything." ; (00:21:33) BRODY Right? So the customer service and building relationships with your customers, right? So. So tell me more about those types of relationships that you built over the years with customers? Who were most of your customers, Indian- Americans or people who were... (00:21:54) PRAMOD SHAH In the beginning, like the first two or three years, Indians. Indians. " ; Indians" ; means all 24 states' ; people. (00:22:04) BRODY Yes, India is a big country. So how did you handle that? Because the needs... (00:22:09) PRAMOD SHAH You know, everybody started coming to my store so he says, " ; Oh, why don' ; t you get this thing from..." ; You know, the south people says " ; OK. Do you hear, you, you know, we, we have to have a pickle, this brand, this brand" ; and they started giving me all the details. (00:22:25) BRODY So what did you do with that? (00:22:26) PRAMOD SHAH So we started importing directly from India. That after two and a half years of our business, we started importing. But before that we import. We started importing from London. Because all those time, London has a huge population. So __________, yeah. So and there also there are wholesalers. So we got it from them. Then we realized " ; Wait a minute. He' ; s also getting from India and we are going so slowly, slowly." ; Then, after five six years of the business, yeah, I started going to India. (00:23:04) BRODY So... (00:23:05) PRAMOD SHAH To meet all those people. (00:23:06) BRODY So you literally went to India physically and met the wholesalers in India. (00:23:12) PRAMOD SHAH In 1988. (00:23:14) RENUKA SHAH The exporters. (00:23:14) BRODY The exporters to the US. In 1988. So after about six years, you decided to do that. So, yeah, tell me more about that. What, where did you go? Who did you talk to? What did you learn? (00:23:29) PRAMOD SHAH All those, you know, the addresses, we used to get it from the, you know, whatever those things we used to import from London. So, suppose, pickle, so varieties, manufacture, what it is- all those things. So all those- cities. I went there, met them. And told them, to do this, So, and my partner, the guy who you know, he was knowing some people in India who were exporters. Yes. I just know where do this product manufactures? Right? And he knew some people. He says, " ; Pramod, you, don' ; t worry. I know how to get it." ; So that part, he started, and you know, I said, " ; OK, I have given orders to this company." ; Yes, yes. Then to him from there, what he used to do is, he used to call his friend, who is an exporter, OK? This guy, from Hyderabad, " ; You will get this merchandise, this quantity." ; Right? So, from everywhere I ordered, I give the list and everything to the partner. And he used to do all this thing. (00:24:56) BRODY So do you mean that the, for instance, the company that manufactures the pickle in India would get it to the exporter. (00:25:06) PRAMOD SHAH Exporter. (00:25:06) BRODY And then the exporter would send it to you here? OK? Yeah. So you had sort of a clearing house in India to get everything to you here? OK. So from all over India, people were fulfilling orders. (00:25:21) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, a very important point I' ; ve forgotten. And during that, I came to know about lots of laws here. (00:25:28) BRODY Yes, the laws here about that. (00:25:30) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Suppose the pickle. So pickle has, oh, you know, weight and everything. So I came to know during this five, six, several years? The bottle has to have a sticker: name of the product, ingredients, weight, but weight in ounce. You can write. You can write " ; two hundred gram," ; but into bracket, you have to put the ounce also. (00:26:04) BRODY OK. (00:26:05) PRAMOD SHAH And below that, you had to put " ; Product of India." ; So customers should know, all these things. (00:26:14) BRODY So how did you learn about all these laws? (00:26:19) PRAMOD SHAH I have learned all these things in Houston. Because he was also importing, so whatever it was, I was watching, you know, reading all this thinking, " ; Oh my God, this is totally different things." ; (00:26:33) BRODY Yeah, so... (00:26:33) PRAMOD SHAH It is not only kilo. You cannot write...OK, you can write " ; kilo." ; See the- I know there, the rice, basmati rice, used to come in that store in Houston. Basmati rice. Yeah, five kilo. But underneath, he has to write how many pounds and how many ounces also. (00:26:54) BRODY So who does that, the extra level? (00:26:57) PRAMOD SHAH The manufacturer. (00:26:57) BRODY The manufacturer. (00:26:58) PRAMOD SHAH Indian manufacturer. (00:26:59) BRODY OK. So you have to designate and tell them what you need in terms of- to comply with the law. (00:27:06) PRAMOD SHAH Those manufacturers who are already exporting this thing to all over in Europe. And yeah, they also know what we have to, what they have to write. (00:27:18) BRODY Right. So you can comply with the law. (00:27:19) PRAMOD SHAH But there are some new I have to teach them. (00:27:24) BRODY OK, that' ; s really interesting and not something that you want that, you would know about naturally, right? You had to learn as you as you go. So those regulations and laws? OK, so back to the process of getting these products to your store and onto your shelves. You mentioned that you' ; re, you physically went to India and set up relationships with the different manufacturers of things like pickle and with the spices as well. (00:28:01) PRAMOD SHAH Yes, nuts, spices, there are new...What are the new items coming out in India? (00:28:07) BRODY Oh, right, because you wanted to be able to have the latest things in the store. (00:28:12) PRAMOD SHAH Because India was also progressing at that time. So there are lots of good new items. (00:28:18) BRODY For example, what types of new items were there in the late 80s that were coming out? (00:28:23) PRAMOD SHAH New lots of new varieties of mixes, spice powder, mixing sauce, mixture like garam masala. So garam masala has a lot of varieties or this kind of stuff with, you know, new in India also. So all the stuff we started getting. (00:28:43) BRODY So your customers must have been happy because they were getting the same new items from India here, right here in Texas. (00:28:52) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Mainly the varieties of pickles. Baedecker pickles. These pickles. So many pickles. Yeah. Different, different state has a different different. (00:29:04) BRODY So, yeah, tell me about the people who came to your store. Were coming. You know, they' ; re all people from India who are settled here in Texas for a long time or a short time. But they' ; re here, but they' ; re not necessarily all from the same part of India. So when they would come to your Indian grocery store, were there times that people asked for things that-from their state- that you tried to get into the store? (00:29:35) PRAMOD SHAH And that thing started after like my four, five, six years of importing. After that, they do started, " ; Hey, you have this thing? Why don' ; t you have this?" ; (00:29:46) BRODY Right. So, for example, what types of things were people asking for? (00:29:51) PRAMOD SHAH They started giving me the sample? (00:29:52) BRODY Oh, really? Like of... (00:29:54) PRAMOD SHAH " ; Look, we went to India and we got this thing." ; So that sample has all the, you know, name, in manufacturer' ; s name. (00:30:03) BRODY So and then you would try to get it. (00:30:04) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (00:30:05) BRODY So. How did you? You' ; re just the, you' ; re here in Texas, and the time zone is different than India. This is before the internet. You know, really before, you know, personal computers were being used in stores... (00:30:22) PRAMOD SHAH Computer, nothing. (00:30:23) BRODY So? So how did you do it? How did you? (00:30:25) PRAMOD SHAH Call. Every day, night? (00:30:26) BRODY Every night you got on the phone? (00:30:28) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, I got to sleep around 1:30 to 2:00 in the morning. Because India' ; s all the offices starts at 11:00. (00:30:40) BRODY Right, so 11:00 o' ; clock. (00:30:41) PRAMOD SHAH Midnight. I go to sleep at night, right and do this job on phone, phone, phone everywhere. (00:30:49) BRODY And. So you had things from every state in India on your store shelves. Yes. And so your customers, you know, what was their reaction to seeing these items from their home state? (00:31:06) PRAMOD SHAH Those customers...is calling, seeing, talking to all their friends also. (00:31:13) BRODY Yeah. So the word of mouth was good. (00:31:15) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (00:31:17) BRODY So obviously you had the majority of your customers, as you said, were people who were from India who were here for work. (00:31:26) PRAMOD SHAH Very high number. Lots. (00:31:26) BRODY Yes, lots of Indian folks. Earlier, you mentioned also... (00:31:31) PRAMOD SHAH I go every year to India because of that... (00:31:33) BRODY Because of that to learn more about the different products and so on. Earlier, you mentioned that there were British products as well. Tell me about that. What types of things and why did you stock them? (00:31:45) PRAMOD SHAH What happened in that also...After how many years, I don' ; t know from the store starts, the dollar value, in early 90s, or maybe, it has little bit gone down compared to the British pound. So lots of Gujurati-Indian people living in London, they converted their money and bought the motels here. (00:32:23) BRODY OK, motels, yeah. (00:32:26) PRAMOD SHAH Right. Those people they came here on. Right. And those people, they were, like their kids and all those they were using the different kind of candies there any, which is, you know, it wasn' ; t available here and there are so many items they were used to in London, so they totally gave the list of everything. So, we started from this same supplier that used to give us the groceries and all the other stuff. So that is the reason we started that thing. (00:33:04) BRODY So you started seeing the, stocking the British products because these families were coming from London and the children were accustomed to this? (00:33:15) PRAMOD SHAH They helped me so much the other way? What is that other way? I didn' ; t know that in Dallas, there is a British Embassy. And those people, they have to go to the British Embassy when they come here. And you know that. So went there, and they told the ambassador that all the British stuff is available here. (00:33:38) BRODY Really. So you reached a whole different population just that way. So then did you start seeing British... (00:33:44) PRAMOD SHAH When new people come, from London to Dallas, they have to go to the Embassy. So they gave literally this " ; Whenever you want, go to this Taj Mahal Imports." ; Like that. (00:33:58) BRODY To get your Cadburys. What were the British products that were most popular? (00:34:05) PRAMOD SHAH Candies. (00:34:05) BRODY The candies? (00:34:06) PRAMOD SHAH Cookies. (00:34:07) RENUKA SHAH Yes. Cookies and baked beans. (00:34:09) PRAMOD SHAH Baked beans. (00:34:09) RENUKA SHAH All the jams and jellies. (00:34:13) PRAMOD SHAH Eno. Eno. (00:34:13) BRODY I don' ; t know that one. What is that? (00:34:16) RENUKA SHAH It is some baking ingredient? (00:34:20) BRODY OK. OK, yeah. (00:34:23) RENUKA SHAH Softening stuff. (00:34:25) BRODY So you had a connection with a whole different population that had nothing really to do with India at that point. So what about other people in Dallas, other communities? Did you have very many? (00:34:40) PRAMOD SHAH It started. That thing started from year 2000. (00:34:44) BRODY What happened in the year 2000? (00:34:46) PRAMOD SHAH Because lots of people from India came here for Y2K problem. So solving that thing. They were working, very big, all of these Texas Instruments and kind of all those things, and there already, Americans are working there. (00:35:03) BRODY Mm-Hmm. (00:35:03) PRAMOD SHAH So these became friends. (00:35:07) BRODY The Indians and the people who are already here in Texas became friends (00:35:11) PRAMOD SHAH Even sometimes, they bring them... (00:35:12) BRODY To the store. (00:35:13) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. " ; You know what? You tasted one pickle. I bought it from here. So let' ; s go." ; So, that' ; s where it started. (00:35:22) BRODY So you started seeing more. (00:35:25) RENUKA SHAH Americans? Yes. Yes, local population. (00:35:28) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (00:35:29) BRODY So that' ; s. (00:35:30) PRAMOD SHAH They started...They came and started even buying the betel nuts? Karela. (00:35:39) BRODY Oh, the bitter melon, (00:35:41) PRAMOD SHAH Bitter melon. Bitter melon. (00:35:42) BRODY That was popular. (00:35:43) PRAMOD SHAH Right? Because this is it. And if you have more sugar and all these things, you must eat that thing. That is what the Indian must have told them. So even the vegetables, they come to buy vegetables also. (00:36:00) BRODY And where did you, how did you stock the vegetables? The fresh vegetables? (00:36:05) PRAMOD SHAH I had a very nice refrigerated vegetable display case. (00:36:12) BRODY Where did you? Who was your supplier? How did you find suppliers for those? (00:36:18) PRAMOD SHAH Local. Yeah. Yeah. (00:36:18) BRODY Even for things like bitter melon. And what were the (00:36:23) PRAMOD SHAH Lots of vegetables? (00:36:24) BRODY Yeah. What were the... (00:36:26) PRAMOD SHAH And a lot, they are big. Lots of Chinese, they have our vegetables source in the downtown Dallas. (00:36:34) BRODY OK, so you were able to stock it. (00:36:36) PRAMOD SHAH We were getting from there also and slowly, slowly, in Florida, there are lots of Indian, Gujarati Indian people. The they also started and yeah, when you were growing these vegetables and all those. So they used to send us, by air, also. (00:36:56) BRODY They would. OK, so tell me about the fruits and vegetables that were the ones that you tried to keep in stock. What were the most popular fruits and vegetables? (00:37:09) PRAMOD SHAH Mainly, mostly vegetables all...You know, the name is very different which you, maybe. Mostly each and every vegetables? Yeah. Whatever the vegetables you go in now in Indian grocery stores? Everything. (00:37:28) BRODY You had that all there then. (00:37:30) PRAMOD SHAH Yes, Gujurati peoples, there have a different kind of vegetables. Maharashtrian people different. So accordingly, South Indian- totally different vegetables. All those vegetables. (00:37:47) BRODY You had all that. What about mangoes? Was that a big? (00:37:50) PRAMOD SHAH Mango in the season? Yes! (00:37:51) BRODY In season. (00:37:52) PRAMOD SHAH Oh yeah! (00:37:53) BRODY Did you have different varieties of mangoes? (00:37:55) PRAMOD SHAH No. That mean- that mangoes? Not from India. (00:37:59) BRODY No. (00:38:00) PRAMOD SHAH Whatever the varieties of mango in Mexico? Yeah. (00:38:04) BRODY OK. And they sold well. (00:38:07) PRAMOD SHAH Oh yeah. (00:38:07) BRODY Yeah. (00:38:08) PRAMOD SHAH Oh yes. (00:38:10) BRODY So obviously for the customers who were coming in who were from India, originally your store offered a taste of home and some familiarity. Can you talk to me a little bit about, sort of the, the role that your store played in helping people feel more at home in their new, you know, living here or raising their kids here? (00:38:39) PRAMOD SHAH Varieties of people, things. Yeah. And because we are growing fast and adding lots of items in this. Then the Pakistanis started coming, Bangladeshi started coming, and Nepali people also started coming. (00:39:01) BRODY Did you do you feel like your store was sort of a place where people got information, sort of a community hub? (00:39:13) PRAMOD SHAH Well, it is a very good point. After that, what happened, the population- of Indian population increased so much. Then the Gujarati Association started- Gujarati Samaj. Even Hyderabadi, or Tamil people. All those people had their own association. So I started giving them help whenever they have needs, something, I say, " ; OK, I will get it for you." ; (00:39:45) BRODY What kind of things might they need? (00:39:48) PRAMOD SHAH Like suppose. Kite Festival. So the Gujurati Samaj, they wanted to start a Kite Festival here also. So I get all the kites and everything. Thread, kites, everything from India. And the very first time, I says, " ; OK, this is- this is a gift from the Taj Mahal Imports." ; So they have a very nice, right? Plus in the very first Kite Festival, there are 150 people came. (00:40:16) BRODY Where was it? (00:40:17) PRAMOD SHAH There? What was that big lake? I forgot. It' ; s been a long time back. So, near some big, very big lake here, (00:40:26) BRODY Here in Dallas? (00:40:27) PRAMOD SHAH In Dallas, they have that. They' ; ve got the permission from that. So. But after that, what happened? The people they wanted to slowly, slowly, they wanted to teach their kids also. So they started coming to the store and buy all the stock there from us. (00:40:49) BRODY So they were happy to have a kite festival in Dallas, and then they also wanted to get the supplies so they could do things at home with their kids. (00:40:59) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, and the Maharashtri people, they like some, you know, the mango pulp. All right. So there are some very good mango pulp available in Maharashtra also. So they give me the can also " ; Look, this is the best mango pulp." ; So I started like that. Whoever comes, give me this tip. Yes. (00:41:24) BRODY It' ; s really interesting that as the community grew here, that these associations for the different parts of India started forming here in Dallas. So, you mentioned the kite festival that you were part of. What were some other sort of things that the associations, the various associations were doing that you were involved in? (00:41:44) PRAMOD SHAH So, Holi? (00:41:48) BRODY Tell me about that, what is it? (00:41:49) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, this Hindu temple started, they feel, " ; OK, let' ; s start the Holi also." ; So they started that Holi function. (00:42:01) BRODY What is that? What does that look like? (00:42:05) PRAMOD SHAH Holi functions looks like...Mainly, it' ; s a religious thing, you know. They have a fire. They put lots of nice...this and the fire little bit and they, everybody go around and whatever the things they have to say whatever it is, they do that this. And the next day of Holi is the color festival. Right? (00:42:41) BRODY Yes. (00:42:41) PRAMOD SHAH So the colors, they put it on everybody, right? It is, and all these thing is, you know, for us, it is all adding in the item, adding in the item continuously, all this, this then the Krishna Jayanthi, right? So Renuka used to get the nice, small, small Krishna statues and all this thing. So in that also they, you need, you know, the born on the one o' ; clock in the morning of the Krishna. So they put it in that to get. (Speaking in Gujurati to Renuka Shah) What we call that? This is OK... Sleeping things, so they put it there and do this to right everybody to do that thing at home also. They take home and buy this in home. Yes. (00:43:47) BRODY So you were able to supply those things? (00:43:49) PRAMOD SHAH Activities, whatever they need. That also, we started slowly, slowly because all kind of temples, you know, Hindu temple and then the South Indian makes, the Bengali people has a different kind, Maharashtrian people has a different kind. So all of those things. (00:44:06) BRODY All the different supplies you were able... (00:44:08) PRAMOD SHAH Started selling the big temples. (00:44:13) BRODY Oh, a big temple. Like a model? (00:44:15) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, very nice. (00:44:17) BRODY For- what did people use those for? (00:44:20) PRAMOD SHAH For, they put the all the- whatever they get, buy- the statues of gods and all this. They put it. (00:44:29) BRODY In their home? (00:44:29) PRAMOD SHAH In the home. (00:44:30) BRODY Yeah. So did you have a wide variety? That sounds like it takes up a lot of space? Did you stock a lot of the little home temples? (00:44:41) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, yeah. (00:44:42) BRODY How did you... (00:44:43) PRAMOD SHAH Starting from two feet to three feet to four feet? (00:44:46) BRODY And did they sell well? (00:44:47) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, yeah. (00:44:51) BRODY That' ; s really interesting, and I think people were probably grateful to have a place to purchase those. Well, what were some other things in the store that brought people in? Did you do phone cards or videos, things like that? (00:45:14) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (00:45:15) BRODY Tell me about the- let' ; s start with the phone cards. (00:45:17) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, phone cards. You know, and by the time the phone cards started, before then, my store was very famous everywhere or for all the Indians. So whatever the, whoever Indians started the phone card business, they came to us and yes, we started selling phone cards. (00:45:34) BRODY What did people use the phone cards for? Since that' ; s no longer a thing that people use? Tell me about what the, what the function of the phone cards. (00:45:41) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Function of the phone card is you can call and if you use that phone card, calling your parents or something, right? So they have like only like five, five cents per minute, ten cents, so, so, so cheap! When they use their own, it' ; s costly. (00:46:04) BRODY Right. (00:46:05) PRAMOD SHAH Right. So because of that, the phone card sales was like huge. Huge. Very good. (00:46:11) BRODY So just making a long distance call on your phone. International call was quite expensive, but if you purchased a phone card, it was like a prepaid lower per minute fee. Is that right? (00:46:23) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. Right. And the kitchen utensils. (00:46:31) BRODY What kinds of kitchen utensils? (00:46:34) PRAMOD SHAH Everything. Whatever you need, you know, required for cooking, (00:46:38) BRODY For Indian cooking? (00:46:39) PRAMOD SHAH Indian cooking.Yes. (00:46:40) BRODY So what were some examples? (00:46:46) PRAMOD SHAH (Speaking Gujurati to Renuka Shah) Starting from easy, easy to the you know, you want to make the tea, when you make the tea, you need a way to handle... (00:47:03) BRODY Right to make it Indian tea. (00:47:05) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. So you put it on, but then you, you cannot do with some thing and you have to use that thing. The tea cooking, roti making stainless steel utensils, you know. And there are lots of varieties. Cooking the roti, to make the roti in this. You need that. (00:47:29) BRODY Special pan. (00:47:31) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. And the, yes, plate to eat? (00:47:39) BRODY Yes. Well, like the stainless steel plates? (00:47:42) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. Yes, small bowls. If you have, you know, the liquid stuff. I think spoons. (00:47:51) BRODY All of those things were things that an Indian family might, might use. Were, were people who were not Indian purchasing those as well? (00:48:03) PRAMOD SHAH But we were using very, very good quality of stainless steel in that. See the storage like, you know, you buy, you buy like 4 kilos of rice, so how you put it? So you need the storage area. So that storage is also stainless steel. We used to have a stainless steel can kind of stuff, big one. (00:48:26) BRODY A stainless steel like a bin to put the rice in? (00:48:29) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (00:48:30) BRODY Yes. So it seems like you were thinking of everything that Indian people setting up a household here in Dallas might need to, to stock their kitchen, communicate back home. (00:48:50) PRAMOD SHAH Then the videos started. (00:48:52) BRODY Tell me about the videos. Yes, the videos. (00:48:55) PRAMOD SHAH All kind of videos. Like movies everywhere in India. South Indian movies, South Indian language, Gujarati movies, mainly Hindi movies, Hindi language. All the movies. There were a guy here. He used, he was- all the movies, video, the publicity in India- he had a contact with them. So he used to get it from there. And we were buying from him. (00:49:31) BRODY The VHS tapes? (00:49:33) PRAMOD SHAH Yes, the VHS tapes. (00:49:35) BRODY So how soon after a movie came out in India, were you able to get the VHS? (00:49:42) PRAMOD SHAH Oh...between two, two weeks, less than two weeks. (00:49:44) BRODY Really? (00:49:44) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (00:49:45) BRODY So even if it was in the theater there, you could get it on VHS here. (00:49:50) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Yes. (00:49:52) BRODY So how was the process of renting those movies out? They were rentals, right? (00:49:57) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, yeah. (00:49:58) BRODY So you had sort of a library of movies in the store? (00:50:02) PRAMOD SHAH The big area. From there to there? (Gestures). (00:50:05) BRODY Yeah. So a big area and shelves. Did you have an index or something? How did people find the movies? Oh, like how did they know what you had there? (00:50:18) PRAMOD SHAH They know. They see, by the time, lots of news also coming from India through TV. So they know which are the new movies. And they are...They have their family members, the rest of the family members in India. They also talk. (00:50:35) BRODY Right? (00:50:35) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. So that' ; s the way they know, and they used to come to us. (00:50:43) RENUKA SHAH Also, the supplier of these VHS tapes, like you can call it, like a wholesaler from here. That person would have latest movies. So he would obviously supply to us, so we would know which ones are coming and we were arranging that alphabetical order. (00:51:02) PRAMOD SHAH So, so once, you know, once they are got used to it and they go, " ; Hey, Pramod what is a new movie you got?" ; That' ; s what they.... (00:51:10) BRODY They just come to you, and they just ask you what' ; s new. And you said you arranged them in alphabetical order and then so people came in and just were browsing like at a library. (00:51:21) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, yeah. And they can even read also, (00:51:24) BRODY They can see it. Yes, with the labels on the side. And then did you have like a membership card or something like that? How did you keep track? (00:51:33) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. It started with the notebook. Yeah. Right? That also alphabetical names, you know? OK, this guy took the movie, date. Right? So the rate is like a day. Right. So when they when they return, " ; Ok. All right. Sir, you have to pay $4. Sir, you have to pay." ; They pay. (00:51:59) BRODY Right. At that return time. How much did you charge per day at the beginning? Do you remember? (Pramod Shah gestures) $1? One dollar a day? (00:52:10) PRAMOD SHAH It also depends again. So on some movies, they' ; re costly for us. So we charge $2. (00:52:15) BRODY OK. So there were different categories in movies as well. (00:52:19) PRAMOD SHAH If the movies comes from South India, that is also costly. So because in South, they were not watching in...They go straight to the theater. So that may maybe a manufacturing in VHS, doing the VHS of those movie must be costly in India also. So accordingly, they charge us so. (00:52:45) BRODY So. Were people pretty good about bringing the movies back? (00:52:50) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (00:52:51) BRODY Or did you have problems with that? OK, that' ; s good. That' ; s good. Also, was there damage ever to the movies, to the VHS? Did you run into that? (00:53:01) PRAMOD SHAH Very rare. No, I don' ; t think so. (00:53:02) BRODY Good. People really just watched them and brought them back. That' ; s great. Well, I wonder if did, do you get much feedback about when you started the videos, were people really happy about it? (00:53:17) PRAMOD SHAH Very happy. One, what the very, very happy who were very, very happy. You know, Mahabharat and Ramayan. Not even the video. Not the movies. And the Mahabharat and Ramayan starts in India. Oh my God. In India, the you know what happened in India at the time? When the Mahabharat and Ramayan starts, nobody go outside the house. Everybody' ; s sitting. (00:53:46) BRODY And watching the TV. (00:53:47) PRAMOD SHAH Watching the TV. (00:53:48) BRODY Yeah, this is on. How often was this on? (00:53:53) PRAMOD SHAH Every? (00:53:55) RENUKA SHAH I don' ; t know how frequently the episodes where shown on TV there. (00:54:01) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, we used to...You know, it' ; s a long thing, so it comes every day. Mahabharat. Every day, in the evening time in India. (00:54:10) BRODY OK. OK. (00:54:11) PRAMOD SHAH So at that time, everybody sitting here, all the businesspeople are sitting and women. (00:54:19) BRODY So it was a very popular show and it was on frequently. So since it was on TV, how did you get it here? (00:54:29) PRAMOD SHAH Same thing. VHS. Yeah, yeah. We used to get all the supplies and get it? Yes. Yes. (00:54:38) BRODY OK, so then that did you just have one copy of each or did you need much more than that? (00:54:46) PRAMOD SHAH We get one copy original delivered for this and the rest of the copies, we, there is the one machine you can transport from there, OK? So we used to do that to make it more. (00:55:02) BRODY Because you had a lot of demand. (00:55:04) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (00:55:06) BRODY That' ; s interesting. So tell me now about community events, things that your store at this point, you' ; re a very big store, very popular store and lots of ties within the community here in Dallas. What types of community activities or community events were you involved in as leaders in the community? (00:55:36) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, lots of is all, as I told you, you know, it' ; s all kind of-Hyderabadi Association, Telegu Association, Tamil Association. All those associations started. Right. So when they have some functions and needed some special items from Hyderabad or yes, yes,yes...They give us all the details, and we tried to get it and give it to them. (00:56:03) BRODY Right. (00:56:05) PRAMOD SHAH Mainly India Association. Huge. (00:56:07) BRODY Yeah. Tell me about your sort of interaction with them. (00:56:11) PRAMOD SHAH India Association...is...This started? You know, August? Fifteenth August. Big function. Very, very big functions. More than twelve, thirteen thousand Indians used to come. (00:56:35) BRODY Where, where did they host, where did they hold those events? (00:56:37) PRAMOD SHAH They started with one big hall, very, very big hall. The City of Dallas hall and big hall. Right? And they have there, all kind of items, means food items. Whoever wants to do the business there, they gave us some this area. (00:56:57) BRODY Like a booth? (00:56:58) PRAMOD SHAH Booth. And everybody knew that, so that' ; s the way they started. (00:57:03) BRODY What did you do in your booth? (00:57:06) PRAMOD SHAH No, we didn' ; t start it right away, OK? Because in the food, we started up in 98. 98, right? Taj Chaat House. (00:57:22) RENUKA SHAH And before that, we had Chaat Corner here. (00:57:26) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. 1996. We started doing that thing. Yes. There' ; s a fast food we call " ; Chaat House." ; (00:57:40) BRODY And was this something that you sold in the store as well? (00:57:44) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, in this we created, you know...after, in the year 2001. We moved that location. The same shopping center. We got 8000 square feet. There was empty...It must be something there and there. And so we rent that. We moved our store from there to the 8000 square feet. And even only after one year, there was another 8000. You know, next to it. We got that also. We rent that also. The total store is in the 2000. (00:58:39) RENUKA SHAH 1996. (00:58:40) PRAMOD SHAH No. (00:58:41) RENUKA SHAH 1996. (00:58:42) PRAMOD SHAH 1996. 16000 square feet. (00:58:46) BRODY 16000. So you had started out at two thousand square feet and you ended up by (00:58:52) PRAMOD SHAH 16000 square feet. Biggest Indian grocery store in U.S.A. at that time. Because that is the reason because there are lots of people in New York, New Jersey, Chicago, but their real estate is very costly in those areas, in these cities. Here in Texas. Yeah, it' ; s not much. So they, they have a very hard time if they want to open this big. They may be end up paying, oh my God, sixty, seventy thousand per month. (00:59:26) BRODY Yeah. So how much, do you remember how much you were paying? (00:59:29) PRAMOD SHAH Ah, we were paying oh, sixteen, oh oh. (Speaking to Renuka Shah) 16000 multiplied by point seven zero. (00:59:50) BRODY Point seven zero per square foot. Yeah. So much less expensive than Chicago or New York. (00:59:58) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. They pay there...I know that there are lots of those people also need to contact me, you know. So they pay 150 to 250 per square feet. (01:00:10) BRODY Well, wow. So, it' ; s a lot less expensive. So you had a lot more square feet to fill up in that in that store. What were the various new departments that you added when you expanded? (01:00:22) PRAMOD SHAH Started making rangoli... (01:00:23) BRODY And yet let' ; s hear about that, the rangoli. Can you tell me more about it? (01:00:29) PRAMOD SHAH Rangoli specially (Gestures to Renuka Shah) (01:00:33) BRODY Tell me about the rangoli. When do you do? When did you do that? (01:00:37) PRAMOD SHAH 90 (Speaks in Gujurati to Renuka Shah) 96. Sorry! Sorry, sorry. (01:00:44) BRODY 1996. So you had all this new space so well, and this is, what did you decide to do? (01:00:51) PRAMOD SHAH The Diwali time? Make a rangoli. (01:00:52) BRODY Yeah. So for people who don' ; t know what a rangoli is, tell me what is a rangoli? (01:00:58) PRAMOD SHAH People, mostly know. Because before we started this rangoli, you know, we have already started selling the rangoli also. The Gujurati people, they do, they use more. (01:01:12) BRODY So at Diwali time, you do a (01:01:16) PRAMOD SHAH Gujurati and Maharashtrian, both. (01:01:18) BRODY And it' ; s a form of art. (01:01:21) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (01:01:21) BRODY So where is it? (01:01:22) PRAMOD SHAH They must be using, doing it, teaching their kids in the house or something. (01:01:27) BRODY So you were selling the sort of supplies. (01:01:30) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (01:01:30) BRODY To people. But then in this in the story, you created a (01:01:34) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, (01:01:35) BRODY a large one? (01:01:37) PRAMOD SHAH A large one. (01:01:37) BRODY Yeah. How long did it take to do that? (01:01:40) PRAMOD SHAH Well, it depends. And yeah, but easily, easily, oh, my God. I used to keep the track also of hours. Like, five people went- about five people work on it and each must have spent about more than about 200 hours. (01:02:10) BRODY Really. (01:02:13) PRAMOD SHAH A lot. Because lots and lots of... There are- it starts with the painting first. Then filling, drawing first. Then, starting- which colors will go on head, face, and all those stuff. To do all these things. And for that also you have to mix the- create the colors also. (01:02:37) BRODY And you create them out of sort of a sand, right? (01:02:40) PRAMOD SHAH Yes, yes. One guy is doing that, one is doing the picture, one is started putting this thing, all this thing. Five people minimum per, no matter how big it is. Yes. (01:02:54) BRODY Then did people come in and watch the work being done? Did people, customers come and watch? (01:03:02) PRAMOD SHAH Watch? We will start, you know, start doing, and then it got very famous. Very, very famous. (01:03:08) BRODY Yeah. How did it get famous? (01:03:11) PRAMOD SHAH People started and seeing that and you say, " ; Hey, have you been to Taj Mahal? They have a nice rangoli." ; (01:03:20) BRODY Yeah, so people started coming to see it. What time of year was this typically? (01:03:27) PRAMOD SHAH Diwali time means in October or early November. And middle of October to November. Yes. (01:03:35) BRODY So did I mean, obviously people who are celebrating Diwali are coming, but were there people, other people from the community that came to see? (01:03:45) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, yeah. All this, all this, on this community, some people must be knowing to the, the newspaper people. (01:03:53) BRODY OK, so you were covered in the newspaper? (01:03:54) PRAMOD SHAH They must be calling them, though. So they started... (01:03:58) BRODY So that, like the Dallas Morning News started coming to cover the rangoli as well? (01:04:05) PRAMOD SHAH And the radio people also, you know, news? Yes. (01:04:16) BRODY Were there any other cultural events, holidays like the rangoli that you were involved in and we' ; ve talked about the Krishna ceremony, things like that, were there any other things like that that you could think of? (01:04:28) PRAMOD SHAH This is really not much because there are lots of South Indian people has, you know, and have religious days. Some religious days and all these things, but not much people they come to us to- for that. You know what, you why don' ; t you get these or did you get these like that? So the very few we know, like all over India is famous like Ram_________it' ; s all those things. (01:05:08) BRODY So you had- we started talking about the rangoli because you had all this extra space when you expanded to sixteen thousand square feet. What about what other things did you fill? You- I know you had the movies, you had the phone cards, you had the spices and the foods and the produce. Were there, were there other items that now that you had all this space- bigger items? (01:05:29) PRAMOD SHAH She just reminded me one very, very, very good items. You know the Ganesh, Ganesha? In Bombay everywhere? Yeah. They keep it for 15, 20 days. And then at the end of it, they put it in the river or sea, right? So that is Ganesh Chaturthi. So Ganesha, very big selling. We used to get it from India, directly- Ganesha Murti. From this size (Gestures a small, several inch size) to four feet high also. Big...And two feet high, all the temple used to get it, those. (01:06:09) BRODY The temples would buy them from you. (01:06:10) PRAMOD SHAH Yes, they get it and they have a big function of that. So lots of people go at, in that function. So temple also gets lots of money because wherever they go to temple, they put some money. (01:06:27) BRODY That' ; s great, so. So this store really, there is no limit now. Like you' ; ve got all sorts of- and it' ; s not just groceries, it' ; s not, it' ; s not just movies, there' ; s things. What were other things that Indians in Dallas needed from you? Were there, you know things for it, for travel, things for, you know, teaching their children? (01:06:55) PRAMOD SHAH The biggest advantage of my store to all the Indian people is because of my store is just doing so good, all of the sari store, travel agency, jewelry store, all those people come in the same shopping center. (01:07:15) BRODY Oh, so you were like an anchor? (01:07:17) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (01:07:18) BRODY So, so your neighbors must have been pretty happy you were there. (01:07:23) PRAMOD SHAH Two or three South Indian restaurants also came. Punjabi restaurants. All those things. (01:07:31) BRODY Right there in that in that plaza? (01:07:33) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (01:07:34) BRODY So, you know, somebody could come and spend the afternoon. They' ; re going to get groceries and clothes and luggage. Did you sell luggage in the store? (01:07:47) PRAMOD SHAH No, no, no. There was a big sari store. They had the luggage and everything. Everything they had, they used to carry luggage. (01:07:53) BRODY So in your store, did you sell, at any point, did you sell clothing? (01:07:58) PRAMOD SHAH No, no, we started. The people started asking, " ; Why don' ; t you give this?" ; So we started artificial jewelry. And, and bangles, the glass bangles and metal bangles in the arm. Do you know what they were in India that they used, right? All those things also we started. (01:08:18) BRODY Great. So this or that was so good for people to be able to have access to that sort of thing, the costume jewelry. (01:08:23) PRAMOD SHAH Bindi also. (01:08:23) BRODY Bindi' ; s as well? Yes. Yes. (01:08:30) PRAMOD SHAH And Bindi also very nice, very beautiful. Matching to your (01:08:37) BRODY to your sari? (01:08:38) PRAMOD SHAH Clothes, saris, or... (01:08:40) BRODY Shoes? Did you sell shoes there? (01:08:43) PRAMOD SHAH For a while? Chappal, right? Yeah. Slippers, chappals, from Bata. (01:08:50) BRODY Bata shoes. (01:08:52) RENUKA SHAH Fancy chappals only. For ladies. (01:08:53) BRODY Just fancy ones. Yeah, but that was just for a short time. (01:08:58) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (01:09:00) BRODY I want to go back- to you mentioned that in 2001, you started that chaat corner. What was that? What did it look like and what prompted you to do that? (01:09:12) RENUKA SHAH First, let' ; s correct the time- the year. I think we started in 1996. The Chaat Corner. (01:09:19) BRODY 96. Okay. Okay. And so what was it? (01:09:26) PRAMOD SHAH When we started first, you know, there was only items like, we' ; re like, yeah, (Gestures) this big area. The pani puri. And it is it is like a chaat item, chaat items in, you know, in like Maharashtra or north. Not in the South mainly. You know, it' ; s popular. But from, from Goa, it' ; s all popular like this. Pani puri, bhel mix means, muramura, and all other items. Mix it and put the two, three varieties of chutneys in that, right? And the pav bhaji. Pav bhaji, parathas. And....we did. We started the juice also. Juice, juices. (01:10:37) BRODY What kind of juice? (01:10:39) PRAMOD SHAH Mango juice and then sugarcane juice. Yeah, that was the most selling. (01:10:48) BRODY Really sugarcane juice. (01:10:49) PRAMOD SHAH Sugarcane juice. (01:10:50) BRODY So was it open all the time when the store was open or just at meals? (01:10:56) PRAMOD SHAH All the time the store was open. (01:10:56) BRODY So was it pretty crowded? (01:10:59) PRAMOD SHAH Coconut. We used to get the coconut and then cut it nicely and give it with the straw. Coconut in the hand and they drink the real, fresh coconut water. (01:11:13) BRODY That' ; s really nice. So was it pretty crowded, busy time? (01:11:20) PRAMOD SHAH Ooh. Saturday and Sunday. Very busy. Yeah, very busy. (01:11:28) BRODY Did families come or was it mostly... (01:11:30) PRAMOD SHAH Oh yeah. (01:11:32) BRODY The whole family would come and have juice and snacks and things like? Did so...But at this point, how large was your staff? Did you have just the two of you? (01:11:45) PRAMOD SHAH Particularly in that area? There are six seven people. (01:11:49) BRODY Working? (01:11:50) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (01:11:50) BRODY Okay. How did you find the staff for that? Was it difficult? (01:11:56) PRAMOD SHAH No, it was not difficult now because all this time there are lots of people there, you know, like their wife is not working anywhere. All right. So a lot of people used to... Punjabi people at that time used to come a lot. Yeah. And the Punjabis people, they are not mainly highly educated or something. So they started coming all sorts. So we get lots of yeah, yeah. (01:12:26) BRODY You get a lot of a mix. Just given where your location was, you know, during that time period, there were a lot of, you know, office buildings and things like that in the area. Were you crowded at lunchtime with people who were not just Indian? (01:12:43) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah...lunchtime. (01:12:43) BRODY Yeah. (01:12:45) PRAMOD SHAH That' ; s when the American people also started. The lunch time. The Indian, yeah, he says, " ; Let' ; s go and eat something or drink something to Taj Mahal." ; So, you know, they come as a friend and yeah. (01:12:57) BRODY And they like it. (01:12:59) PRAMOD SHAH They like it. They like it. (01:13:02) BRODY That' ; s, that' ; s an interesting way that you were able to share Indian culture with a broader group. Did you, do you feel like and looking back at your store and your time in business, you know what, what role do you think that your business played in, I guess, educating people about India in Indian culture? (01:13:31) PRAMOD SHAH Huge. (01:13:32) BRODY Yes. Tell me more about your thoughts about that. (01:13:35) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, we actually in (Speaking Gujurati to Renuka Shah) When we started there, you know, one lady started a cooking classes in our store. (01:13:58) BRODY So you had cooking classes in the store? (01:13:59) PRAMOD SHAH We had- there was a space. (01:14:01) BRODY Because you had- once you had the more space. (01:14:03) PRAMOD SHAH The space where we used to do the rangoli, and when the rangoli is over. Nine, nine months...It' ; s, you know. So one lady also started there. Yeah. So there also, American people used to come. (01:14:17) BRODY So they were- a lady came and she gave, briefly, Indian cooking lessons. (01:14:21) PRAMOD SHAH Cooking lessons. (01:14:22) BRODY Do you remember what she cooked? What types of things were being taught? (01:14:26) PRAMOD SHAH Mostly North Indian. North Indian foods, as is I told you know, not the, you know. It' ; s a huge difference between the North Indian food and the South. (01:14:39) BRODY Yeah, yeah, there is. So in the time that that cooking class is going on, that piece of education was going on, you know, do you have any other thoughts about sort of the place that or the role that your store played in spreading Indian culture or sharing Indian culture? (01:14:58) PRAMOD SHAH There were lots of books. And. Oh, yes, I remember something. Sometimes, on weekend, Hare Krishna temple people used to come and sit outside the store and I provide them to table and chairs. And they used to talk to the people. (01:15:36) BRODY As they were coming through. (01:15:37) PRAMOD SHAH They were mainly because they says, " ; Okay, we have a this temple. So you can come to temple and then what we do in the temple." ; And they also they used to give all these things too. Yes, very good. Yeah. And then we started, then slowly, slowly, what happened is we started selling the ayurvedic products. (01:16:05) BRODY So what type of products were those be? (01:16:08) PRAMOD SHAH Right? Yeah. Started from the ayurvedic. The...we don' ; t write medicine. This is- we write on that the " ; herbal supplements." ; So the ayurvedic products we used to get it from the India' ; s, the biggest number one manufacturer in Hyderabad. So there- what is the name? Baidyanath is company name. Baidyanath. And the- who started the herbal supplements and the exports making the medicine. There in India, they say " ; medicine." ; Making the medicines. Now they start. Yeah. They started exporting those also. (01:17:07) BRODY Ayurvedic products. (01:17:08) PRAMOD SHAH Ayurvedic products. " ; Ayurvedic Herbal supplement" ; is the American name. Yes. (01:17:12) BRODY Yes. So- that- were those popular sellers as well? Was that something that people... (01:17:18) PRAMOD SHAH Within India? Yes. Yes, yes. (01:17:20) BRODY And here in your store? (01:17:21) PRAMOD SHAH What we used to...started when we started. Then those Baidyanath people they offered us, right? That, " ; Can we send one ayurvedic guy doctor?" ; In India, there is a lots of ayurvedic doctors also. To your store, in the store and even you can so that you can do free of charge. Anybody has a problem. And with the regular medicine, it' ; s not possible to cure it, what to do and what you know. So yeah, so we you know the free- the doctor. We started. About not long, long time, but at least at least 30, 30 days a year in the one year, 30 days he comes there and... (01:18:18) BRODY He just sat in the store and talked to people if they wanted to talk to him. (01:18:23) PRAMOD SHAH Correct. Correct. (01:18:24) BRODY That' ; s interesting. You mentioned that there were books in the store. Like, would those be things that popular books from, you know, from India that were like the movies coming in at that time? And also, did you have any books that people who are raising their children here in the United States...so Indian people who were raising their children here in the United States might want to help their kids learn something about India? (01:18:54) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. And those kind...Well, I think, yeah, we were, but not much, but the language and language books. (01:19:03) BRODY Yeah, tell me about that. (01:19:04) PRAMOD SHAH So many people, you know, the kids born here they will...It is not easy for them to learn their father, mother' ; s language, like our son (?). So we have all of the languages' ; book, from English to Hyderabad, from English to Keralian, and English to Gujarati, from English to Hindi, or English to Bengali. (01:19:30) BRODY You carried all of those? (01:19:31) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (01:19:33) BRODY Did you did you sell a lot of those? Were the families interested? (01:19:37) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. Yeah. (01:19:38) BRODY Yeah. Yes. Did you get much feedback from the parents? Were they...What did they say? (01:19:44) PRAMOD SHAH Very, very happy. (01:19:46) BRODY Yeah. So in these... (01:19:48) PRAMOD SHAH Sometimes, they come, " ; OK, my kid has started speaking Gujurati." ; (01:19:54) BRODY Great. Did you, that reminds me...I know that there are a lot of and you' ; ve talked about the religious piece of it. We' ; ve talked about now the language learning piece. Were there, other than the movies, were there sort of fun things, games that you sold in the store? (01:20:17) PRAMOD SHAH Very few. Yes. (01:20:17) BRODY Yeah. Tell me about the games. (01:20:18) PRAMOD SHAH There is a game called....(Speaks Gujurati to Renuka Shah) (01:20:28) RENUKA SHAH Snake and ladder? (01:20:29) PRAMOD SHAH Snake and ladder. Very few kind of (Speaking Gujurati to Renuka Shah) Oh, I keep forgetting all the names. (01:20:39) BRODY That' ; s OK. (01:20:42) PRAMOD SHAH Like in Mahabharat, they, you know, they played it is that (Speaks Gujurati to Renuka Shah). (01:20:52) BRODY So what about... (01:20:54) PRAMOD SHAH Something. What is it called? I don' ; t remember that. (01:20:58) BRODY That' ; s OK. That' ; s OK. Carrom? (01:21:02) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (01:21:02) BRODY Tell me about the carrom. (01:21:05) PRAMOD SHAH Carrom. Cricket. (01:21:06) BRODY You sold cricket supplies. (01:21:07) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Yeah. Yes. (01:21:10) BRODY Yeah. So tell me, tell me the things that...So let' ; s start with cricket and we' ; ll get to carrom. Tell me about...What, what were the supplies that you sold for cricket? (01:21:18) PRAMOD SHAH Cricket? Mainly? The items, cricket ball? Right? And cricket has up here (gestures) is the, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And this it is called stumps. Right? So they put it and that guy comes and he has to throw before this right? He throws the ball. And they play the carrom bat. It is called " ; bat" ; to those, you know, played that carrom bat, stumps, cricket bat, and cricket stumps and balls. (01:21:57) BRODY Yes. So you sold all those things? (01:21:59) PRAMOD SHAH There are two kind of balls. One is a solid ball and one is a tennis ball. (01:22:05) BRODY So was there a cricket community in in Dallas at that time? And did... (01:22:11) PRAMOD SHAH Started. Yeah. (01:22:14) BRODY They' ; re probably... (01:22:16) PRAMOD SHAH Gujurati people have started the cricket team. (01:22:18) BRODY Like a club or a team? (01:22:19) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. Yes. (01:22:20) BRODY So they could buy their supplies and practice? (01:22:23) PRAMOD SHAH Practice. Yeah. (01:22:23) BRODY All right. So tell me about carrom. What is carrom? (01:22:28) PRAMOD SHAH Carrom. Very good game. And the carrom is you have it- carrom- right? (01:22:35) RENUKA SHAH It' ; s a table game. (01:22:37) BRODY So we' ; ve got a board. (01:22:38) PRAMOD SHAH This is four, four (Speaks in Gujurati to Renuka Shah) you know... (01:22:48) BRODY So you' ; ve got- there' ; s a board with (01:22:50) PRAMOD SHAH With the four holes (01:22:52) BRODY Four corners (01:22:54) PRAMOD SHAH All the four corners or the holes, and you have a striker which is about 15, almost 15 grams. And the coins are five grams. So you play with that striker and hit the coins, so that coin- supposed to go to the hole. (01:23:21) BRODY Into the corners? (01:23:21) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. (01:23:23) BRODY And you can play with two people, four people? (01:23:26) PRAMOD SHAH Two or for. (01:23:29) BRODY So you carried the boards and the strikers and the coins all in the store? (01:23:34) PRAMOD SHAH And the powder. (01:23:35) BRODY And the, oh the powder. (01:23:36) PRAMOD SHAH When it' ; s not smooth much, you just have some. There' ; s a special powder for it. (01:23:42) BRODY To make it slippery. (01:23:43) PRAMOD SHAH Little bit. Yeah. (01:23:44) BRODY So were these big sellers, the carrom boards and supplies? (01:23:49) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. Yes. So because in India, most of the people, everybody, not only all over India is they play carrom at home? So yes. (01:23:58) BRODY Was there a large community of carrom players? (01:24:04) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. But then we started a Carrom Association. (01:24:07) BRODY OK, tell me about that. (01:24:09) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. So we, we have tournament within Texas, and Texas and Dallas, we started in Dallas first, Dallas Carrom Association. You know, tournament. Cowboy Carrom Association. (01:24:25) BRODY Cowboy Carrom Association. How large was the association? (01:24:31) PRAMOD SHAH Oh, about 20, 25 members. (01:24:35) BRODY And you mentioned tournaments? You hosted tournaments? (01:24:38) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah...We started hosting tournaments. There is a good area of India Association office. So there was a big, bigger than this (Gestures). (01:24:50) BRODY Large enough. (01:24:50) PRAMOD SHAH Uh-Huh. So we, we used to put the six or seven carrom boards (01:24:56) BRODY And host a tournament? (01:24:57) PRAMOD SHAH A tournament. (01:24:59) BRODY Over like a weekend or something like that. (01:25:02) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. Yes. (01:25:03) BRODY Did that grow? (01:25:04) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. That yeah. (01:25:06) BRODY Tell me about the growth in the Carrom Association and sort of all of your involvement in that. (01:25:13) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. So that helps lots of kids also because you know that, most of the people they come to, kids with them, " ; So, see, beta, you play it this way, this way, this." ; And he used to play, so they can see- the kids also see. So they started, the small carrom board. We started selling the carrom boards, a small carrom boards for the kids. (01:25:39) BRODY Right, right. (01:25:41) PRAMOD SHAH So but yeah, but then it becomes very big and it becomes a " ; Texas Carrom." ; So we, we hosted a carrom tournament. Texas Carrom Tournament. (01:25:56) BRODY Where did you host those? (01:25:57) PRAMOD SHAH The same place. This India Association office. (01:26:02) BRODY So still about six boards, or bigger, much bigger? (01:26:07) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (01:26:07) RENUKA SHAH Because people from Houston and any surrounding cities in Texas, they will be able to...They will come and participate here. (01:26:18) PRAMOD SHAH About 12, 14, depending on how many people are coming for to the tournament. (01:26:23) BRODY Did you charge a registration fee and things like that or just... (01:26:27) PRAMOD SHAH Yes. Little bit? Yes. (01:26:28) BRODY Yes. Was there a prize? (01:26:31) PRAMOD SHAH But the this doesn' ; t...And it doesn' ; t have to do with the Taj Mahal Imports. It goes to the Association? (01:26:38) BRODY Yes. Yes. So... (01:26:42) PRAMOD SHAH And prize. Yes. (01:26:43) BRODY What were the prizes? (01:26:44) PRAMOD SHAH Nice. Trophy. (01:26:46) BRODY Oh, that' ; s nice. (01:26:47) PRAMOD SHAH With the name on it. Whoever wins, we put their name and everything. (01:26:53) BRODY How long did that go on? (01:26:57) PRAMOD SHAH About three days. (01:26:59) BRODY Or how many years? (01:27:00) PRAMOD SHAH Oh. How many years? Well. This. This Texas and Dallas... (01:27:10) RENUKA SHAH Local tournaments didn' ; t last, you know, (01:27:13) PRAMOD SHAH Three, three, three, four years. Yeah. Then we entered in the national tournaments. (01:27:19) BRODY Oh you, you entered into the national tournaments. Now, do you mean that you, you all, the two of you entered into national tournaments? OK. (01:27:30) PRAMOD SHAH Host. We became. We began hosting the national tournament. (01:27:34) RENUKA SHAH We were players also. Participants. (01:27:36) BRODY Double duty. (01:27:38) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, so big. That is. There are lots of motel people here, and I have seen some motels and they were very big area, also empty. So we started in those motels who has empty area. Those places. Renting that. (01:27:53) BRODY How big when it, at its peak, how big were these tournaments? (01:27:58) PRAMOD SHAH Twenty-six to thirty carrom boards? (01:27:58) BRODY Wow, that' ; s pretty impressive. And I bet it was difficult to organize that. (01:28:05) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. US Carrom Association also. So organization-wise, they do. But the initial thing, to put the carrom boards so nicely and each carrom board has to have the lights also all those things to manage all those things, we used to do? (01:28:25) BRODY You guys did that. So people came from all over? (01:28:30) PRAMOD SHAH Arranging the carrom boards, strikers, coins, everything. (01:28:34) BRODY So it' ; s a lot of work. So the store was hosting it? (01:28:38) PRAMOD SHAH No, no, no. The store was giving the carrom boards. And all other items, like strikers and all these things, right? But when the International, no, National Carrom Tournament, all those people they used to come with their own striker. So we don' ; t have to worry about the striker at that time. Only coins and carrom boards, lights, and stands, chairs, seating and all those things we manage. Locally, we rent. (01:29:12) BRODY So, you know, you were doing that... (01:29:14) PRAMOD SHAH Carrom board, we supply. Only the Taj Mahal give. (01:29:16) BRODY The Taj Mahal sponsored in the sense of providing the carrom boards and so on, and the two of you were just interested and members of the association. And so you were helping out in that way as well, so as well playing. (01:29:30) PRAMOD SHAH She' ; s (Gestures toward Renuka Shah) a very good player, not me. Well, I am a very good managing guy. (01:29:35) BRODY Yeah. That' ; s why you' ; re a good team, it sounds like. (01:29:37) PRAMOD SHAH She used to represent Gujarat state. For all India Carrom Tournament. (01:29:43) BRODY That' ; s incredible. That' ; s incredible. (01:29:47) RENUKA SHAH (Inaudible) (01:29:49) BRODY So. When you expanded, how that, you know, how many more years did you stay open after the expansion? (01:30:05) PRAMOD SHAH Till 2016 end? (01:30:09) BRODY OK. OK, so when you look back at your time running this very large and successful Indian grocery store in this particular area, you know, what are what are some of the reflections that you have, what you know, what stands out to you as sort of your key experiences or key lessons that you learned during your years running the store? (01:30:39) PRAMOD SHAH Well, mainly. Most of the Indian people from India anywhere, at least they know us now. And we, we saw many places like India Association have a functions. We sponsored the " ; Kids Corner" ; all those kind of stuff. So everybody knows our, with our name also. Like they wherever we would go, " ; Hey Pramod, hey Pramod!" ; I don' ; t know the guy who is saying " ; Hi Pramod," ; the his name or anything, but this thing is, yeah. (01:31:21) RENUKA SHAH They still remember and miss us. Our store, our services. Our quality. (01:31:30) BRODY Yeah. Yeah, because you were a part of by being in charge of that store for so long and for supplying those things, all the things that people needed. You were a big part of people' ; s lives for a long, long time. If you could go back and tell yourself when you were starting one thing, Like if you could go back to the 1986 and tell yourself something, knowing what you know now, what would you, what advice would you give yourself? (01:32:06) PRAMOD SHAH Well, I have given only one advice to myself, just getting retired now. (01:32:15) BRODY That is funny. (01:32:18) RENUKA SHAH Lot of... all this thirty, thirty-five years, we worked like....We' ; ve never seen weekends almost unless, except when go to India for business work. And it' ; s like a 24/7 work, even when you' ; re at home in the middle of the night, even if a customer calls me, we would run for it. So we are always on the go. (01:32:41) BRODY Yeah, well, that' ; s really nice customer service. (01:32:44) PRAMOD SHAH And we both like. So one thing is it' ; s OK. Like if somebody is doing a good job and needs help. (01:32:53) BRODY You know, that' ; s great. And when you think about the changes in the Indian community and the Asian community in Dallas over all the years that you were in business, what are you know, what do you think about that? How would, you know, what are your reflections or thoughts about the changes over the years in the Indian community? (01:33:19) PRAMOD SHAH Not much, because you know, everybody' ; s becoming, you know, this busy, busy, busy, lots of South Indian people now. Right? And they are so busy. They' ; re working from home or they go to the office. Those huge, you know, so it' ; s good that the most south Indian, they come, they buy, they go. Right? And I, some, as I told you, some South Indian Association, we help them. Whenever they want, like there was a big, big, big, you know, about 6000 people, Hyderabad Association. All the Hyderabadi people all over the United States, they have a big function here in Dallas. OK, so they came in, they says " ; Pramod, you are the only one can supply us fresh coconut, you know?" ; We gave six thousand coconuts. (01:34:28) BRODY That' ; s great. (01:34:30) PRAMOD SHAH And we went, also went there. They put the straw and give it to everybody. (01:34:38) BRODY That' ; s nice. So do you feel like by the end of, you know, when you retired, what did you think that the...your store' ; s place in this community was? (01:35:08) PRAMOD SHAH Well, now, we are retired about three years now. So it' ; s... (01:35:13) RENUKA SHAH More than that. (01:35:15) PRAMOD SHAH 16 right? Oh yeah. Five years, so it' ; s not much, but we you know, we have some close friend also and during these five years, some good friends. So we met now, and we, we go to India also. And lots of places too in the United States also here. (01:35:43) BRODY You know, that' ; s great. Well, I' ; m glad you' ; re enjoying your retirement. That' ; s fantastic. Well. Trying to think if there' ; s anything we haven' ; t talked about or need to go back and talked about. Did you ever run into any discrimination or sort of racism in your either interactions with the general public or as you were trying to set up your business? (01:36:15) PRAMOD SHAH No, no, no. All the local people. So very nice. All the officers in Customs department. Here, everywhere because I used to import, so I was in touch with all those people. So, no. (01:36:30) BRODY You didn' ; t run into... (01:36:32) PRAMOD SHAH Even all the big, big wholesalers here, like I might buy almond, the local everywhere. Nice. Nice, nice people everywhere. Yes. (01:36:43) BRODY Yeah. How do you how did you try to go about setting up those relationships and sort of maintaining the relationships that you had with, you know, with the city leaders or people that you might interact with there or with, you know, the you mentioned the newspaper would come and interview or take pictures and things like that. You know, what was your philosophy or of, you know, how you presented yourself? (01:37:15) PRAMOD SHAH Tell you the truth after retirement? Yes. They' ; re also not in touch with me, and I am also not doing. (01:37:21) BRODY Yeah. But during the time that you were there, what did you? I guess what I' ; m asking is sort of did, did you have sort of a philosophy about how you wanted to present the store to the to the public? (01:37:35) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, that is, you know, as I told, when it' ; s the rangoli time, this is went on and that it was a big problem in India in 2021. Big earthquake in Gujarat at the time also. You know, those people helped us so much. they used to even on the news also, there is a big earthquake in India. If you want to help anyone, you know, go to Taj Mahal Imports, they used to announce also, OK. (01:38:11) BRODY And so did you did fundraising? (01:38:13) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. (01:38:15) BRODY And then you were able to sort of connect with the associations and present whatever money that the people collected. That' ; s nice. And so everyone. It sounds like what you' ; re saying is that in the local community, you were seen as the sort of the leader for the Indian community. (01:38:35) PRAMOD SHAH All the local people also when they come and see. They put the money or check, right? So, I was to, to people say, OK, worse than that. " ; OK, sir, would you like to drink tea, Indian tea? You want to try? It' ; s free." ; We used to do that also. (01:38:56) BRODY It' ; s very nice. (01:38:57) PRAMOD SHAH To them. Because they are so nice. (01:39:00) BRODY Yeah. So. That makes me think about, you know, nowadays, you know, we' ; ve got the internet, we' ; ve got TV and advertising, the radio, advertising, social media, all of that. But during the sort of peak of your store, none of that really was there. So was the store a place that people would put fliers and posters for events? Tell me more about that. (01:39:30) RENUKA SHAH Yes, we had set up a wall, actually a whole display wall where people could having their own, for example, having a baby and looking for a babysitter, looking for a job. Anything they want to advertise or anything they can take a slot from us and put it in that particular slot, their fliers, they come out and refill it. And that' ; s how they would advertise themselves and we were helping them that way to get what they want. (01:40:04) PRAMOD SHAH And we have some small idea of what some wall. Whoever wants to do like, you' ; re doing something. Suppose somebody is doing from home or their business. They can come and put the business card also there. (01:40:24) RENUKA SHAH Yeah, it was the whole display of fliers and cards. (01:40:27) PRAMOD SHAH Cards. (01:40:29) BRODY So it was kind of a community hub where people could get information. At that time, it' ; s, you know, it' ; s hard to imagine nowadays because we have so much information at our fingertips. But to find out something back then, you had to go look at something. So it sounds like your store was very helpful for people also in getting information about things that were happening, as well as seeking out babysitters or things like that. I don' ; t, you know, I don' ; t know if you knew, but were there people also who were starting their own little businesses, like especially like food, you know, making samosas or things like that, were those types of things going on during that time as well? Do you have any, any stories or any recollections? (01:41:20) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, we had one North Indian lady. She was making very good samosas, she told us and we tasted it, and it was nice. So she used to give us samosa- every week- supply? And when we opened a very big store, when we with the restaurant, she used come there and make it fresh there! (01:41:41) BRODY Oh, how nice. Yeah. So you had the best people? Yes, that' ; s great. And then when one last thing, I was wondering if you could...You mentioned the Kite Festival in January, then also the rest of the year. What were we talking about Diwali in in October? But what were the other other festivals that that you' ; re aware of that were Indian festivals that were going on? (01:42:12) RENUKA SHAH The one, particularly one of the main ones was that Ganesh Chaturthi where we used to get lots of Ganesh idols from small size to big ones. (01:42:22) PRAMOD SHAH And everybody buys, South Indian also. (01:42:26) RENUKA SHAH Big festival going on in the display and towards the end, it was like whole two weeks or more. (01:42:31) BRODY What time of year is that? (01:42:33) RENUKA SHAH It' ; s mostly about around August also or early part of September, that' ; s all. (01:42:42) BRODY And any other one? (01:42:49) RENUKA SHAH What else? (01:42:58) PRAMOD SHAH Krishna Jayanthi (Speaks in Gujurati) (01:43:05) BRODY Yeah, that' ; s OK. Well, one more question that I just thought of. We' ; ve talked about language and how India has so many different languages, and also how your store, your customers were from all different parts of India and, you know, working here in different capacities. How did you manage the fact that the same item might have different names to your various customers? Yeah. Tell me about what you did. Tell me about it. (01:43:39) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah. You know, different, different languages name like Hindi in what they call ,whatever the call in Hindi, same thing in Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada, Bengali. (01:43:55) BRODY So you kept a...You learned the words in all different languages? (01:43:59) PRAMOD SHAH No, no.I started asking people, when they come home, we call this thing been, you know, in Tamil Nadu, we call this name, this name. (01:44:09) BRODY So you kept a list. (01:44:11) RENUKA SHAH We kept a list of names. (01:44:13) BRODY And then how did you use that list? (01:44:19) PRAMOD SHAH We used to put it on some wall also and keeping in the office also. So if anybody were asking to some other, my employee or something, right? So the employee will take it, " ; OK, you look at this here." ; (01:44:35) BRODY Right? So you- people- it helps people communicate and to ultimately buy the item that they, that they need, right? Well, is there anything else that I haven' ; t asked you that that you' ; d like to share any stories that you remember that we haven' ; t talked about? (01:44:57) PRAMOD SHAH Oh, we forgot one thing. We have a very big sweet...Indian sweets. (01:45:03) BRODY Oh the sweets. Yeah, tell me about the sweets. Tell me about the Sweets Counter. (01:45:07) PRAMOD SHAH Yeah, there' ; s a very big, very big manufacturer in New York. And he used to supply us sweets every week, every week. By air, by air. Fresh. (01:45:19) BRODY So tell me what? What types of suites were the most popular? (01:45:23) PRAMOD SHAH Oh, very different names in North and South. Very different names. (01:45:29) RENUKA SHAH But as far as the category, we can say Bengali sweets, North Indian sweets, Gujurati sweets, something like that? (01:45:39) BRODY And did they sell pretty reliably? Did people buy them? (01:45:42) PRAMOD SHAH Oh yeah, right? Yes. Yes. (01:45:44) BRODY For, for parties, for? (01:45:47) RENUKA SHAH Parties. Yeah. At home, birthdays. Everything. (01:45:51) BRODY So really, by the end... (01:45:52) RENUKA SHAH Weddings. (01:45:54) BRODY Weddings. Yes. Yeah. Did you did you have wedding supplies as well as special things for, you know, for Indian weddings? There' ; s a lot of... (01:46:01) RENUKA SHAH Supplies. (01:46:02) PRAMOD SHAH Yes.Yes. (01:46:02) BRODY So what types of things were needed for the Indian weddings? (01:46:07) RENUKA SHAH Starting from any ceremony, any wedding ceremony, smaller ceremony to the end till the bride and groom gets married. All the supplies. We used to carry those, most of those things. (01:46:19) PRAMOD SHAH Then lots of Brahmin here, they do this all the wedding, yeah, (speaks Gujurati) ceremony. Wedding ceremony. This, they did do now, now, here everything. (01:46:34) BRODY They need all the supplies. (01:46:36) PRAMOD SHAH Yes, yes. And so many things. They bring it their own now and they charge for doing. (01:46:44) BRODY Yes. Yeah, most. So you were really central, it sounds like, to all the kind of key moments of your customers lives, right? From weddings to teaching their children to the various festivals and so on. So. Well, thank you very much for sharing your story. It' ; s been really interesting to hear about and I appreciate your time. (01:47:08) RENUKA SHAH Last thing I would like to add is like all the customers, they were enjoying the festivities at Taj Mahal Imports premises rather than at home. They will, whenever the festivity comes, they will come to Taj Mahal to feel and experience that festivity and because that' ; s how we were getting all the supplies. Besides that, there was a whole environment, you know, ambiance was like that and they were experiencing that, enjoying that festival there. (01:47:40) BRODY With other people. (01:47:42) RENUKA SHAH With other people. (01:47:44) PRAMOD SHAH In that the Ganesh Chaturthi. Big area being the Ganesh display. You know, you had a nice Ganesh display come with their kids and their kids do like this (Gestures). (01:47:57) BRODY They pray? (01:48:00) RENUKA SHAH And yeah, Diwali especially. (01:48:03) BRODY Especially. Did people dress up and come in? (01:48:08) RENUKA SHAH Yes, yes. (01:48:08) BRODY Yeah. And then they could have their snacks and sweets and everything. Well, again, thank you so much, and I really have appreciated learning more about your experiences and your story, and I' ; m glad to be able to record this for the archive. (01:48:26) RENUKA SHAH Thank you for finding us and letting us share memories of our business. (01:48:34) BRODY Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Pramod Shah, December 6, 2021
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2021oh002_di_002
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Indian
Asian American grocers
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2021-12-06
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audio
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Oral History
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Betsy Brody
Interviewee
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Nikky Phinyawatana
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5.4 Interview with Nikky Phinyawatana, May 9, 2022 2021oh002_di_012 01:43:36 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Thai Nikky Phinyawatana Betsy Brody m4a oh_audio_dig_phinyawatana_nikky_20220509.m4a 1:|15(1)|31(5)|41(11)|54(5)|65(2)|76(1)|84(14)|94(4)|107(14)|120(8)|131(12)|142(4)|154(15)|167(12)|181(2)|193(1)|202(10)|219(9)|230(2)|241(12)|251(12)|263(1)|274(13)|289(13)|307(5)|320(3)|331(15)|342(13)|353(4)|364(2)|374(5)|385(12)|397(6)|412(6)|428(3)|438(14)|450(12)|463(8)|475(16)|489(3)|497(8)|511(1)|525(12)|539(3)|551(8)|568(1)|577(7)|588(12)|601(14)|614(10)|624(12)|635(8)|646(8)|661(8)|674(2)|685(15)|697(1)|710(7)|723(13)|735(1)|746(12)|760(11)|771(2)|784(5)|795(1)|806(10)|819(9)|829(1)|839(6)|853(11)|870(5)|883(11)|893(11)|902(14)|914(7)|924(10)|933(4)|945(3)|959(4)|971(15)|983(8)|996(4)|1008(5)|1022(9)|1034(1)|1047(9)|1060(3)|1072(13)|1088(10)|1097(12)|1109(6)|1120(9)|1133(2)|1145(12)|1159(8)|1173(6)|1187(6)|1202(10)|1212(10)|1224(2)|1234(15)|1247(6)|1258(6) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/163084 Aviary audio 4 Introduction Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Thai ; Texas--History 34 Returning to Dallas from Bangkok to attend The Hockaday School/ Childhood interest in cooking Asian food ; baking ; Bangkok ; Chinatown ; cooking ; Dallas ; dim sum ; English ; food ; fruits ; Hockaday ; language ; markets ; noodles ; pho ; Plano ; Thai flavors ; Thailand 836 Studying Entrepreneur Studies at Babson College in Boston Babson College ; Boston ; Chinatown ; Chow Thai ; Dalla ; entrepreneur ; food ; Korea House ; Royal Thai ; Thai restaurants 1055 Returning to Dallas after 9/11 and joining family food delivery business 9/11 ; American Airlines ; business ; Chili's ; culinary school ; Dallas ; Dalls College ; entrepreneur ; food ; Food Network ; karaoke ; Thai Spice 1457 Attending culinary school at Dallas College chef ; cleanliness ; corporate ; culinary school ; Dallas College ; food ; front of the house ; safety ; sanitation 1558 Designing and opening Asian Mint alcohol ; Asian food ; Asian Mint ; bakery ; business ; Chili's ; comfort food ; cooking ; Dalla Morning News ; dessert ; egg roll ; fried rice ; fusion ; green ; Guide ; hospitality ; kung pao chicken ; logo ; marketing ; menu ; mongolian beef ; newspapers ; orange chicken ; P.F. Changs ; Pad See Ew ; Pad Thai ; palate ; Pei Wei ; summer rolls ; tamarind ; Thai food ; Thai restaurants ; western palate ; wine 32.92089644796654, -96.7718086441328 17 2094 Identifying as a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant Asian restaurant ; Brinker ; Chinatown ; consistency ; customers ; Dallas ; expansion ; flavors ; growth ; High Five ; Jewish ; logo ; marketing ; mom and pop ; neighborhood ; regulars ; Richardson ; Southern Methodist University ; Texas Instruments ; training 2508 Philosophy of hospitality culture ; food ; hospitality ; Jewish ; Thailand 2579 Choosing locations for Asian Mint restaurants business ; Dallas ; entrepreneur ; expansion ; growth ; Highland Park ; landlord ; location ; market research ; restaurant ; restaurants ; sushi ; Thai food ; Thai restaurants 3179 Building a team, systems, and processes for Asian Mint business ; entrepreneur ; expand ; expansion ; growth ; mom and pop ; regulars ; training 3681 Expanding Asian Mint to five locations Addison ; Asian Mint ; community ; cooking class ; COVID ; educate ; education ; expand ; expansion ; growth ; motherhood ; platform ; social media ; teaching 4276 Personal mission and platform brand ; chef ; educate ; education ; entrepreneur ; internet ; platform ; supermarket ; travel ; YouTube 4717 Reflections on " ; authenticity" ; and food Asian food ; authentic ; authenticity ; Bangkok ; barbecue ; bridge ; connections ; culture ; family ; food ; Pad Thai ; Thai flavors ; Thai food 4984 Leading culinary retreats to Asia Asia ; business ; culture ; educate ; education ; food ; hospitality ; regulars ; Thailand ; travel 5314 Impact of COVID, tornado, and ice storm Amazn ; community ; cooking class ; cooking kit ; COVID ; curbside ; Dallas ; ice storm ; labor ; pivot ; sauce ; tornado ; wok 5807 Asian Mint as a green restaurant business ; conscious capitalism ; green ; sustainability ; sustainable ; value 5943 Changes in the palate of the Dallas diner Asian community ; Asian flavors ; barbecue ; comfort food ; cultural ; culture ; customers ; Dallas ; education ; food ; fusion ; palate ; spicy ; Thai flavors ; western palate |00:00:04| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is May 9th, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Miss Nikky Phinyawatana. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging I:n How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you, Nikky, for joining me today. Let' ; s just start out with an easy question. Where and when were you born? |00:00:39| Phinyawatana I was born here in the Dallas, Texas area, and that was in 1977. December 15th. Actually. |00:00:51| Brody What brought your family to Texas? |00:00:53| Phinyawatana My family on my mom' ; s side is from the Plano area. And that' ; s where my parents met in Dallas. So half of my family lineage is from this area. |00:01:09| Brody Interesting. Where' ; s the other half from? |00:01:11| Phinyawatana The other half is from Bangkok,Thailand. |00:01:14| Brody How did your parents meet? |00:01:15| Phinyawatana They met here in Dallas while my dad was going to SMU. Undergrad. And my mom was working with my aunt in law during that same time. |00:01:33| Brody Awesome. So you were born in Dallas and did you go to school here? |00:01:39| Phinyawatana I went to school in Thailand, actually. So, after I was born about when I was around one, my family moved to Thailand to go back and work in the family business. My grandfather on my dad' ; s side had his own business, starting off in like the car air conditioner, like one of the first guys to put air conditioner in cars in Thailand and then started moving into a lot of electronics, whether it be phones, surround sound systems. And they had asked my dad to go back to help out with the family business. So I grew up in Thailand. Thai is really my first language. English is my second. And I lived there for over 16 years before my mom sent me over or shipped me back to Dallas to go to a boarding school here, which is an all girls school called Hockaday for my high school experience, part of my life as a full time boarder. So I was there 24/7 and that was from 10th, 11th and 12th grade. In 1993 through 1996. |00:02:58| Brody That' ; s really interesting. So what a unique experience to come back to the place that you were born as an international student, essentially. Do you have any memories from that time that were notable? |00:03:11| Phinyawatana Yes. Favorite, favorite times, definitely. So my mom was really smart because she, I guess, gave me a bet. You know, as a teenager in Thailand, she sent me to...I went full on in a Thai school, and then she moved me to an international school, realizing that I was not getting a lot of my education in English. So after she sent me to international school, I was still speaking Thai with my friends. And it was still not fully immersive as she was hoping and expecting. And doing that, I guess I was in eighth grade or ninth grade. She' ; s like, " ; As long...hey, Nikky, I won' ; t... Let' ; s do a bet." ; That' ; s what she said. " ; If you can just speak Thai. I' ; m sorry. If you could just speak English while we' ; re at home for a year. I won' ; t send you to school in America so that you can really pick it up. The reading, writing. speaking, all of the above." ; And, of course, as a teenager, it is hard to do something like that, you know, to follow your parents' ; rules and whatnot. So I basically lost the bet. But she was really smart in that she had sent me over for summer school and I had a blast. It was so much fun. We boarded in the boarding department at the school, and there' ; s only one school here in the Dallas area with a boarding department. And every weekend they would take us to somewhere fun whether it would be Six Flags, the waterparks, the Galleria mall. But there was just activities and activities and activities. And everyone in that school was super supportive and fun and loving. And I said, " ; I would love to come back and go to school here." ; So I went back, finished my school in Thailand, and I think I was like a year ahead in terms of like my age for the grade that I was in and they bumped me up a grade. So I came here at Hockaday as an ESL student or " ; English as a Second Language" ; student, and at the same time I was taking some regular ninth grade classes or tenth grade classes, tenth grade classes. And during that time, I was boarding. And, you know, there are options, whether it be where you would want to be sent to a boarding school here in the States. The East Coast are full of them. But she wanted to send me to Dallas because she knew that at least she would have her sister or my aunt to, you know, have an eye over me or be able to jump at a moment' ; s notice or take me to out every now and then and just be close also, with her mom. So that' ; s why she really wanted me to come to Dallas and during that time at Hockaday, I would have to say I missed my food, my Thai flavors, so much. So I was one of the maybe four Thai students at the time. We had students from all over the world. I remember a lot of Taiwanese, Chinese, Korean, us Thais. Don' ; t remember any Vietnamese for some reason. But, a lot of them from Mexico and....I' ; m trying to think if there' ; s anyone from Europe, but also from small towns around Dallas that wanted their daughter to have a different kind of education, I guess, and had sent them over, whether they' ; re from Paris, Texas or Longview and just all these other cities around. But what I was realizing that I was doing is every time I was coming back from Thailand, I would have a suitcase full of instant noodles, Mama Tom Yum, you know, or my clear noodles, some flavor packs. And I would be cooking up things that I grew up loving and all the flavors that were missing, whether it be you know, Thai Chili Pepper, snacks. I' ; m just...Wow. Just thinking about it is making me salivate. And all of these just yummy flavors I was cooking them in the dorm' ; s kitchen and I would share it with my friends. They also fell in love and started saying, " ; Hey, bring an extra case of ramen noodles" ; because they were spicy and sour and all these flavor profiles that we all miss, very similarities into Mexican flavor profiles and....Food is what I really revolved around. I remember missing even now today, you know, I remember the weekends we would always have these amazing donuts that I didn' ; t grow up with or bagels that I didn' ; t grow up with. And all my other friends are from all these other countries. They would request the ride to take us to Chinatown and I would get to go eat in like the Taiwanese cafe and learn about Taiwanese cuisine that I wasn' ; t, that I didn' ; t grow up with. I grew up with more Hong Kong style Chinese food. Pho places- fell in love with pho places here in the Dallas area. And we would have a busload of like fifteen girls from all around just going out for pho. I think our comfort food and our relationships actually did revolve around food a lot. |00:08:48| Brody That' ; s really interesting. So it was the being in the boarding situation that made you realize that you missed the food that you grew up with. Had you, when you were in Thailand, before you came over, had you been motivated by food or did you cook much then? |00:09:04| Phinyawatana I did. I think I was always into food and I was probably one of the few kids in Thailand that would be hanging out with my nanny. She was from the northeast part of Thailand- Isan, Ubon. And she would do all the weekly planning of what are we going to eat. And I was very involved in that because I had my favorite things like, " ; Hey, I really want to make sure I have my yum woon sen, you know, my clear noodle salad." ; My green curry is like my favorite things, you know, our stir fries, pak boong, which is like the water spinach, khai jiao, a very basic Thai omelet. And I was just like, " ; I want to learn how to make it. I want to go to the fresh market with her." ; So I would go to the fresh market with her and go and see how she picked things out. The fruits- I am a big, big fruit lover. The fresh papaya, the mango, the pineapple. Anything that was in season, whether it be mangosteen. I was not a big durian person, but a lot of like the rambutans. Like I' ; m just thinking the lychees, it' ; s like my haven. And when you get to go to the market, you also get to eat at the market and buy food and buy fruit and toys. And it was just so much fun to be able to have that experience and I would come home and want to make- and so the point that I was designated as the clear noodle salad person. You know, I was always chopping all these herbs and getting it under my fingernails and just smelling it throughout the day it was just so awesome. And I love, love that part of me just always kind of hanging out in the kitchen, even. And I was not a thin girl. I was always eating. And at the same time we had this American kitchen versus the Thai kitchen that was outdoors because there' ; s a lot of smell when it comes to Thai cooking. And my mom was probably like, you know, " ; I need a place where I can make my American everyday food." ; Like, what would she make for us a lot? Meat loaves. And a lot of baking. Broccoli casserole. The things that she grew up with. There was this chicken thighs that were cooked in like canned mushroom soup. Just things that are very, very, to me, Texan country style. And also baking. I was always baking. Whether it be, you know, those chocolate chip cookies with the Nestle Toll House recipe or cakes, pies, banana pudding. Like full on, to me, those are like true, true country style Texas recipes. That we would make in the inside kitchen and we make all the Thai stuff in the outside kitchen, and we have different refrigerators even, so there' ; s not cross-contamination on the smell of garlic or onions and green onions that would get into the butter and the milks and things like that. So, yes, a big, big, I guess, involvement in food while I even was in Thailand. |00:12:17| Brody Well, you never stopped, right? So that' ; s interesting also that you said that, you know, that the girls would go out kind of on the town to eat different things. What was the food scene like in Dallas during the nineties? |00:12:34| Phinyawatana We went to a lot of times Richardson off of Main and Greenville, which is still there, and to see how much it has developed and changed has been really fun. I mean, the pho place that we went to all the time is no longer there and I' ; m so sad. But it turned into, I think a Pakistani barbecue place now which I' ; ve never been. So I have seen a lot of turnover of the all the different restaurants that used to be there. The Taiwanese cafe is still there. I haven' ; t been in a long time. There' ; s a lot more Boba places now. Our First Chinese Barbecue is still there and there used to be a dim sum place that was right there, Maxim. That' ; s no longer there. I' ; m super sad. And the changeover, I would have to say more than 50% of the original OG restaurants are still there. Genroku. I think Caravelle was there. I never really went there. But I remember that they have always been there. Trying to think...There was like a Tapioca cafe as well that' ; s still there. And the supermarket that was there has changed names, but still, I' ; m so glad that we still always have them. |00:13:56| Brody So what did you do after high school? |00:13:58| Phinyawatana After high school, I went to school up in Boston at Babson College to explore the business side of the world for Entrepreneur Studies and Marketing. And even during that time, wow, imagine that is the melting pot, Boston, definitely for sure for culture and food. And I definitely got to explore a lot more than just Asian cuisine there. Wow. Middle Eastern. Got to explore Brazilian. More Japanese restaurants up there in addition to their Chinatown there, which is amazing. Very similar to the ones that we have in Hong Kong. And also, I' ; m trying to think. Korean food. I was exposed to Korean food there. |00:14:48| Brody Was there much Korean food in Dallas at that time? |00:14:50| Phinyawatana I don' ; t think so. Oh no. I take that back. I mean, there was Korea House, right? Down on Harry Hines and Royal. So there was a smaller- probably one fifth of what we have now in 2022 back in 1994, 95, 96. And I remember we did get to go to Korea House and even at that time there was probably three Thai restaurants that I used to frequent, which was Royal Thai, Chow Thai in Addison. That was more towards the end in 1996, and there was one on Lower Greenville. Oh, my goodness. Thai Soon. Yes. Which is now up in Addison at the moment. So not a lot of Thai restaurants even back in the day. |00:15:43| Brody So you studied entrepreneurship. So did you kind of have that in your mind as a path you wanted to follow all along? |00:15:51| Phinyawatana The thing with that is I did not know what I wanted to do. And I said, you know what, let me just get a business degree because whatever else I decide to do, I think that would be a great basics to have. And they had this amazing program, which they still have today, where it' ; s called FME- Freshman Management experience, where you actually start a business with other freshmen. And you pick your CEO out of the class, your head of operations, your CFO, your HR person, and we all got to decide which department we want to be in and learn that almost in real life and manage money for real to see if it was even a profitable business. The business that we did was a candy store on campus that did delivery. So we would take orders and we would deliver it to the door. And also a side business was to create care packages so that our other target market would be parents. Definitely in the freshman class to see, you know, they would support our business and buy care packages for their kids and that we get we would get to deliver them. So that was really fun. |00:17:09| Brody How did that business do? |00:17:10| Phinyawatana I think we made a little money. Nothing compared to what the businesses are doing now. I mean, the kids going in and the stories that I hear, they are creating businesses that are app related or much more futuristic than what we did back in the day. So it' ; s it' ; s been amazing. |00:17:31| Brody That' ; s sounds like a really interesting program. So then how did you end up back in Dallas? |00:17:37| Phinyawatana I ended up back in Dallas after 9/11. So during that time, so I graduated in the class of 2000, stayed in Boston for about a year and a half and moved back because that was during the dot com fizzle. I think they use...or the dot com burst. But I was in marketing and did email marketing CRM for B2B businesses mostly. And actually some B2C like I did accounts like RadioShack, Pfizer. You know, those banner ads that we have today? We were like the first few people who were doing them, costs per clicks and all those fancy words and email marketing before it was spam. And during that time, I was a really hard worker. I was constantly getting not a raise, but like a new title and I wasn' ; t able to afford my apartment anymore in Boston. It was not cheap to live in Boston at the time. And I think my first paycheck was either a 24K, a 27K coming out of college, and that was just not enough. And by the time I said, " ; You know, I' ; m ready to leave." ; They said, " ; How much do you need?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Well, that' ; s probably a little bit too late at this point." ; And at that time, after 9/11, my dad, my entire family had moved over here right when I was graduating from Hockaday in 1996. But then I moved away. So my dad had this- was working for a food delivery business. Again all around food all the time, apparently you know, it just was meant to be somehow, some way. And the company that he worked for was owned by American Airlines. After 9/11, that went bankrupt. And he had all these clients in his hands and all these restaurants. And he said, " ; Hey, would you mind or would you be interested in moving back to Dallas? Help me start this business. Because I just need somebody to help me run the operations, create a business." ; Because he thinks he definitely has something and he is very entrepreneur himself. And I said, " ; You know what? That sounds like fun, but I' ; m only going to do it for two years while I figure out what I really want to do with my life. And I' ; ll go from there." ; And he said, " ; Deal." ; So I packed my entire Volkswagen Golf with my puppy dog. My mom flew up and we drove across country together over with everything that I had. And I started the business and I said that was probably one of my best experience starting that business. Because I really did everything from beginning. Went to downtown Dallas to get my ID' ; s, went to the Comptroller to figure out how to do my taxes, create a new corporation. But with that, we had a really, really fun business going on. I was in and out. Not only was I taking orders in the morning, I was also once all the orders were in, we did a lot of corporate offices. So I would go out and do deliveries as well. Because you can make some extra tips. And I would be in and out of chain restaurants mostly at the time, whether it be a Chili' ; s, a Black Eyed Peas, The Good Eats of the world, sandwich places. And I would get to see the back house, and it was just really fun to see them have a business even before the doors opened, right? All these catering businesses. And it was just fun to be in that environment. It was fast paced. Not every day was the same. It was around food. I love food. I got to try the food and I said at that same time, I didn' ; t know anyone here anymore. Most of my friends were in the boarding department. They either went home or they also moved away for college and stayed in those towns. East coast, West coast. And my brother was here and he was working at a Thai restaurant. So I said, " ; You know, I really miss my Thai community, so. Let me just go work there for fun." ; And at the same time, I' ; ve always loved to bake. During college again, I was that either apartment or the dorm room that was always cooking something or ordering food and feeding people was really like what I loved. And during that time, I had like a big fetish with Martha Stewart and then the Food Network. And baking. And I was baking so much, exploring the whole French cuisine side of how to make things, because they say, if you know how to make French, you know how to make everything. Exploring all the food cultures there. So when I came back, I said, " ; I maybe one day would like to open a dessert bar or some type of bakery." ; So I said I wanted to go to culinary school so I can learn how to use those mass production, how to do batching. So I went to Dallas College culinary school, downtown at the same time, working my food delivery business and waitressing in a restaurant so I could make new friends. What else was there? Oh and, singing in a band at that same restaurant. Because we just love karaoke. Thai people- we love to sing and I love to sing. Apparently, I was good. So when the local cover band heard me sing in a karaoke night, they said, " ; Hey, we' ; re looking for a female vocal to join our band. And we actually have, you know, Friday and Saturday nights there that we have a pop up. Would you like to join?" ; And I said, " ; Oh my God. That would be so much fun." ; So that' ; s what I was doing for about two years. Then the opportunity to open a restaurant came up and I' ; ll stop there. See if you have any other questions. |00:23:36| Brody What was the band called? |00:23:37| Phinyawatana Oh, the band. They' ; re called " ; The Renditions." ; And they' ; re still around. They' ; re amazing. And they really fostered my love for the community. And we even got to travel to Austin and Houston to sing at like weddings or special events at other Thai restaurants or even at the Temple. I remember it was a great time. And we got to eat at all these places. So it was awesome. |00:24:03| Brody It sounds like a lot of fun. What was the restaurant? |00:24:05| Phinyawatana The restaurant was called Thai Spice. It was a sister restaurant to Royal Thai in Addison at the time. |00:24:16| Brody So you' ; re doing all this stuff. The music, the delivery, the school. Tell me, what did you get out of the, doing the culinary school, taking the classes? |00:24:29| Phinyawatana I would say a lot of probably confidence and understanding of...I think one side that is really important is safety and sanitation so that they really ingrain that into you. The professors or the chefs there are amazing. Then a lot of them are still there, so I get to see them and support them through my business and just being around the environment of...because I' ; d never worked in a commercial kitchen before. I didn' ; t come up the corporate side, whether it' ; s the front of house or the back of house. And that was probably my only experience of using large scale ovens and scales for real and bulk ordering, batching of recipes, how to correct recipes. And meeting a lot of other people who also love to feed people was amazing as well. And forming that bond. And they were young. I mean the community college, you can start in the culinary business right after high school. And we would have everyone from 16 or 18 years old all the way up to a 70 year old who is just going to these classes at night for fun. Or some people who are looking at it as a second career, they' ; re like, " ; I' ; m so tired of being a lawyer. I' ; m tired of the day to day job and I want to open my own bakery." ; And they were all there and it was really fun to be around that energy. |00:25:58| Brody Did that help you with your next steps? |00:26:01| Phinyawatana I believe it did, because while I was going to culinary school and doing all these things, I don' ; t know what happened. Did I do? I don' ; t even know how it happened. So I met my husband at a karaoke night. And, he was working at another Thai restaurant. He' ; s 100% Thai. So he came over here to go to graduate school and while he was going to graduate school, he was also working in a restaurant to be able to pay for his tuition and the cost of living. And we met and we were debating. He was very supportive of my dream. He knew that I loved to bake. And I think one of the reasons why he married me, we like to call it like it was like my chocolate flourless cake that made him say, " ; Hey, you' ; re the person, you' ; re my one." ; And he I guess, saw my talent and said, " ; Hey, if you want to open a dessert coffee bar, like I support that." ; And we were debating or deciding really was we were going to go do that in Thailand because it was also very new and nobody' ; s done that and nor was it done here. But we said, you know what, let' ; s try it here first. So if it doesn' ; t work out here, then we can like pick up our entire life and then move it to Thailand instead of going vice versa. And you know, again, it was all meant to be. The restaurant component came about because I think my business background kicked in. And I said, " ; You know, it doesn' ; t make sense just to do a dessert bar." ; Again, this was, what? 2004 as we were opening this restaurant. The idea probably came around 2003. We were debating on what the concept was going to be. And it makes so much more sense to be able to feed somebody from beginning to end, right? Let' ; s get food in their system. Then they can have dessert. Oh, there is not a Thai restaurant here in Dallas that offers a complete package like other American restaurants, New American, French, Italian, where you can have a cocktail, you can have a beautiful wine list to be paired with your dining experience with your entrees. And then be able to move on and have a beautiful cup of cappuccino with your dessert and have a complete experience in a Thai environment or Asian restaurant, let alone. So we decided like, let' ; s create an Asian fusion cafe and dessert bar. We called it " ; Asian Mint." ; We love the herb mint because it can be one of those herbs that are in a Thai dish, whether it be a salad or any particular dish. And it can also is always a garnish on a dessert plate. I mean, now today even we have micro mint, we see it less often. But back in the day, there was a mint on every single dessert plate. We wanted something green and we wanted a green restaurant. And we said, " ; How can we differentiate our mint to make sure that people would know it was Asian. Or Thai. And it was not a. Mexican place or an Italian restaurant? Or an American restaurant." ; So let' ; s put the word Asian in front of it. So we called it Asian Mint. People still understand that. And also at the time, we did not label ourself as a Thai restaurant. We called ourselves Asian Fusion. We were one of the first. And at that time, my whole idea was Thai food yet at that time was not well known. If people thought of Asian food, it would always be Chinese takeout. So I said, " ; Let' ; s create an Asian fusion restaurant where we would have a couple of Chinese dishes with our own spin on it, whether be Thai or something that' ; s a little bit more familiar in flavor." ; We would have a couple of Vietnamese dishes, some Japanese dishes, but the majority of it was Thai. So let' ; s say if you wanted to come to our restaurant and you knew nothing about Pad Thai or Thai fried rice or Pad See Ew or Pad Kee Mow, you would most likely know about Orange Chicken, Mongolian Beef, Lo Mein, Teriyaki Chicken, some eggrolls, some summer rolls. And we' ; re going to put that on our menu, with our little spin, some Kung Pao Chicken. And that would get you in the door. Once I got you in the door, I would then introduce you to another flavor and say. " ; Hey. Have you tried Pad Thai? Have you tried... What is a cashew chicken? That was more of a Thai flavor profile? Have you tried our Thai fried rice?" ; And just through that experience, people were trying more Thai flavors and Thai dishes. Not knowingly. Thinking it was just, you know, a variation of a Chinese dish. And they' ; d be like, " ; Wow, why is your restaurant taste so much fresher? It' ; s not over soyed. It' ; s not over fried." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Well, that' ; s really the basis of Thai cooking and Thai cuisine. We don' ; t over season a lot of our dishes to mask you know, the ingredients. We were all about the ingredients were the star, the fresh flavors, the vegetables that go in it, the fresh noodles. And we layer it with just a little bit of soy and a little bit of tamarind sauce or the Pad Thai sauce that we created. And with that, people became more interested in knowing a different type of cuisine. And I feel very proud to be able to have them experience something different. And it also attracted a lot of our clientele who are very well-educated and well-traveled. Because if some of those came in, they were like, " ; Wait, you are not a Chinese restaurant. Why are you called Asian Fusion? You' ; re a Thai, aren' ; t you? These are Thai flavors." ; I' ; m like. " ; Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Check all the boxes." ; You' ; re so like, you know, it was such an interesting way to share that experience. And we were also named one of the top ten best new restaurants of that year, which was a big pat on the back and put us on the map. We went from serving probably forty guests, and when that Guide came out, that Friday, we were serving 250 people. So I was calling in all my family members. My mom, my aunt, everyone came in to help cause, you know, it was that first impression. You know, we need to be able to service them. Get them in the door, get food on their table, but also service them and have them experience that Thai hospitality. And it just only takes one time, right, to make sure that they come back. And with that, I think we' ; ve done a great job to be able to portray the Thai hospitality, the Thai flavor profiles, in addition to just being able to meld all the flavors that I grew up with. You know, I know the Texas flavor profile. I know the Thai profile. What are the two commonalities that come together that make people love our cuisine and be able to put that on a plate and share it with the world and make it their favorite comfort food. |00:33:26| Brody It' ; s really interesting. It sounds like you' ; re saying that the choices that you made were very deliberate in order to get people in the door and then expand their concept of what Asian food is and expand their palates, perhaps. Is that accurate? |00:33:44| Phinyawatana That sounds about right. I think that business, that business education came into play here big time. You know, I did my market research. I explored and having been in that, been in and out of a lot of the other restaurants, right? The big chains, and P.F. Chang was around, is around. Pei Wei barely started. And just understanding what people were ordering, right? Like now we have data out of the wazoo, where back in the day, it was like personal experience. I had to pick up and understand, okay, what are all the orders that I was taking on a daily basis? You know, what are people ordering from Chili' ; s? What were people ordering from Black Eyed Pea or what are people ordering from P.F. Chang? And all these different flavor profiles. You know, if they were going to order from a Thai restaurant, what would they order? And with that, came about, you know, what are all the things that I wanted to put on the menu? Because I need to be able to service my clientele based on what they' ; re going to be asking for. So definitely my marketing and my entrepreneur studies came into play big time. |00:34:54| Brody Did you see yourself as a " ; mom and pop" ; or did you think of yourself as a different type of restaurant all along? |00:35:01| Phinyawatana I even still call myself a " ; mom and pop" ; with four locations going on five. People say like, " ; You' ; re not. You' ; re a chain now." ; And I' ; m like, " ; No!" ; You know, but I don' ; t want to lose the feel of being the local restaurant. And it was that' ; s just an interesting question because when we opened right after a year, I had some business men literally come in their business suits asking to have a meeting with me. I was 27 at the time when I opened the restaurant. And they came in and said, " ; Nikky, this is such an amazing concept. There' ; s nothing out there like this. We love your cuisine. We want to be able to open an Asian Mint everywhere." ; And I' ; m like, " ; What?" ; Like that, just, I didn' ; t quite comprehend. Like, but it did implant in my brain of like the potential of what I had created. My marketing brain, if you' ; re asking me that question, is when I was creating the name, the logo, the colors and anything like that, I definitely was thinking like, " ; Okay, if I had to duplicate this a couple of more times, how can I make it simple?" ; I mean, down to the point, to the logo of it being white and green, I' ; m like, " ; Okay, when I have to print this logo on anything, it' ; s one color. It' ; s a lot cheaper than having it multicolor. And let' ; s make sure we find a font that is accessible, readily accessible to anyone who picks it up, graphically. Had to be...My husband has a graphic and design background. So when we were thinking about all of this, we also wanted to make sure that it was simple enough for people to understand but to be duplicated. And I think that was probably something that those businessmen saw. So I did probably have in the back of my mind and said, " ; You know what? Maybe we could have 100 Asian Mints one day." ; So let' ; s, let' ; s keep that, you know, and continue to move forward and be innovative and be creative and have fun, but also make sure that the business aspect of it also makes sense. Whether from a marketing perspective, a financial, all of the above. Being able to duplicate it. |00:37:24| Brody That' ; s really interesting. What would you say the spirit of a " ; mom and pop" ; Asian restaurant is? |00:37:33| Phinyawatana The spirit of a " ; mom and pop" ; Asian restaurant is, I think, the hospitality, hospitable part of it. Friendly. You come in and you don' ; t feel like it has a corporate feel. And that was something that I also learned, because when I started going to meet a lot of these corporate restaurant people, I guess, I wanted to educate myself a lot more like even the Brinkers of the world had these classes at SMU, and I wanted to go and figure out you know, how do they do it? Right. But when when I went into those classes, the only thing that Mr. Brinker was talking about in the classes and the professors was you know, the hospitality side of it. There' ; s the business side, but how are they, as a corporate restaurant chain, continuing to have that local " ; mom and pop" ; feel? It' ; s like the corporates are always trying to get the " ; mom and pop" ; feel and the " ; mom and pops" ; are like trying to figure out how to do the corporate. So it' ; s a blend of the two that I believe makes us very successful. We do have systems and processes in place that a lot of " ; mom and pop" ; restaurants don' ; t have. But we think it' ; s really important because with training and educating and creating consistency which is one of our main values to be able to make sure that if you went to Asian Mint one, two, three and four, you' ; re getting the same experience, the same flavors, and the same overall consumer value. |00:39:14| Brody So you mentioned earlier that you' ; re- definitely the first restaurant- you were kind of a local favorite, local restaurant. Who were your customers and what did that feel like? How did it become a local favorite? |00:39:28| Phinyawatana The location of our first location is right off of 635 and 75, so it' ; s the High Five intersection. Not in the most beautiful shopping center. We' ; re next to an Office Depot that is fairly a rundown shopping center that didn' ; t have a lot of, or actually doesn' ; t have any local restaurants there at all. We were surrounded by a couple of chain restaurants. Currently, they have, we have, you know, a Chipotle, we have a Boston Market, we have a 7-Eleven, we have a Which Wich, a pizza place, and Mattito' ; s, Dickies at the time. So we were surrounded by chain restaurants there. We probably was the only Asian restaurant and local restaurant in that center. So logistically we attracted unknowingly a lot of the people from the hospital and also TI, Texas Instruments campus was just down the street and I didn' ; t know this but they have a very, very big international employment pool. So we were attracting, again, very well traveled international background that understood our flavors and we were close. So we were serving executives, TI tech people, who are still now today super loyal. And, you know, let' ; s say if it was the tech engineer that came in for lunch, they would fall in love and they would bring their wife and their kids to the restaurant on, you know, during dinnertime or during the weekend. And it kind of just grew from there. And also the community that or the households that are around our restaurant, also very well traveled, well-educated. There' ; s a big Jewish base there as well who love Asian cuisine, Chinese in particular. And we attracted probably a ten, fifteen mile radius and we were probably one of the closest Asian restaurants down from the Richardson Chinatown that people could explore. |00:41:48| Brody You talked about hospitality. What is your philosophy of, behind hospitality? |00:41:54| Phinyawatana Hospitality is what Thailand is known as one of the most hospitable country in the world. And I think that was definitely ingrained in me. You know, when somebody would come over to your house, the first thing you would ask is, you know, " ; Can I get you a glass of water? What can I get you to drink? Have you eaten yet? Let me feed you." ; Even before we did anything else. And I found this commonality also in the Jewish community. You know, if it was anyone coming to your house, the first thing they going to make you do is eat, right? We feed you. We make sure you' ; re comfortable before we would, you know, have any conversations or even conduct anything. And, you know, we would normally be hanging out in the kitchen. So hospitality to me is definitely feeding that person' ; s soul. Feeding that person' ; s way beyond just their stomach. But making them comfortable. Making them feel seen. Making them feel at home. And then being able to feed them one of their favorite comfort foods so that they can go out in the world and make a difference in their own way. |00:42:57| Brody That' ; s really nice. Going back to the nuts and bolts of starting that first business. You mentioned the location being there near the High Five and TI and the hospital. Did you choose that location on purpose or... |00:43:13| Phinyawatana That location was a sushi restaurant that I had a friend working there who was a sushi chef. And I don' ; t know how the conversation went, but basically he was telling me that if you' ; re interested in opening a restaurant, this is a great location and the owner might be interested in selling. He was kind of done. He was more in the telephone business. He was opening this for fun. And it wasn' ; t so fun for him anymore. So we went in and started talking to him and he' ; s like, " ; Yeah, you know what? If it' ; s at a good price point, then we would be interested in selling." ; That was probably one of the main reasons as well why we have sushi at that particular location because when we opened, I' ; m like, " ; Well, what if people come in wanting sushi?" ; So we' ; re like, " ; Well, let' ; s make sure we serve sushi." ; So with that, I did some market research by going to all of the local chains around there. I would go and sit at lunchtime and dinner time at the bar. Let' ; s say if it was Black Eyed Pea at the time and just go sit there and watch people come in and out, start counting the number of people coming in and out, start talking to the people who came in. And one. Of my favorite questions I was asking was " ; Do you know Thai food?" ; And they' ; d be like, " ; What?" ; You know, like. Or if somebody did and like, " ; Where do you normally have Thai food?" ; And it would be somewhere fairly far from where they are there. So they didn' ; t have access. So I know, okay, let' ; s say there was like 300 or 300 people that came in for lunch at that BlackEyed Pea every single day. And I said, " ; Okay, there' ; s like five chains around here. If let' ; s say we get ten, twenty people from each chain and we serve 100 people, I think we should be able to pay rent, right?" ; At a price point of $10 to $15 a person, did the multiplication. If we can survive during lunch time, we should be able to survive here at this particular location. So that' ; s kind of how I did my market research, which I highly recommend even till today. With all the data out there, I think being on the ground, talking to people and getting a feel of the energy around there, which I have a knack for. I love going in and using my gut feeling to understand the, the energy around the center, around the space, around the people that come in, the energy that' ; s created. It' ; s really important when you' ; re doing I believe a hospitality business. And in particular a food service business. |00:45:43| Brody Have you done that for all the locations? |00:45:44| Phinyawatana I kind of have, actually. |00:45:47| Brody Tell me about the other locations. |00:45:51| Phinyawatana So we opened Forest Lane in 2004. At the end of 2004. I had an inkling to open another one and my goal with the second one was how can I open another restaurant with systems and processes enough where I did not have to be there as much? I wanted to prove to myself. This first one still has to be babysat every day. And so I said, " ; Let me try to open another location." ; And funny enough, the second location was actually was supposed to be our first location. So I met an amazing gentleman who' ; s no longer here, Marcello Rosen. And I, and I think of him very, very often as my first mentor. Because when I was trying to find a location, I was driving around everywhere and I was going into all these neighborhoods. And we went to the Shops of Highland Park and there was this small Thai restaurant there that turned over more than five times. And there was a space that was available and his name was on there and I literally sat down on a bench and I don' ; t know what got into me. And I called him and he picked up. And when I called him, I told him like " ; Hey, my name is. Nikky. I' ; m looking for a space to open a restaurant." ; I think he totally recognized I was definitely in my twenties, probably did not sound that mature or sophisticated at all, but for some reason we sat and talked for over an hour and he said, " ; Nikky, I love your spirit. You are very entrepreneurial. You sound like an amazing person. Let me help you. You don' ; t want this location to be your first location. Let' ; s go find another location with, with me. Let' ; s go find something." ; So he was a realtor, but he was representing that center. And I said, " ; Okay, that sounds interesting. I really don' ; t know what that means." ; But we met and I told him about this other location. And he, I guess, did his research and he said, " ; You know. This looks like a good, good location. Are you sure that he was really ready to sell and not this?" ; And he kind of guided me through on how selling of a business process happens. He started teaching me a little bit more of like, " ; Okay, make sure your numbers are right. You know, you' ; re going to have to give away your life when you sign these leases, right? You know, like you have nothing. You probably can' ; t get a bank loan. The landlord doesn' ; t know you, so you' ; re going to have to sign your life away. And by the way, this is how much money you probably need to have and figure out how much money you' ; re going to need to turn this place over into the type of restaurant that you want." ; So that was a lot, a lot of homework that I had with my husband. Other than just a fun side, which I love, you know? Coming up with the name and the logo and the colors, there' ; s like a whole nother side, right? My dream of opening a dessert place and serving sweets to people was not as simple as you could think and I and I had to write a business plan. I did learn how to write a business plan in college. So that was like the starting point. And I recommend anybody who' ; s starting a business to please write a business plan. It might change, it might steer away, but all the key points of to the why you are opening this business is on that piece of paper and it should guide you. As it should guide you. And the financial side is extremely, extremely important. So yes, second location. Four years after...Oh, my God. This is such a funny story. I was looking at that location. This was the time when a Thai restaurant, I think, was kind of not doing so well anymore. And I had a regular customer. I was always in the restaurant talking to everyone all the time. So I was talking to a customer. I still remember that day? And he' ; s like, " ; You, Nikky, come here. You need to open one in Highland Park." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Funny. I was going to open in Highland Park, and this was the spot I was thinking about." ; And he' ; s like, " ; What? That landlord is my, is my neighbor." ; And okay, now I remember. At that time, that Thai restaurant, that whatever restaurant that was there had already closed and they left a bad taste in the landlord' ; s mouth. So when I went looking at that center, the landlord' ; s representative said, " ; We' ; re never opening a Thai restaurant or an Asian restaurant in my strip ever again." ; That' ; s what they said. So when I was talking to this gentleman, he said, " ; That' ; s ridiculous. I am going to talk to my neighbor right now. And expect a call." ; So I think it was two days later, their representative called me back and said, " ; Hey, we' ; re interested in having you in our center." ; Right? I was like, you know, if it was meant to be, it was meant to be. And we started negotiating and talking. And it was a smaller space. And I think also the landlord at the time, he was like a meat and potatoes guy as well. So it was really interesting to be able to service that community who didn' ; t have a lot of Asian options and they did not want to drive above Northwest Highway over to Richardson or Garland or anywhere to have really, really good Asian cuisine. So that' ; s how the second location opened. It was four years later. So this was around 2008. I was also pregnant at the time after I signed my lease. So I like to tell people for me, my luck comes in pairs. No matter what I' ; m doing, it just happens to be like two big life changing events will be happening at the same time, and I just learned to accept that. So I found out that I was pregnant. So I literally was at the restaurant doing that build out while I was pregnant throughout the whole time. And even when we were written up in the Guide, I had a picture of me probably seven months pregnant, pretty big on the cover of the Guide. And I just, you know, remember that dress that I had to find and that pose. And I was like, you know, it was, it was amazing. I had my son in 2009, early 2009. And it was a great experience. But that also confirmed the whole point of me not definitely being able to be in the restaurant 24/7. Not only can I be in one, I can' ; t be in two because I now need to put my mother hat on and become a mom and have this baby and explore that, that life of mine. So, yeah. |00:52:57| Brody So. A lot of times people who I' ; m talking to about restaurants talk about this struggle to if you have a, you have your restaurant, right, your " ; mom and pop." ; That is the same thing that you' ; re talking about that the wanting to be there all the time or needing to be there all the time, that control piece of it. And for many people, it seems like it' ; s really difficult to let that go for worry about the product or the service or whatever. How, obviously it was partly by necessity because you had a baby, but, you know, how did you think about that differently? It just, it seems like you were approaching it from the beginning of not wanting to babysit the second restaurant. |00:53:44| Phinyawatana Mm hmm. |00:53:44| Brody So what was different for you in your way of thinking about that? |00:53:53| Phinyawatana That is...This just brought me into another story that I thought of. So, I don' ; t know if it' ; s because I' ; m more of a visionary or just very daring, but when I was waitressing at Royal Spice and while I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, right, I was going to school, culinary school, waiting tables. And at that time, I really didn' ; t know what I wanted to do. So before I even started looking at restaurants, I was asking my super regulars and said, " ; Hey, you know, I' ; m like in my I think I was like 25 or something like that. And it was like, what should I do with my life, you know? Like, what should I do? This is what I' ; m going for." ; And there was this one customer of mine. I remember to this day and I tell this story sometimes very differently. Is he said, " ; Nikky. Whatever you do, do not open a restaurant." ; And I said, " ; Okay," ; but like a light bulb went off. And I said, " ; You know what? If he says it, this is the hardest thing to do, I' ; m going to start there and then work myself backwards so I can say at least I' ; ve done something I haven' ; t done." ; And also at the time I remember till this day my goal is to retire on a beach with a B& ; B in Thailand and service people. So at the end of the day, I said, " ; If I open a restaurant, at least I would learn how to run a restaurant, I would learn how to serve food, I would learn how the hospitality business is. And I could take that knowledge whether it fails or not to my year end goal or end of the life retirement of being on the beach and being able to do that." ; Eight years later, here we are still doing it, still loving it, and still growing it. But because of that conversation, again, somebody said, if you do open a restaurant, you are going to basically live in that restaurant 24/7 which was the case. For the first five years, I was there 20 something hours a day. I literally rented an apartment across the street and we were open from ten or eleven o' ; clock to like two in the morning, just testing out the market. And I would drag myself home or across the street, sleep for three hours, come back, start it all over again just to figure out, you know, how does this really happen? So I think I was trying to again debunk the idea of a restaurant owner has to be there 24/7 or control freak in a way. And I went out and about and started again studying how the corporate people do it, right? How do how do they do it? Because their people are not there 24/7. And I said, " ; Let' ; s, let me try to do that." ; So that' ; s how the second location came about. But then when I was pregnant, I was like, " ; Well, I definitely am not going to be here. I have an expiration date of March 12. I' ; m going to have this baby around that time, so let' ; s make sure everything gets set and settled before I have to probably leave for three months and have this baby." ; So yeah, I had promoted a couple of my people in the restaurant who was interested in learning the business side of it, not just serving and become the manager of the store. And she took it very seriously as it was her own place and I' ; ve also learned that I was very blessed to be able to create jobs for people, to be able to pay them well so that they can go and take care of their family. And it is a blessing to be able to do that, to create jobs in doing something that I love, that they can love to feed people and know that they' ; re making a difference in this world, not just for their family. So I take that very seriously. So as we grow, every restaurant, it is all about growth, not from a financial perspective, but really from building people within our business to for them to be able to grow, to have a growth plan, to be able to move up in the world and have a different life in the job that they love doing. |00:58:00| Brody How do you set that tone? |00:58:03| Phinyawatana I have to do it. And it took a very, very long time. It took probably having two kids and four restaurants to the point like, " ; Okay, guys. If you don' ; t kick me out. You can' ; t move up." ; And I say this all the time and I' ; ve learned this, that you have to create a succession plan. I, I hired a business coach, life coach, business coach all together and she helped me talk through my understanding of, like, there is a world out there where you don' ; t have to be involved or be in the restaurant 24/7. It can still run. You know, you just need to put these systems and processes in place. You need to hire the right people. You need to train them. You need to create the love, the values, the mission. All of these things that I never, ever learned because I didn' ; t go through the corporate world like everyone else did. So I learned it in real life with my own money and created I guess, you know, my own MBA in a way of how to be very entrepreneur and open multiple businesses. And I think one of the most, I guess a story again, is when I was building up my right hand girl, Gee who' ; s been with me for over 15 years, she started off as a bus girl and moved her way all the way up to now, my COO. And I said, " ; Hey, I' ; m in the CFO role right now, or CMO, whichever one I wanted to be that day. Sometimes it' ; s more like cleaner. But in two years we need to find somebody to fit in your role. And you need to fit in my shoes so that you can push me out and step into my shoes. Right?" ; And that kind of goes along. So everybody behind her, we need to find that next person. To become the Gee and then Gee becomes the next Nikky. And just kind of we all just kind of move up all together. And the more locations we have, the more openings of these managerial positions we have so we can constantly, if they are interested in the path and not just like, okay, we hire a lot of either high school students or college kids who are just again, like when we started off, me and my husband, is to have a living wage to be able to pay for our tuition. But to actually have it as a career path. It' ; s not just about serving or cooking. There are multiple different roles in a restaurant like Accounting, Finances, HR, Marketing. Back in the day, people who went in the restaurant business just didn' ; t see that. As like either you' ; re a server or you' ; re a cook. You know, pick one. But there are so much more today that we have been able to create in our organization and being able to have them figure out okay, maybe you actually love social media. How can you do it in our restaurant. You love taking care of people. Let' ; s figure out how you can become the best HR and scheduling. You love finance and accounting. You know, good for you because that' ; s not me. Let' ; s have you make sure that you know how to, you know, balance a balance sheet and balance out the drawer every night. So it' ; s been really, really fun and setting the tone again. It' ; s all about letting them know that there are many, many pathways within our restaurant concept. |01:01:21| Brody So 2004, 2008, you open locations. When was the next period of growth? |01:01:26| Phinyawatana The next period of growth was after I believe I had my second and only real child. So I call my restaurants and my children as well. So I have four restaurants, so four kid restaurant kids and I have two real kids, Knox and Sky, currently thirteen and eight. So after I had Knox, I was trying to figure out. Am I stay at home mom? Am I the mom who' ; s, you know, a part of the PTA? And all that. And I tried that for for a good year or two. And I realized, like, I am not that mom. And I had mom guilt every single day. Even when I first had my kid, I was having mom guilt when I was not at work. And I was having no- I was having mom guilt when I was at work. And I was having work guilt when I was at home with my kid. And that was a constant struggle and still is today. So it' ; s a work in progress. So after I had my second child. 2013, she was born at the end of the year, I found my business coach. And I told her, I am at a place where I have enough staff who are doing an amazing job that I can go on and be a mom 100% of the time. Or maybe I go figure out something else to do because I still want to help the world in one way or another. My goal now, as a mom with two real kids, is how can I leave this world in a better place than when I came into the world and how I found it? So do I go work in nonprofits? How can I use my talent? And being around the business coach and other entrepreneurial women in this community called E-Women Network, I realize- or they were making me realize- that, Nicky, you have a platform and I' ; m like, " ; What is that?" ; They' ; re like " ; Your restaurant is a platform. The community you created around these restaurants is a platform. You can do so many more things than just a restaurant around what you' ; re doing." ; And I' ; m like, " ; What do you mean?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Do you love to teach? Oh yeah, I teach cooking classes." ; I' ; ve been doing that since 2000.... I don' ; t know when couple of years in because people were interested, right? So I was doing cooking classes, I was teaching people, I was out catering. I was doing all these other things. Like what? Yeah, there' ; s so many more you can educate people about what you' ; re doing. You have been all your life talking to people all day long. You just didn' ; t realize like there are other mediums that you can do this in, whether it be a podcast or how do you do it on social media. At the time, being on the web, getting on a network like there' ; s so many more options. And that came about of like, okay, well, I have other staff members who want to open a business or open a restaurant and, you know, let' ; s do it a couple more times. And so that came number three, I believe. I' ; m going to get my numbers wrong. 2004, 2000, eight. Nine. So it had to be after 2013, maybe I did my third and fourth. I have to go back and look at that. So the Inwood location... Inwood and Lovers currently, I believe is seven or eight. Yes, it was a year before I had Sky. Maybe about the same time again. The miracles happen in twos, right? And then also at that time, the second, the third location took a really long time to get that location- solidify a deal and build it out. It was a really, really old building. Multilevel. Really interesting. Took a really long time to build. Took a really long time to get the deal done. But I was getting antsy. Oh, I know. It had to be in 2016. So it was after I had my girl. Because at that same time it was like, " ; Do we open Inwood or do we expand our first location?" ; And because the deal was taking so long, I was like, well, " ; Let' ; s explore this other one, because it looks like Inwood' ; s not going to happen." ; And of course, it happened. And then the opportunity to be able to expand also happened. So we were expanding our first location, and we were opening our third location around the same time. And then a year and a half later, I think I did the fourth location, a whole brand new concept, which was a big fail, a big lesson. A really expensive MBA. And we' ; re now currently working on a fifth. So, yeah, there' ; s many, many iterations of how this story goes. So, yes, third location, second kid, expansion, and then fourth. |01:06:03| Brody What was the fourth location? |01:06:05| Phinyawatana The fourth location was on Campbell, near 75 on the west side in Richardson. And I think that was 2017. Because we did a whole year of failure 2000...Maybe 2018. A whole year failure. And we turned it into an Asian Mint at the end of 2019 in October. And then COVID happened. So, yes. |01:06:33| Brody What was the year of failure? What was...What happened? |01:06:35| Phinyawatana Had that fun year also basically oops, in 2017. I am a big visionary and an innovator and I said, " ; I want to open a restaurant that was touchless, serviceless-ish, and all computerized, cashless, even preferred. So I was coming up with kind of like a cross between a Chipotle meets...there was another concept up in DC that I was keeping an eye on. I can' ; t remember the name because they also did not work out and, but basically an easier way, again, thinking of a concept that might be easier to duplicate, maybe less staff more- what' ; s the word? Not technology driven. Right. So we would have a POS system at the front where a customer would order themselves, get a number, go sit down. The foods get served. So his contactless, cashless. No server needed in a bowl concept. They had the bowl concepts were big at that time. But I didn' ; t realize how strong my brand was. Asian Mint. So this was this concept was called " ; EnjoyMint," ; a wordplay on " ; enjoyment." ; And, and it was a fairly big location. We took over an existing Asia concept that came in from Colorado that' ; s no longer there. And when my loyal fans of, let' ; s say ten plus years came over because, " ; Oh my God, this is so exciting. I have an Asian Mint in my neighborhood." ; They would come in and be like, " ; Wait, what is this? I don' ; t understand. What? I have to serve myself? What is this? This is not the same. Do you have that particular dish at that restaurant?" ; And we did. And we simplified the menu and they sat down and enjoyed it and they said, " ; This is good. Nikky. I mean, you know. It, it' ; s great. But, man, I wish I had my own Asian Mint in my neighborhood." ; And I said, " ; You know, but this is like, very cool." ; And they' ; re like, " ; Yeah, it' ; s very cool." ; So I kept trying and trying and trying. Every month I was losing money. But I said, " ; You know what? Let' ; s give this concept a year." ; So we literally should have probably switched it over after three months, six months at most. But I said, " ; Let' ; s try it for a year and if it' ; s still not making money, then we' ; ll switch it to an Asian Mint." ; So we had a backup plan, right? We were stuck in this lease for, you know, ten years plus. So, yeah. It did not work. Came COVID. I think if it was open after COVID. Contactless. Curbside delivery. I mean, this would have been great. But yes. |01:09:39| Brody Ahead of your time. |01:09:40| Phinyawatana Ahead. And I realized that. I realize I' ; m normally two years ahead of my time in terms of innovation. And I think I' ; ve learned to slow down a little bit so...If what is it they call if it' ; s not broken, you know, why are you trying to fix it? So, yes, lesson learned. So our fifth location is still going to be an Asian Mint. And we know what we do well, our staff knows how to how to open a restaurant very easily and seamlessly at this point. So we have a, we have a systems and processes in place. We have the people who love to do it. So we' ; re going to continue on this route until we hit ten, hopefully in the next 5 to 7 years. And we' ; ll see how that goes. |01:10:24| Brody Wow. That' ; s a long term for sure. |01:10:27| Phinyawatana Now we have a long term plan. |01:10:28| Brody So the fifth location, can you say where it is? |01:10:32| Phinyawatana Yes, we will be opening in Addison. Right off of Montfort and Beltline on the southwest corner. It used to be a Cafe Gecko over 25 years, a big, loyal following. My co-tenants, we have Flower Child. We have a Shake Shack, Jeni' ; s Ice Cream, Genroku, Mendocino Farm and a lot of places like a golf place, pilates, nail salon. Everything that would bring amazing foot traffic. So great co-tenants, great location. Not too far for me to be able to still visit and service. And yeah, we' ; re super excited. |01:11:15| Brody That' ; s very exciting. A lot of a lot of growth and I' ; m interested in hearing your thoughts. You talked about your feeling of personal mission and wanting to help the world and leave the world better than you found it and use your platform to do that. How are you doing that? |01:11:34| Phinyawatana So at this time, I have realized that I created a brand for myself, apparently not knowingly. You know, I was listening to Oprah this morning and she said, " ; You know, I don' ; t know what a brand is." ; But after you are servicing people with a mission in mind is to make the world a better place to feed a soul and not just their stomach, and inspiring them through food, through culture, and for me, it' ; s travel. I love to travel. I said, " ; Let me figure out how to how to do that." ; And I said, " ; I can' ; t be at every restaurant anymore." ; At the same time, people are asking me, " ; So how can I still be able to reach everyone and feel like I' ; m doing my part right?" ; So there is the Internet, this thing called the Internet. And now YouTube. And I created my own brand called Chef Nikky where I get to create, share recipes, inspiring life stories of how to be a mom, an entrepreneur, a business owner, a sister, a daughter, my multicultural background, human being of AAPI and showing that there is there is a way and hopefully inspire other women entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs in general of you know if there' ; s a will, there' ; s a way. If you...I believe in giving back into the community. So whenever I have the opportunity to service my community in any way, I do that as well. And through that brand, I have cooking classes, private, private or group. Whether it be Thai cooking experiences, culinary retreats to Thailand, at the moment will be expanding to Southeast Asia and cooking shows on YouTube, which has been so much fun. We call them " ; Thai Takeovers." ; We just started this late November of 2021. Yes. So the concept there is...I hear this all the time when I' ; m in the restaurant or whatnot, is " ; Nikky, Thai food is so hard to make. I have to go buy all these special ingredients. I don' ; t know where to find all this stuff. I can' ; t make Thai food at home." ; And I' ; m like, " ; No, that is not true." ; So I created a sauce line coming out of COVID because I wanted to have people understand it is easy to make Thai food at home. Use a couple of these sauces and you can create Asian flavors very easily, just as if you were making a bowl of spaghetti at home. Instead you' ; re making a bowl of Pad Thai, right? So what this show is all about is I go into other people' ; s homes, into their kitchen. All I take is my sauces and a wok. And what I do is I go through their refrigerator and their pantry and see what they have and talk about some of their favorite dishes, whether it be Thai or not. Some flavor profiles that they love or their family. And we come up with an Asian flavored dish at home under 30 minutes with everything that you already have in your pantry, in your fridge. And it has been so much fun for me because I' ; ve also realized that I' ; m merging cultures through food. So literally, last Friday I was at a house and I found out that she was from the Middle East. She grew up in Israel and she loves Thai food, she loves Indian flavors. And she was like, " ; How are you going to " ; Thai up" ; one of like my favorite Middle Eastern dishes of all time? And I' ; m like, " ; I don' ; t know, let' ; s see." ; And she challenged me. She' ; s like, " ; I have this particular dish. I want to teach you how to make it. And I want to see how you are going to " ; Thai" ; it up." ; So we literally started adding lemongrass, makrut lime leaf. We started adding lime juice, Thai chilies into this beautiful beet soup that she taught me how to make with these...and I can' ; t think of the name at the moment. We said it probably 100 times on the show. Starts with a K, a kibbe, something like that. Yes. With a meat filling. That' ; s made out of a wheat wheat gluten thing that we made. Oh, my God. I' ; m so butchering, butchering this. And it was so yummy. And it' ; s like her comfort food meeting my comfort food. And we were calling it East meets Middle East dish and it was so much fun to create. And that' ; s just one example. I made Thai flavored fish tacos at a house. We have made shrimp pasta dish with fresh pasta with an Italian fusion. We have made oh, a chicken biriyani dish at an Indian house with Thai flavors and my sauces. We have made all the basics as well. Everyone' ; s like, " ; Nikky, please, please teach me how to make green curry. You have to teach me how to make Pad Thai." ; We made the Pad See Ew, we made the Pad Kee Mow. We made the curries. We made our peanut sauce very recently. Two days ago. And it' ; s just been so fun and like a really aha moment. I just like see all these light bulbs going off in all of these minds and all these kitchens that I go into and that is so, so feeding for me. To let them really understand that it is not that hard to create Asian flavors at home. Even our supermarkets today around the corner, your neighborhood, your Tom Thumb and whatnot will have an Asian aisle that is constantly growing. And every time I go in, there' ; s like a new sauce. Oh, my God, finally they have the vermicelli noodles, not just the pad Thai noodles, and now they have the rice paper, and now they have, you know, all these bottled sauces. And it' ; s just so exciting to see them carrying all these ingredients that I used to not be able to get, whether I was bringing them in my suitcase or I had to go to an Asian supermarket myself to go get these particular ingredients. So it' ; s just been so fun to share that knowledge of blending cultures and food and flavor and talking about even you know, their relationship with food. Talking about their travels and how their travels had affected their food. How they plan their trips around food. I' ; m like, " ; You are my people, you know?" ; So it has been so fun for me. Fun for every household that we' ; ve been going into. And absolutely, hopefully also so much fun for everybody who' ; s watching it on our YouTube channel. |01:18:36| Brody Sounds like a lot of fun and really delicious mash ups. That reminds me and something that' ; s come up in a lot of these conversations is the question of authenticity. Right? What are your thoughts around that? I know it' ; s a complicated, a complicated concept. |01:18:56| Phinyawatana Authenticity. Whenever I have to explain authenticity Thai flavors to people, I like to do this analogy with barbecue, because I' ; m from Texas as well. And Texans understand barbecue. So think of this. Is Texas barbecue the same as Kansas barbecue? Is it the same as Florida barbecue? Is it the same barbecue even from Austin to Dallas? Right? So when you' ; re thinking of Thai cuisine and you' ; re asking me, " ; Hey, why is your Pad Thai not the same as this Pad Thai in this other restaurant? And I' ; m like, " ; Funny. I just happen to know that that particular chef or the owner of that restaurant is from a different part of Thailand. This restaurant owner is from the northern part of Thailand, and they grew up with a different flavor profile and raw materials to create that particular dish. So that is why the influence of those particular flavors in that restaurant is different from mine." ; I am Bangkok style cuisine. We are almost like the mash up of all the regional, all these different regions in Thailand, in addition to all the other Asian countries. You know, we' ; re like the New York City or the Hong Kong of Thailand. Bangkok is. So let' ; s say if you went to a Thai restaurant where the owners are from the southern part of Thailand, you are going to get much spicier dishes that has a lot more maybe Malaysian flavors. Infused into them, Indian flavors, and a lot of seafood. Right? That' ; s going to be what they grew up on, the flavors that they grew up on. And that' ; s what they know on how they' ; re going to make their particular Pad Thai or curries. And that' ; s what they' ; re sharing through their restaurant. So authenticity again, comes back to where that particular person is from, what flavor profiles that they grew up with, raw materials, why ingredients, and how they bring their authenticity to the table through their restaurant concept or even in their house. And again, I can only say, like, for me, I' ; m I am a blend, you know, of my heritage, whether it' ; s from Texas, America in general, Boston, and Thailand, and all my other travel experience from all around the world. And these are the flavors that I grew up with, and this is what I want to share with my people. |01:21:20| Brody That' ; s really nice. And also the show that you' ; re talking about, those connections between people, the bridges that you' ; re building are really interesting and unique. Why do you think food is an easy or accessible way for people to make those kind of connections or build those bridges? |01:21:47| Phinyawatana I think it goes back to how we' ; re brought up, right? In a family. It' ; s around the kitchen. Mama, grandma, great grandma. We are the, the female in the household is the person who brings life, I think. And around life, a lot of their love language is food. And for us to be able to feed people, especially in the Asian culture, food is definitely our love language. We are not extremely affectionate. We don' ; t you know, we' ; re not touchy, huggy, in a lot of senses. And we have to feed people. And I think it' ; s similar in other cultures, as well. So I believe that food is definitely one of the easiest places where people come together. We sit at the dining table together. We converse over a delicious meal that touches all our souls very similarly. And we' ; re able to have that special connection and communicate and openly share who we are together around food and the dinner table. |01:22:55| Brody That' ; s really interesting. And I think that a lot of what you' ; re saying, you know, shows that you' ; re actively building those connections. So I was wondering if you could talk some more about the traveling and about the trips. What are the, what are the goals and what kinds of, and what kinds of things are you doing? |01:23:14| Phinyawatana I' ; m almost letting out the secret of why I created these travel trips, but I think my husband and my kids finally already know. So I love, love to travel. I have traveled around the world. I, during college, I went through this program called Semester at Sea, where you literally sail around the world. Many different continents. Ten different countries. Experience all food and culture. And I' ; ve been traveling since I was 13, going to school, right? Back and forth, back and forth. And with that and now that I have restaurants and kids. I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God, what' ; s going to be the best excuse for me to be able to travel and not feel guilty about leaving the restaurant or my family?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Let' ; s create a food travel trip. Let' ; s create this culinary retreat where I get to go and share my love of travel and, you know, be able to expense it somehow. Right?" ; So that birthed this culinary retreat and I' ; m like, well, obviously I' ; m going to start in Thailand because I know and grew up in Thailand and I want to share that with the world. And it' ; s so funny also, whenever I' ; m in the restaurant and I' ; m talking to people and I say, " ; I just came back from Thailand." ; My super regulars would be like, " ; Nikky, please, please take me on your next trip." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Well, I can' ; t take you if I' ; m taking my family. I got family duties. But let me figure out a way to take you and be able to service you 100% with my time and energy and give you the best experience possible." ; So I had my first trip in 2019 in November. We had an amazing trip. And I was smart enough to take a camera crew with me. Because I said, " ; I want to document this because it' ; s going to be an amazing experience. I don' ; t know what' ; s going to happen. I have an itinerary and you know, it' ; s going to be amazing." ; I took eleven souls to Thailand who' ; s never been to Thailand at all, ever. They all had traveled around the world. They' ; ve done other foodie trips. They' ; ve done Italy, they' ; ve done France, they' ; ve done, funny enough, Vietnam. China, Japan. I' ; m like, " ; But we' ; ve never been to Thailand. And like, if I was going to Thailand, I' ; m going with you, Nikky. You know the language, you know the people, you know the food. Let' ; s go have fun." ; So on these trips, we hit all the highlights of Thailand. Right? You need to visit the major temples, Reclining Buddha, the islands, whether it be major festivals. But in that, I want people to understand the different flavors of Thailand like we were talking before. So we would go to at least two different parts of the country. We would be in the south, in Thailand, central or north and central or, you know, northeast in central. But we would explore the markets. Let' ; s say we start out in Phuket. Like this next trip I' ; m going on, we' ; re starting in Phuket. We' ; re going to explore a local market we' ; re going to eat at a lot of different restaurants, visit all the sights, see the big Buddha. Go on a catamaran, island jumping, hopping trip. As well as do a cooking class and cook from the flavor profile of the southern part of Thailand. Then we' ; re going to fly over to Bangkok. And we' ; re going to visit the sites. We' ; re going to visit more markets. We' ; re going to have another kind of cooking class so you can understand all the flavor profiles that would come from this central part of Thailand. And go eat at all my favorite restaurants and meet up all my friends, all my chef friends and understand that the culinary scene and the culture over in Bangkok. And then you would come back with this amazing knowledge of like, " ; Okay. Now I understand, right?" ; You have now have been immersed. You understand the hospitality, the hospitality of Thailand in addition to...And I go five star. I don' ; t go. Because I' ; m like, I' ; m old now. I don' ; t want to go rough it. I want to go have an amazing experience, hang out at these amazing resorts and pamper you to the nine where all you need to know is " ; What time do I need to wake up and what do I need" ; to bring down from my room? And I take it from there and we have an amazing time. And all of them came back every single day, somebody came up to me during that trip, that first trip and gave me a hug and said, " ; Nikky, this has been a life changing experience for me. I' ; ve never experienced anything like this before." ; For somebody, it would have been the food for another person, it would have been the people or a certain experience that they had or a combination of it all. And they said, " ; I now have a different perspective in life. I have a different perspective of my American life." ; And they made like all these new changes and they were so inspired to follow their dream or their path that they were meant to have. You can find all that on YouTube. We have this all recorded and shared all their testimonials because, it to me, after that first trip, I said to myself, " ; No matter what happens, I want to continue to do this. Because not only did I have a life changing experience to be able to help these people have life changing experience, I know I' ; m doing, I' ; m living my mission of inspiring people through food, culture and travel." ; And then, of course, 2020 happened. |01:28:33| Brody Yeah, that was my next set of questions I wanted to ask you about the impact of, in Dallas, we' ; ve had the tornadoes and the ice storm and of course, COVID and everything that came with that. How has, have those challenges impacted your operations? |01:28:51| Phinyawatana I mean, everything is a lesson learned, right? If you can learn from them, then great. Hopefully the world won' ; t or the universe won' ; t send that lesson back to you again. We were hit by the ice storm. Fortunately, I think we only had some pipe burst, so that wasn' ; t too bad. We still had to throw out everything that was in our kitchen because we had to shut down for 3 to 5 days. All the roads were shut down and electricity was out. What other supplies? Electricity. We had gas. Can' ; t get on the roads. And then the tornado. That was so interesting. So a fun, fun fact. I like to call it now. The tornado came in right behind our first location and hit the Home Depot across the street. We were so fortunate that it missed us. So it went like one street behind on Northhaven. We' ; re on Forest Lane and we heard the news coming in. We shut down early, but that night we had a company-wide party planned. And so, like not only were we shutting early, thank goodness we were all coming together and we all drove up to Allen, which was also the path of tornado. I don' ; t know what we were thinking. But because of that, we closed early. Everybody left. And we were lucky enough that it didn' ; t hit us. But man, it was like an awakening, right? There were a lot of restaurants that got hit that disappeared, you know, in a few seconds, the tornado touched up and down. But what I remember from that was we were just so lucky, you know? Again, the universal energy or the the sign was, " ; Hey, you' ; re meant to be here. Please continue to be here, open when you can and feed people as much as you can. Because they need you." ; And COVID, the thing what I...so many lessons there and I think, you know, it was a blessing in disguise, for a lot of us who can look at it from a positive perspective in hindsight 20/20, is we realized that our team was very strong. Right? Our people. And we were very responsible for the well-being of our community. When March 17 happened and all the restaurants were supposed or all the restaurants were required to shut down all our dining room and we had to open to go only we were making that really hard decision of do we shut down completely? How are we going to do this? How are we going to pivot? What restaurants stay open? Who gets to stay? Who gets to stay home? You know, staffing and everything. And we were deciding whether to shut down two locations or not at all. Right? Because we did not know what was going on. And my staff was saying, you know, maybe we can, you know, keep two locations because we have two locations that are close together, more downtown. And two of them that are close together, more up here, right, at Forest and in Richardson. So like, let' ; s say let' ; s keep one open. You know, let' ; s get all the staff in one location and then we can, you know, alternate in and out. But my right hand gals, I have two at the time said, " ; Nikky, you know, why? Let' ; s just stay open. You know, I have a feeling let' ; s try it out." ; If it doesn' ; t work, because this is how we work. Let' ; s try it. And if it doesn' ; t work, then we figure it out, right? And I' ; m like, " ; You know what? That' ; s a great reminder. That is that is our value. And our value is really about our people." ; Because that was like the hardest thing. We are responsible for their " ; Rice Bowl." ; It' ; s kind of like our terminology. We need to protect their rice bowl, their payroll, their paycheck. And fortunately enough, we didn' ; t lay anyone off. We kept everyone who wanted to stay. And we were able to support our entire team and our community. Our Mint Fanatics supported us through all that. And every time I see somebody and still in 2022, they would come up to me and said, " ; Nikky, I ate at your restaurant, if not every day, every other day or every week. I made sure I ordered from you because I wanted to make sure that you were supported." ; And I and I, all I can do is tear up and thank them because it was because of them that we were able to stay around and continue to be even innovative at the time because I' ; m like, " ; I' ; m keeping my staff. Let' ; s figure out how to create sales to be able to pay the payroll." ; And we came up with the sauce line. We came up with virtual cooking classes. We converted our POS systems to be able to support curbside service. Handheld electronic devices, a better online ordering system. I mean, we innovated and innovated and innovated. And I don' ; t like to say that we pivoted because we probably did 360 five hundred times and we' ; re able to...I feel like we even turned into like a like an Amazon hub for a while because all we were doing was doing a lot of shipping of cooking kits at the time, where you could go online and watch me how to cook this. And I' ; m like, " ; I know you' ; re not going to go out and you don' ; t have time to prep because you' ; re also homeschooling all your kids, but you want something fresh and an activity that they can do around the kitchen." ; Got the kids in the kitchen. I got my kids in the kitchen. We were doing all these creating all these video programs. And we made the community hopefully stronger than us coming out of of of COVID. I was more connected with my family. My priorities also changed as a mom, as a business owner. And I think a lot of people were reflecting during that time because we had time to kind of, you know slow down a little bit. So that was a great lesson- COVID. |01:34:47| Brody That' ; s really a creative response. I mean, going beyond curbside and and hoping for takeout orders. And it' ; s pretty creative that you started the sauce line during that time and paired it with the virtual cooking classes. Are those lines of business going to continue then even though... |01:35:09| Phinyawatana We yeah...So the sauce line definitely has been growing and now we' ; ve turned it into a " ; Thai Takeover" ; because really it was like, " ; I don' ; t want to just be cooking in my kitchen and showing you how to use sauces. It' ; s not fun for me, and I doubt it would be fun for you to just watch me by myself." ; There' ; s a million people doing that out there, right? Let me go do something different, because if I' ; m having fun, you' ; re having fun. So we are continuing to teach you how to use the sauces. People will still come in and buy the sauces at the restaurant or online at Chef Nikky.com. You can go on new trips. We have continued to oh, we also imported a spice from Thailand called Drama Queen, and it' ; s on Amazon. We' ; ve learned how to do Amazon. We' ; ve learned how to get into Central Market during that time. And wow, what else did we do? The kits, we' ; re kind of slowing those down. People are now going back to their norm of takeout, which I totally understand. And when they do have time to cook, they want to be able to do it from soup to nuts. I think a lot of their understanding coming out of COVID is you know, I need to make time for the important things in life. I need to make time to cook for my family, to hang out with my kids, to hang out with myself, to do self care. Oh, my God, I love baking. People were baking breads, you know, all day long. So being able to go out and find those ingredients and starting from scratch all the way to the end product and being proud of their accomplishment of what they can create in the kitchen, I believe has been a big priority for a lot of people. |01:36:46| Brody Yeah. I want to go back to just when you were talking about your initial concept and Asian fusion that you mentioned that, you know, obviously the green for the labels and the branding and everything. But I think you also mentioned that you wanted to be a " ; green" ; restaurant. |01:37:03| Phinyawatana Yes. |01:37:03| Brody How did you go about doing that? |01:37:06| Phinyawatana I guess it' ; s in my personal values that always automatically stamps into my business values is being green. I love the ocean. I love the beach. I want to be green for the turtles. Whales and dolphins are like my favorite animal. You know, in addition to my dogs and being green to the world. And funny enough, even at Hockaday, I was one of the first people who started a recycling club back in the day and was able to get like those recycling dumpsters on campus. It was a long time ago. I know it' ; s everywhere now. But being green, having traveled the world and seeing everything, it just makes me realize, " ; Hey, we need to do our part. We need to be responsible business owners." ; A lot of people call that conscious capitalism, but just you know, going green by using sustainable products when we can. Being able to recycle the items that we can while we can, but still creating values. Using local products, ingredients. A big thing that I started way when nobody really was interested in was creating a wine list around wineries that were farming sustainably. Not all of them your, you know, went towards the organic labels because that was very expensive, you had to understand that. Doing biodynamic wines. Women owned wines. I was very supportive in that side of the business because I am also a women owned business. We need to support each other. And what else? Wines, ingredients. Recycle. We recycle our oils. We make sure that happens. We recycle where we can and use green products where we can. |01:39:02| Brody That' ; s great. Well, really interesting and consistent all the way through. Well, are there any questions that I did not ask you that you' ; d like to talk about and add to this interview? |01:39:20| Phinyawatana In relation to food cultural, and stories in the Asian Dallas. I have to say, I have, I feel very blessed to have been a part of the Asian community here in the Dallas area and being able to witness the change in the evolution of it over twenty plus years. You know, my restaurant' ; s eighteen years or so, but I' ; ve been in the business for a few more years prior in my other startups and working in the restaurant. But being able to watch the clientele' ; s palate change over time. And being a part of that narrative, being part of telling that story. Being part of the educating of a flavor profiles. And not just Thai, but every flavor profiles of how things fused together. And you know, what are some of the similarities of comfort food that people love, whether it be the spaghetti? I mean, those are the things that I grew up with and also my kids enjoy. Your pizzas, your pastas, your burgers, your tacos. You know, there' ; s like a whole taco thing, you know, all the time here in Dallas. The barbecue side and sharing that experience and being a part of somebody' ; s rotation, their weekly rotation, of being their Asian go to, I feel very blessed and honored to be a part of that. And going back to flavor profile changes, I mean, the funniest thing that I always loved to like bring up or point out is like people can now handle heat and spice way much better than what they believed they could or did, you know, fifteen, twenty years ago. It' ; s so fun, you know, the scale of your spice level, right? At our restaurant, you know, we don' ; t go by numbers. People still come in like, " ; I want a five, a ten." ; And I' ; m like, " ; You want a five? A ten out of fifty? Out of a hundred? Like, what are we talking about? You know, that' ; s a five out of five or it' ; s a three out of five." ; I don' ; t know. So we just go by mild, medium hot, or Thai hot. You know, I understand, I think you understand what mild is and your mild could be different. So, hey, here' ; s an extra bottle of hot sauce that we created or, you know, to increase your spice level and educating them that not everything in Thai cuisine is spicy. Not. That is not true. And most of the time Thai people will have either a spicy, they call it Prik Nam Pla on the table where it' ; s like fresh chilies and a fish sauce or other type of chili condiments and dips that are added to a dish to create that spice level because even everyone in one household don' ; t eat the same level of spice. So we can' ; t handle. I don' ; t eat Thai spicy. So being able to see that and having people come in and say, " ; You know, you have, you know, the best you know, whatever it is, the Pad Thai, the red curries, your chicken satay, your peanut sauce, that is like my crack sauce or your orange chicken." ; I mean, I just being able to get to hear that and say that I fed. I fed somebody from in their womb until they' ; re birthed out and they' ; re eating, you know Pad Kee Mow and red curry at eighteen months. And being a part of that food education at a young age and actually, you know, we' ; ve been around long enough that we' ; ve been able to see the graduation of those kids and going out into the world and sharing the love of Asian flavors with their friends who' ; ve never had Asian cuisine and bringing them in and turning them on to all these different flavors and cultures and wanting them to explore. I just feel very blessed and honored to be able to say, " ; Hey, you know, thank you for having me as a part of your food and culture. Especially the Asian side, the Thai side of your palate. And hope to continue to be a part of that throughout." ; |01:43:26| Brody Well, that' ; s really beautiful. Thank you for sharing your story with me and for sitting for this interview. I really appreciate it. |01:43:33| Phinyawatana Thank you. And kob kuhn ka. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Nikky Phinyawatana, May 9, 2022
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Thai
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2022-05-09
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Betsy Brody
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Matthew Loh
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5.4 Interview with Matthew Loh, January 25, 2023 2021oh002_di_021 01:22:59 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Chinese Matthew Loh Betsy Brody wav oh_audio_dig_Matthew_Loh_20220125.wav 1:|17(8)|26(9)|39(2)|53(4)|67(2)|79(3)|91(9)|102(9)|112(6)|124(3)|137(14)|150(6)|159(17)|169(1)|182(6)|190(11)|201(1)|209(9)|224(1)|238(2)|247(9)|257(9)|267(13)|276(9)|289(2)|301(7)|309(10)|319(6)|328(7)|344(14)|355(11)|365(10)|378(5)|388(4)|396(8)|409(8)|421(4)|432(4)|447(13)|459(12)|469(16)|480(6)|490(8)|503(4)|512(7)|521(15)|531(1)|539(8)|550(13)|562(14)|575(2)|587(1)|604(10)|614(5)|627(16)|637(12)|649(12)|662(8)|676(3)|688(1)|696(7)|705(10)|715(2)|728(9)|741(11)|751(1)|761(6)|771(2)|780(3)|787(3)|797(9)|806(2)|813(2)|821(2)|832(10)|841(17)|854(6)|865(8)|875(7)|893(9)|906(3)|916(8)|928(13) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/174079 Aviary audio 0 Introduction 33 Refugee experience/ Arriving in the US immigration ; Kansas ; Missouri ; refugee ; refugees ; San Francisco ; sponsor ; Texas ; Vietnam ; Wichita 225 Going to school in the United States bullying ; education ; school 315 Father's work in Kansas busboy ; family ; laundry ; restaurant ; social class ; work 409 Moving to Texas from Kansas/ Opening first Hong Kong Marketplace Arlington ; Asian culture ; Asian grocery ; business ; Hong Kong Marketplace ; Kansas ; Texas 591 Growing up working in the family business Asian grocery ; business ; grocery store ; Hong Kong Marketplace ; rice 667 Growth of Hong Kong Marketplace Arlington ; Asia Times Square ; Asian community ; Asian grocery ; business ; grocery store ; growth ; Hong Kong Marketplace ; property ; rent 844 Vision for Asian Times Square complex Asia Times Square ; Asian grocery ; grocery store ; growth ; Hong Kong Marketplace 1153 Asia Times Square shops and activities Asian community ; Asian grocery ; bridge ; business ; culture ; dance ; dim sum ; entertainment ; exotic fruits ; grocery store ; Hong Kong Marketplace ; hub ; Metro City Bank ; Pearl Restaurant ; restaurant ; seafood ; self checkout ; singing 1751 Food and promoting culture Asian American ; Asian community ; Asian food ; bridge ; culture ; food ; foodie ; Hong Kong Marketplace 1951 Changes in ability to source Asian products Asian grocery ; brand ; containers ; COVID ; freezer ; fruits ; grocery store ; Hong Kong Marketplace ; impor ; importing ; jasmine rice ; logistics ; pandemic ; rice ; seafood ; sourcing ; vegetables ; warehouse ; wholesalers 2113 Hong Kong Marketplace's relationship with DFW International Airport airport ; approved vendor ; business ; DFW International Airport ; Hong Kong Maketplace ; live seafood ; seafood ; SkyChef ; warehouse 2320 Asia Times Square as a hub for new immigrants from Asia acclimate ; Asia TImes Square ; Asian community ; assimilation ; culture ; Hong Kong Marketplace ; hub ; immigrants ; mom and pop ; senior citizens 2589 Building relationships with local government and leaders Asia Times Square ; business ; city council ; English ; Grand Prairie ; Hong Kong Maketplace ; language ; local government 2934 Asia TImes Square as a tourist destination Asian grocery ; culture ; Grand Prairie ; grocery store ; local government ; tourism ; tradition 3143 Lunar New Year at Asia Times Square Asia Times Square ; bridge ; celebrations ; diversity ; festivals ; fireworks ; hub ; Lunar New Year ; media ; red envelope ; tradition 3355 Growth of Asian community in Dallas Arlington ; Asian community ; business ; Grand Prairie ; growth 3492 Labor shortages and impact of COVID COVID ; essential business ; grocery store ; Hong Kng Marketplace ; labor ; pandemic 3874 Characterizing the business as a " ; mom and pop" ; growth ; Hong Kong Marketplace ; mom and pop ; property ; real estate 3995 Reflections on Anti-Asian rhetoric and violence American ; anti-Asian rhetoric ; Asian American ; Asian hate ; discrimination ; racism ; violence 4458 What it means to be American American ; American dream ; celebrations ; culture ; cutlure ; discrimination ; festivals ; identity ; philanthropy ; racism ; refugee 4743 Relationships with legislators Asian Business Council ; Congress ; flag ; Grand Prairie ; Grand Prairie Chamber of Commerce ; Library of Congress ; Texas Legislature “Digging In” explores how the growth of the Asian community coincided with the rise of “foodie culture” in Dallas, leading to unique opportunities for economic and social engagement between and among different Asian immigrant groups as well as with the larger Dallas community. |00:00:04| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is January 25th, 2023. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Matthew Loh. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you for joining me for this interview. |00:00:30| Loh Absolutely. It' ; s an honor. |00:00:32| Brody Just to start out with, where and when were you born? |00:00:35| Loh I was born in 1972 in a small city. Well, pretty big city, actually, in Can Tho, South Vietnam. |00:00:44| Brody What brought you to Texas? |00:00:47| Loh Well, you know, my family' ; s one of those refugee, boat people, so it was truly a two-year journey for us to be sponsored and to come to this great land of opportunity. And in 1979, we were, we won the lottery ticket, basically. We have a sponsor. Her name is Aunt Bonnie Minatra and Bill Minatra. They are my angels ; they sponsored my family. There was six of us and my parents. So it' ; s eight. And we came to America, landed in September of 1979 in a small town called, I believe it' ; s called New Mexico, Missouri. A very small town. I think we were probably the only second Asian family there. We didn' ; t stay there long because we couldn' ; t speak the language, couldn' ; t work, couldn' ; t get around too well. And so my dad was able to find a friend in San Francisco who said, " ; Hey, won' ; t you come over here? And I can get you a busboy job?" ; And my dad decided to pack the whole entire family of eight of us. And we rode a bus to San Francisco. |00:02:07| Brody Do you remember that? What do you remember about that trip? |00:02:09| Loh Oh. You know, I think I don' ; t remember much, to be honest with you. But I thought it was a fun ride. You know, as a child, not knowing what America is like or whatever, still adapting. Everything is just so new. And to get on a bus and just ride, I thought it' ; s fun. But I' ; m pretty sure looking back, and just to think how my dad and my mom felt, it probably was another huge challenge for them. First, to escape from Vietnam after the war and then to try to adapt into a new place. So to that bus ride was a long ride. I know that. And then we stayed in San Francisco for quite some time, but not that very long because the earthquake scared my mom to the point where she said, " ; We' ; ve got to move." ; And my dad found another friend who has a job for him in Wichita, Kansas. So we moved to Wichita, Kansas. Got on a bus again, went to, moved to Wichita, Kansas, and we stayed there. Of course, during this time we can' ; t speak the language. I' ; m still learning and adapting. And so we were living off of food stamps and welfare, government housing and whatnot. And then we stayed in Wichita for a good five years and then we got tired of the tornado. So we moved to Texas in 1985/1986. |00:03:45| Brody So were you in school in all those places? |00:03:48| Loh Yes, I was in school. |00:03:49| Brody And your siblings? |00:03:51| Loh Yes, my siblings were in school. I think my two oldest brothers never went to school here. Because they were old enough to kind of get a job and help out my parents and help out the family basically. So yeah, I owe a lot to my older two brothers. They sacrificed a lot just like my parents did to give me an opportunity for a decent education here in the US. |00:04:19| Brody Tell me about what you remember about both being in school, in the situation that you were in and moving around and starting new schools. |00:04:29| Loh Oh, man. It was tough. I' ; ll be honest with you. You know, when you come from a very poor family with nothing, all the clothing we had was basically donated from the church, and most of the time it doesn' ; t fit you, right. So, you know, you do get bullied a little bit here and there and get called names and whatnot. But luckily, I didn' ; t understand English that well where I' ; d, you know. But I think the hardship and some of those events that happened in my life made me the person who I am. So you' ; ve just got to grow from there. |00:05:16| Brody You mentioned that your dad' ; s friend set him up with a busboy position when you moved to California. What kind of work did he do in Kansas and then in Texas? |00:05:28| Loh Well, even in Kansas, it' ; s anything he can get his hands on. I think when we were in Wichita, Kansas, he worked in a restaurant. He worked in a laundry and then doing some other side jobs. Basically, when you have a family of eight and you don' ; t speak English well and you don' ; t have the opportunity to make good money, you just need to continue to work. And my dad did that- worked in a restaurant, worked in laundry, ironing clothes and whatnot. Any side gig that he can get, he would do it, along with my two older brothers, just to have more food on a table. Obviously, we were living off of food stamps, so there was some government assistance, but that' ; s not enough. And to be honest with you, my dad from Vietnam, he was a very successful businessman. He was pretty well off. We had butlers, we had maids and whatnot in Vietnam. But to lose all of that and come back here, he still has that sense of pride that he can overcome it. And he' ; ll want to work hard to someday not rely on the government assistance anymore. He' ; s just a very prideful man and I' ; m very thankful for that. |00:06:47| Brody Yeah. Sounds like he was determined. Once you got to Texas, where did you settle and what happened? |00:06:56| Loh Yeah, it' ; s a funny story, actually. The reason why we came to Texas. So we never thought about Texas, to be honest with you. But my dad had another friend here in Texas that he hasn' ; t seen for quite some time. So he and my older brother drove from Wichita, Kansas to Texas to meet up with a friend. And it was during the wintertime. And, you know, in Asian culture, you go and visit somebody, you' ; ve got to bring something. So once he got to Texas- in Arlington, Texas-, he tried to find an Asian grocery store. And so he was able to find one, off of the corner of New York Avenue and Arkansas. It was at most 2000 square foot. So he went in there and he just buys something and whatnot. Bought a gift and went to visit his friend. And then the next day they were going to try to head on back to Kansas- Wichita. And it was just, the weather was really bad. It' ; s snowing. And so he decided to spend another night. So he went back to the grocery store and then he ended up talking to the owner, and the owner wanted to sell the business. You know, he wanted to sell the business. Now, at this time, we were, in Wichita, Kansas, working in a restaurant and whatnot. My dad was able to save enough money just to open a small Asian grocery, an Asian restaurant in Garden City. So, our family was kind of split up. Like I said, we were at a point where, " ; Let' ; s do everything we can to be independent, right?" ; And so he visited an Asian grocery store. He never owned an Asian grocery store, but he is a businessman, right? He owned a bakery in Vietnam. And then we owned a small restaurant in Garden City, Kansas and so it intrigued him. And so he came on talking to the owner and they decided to...My dad decided to buy the grocery store phone from them with the sale of finance and whatnot, just to try it out. Again, very small business. But he found it fascinating that we can eat the food that we like, carry the food we like, and try to carry more and more Asian products. And so he just decided to go ahead and take a chance, take a huge risk, and then opening up our very first grocery store. It was called Hong Kong Marketplace. In 1986. And so that' ; s when my entire family moved over to Texas, to Arlington, Texas. |00:09:49| Brody It' ; s a great story. Did most of you work in the family business? |00:09:54| Loh Absolutely, all of us did. |00:09:56| Brody Tell me about what you did, what that was like. |00:09:58| Loh So, you know, unlike other kids my age at that time who go to junior high school and then high school and then probably play sports and go out with friends and whatnot, what I do is, after school, I walk back to the apartment behind the grocery store, put up my stuff. Then I' ; ll walk to the grocery store and help out. I would carry rice bags, say hi to customers, help sack, help carry the grocery bag out, put it in the car. And so, it was, it' ; s...we weren' ; t at a point where we could hire many help and so a lot of the profit come from our own labor and that' ; s how we grew from there. We' ; ve just been extremely blessed, very fortunate, took advantage of all the opportunities that this great nation provided to us, and just continued to work hard and grew and grew and grew until we' ; re here now because of that. |00:11:06| Brody Tell me about the growth. Where, from that one store, where is the business now? |00:11:12| Loh So, from a 2000 square foot grocery store, we continue...With again, it' ; s just with the growth of the Asian population in the Arlington area, Dallas, Fort Worth area, our business grew. And so from that one grocery store, 2000, then we expanded. We bought and rented another location, leased another location that was twice the size. And throughout the whole process, we somehow, we were, all our business has always remained along...between Arkansas and Pioneer Parkway. So the first store was at New York and Arkansas. Then the second store was at Center and Pioneer/Arkansas. And then we moved from there to the one back on New York and Pioneer. I think that one used to be an old Home Depot. It was a huge- that was a huge step for us because we went from a 2000 grocery store to move over there. It ended up being, I believe, 30 some thousand square foot grocery store. So it did continue to grow. Now, when we actually moved to the location in Pioneer and New York, we actually co-owned the property. It' ; s the very first time that we actually moved into real estate. And so we owned. We had a partner with a bank, and we owned that. And then business continued to prosper and grow. And so we decided to buy another building in Dallas for Walnut and Audelia. And that is the...That' ; s a 40,000 square foot grocery store. And so we were operating two grocery stores for quite some time. And then a huge opportunity presented itself again when Walmart and Sam' ; s Club in Grand Prairie went dark. And they went dark, I forgot what year was, but we had an opportunity to buy the Walmart building first and we bought that, I believe, in 2005, and then we bought the adjacent building, which was the Sam' ; s Club building in 2013. But the very first business...so we shut down in 2008, we shut down our operation in Arlington to move over to the Grand Prairie location, and we opened that in 2008. And then in 2014 is when we developed the other building next to it, Asia Times Square. And so the entire area is called Asia Times Square. |00:14:04| Brody Yeah. Tell me about your vision for that. I mean, it' ; s a big step to go from a 2000 square foot small grocery store to sort of running multiple stores and then a complex. So what were the goals and what were some of the concerns that you that you had at the time? |00:14:26| Loh So just to let you know, at first, I wasn' ; t really a huge part of my family business. You know, I went to school, went to UTA to get my engineering degree. And then when my dad wanted to continue to expand the business and he asked me, I think I shared with you, to join the family business. I said, " ; I' ; ll do so if you make me the highest paid cashier in the history of America." ; And he did so. So I quit my engineering career in 1999, and I started helping out the family business. And so once I continued to help out the family business, I started to see what were, what the potentials were. And so when we decided to buy that building from Walmart, we looked at the entire area surrounding that area and see what the potential was going to be. And so we saw the vacant Sam' ; |s Club next to it as well. And it was always in our heart to acquire that. Unfortunately, at that time we couldn' ; t because, the way Walmart operates, they' ; re just a giant. It' ; s just a little bit difficult to acquire a building because it was in a trust, part of a trust that included twenty other Sam' ; s Clubs. So we bought, we went ahead and said, " ; Let' ; s just convert this Walmart into what we believe will be the best property, the best destination to provide our Asian community everything that they would want." ; And so we took that building. Walmart was 120,000 or 130,000 square foot. I keep forgetting which one is bigger Walmart or Sam' ; s Club. But we took that, and we converted it, and we moved Hong Kong Marketplace into that building and let Hong Kong Marketplace be the anchor. And then we start building everything out and start leasing it, bringing new tenants in. So before we did all of that, we really had to decide what our vision is going to be, what the master plan is going to be. And I want to reiterate that, America is such a great nation that provides people abundance of opportunity. I think as long as you are determined to work hard, you can succeed in America. And that' ; s the beauty of America. But, you know, she has her own problems as well. But we just continued to grow. And we thought about calling it Hong Kong Market Mall. We thought about calling something like that. But, our vision, our plan was bigger than that, I think because we were sponsored by angels, our Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Bill, we wanted to do something that' ; s bigger than a business. We wanted to be able to give back. And we want to bring people together. And so we didn' ; t want to call it " ; Hong Kong Mall" ; or any specific country. And so we decided to call it " ; Asia Times Square." ; We wanted to acquire, and we did acquire about sixty acres of land, and we wanted to make that Asia Times Square. We didn' ; t want to do anything else because we are such proud Asian Americans, and we wanted to create something that the Asian community can be proud of. And not only that, I wanted to create something where other ethnic groups want to experience Asia, they can come visit us. |00:18:25| Brody How did you come up with the " ; Times Square" ; name? |00:18:28| Loh I think because New York has a " ; Times Square" ; there, that had a huge part of it. And I just like how people gather there and celebrate. And I said " ; Huh, let' ; s call it ' ; Asia Times Square.' ; " ; So we were actually...We were thinking about calling it " ; Asian American Mall" ; , but I didn' ; t want that either. And I didn' ; t want to call it " ; Asian Times Square" ; because I feel like if we call it " ; Asian Times Square," ; we felt like it' ; s...the area was specific just for Asians and we don' ; t want that. We are very inclusive. We want to promote our culture. We welcome everybody to come in. So that' ; s why we took the " ; n" ; out and just called it " ; Asia Times Square." ; |00:19:12| Brody So tell me about...Walk me through Asia Times Square. What is it like? What would I find if I went there and what are the types of things that people do while they' ; re there? |00:19:27| Loh Sure. First and foremost is Hong Kong Marketplace. We' ; ve been in business for 36 years now. And we wouldn' ; t be who we are, where we are, what we can become without the love and support of our Asian community and the community in general, to be honest with you. We carry products from all over, from the Far East. We always carry, you know, we carry products that you can' ; t find our local Kroger' ; s and Walmart and whatnot. And we specialize in seafood, fresh seafood. Live seafood. Vegetables. Exotic fruits. I' ; ve been on numerous mainstream TV stations- NBC, ABC, Channel 11, Fox, CW. We' ; ve just been invited luckily, you know, we' ; ve been invited just to talk about the exotic fruits and vegetables that we eat. And that' ; s just the beauty of it. I think, living is about experiencing and trying different things. And, you know, one of the fastest growing clientele for us are non-Asian, and I' ; m super proud of that. So the grocery store is a big part of Asia Times Square. It occupies 40,000 square feet, carries products from all over the world. And it' ; s just continued to grow and continued to grow. I think we are the first Asian grocery store in DFW, maybe in Texas, that has a self-checkout. So, you know, with an engineering background, I' ; m always wanting to improve a process. And most Asians are probably a little bit worried and scared of moving to that self-checkout technology. But I feel like we' ; re at a point where we have to make constant improvement. And so, you know, I think going back to 1999 when I decided to quit my engineering career to help out the family grocery store, I think we were the first one to go with an automated cash register system with PLUs and be PCI compliance and whatnot. Because in the past, it' ; s always " ; Okay, this product is 99 cents, punch in ' ; 99' ; ." ; That' ; s it. There' ; s no description whatsoever. But we upgraded and went with a full POS system. And so we constantly tried to make changes. You know, we have to. Where we can be proud Asian American, but we have to move along with technology. So that' ; s that. And then, we have a great relationship with banks. One of our banks that were a huge part of our growth was City Bank, C-I-T-Y. They were our major vendor. And so when we bought that building, they were the lender, and they were also our tenant. So that was a great relationship. Unfortunately, right now, they' ; ve sold that branch to another bank. And we love Metro City Bank. They came in very supportive, and we love what they do as well. But just knowing a grocery store is not enough. We truly want to be a destination, really a place for Asians of all backgrounds and even non-Asians. I just want to create an environment where people can just come enjoy themselves and be a one stop shop. So we want to make sure we have a good food court selection. We have a hair salon. We have a jewelry store. We have money transfer, shipping, a variety of services there. You know, income tax, buying insurance, it' ; s all there. But we knew that that building would not be enough. So as soon as the Sam' ; s Club became available.... And it took six years because it' ; s just there' ; s a lot of legal stuff that Sam' ; s Club had to do and whatnot. And they knew the broker knows that we want that building. So as soon as they got that resolved, they contacted me and I believe it was within 45 days, we took ownership of it. It was a quick- there was not much negotiation. They gave me a price that I thought was fair and we took over. And so we own that building. Once we owned that building, we acquired more land to the west. So our Asia Times Square will be in both city of Grand Prairie and city of Arlington because the land that we own to the west is actually in city of Arlington. And we' ; ll look at developing that probably in the next couple of years. |00:24:23| Brody That' ; s great. So what is a typical weekend like at Asia Times Square? |00:24:28| Loh Oh, man. Typical weekend is crowded. It' ; s getting crowded. And I think us being able to understand and trying to stay true to our mission and our vision statement. Our mission is " ; Preserving Tradition and Promoting Culture." ; It took me a couple of years to come up with that mission, but I think that' ; s very, very important to us. I think we are definitely staying true to that because we host so many cultural events. My dad, when we, you know, he misses home, he misses home, and he missed the way we celebrate it, the way he celebrated the Lunar New Year and the Mid-Autumn back home. And so we make it a point where we will host those kinds of events at Asia Times Square. And in order to host an event like that, we need a lot of space. So that' ; s why it was important when we see all this vision, all this master plan, we don' ; t know how it' ; s going to turn out, to be honest with you. We don' ; t know. But we dream big. We dream big. And this what I want, this is what I want. So we have all...I always write down what I foresee, what my big dream is, what my big goal is going to be. Whether I make it there or not, you know, I don' ; t know. It' ; s yet to be seen. I have huge goals. But we' ; re working towards that. But on a weekend, there' ; s a line at the Pearl Restaurant. That Pearl Restaurant is probably one of my favorite dim sum places. They' ; re always packed on weekends. The grocery store is busy, but we have so many different cuisines there that people will love to try. We' ; ve got Korean, Japanese, Thai, Lao, Filipino, Vietnamese, of course, Mongolian. Just an array of Asian cuisine that you can try. And then, you know, we have a huge ballroom that hosts weddings and nonprofit fundraisers and whatnot. So it' ; s always busy. But when it comes to an event and some traditional holidays, it really gets packed. And what brings me a lot of joy, honestly, Betsy, is that when we host an event it' ; s not just the Asians that come out. It' ; s truly people from all walks of life, every ethnicity you can think of are out there celebrating with us. And I think our vision of becoming the destination, connecting cultures and community, it' ; s working. It' ; s working. And, you know, one of our purposes for Asia Times Square, again, I keep on telling you that, you know, we have a business to run. I' ; m the CEO and I have a business to run. I look at financial, I look at the numbers quite a bit. But at the end of the day, we' ; re much more than a business. Our purpose is actually to replace ignorance with acceptance. And, you know, to achieve that, we' ; re going to require a lot of support from everyone, from city government, from our customers, from people who are not- have not experienced what Asia is like, we want them here. We want them to come here and experience and to see that we are so much more alike than not alike. We all, as human beings, we love family, we love our families and friends, we love food, and we love to laugh and sing and dance. I mean, that' ; s what life is all about. And to try new things. And so, I shared this with my daughter the other day, I mean, a month, a few years ago, actually, when I told you that we want to replace ignorance with acceptance. Before I had my conversation with my daughter, to be honest with you, my statement was " ; to replace ignorance with tolerance." ; And I thought that was pretty good until I sat down to chat with my daughter, and she said, " ; Dad, why even tolerance? Why don' ; t we take a further step and just go directly to acceptance?" ; And I thought that was brilliant. And so I' ; ve been using that a lot. So it' ; s credit to my daughter. |00:29:07| Brody That' ; s great. |00:29:08| Loh Yeah. |00:29:10| Brody Smart daughter. What role, you mentioned, that we all love food. What role do you think food plays in your mission of promoting culture? |00:29:21| Loh A huge part. A huge, huge part. I' ; m a foodie. I' ; ll be honest. Oh, let me share with you. I' ; m Chinese, born in Vietnam, married to a Korean, so I love food from every place. I' ; m just a very proud Asian American. And food. I' ; m telling you ; I have been asked to be on so many mainstream media to talk about food and talk about. I remember there was this one episode they were talking about eating black, green, or dark color veggie, and why do you do that? And that it' ; s healthier, eating those colors. And so they would come and talk to us about it. I did a show with them, and then more and more non-Asians are shopping at our store. And that' ; s what actually, that was our tagline for Hong Kong Marketplace...it' ; s " ; Don' ; t just shop, have an experience." ; Because truly when you come in there and see products that you' ; ve never seen before and tried before. And then if I' ; m there, if anyone asks me or any of our staff, we try to explain to them why we eat certain things. Right? And the clientele, the increase in in clients from the non-Asian community is just phenomenal. So I strongly believe that food is such an important part. A lot of people eat to live. I live to eat. And so when it comes to food, I can talk on and on and on and on. |00:30:59| Brody What are your biggest sellers? |00:31:01| Loh Well, oh, I think our seafood department is second to none. And then, of course, our vegetable and fruits. You know, back then, even in 1986, I remember there' ; s certain foods that we love so much, but it' ; s so hard to get. Extremely hard to get. And even back then, in 1986, or in the early nineties, to get this fruit called durian or jackfruit. I mean, it was like fifty bucks. Back then it' ; s a lot of money. But now, we' ; re able to bring in those fruits by containers and Florida can grow some of them to longans and even Mexico can grow some of them. And for us to bring all that fruits and vegetables in at a much lower price, it just makes it so much easier for people to have access. And again, the growth. The growth not just in the Asian population alone, but just the growth of being a foodie, a growth of non-Asians wanting to try Asian food and products has grown so much. And that' ; s the beauty of America. There is the beauty. And then there' ; s also a dark side of America. But I think we are moving forward. We' ; re making huge progress to how I experience my childhood to now. |00:32:32| Brody That' ; s really interesting about the changes in your ability to source some of those quote unquote exotic vegetables or fruits. Can you walk me through the nuts and bolts of what that' ; s like now of keeping a huge store supplied with all of these things from all over the world? |00:32:52| Loh Yes. So I think there' ; s a lot more wholesalers out there that are importing stuff to make our retailer, our grocery store life easier. But there are still products that we import ourselves just by the sheer volume. One product is Jasmine Rice. Hong Kong Marketplace, we bring in anywhere between, I don' ; t know...I don' ; t know how many tons of, million pounds of rice we bring in. So actually we have an agreement with a farm in Thailand that we would go there and specifically pick out their grain of rice, the type of rice that we want to import with our own label, without own label. So we bring in containers, I don' ; t know, 30, 40 containers are huge. Millions of pounds of rice. So that, you know, when the logistics is actually a... especially during the COVID pandemic, it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. We weren' ; t able to bring in our product soon enough. It' ; s just because of the logistics. Containers of rice. Back then to bring in a container might cost 5000 or whatever. Shipping fees or not. But during the pandemic, you' ; ll be lucky if you can outbid your competitors and pay up to 15, 20,000 a container just to bring in a load of rice. But, that is huge. Our seafood department is huge. We import a lot of frozen tilapia from Taiwan, Thailand, China, Vietnam, just all over. Our seafood department is like I said, we have a huge...We are lucky enough to have a huge warehouse, a pretty decent freezer, a really big freezer so we can bring in loads at a time, containers at a time and just store it there. Having a warehouse helps a lot. |00:35:11| Brody Sure. A lot of people that I' ; ve interviewed have brought up the role that the airport plays in running their business and being able to source fresh food. Is there much of a relationship between your business and sort of the fact that the DFW airport exists? |00:35:29| Loh Yes, I love the airport. I tell you, there' ; s two reasons why I love the airport so much. Number one, we get our live seafood from the airport. We get our live lobsters, our live Alaskan crab, shrimp or whatever from the airport. So our staff will drive there on a weekly basis to pick up the shipment. That' ; s number one. Number two, I' ; m not sure you' ; re aware of this, but Hong Kong Marketplace is one of the very few approved vendors on the Sky Chef list. So, Sky Chef is one of our big clients, and we deliver to them on a weekly basis. So if you' ; re flying internationally, the chances are, when you' ; re drinking a cup of tea, a cup of instant noodle or some Asian ingredients, it' ; s probably coming from Hong Kong Marketplace. |00:36:34| Brody That' ; s so interesting. How did that relationship develop? |00:36:38| Loh You know, so it was a long process, to be honest with you. To be on their approved vendors list, you have to go through a process. You have to get audited by third party. They have to come and interview us and whatnot. We again, we were...They reached out to us. One day I received a phone call and they said who they were, and they asked if we carry this kind of product. And I said, " ; Yes, we do." ; And they said, " ; Well, we would like to order this on a regular basis, but you need to be on an approved vendors list. And these are all the requirements you need to meet. Can you do that?" ; And, you know, I' ; m pretty sure a lot of people probably would have said no because it was quite lengthy. And to be on that list, it' ; s not just the energies and the labor and effort that you need to put in, it' ; s also the capital, right? You had to really be willing to spend money to be in compliance and meet their requirements. And I thought that was a must for us. I think that was one way for us to continue to improve how we operate. And I met with my brothers. Some thought it was just too much, that it wouldn' ; t be profitable, and I was... I keep on telling them it' ; s not just about profitability and why I think we need to get to a point where we can grow and be a reputable company, that we can meet their standard. You know, not very many people can be on this list. Let' ; s separate ourselves from the others. So I went ahead and did that. And it was almost a year' ; s process, a one-year process to get on that list. And we' ; ve been serving them, delivering to them for the last, I don' ; t know, five or six years. |00:38:29| Brody That' ; s really interesting. And you' ; re right, I had no idea. |00:38:32| Loh Not very many people know that. That' ; s why we have a pretty decent sized warehouse is so that we make sure we always have the product they need. |00:38:41| Brody Earlier you mentioned many of the businesses that are in Asia Times Square, the insurance, the jewelry store, hair salon and so on. A lot of, especially in California, centers that are built around an Asian grocery store serve a dual purpose of providing the actual supplies for people to cook and eat, but also, a sort of safe place for people who are new to the country to sort of acclimate and have less of a barrier in terms of language or comfort. Do you feel that some of those businesses in Asia Time Square, have served that purpose- to help people ease in? |00:39:24| Loh Absolutely. Yeah. I wish when we came to America, we had Asia Times Square where we stayed. It would have been, it would have made life a lot easier. You know, even our tenants right now, most of them are " ; mom and pops." ; Absolutely, we have some of those franchise businesses, but we also want to work with " ; mom and pop" ; who want to start our own business. And I do go out of my way to try to assist them, to let them know that the way we operate in America is much different than in back home. And so, but even when we had those kinds of businesses and then we have immigrants from China or Vietnam who just came over to America, for them to be able to come to Asia Times Square and feel like home, it helps them so much. I know it would have helped me tremendously. And there' ; s actually...I' ; m glad you asked me that because there is a future project that we' ; re working on and it' ; s going to be very dear to me, and it' ; s to create a senior housing for the Asian community. A lot of our, you know, being second generation and third generation, we' ; re more adept or willing to have our mom and pop at an age where, you know, they can go live at a senior housing. Before and even still now I' ; m pretty sure all a lot of Asian families will have their parents live with them, with the eldest child, but slowly there more and more willingness to change. But there' ; s no place for them. There' ; s no place for the seniors and our parents to live because, you know, they love to eat what they like to eat, listen to music they won' ; t listen to and eat the food, you know, and play games that they' ; re accustomed to. But there' ; s no place out there that allows them to do that with comfort. If they do that, they feel a little uneasy. And so that' ; s going to be a very dear project for me, is to build a residential, not specifically for Asian, but it' ; s going to cater towards the Asian. We want to be inclusive. I love seeing non-Asians coming and enjoying Asian' ; s festivities, the food and whatnot. So I want to build something like that that the seniors can live there, walk to the grocery store. We want to build a park, an Asian-themed park with trails to Bangkok or trails to Saigon, trails to Seoul, you know, all the different countries and just have a very nice park for the seniors to walk and keep them constantly moving. I think one of the biggest differences between Asia, I mean, between America, seniors in America versus seniors in overseas is the health. I think because we have no choice. Everywhere we want to go, we have to drive here, we drive, drive, drive, whereas in Asia, we walk, walk, walk. And walking is such a great exercise for the senior. Even for me, actually, I would wake up early when my wife makes me and I' ; m always thankful that she makes me do it. We would walk around our neighborhood and just that one hour walk makes a big difference in our lives. So I want to create something like that for our Asian seniors here. |00:43:00| Brody That' ; s really beautiful and really fits in with the larger mission that that you have. I hope it works out. I have a couple of questions about just sort of when you were developing. Did you have any pushback about signage, about traffic, about anything like that as you grew and developed, especially Asia Times Square? |00:43:27| Loh Yes. So, you know, I' ; m lucky enough that, in my family, I' ; m the youngest of six. And so, there' ; s three of us that got a higher education. My third brother, John, Melody is an accountant. And I am, I got a degree in mechanical engineering. So we read and write in English pretty well. And so I understand the process, but I also am very thankful to have been able to witness my dad' ; s courage and his sheer determination to succeed. And the thing I mentioned to you earlier, that getting a good education is extremely important, it' ; s the foundation. But what I learned from my dad is it' ; s much, so much more. Because my dad was not an educated man. The reason I say he' ; s not an educated man is because due to war and whatnot, he had to give up. He didn' ; t go to...He quit school the age of 13 to take care of families and whatnot. But he' ; s the most intelligent man I know. But here in America, just for me to be able to witness...he' ; s not a man of many words, but a man of action. So what I learned from him, and this is something I share with a lot of students that I talk to now, I say, " ; You learn your ABCs, you get your A' ; s, your B' ; s in school, and try to get as many A' ; s as possible. But it' ; s truly about the five D' ; s that I' ; m going to tell you that will make you succeed in life and succeed in your career." ; And what I learned from him, he didn' ; t say this particularly, but just good action and just witnessing everything that he went through is the first D is desire. And then you follow up with determination, dedication, devotion. And the last one is discipline. Now, if you can achieve and exercise those five D' ; s along with a good education, you will succeed in life. And so with all that, I knew that in order for us to execute on our master plan, I knew I had to work with the city government. I knew I have to get in touch with them and make sure they know what we' ; re trying to do and for me to seek help from them. I believe in partnership. I believe in collaboration. I think there' ; s so much we can do together. Once we are able to partner up and collaborate. And so I was the one who just reached out to the city of Grand Prairie. I remember vividly going to one of the meetings, and I was very nervous, extremely nervous. I mean, it didn' ; t matter if I had an engineering degree or whatnot. It' ; s kind of hard to prepare yourself to go in there and talk in front of the mayors and all the councilman and whatnot. And I' ; m Asian, too. I' ; m walking there and I believe it' ; s all white gentlemen. And there was- except for one lady, Ruthie Jackson. And I told them what I plan on doing, what my family' ; s planning on doing. And we would like to work with the city and get some help. And believe it or not, we were able to get an abatement from the city of Grand Prairie to develop that part of property. And they were very happy. They were very welcoming. And, you know, it just... the partnership between myself and the city of Grand Prairie has been phenomenal, and they have been very welcoming. But in every relationship, people ask me...In every relationship it takes two. If you want them to accept you, you have to accept them. You have to welcome them. And just because I opened the door, if the other party doesn' ; t walk in, it won' ; t work. And so it' ; s a relationship that we have to continue to work on. There are things that I believe the city of Grand Prairie can do better, and there are things that I know that I can do better, but we' ; re working together to get there. And I think the mayor of the city of Grand Prairie, Mayor Ron Jensen has been phenomenal. I think his love for people, of all people, helps with what we' ; re trying to do at Asia Times Square. And that' ; s why when they know what I' ; m trying to do with my business...Yeah, at the end of the day, it' ; s a business. I want to be profitable, but we want to do more than just that. And so, whenever we host an event, other dignitaries come to support us and just working together to make our community much better. |00:48:54| Brody I noticed that Asia Times Square is listed as a, you know, a tourist attraction in the city of Grand Prairie' ; s website. How, what are some other ways that that partnership has surprised you? |00:49:09| Loh Oh, yes. As you know, for the tourism department and I want to give a shout out to Sarah Dedeluk. She' ; s with the tourism department and, the city manager, Tom Hart, he retired. And so the new city manager is Steve Dye. He' ; s a good friend of mine. We became friends when he was the Grand Prairie police chief. And our relationship just continued to develop. It' ; s just so much easier when your vision and your purpose are in line. And you know, Sarah, she has brought so many different tourism departments from different cities and county to come visit Asia Times Square. And I would give them a tour. And every time I give them a tour, I would always get back an email from El Paso or whomever saying, " ; Oh, that was one of my favorite sites to visit because there' ; s so much there." ; There is truly a lot at Asia Times Square that you can check out. I' ; ll give you, for instance, why we called it " ; Asia Times Square" ; you already know. And then I kind of mentioned to you, my mission is " ; Preserving Tradition, Promoting Culture." ; But if you take a step back before you even enter Asia Times Square, just step back and take a look at the two buildings side by side, you will notice which building is preserving tradition and which building is promoting culture, because preserving tradition is the building with the Hong Kong Marketplace, the grocery store and everything in that grocery store is more authentic, more traditional, and even to the design of the building has a traditional Asian look. And then you look on the other side is promoting culture. That design is more modern. It has an Asian flair, but it' ; s more modern. And that building has the ballroom that we host so many cultural events, that we' ; re promoting culture. So there' ; s a lot. In addition, I keep on telling you that I love preserving tradition and one of the things- why we host so many events at Asia Times Square- it' ; s not just for the mainstream, it' ; s not just for the non-Asian to understand why we celebrate what we celebrate, but also to continue that tradition for the next generation. Because the American born Asians are slowly losing their roots, and we don' ; t want to do that. We' ; ve got to make sure they understand where they come from, who they are. So when you look at the two buildings, one building is actually higher than the other building. So the " ; Preserving Tradition" ; building, which is the Hong Kong Marketplace building, is actually lower than the " ; Promoting Culture" ; which is for the younger generation. So it' ; s like the root is always at the bottom and a branch, the flowers all that is going on top. So when you look at our building, not many people know that, but we specifically design it such that there is a roof that connects one building to another building and there' ; s an incline rising up as well. |00:52:19| Brody That' ; s really thoughtful. |00:52:21| Loh Yeah. Thank you. |00:52:23| Brody On that note, we' ; re in the midst right now of Lunar New Year season. Tell me about how Asia Times Square celebrates Lunar New Year. |00:52:32| Loh We celebrate. I hope we' ; re at a point where people understand that if you want to celebrate Lunar New Year or to come to this Lunar New Year celebration, you have to come to Asia Times Square, because we really put a lot of time and effort into it. This is a... we just finished our 16th year hosting the event and it just seems like it' ; s getting bigger. And I' ; m proud to say that this past two, three weekends has been the most well attended celebration. We' ; ve seen so many non-Asians visiting our facility to celebrate, and for me to see them go into a Vietnamese gift shop or Lao or Cambodian gift shop and buy those traditional Vietnamese outfits. And we' ; re talking about a White guy and a Black lady going there, buying those outfits, and try it on and celebrate with us. That is such a beautiful sight for me. And then the other thing is for me to see the seniors, the grandma and grandpa smiling and laughing because they' ; re reliving that precious moment that they celebrate back home. And then also to see the younger kids just having fun, doing firecrackers and whatnot. It is truly my favorite time of the year. We' ; ve just been so blessed to have so much love and support from our community. You know, like Channel 8, always have me on Good Morning Texas always have me on, Daybreak. Fox Four News came out and did a show about how we celebrate it. And then just for me to be able to explain to the mainstream what is the red envelope for? What is the significance of firecracker dance and lion dancing? It' ; s just beautiful that people are more accepting our culture and our traditions. |00:54:33| Brody So you mentioned firecrackers and lion dance. What other, including those, what things do you have that go on that people come and watch? |00:54:42| Loh We bring in a lot of entertainers. That' ; s a must. We have to bring in a lot of entertainers. We love to sing and dance. And we always try to bring the artists that our Vietnamese community love to listen to, grew up with. So we bring them too. And we invite many, many different cultural performances. Again, we' ; re preserving tradition, promoting culture. So when it' ; s Lunar New Year, we don' ; t just have Vietnamese dancers or Dragon dance, we have African, Nigerian dance team come in, and we' ; ve got K-Pop coming in, we' ; ve got the mariachi band come and sing and dance with us. Just anyone who wants to come and share their culture with us. Come on, come, and share with us. Because that' ; s what we' ; re about. We want to celebrate unity. We want to celebrate diversity. So the more the merrier. We have a list where anyone who wants to come and perform, they want to showcase their talent, to showcase their culture, we' ; re more than happy to bring them on the stage and showcase them. |00:55:53| Brody That' ; s great. Moving in a slightly different direction, when you got to Texas and you got to Dallas or Arlington, what was the nature or size of the Asian community and how would you characterize the growth to now? |00:56:14| Loh Wow. It was small. It was definitely small. I can tell you that in Arlington, it' ; s still a higher Asian population than in city of Grand Prairie. But when we decided to move to Grand Prairie and open a business there, there were less than five Asian businesses there. And the Asian population in the city of Grand Prairie at that time was probably 1%, if that much. Now we' ; re close to 10% in population in the city of Grand Prairie. Just Asia Times Square alone has 70 Asian business owners from less than a handful. Now you have 70 Asian businesses. So it has grown tremendously. Dallas-Fort Worth has grown tremendously, and we' ; re benefiting from that. So, yeah, it' ; s just the growth has just been phenomenal, and I hope it can continue. But if it continues, we' ; ll need to have better infrastructure investment for sure. |00:57:20| Brody What do you mean? |00:57:22| Loh You know, just traffic and the way we handle business because we have to be prepared if the growth continues. Sometimes when a business is not prepared for the growth, it can backfire, and you won' ; t be able to sustain it. So you always have to make improvement. I always share with entrepreneurs. You know, everyone always thinks about, you know, making as much money and saving. And I said, " ; No, you' ; ve got to reinvest those money into your own property if you want to sustain." ; So I' ; m a huge believer of reinvestment, reinvesting, not just repairing and renovating. But you' ; ve got to reinvest into your own property and your own product to continue to grow. |00:58:14| Brody The last few years in Dallas have been rough for restaurants, especially because first we had the tornado, then COVID, and all the labor shortages and supply chain issues. How has your business been affected by any of those challenges? |00:58:32| Loh Yeah, labor is a huge challenge for us. Labor is a huge challenge for us, and I think that was part of the reason that we went ahead and made an improvement to invest in self-checkout for the grocery store. But just besides that, other departments, and other businesses that we have are suffering from lack of labor, shortages of labor. But we' ; ve just got to continue to try to improve. You know, due to COVID, I' ; m pretty sure everywhere you go, there' ; s always signage on the restaurants or wherever, " ; Short of staff, please be patient." ; You know, and I think the COVID-19 pandemic, the silver lining, I do believe there are more people who value families and are more willing to be more patient than before. So that that is the silver lining. But, you know, the some of the other tragedies that comes from it is something that we' ; re going to continue to try to work through and get better at. |00:59:37| Brody You know, during the initial, you know, COVID period in early 2020, I assume Hong Kong Marketplace was considered an essential business. So did you stay open? What did that feel like during that time period? |00:59:54| Loh Yes, we definitely stayed open. The business grew and COVID was just so new and so scary too. Everyone was concerned. And I think we, I' ; m very proud of how we operate as a business. We' ; re always trying to be as transparent with our customers. And there was a time when one of our employees, we found out was not well and then we asked him to get a check and was tested positive for COVID. So, what we decided to do was, we just make a public announcement and we' ; re going to close the business, hired a third party to come in and sanitize, did whatever they did to get us ready to reopen for business. Many people would say, " ; Why would you do that?" ; Because at that time, when COVID is so scary and then when you hear of a business that someone there has COVID, what' ; s your initial reaction? " ; I would never go there. I' ; m not going to go. I' ; m going to stay away from there." ; And what we decided to do is to be transparent. " ; Hey, we' ; re not going to put anybody at risk." ; And we just- business is business, but we don' ; t know what' ; s going on. So we just go ahead and let people know. " ; Sorry...Yeah. One of our..." ; And the reaction I got from that was pretty phenomenal. People were so thankful that we stepped up, and our business has...I think because they know that we are always going to try to do the right thing. We cannot always make everybody happy ; I think and that' ; s a known fact. But we will always do our very best to do the right thing. So that and then in addition to that, when do you remember when everyone was going out and trying to grab as many toilet papers as possible? So we did the opposite thing. Luckily with our buying power, we were able to secure loads of toilet paper before it ran out. And instead of putting a limit on how much people can buy, we put a limit on how much a senior can get the toilet paper for free. So we were handing out free toilet paper when everyone else was increasing the price or whatnot. So for the seniors specifically, we just said, you know, we want to take care of you guys. So we did that, and we got...I think that too for the grocery store, doing the COVID was something that I' ; m very proud of our team to do what we did. |01:03:08| Brody It sounds like as a family-owned business, you really cultivate that relationship and trust with your customers, even though it' ; s grown so much in multiple branches. But did you have to pivot to do curbside and things like that as well? |01:03:25| Loh We did. We tried to accommodate those, but it was just extremely difficult to do that when you were already short of staff. And not only were you short of staff, but that your business has increased because it' ; s an essential business. So it was extremely difficult phase for us. And I' ; ll be honest with you, we were blessed. We' ; re pretty successful in what we do, but we' ; re not the Walmart or the chain store with the deep pockets and whatnot. We are still a family-owned business. We consider ourselves small business, so there were a lot of challenges that we had to go through. Installing those plastic guards between the customer and the cashier, make sure everyone have masks, we bought in the thermostat where people can scanned their temperature before they come in. So we did all of that to the best of our ability. But we tried to do curbside, but it was a little bit challenge. We did it. It just took us a little bit longer because we were just so short on staff. |01:04:33| Brody It makes sense. As a family-owned business, do you guys still see yourselves as a " ; mom and pop" ; shop or how would you characterize it? |01:04:43| Loh The answer is yes. Yes. So, you know, when our business continued to grow and now, you know, our business is more- I concentrate more on the real estate side for the family business. And I have a property management company as well. And I love structure. I love structure. But I do not want the structure...I do not want it to be so structured to the point where we lose the family ties and the family way of doing business. Every team member that comes in is my family, is my new family member. Everybody from the produce department, seafood department, janitors, whomever- they are now my family, and I just don' ; t want to lose that. I think the way we want to operate is how I always hear my dad said, when you own a business, our vendors are our friends, our friends, our customer, our friends are our families, you know, and our customers are our friends and family. And we want to have that kind of relationship with our customer. And to be in business for 36 years, that means we' ; re doing something right. And I don' ; t want to change that. I love our customers. I love how much they have supported us through the years, and I want to continue to have that kind of relationship. I want our staff to have that kind of relationship with our customers as well. Are we going to make everybody happy? No. I think it' ; s impossible. |01:06:34| Brody That' ; s great. I' ; m just thinking about. This time period that we' ; re talking about from COVID and till until now, we' ; ve seen a lot in the news and a lot of really tragic instances of anti-Asian violence or rhetoric. With a very publicly Asian business and being a hub where Asians gather and where non-Asians also enjoy Asian culture, how have you dealt with some of those rhetorical and unfortunate violent incidents? |01:07:21| Loh Yeah. So like I said earlier, I think America is a great nation, the greatest nation. But she' ; s not perfect. She' ; s trying to become perfect, but she' ; s not perfect. So there are dark moments and incidents that I' ; ve experienced. Even, I remember vividly today, many years ago, when I was driving to my parking lot at my Dallas location business, I just drove there. I own, my family owned the building, owned the parking lot, but yet this non-Asian guy drives up to me and tell me to " ; Get the F--- out of this country." ; And that hurts. And the same incident happened to my own dad. And it was painful, but I think we can continue to learn from that experience and try to do better by spreading love and by hosting events. I think that' ; s why I' ; m so passionate about doing, hosting the events that I host. I really want people to understand who we are. It' ; s very unfortunate as Asian American to be recognized or be considered as American. I have many great friends. They know that. And I share with them. I share with my White friends, with my Black friends, with my Italian friend and Mexican friend. I share with them that you know your children and you the longer you stay, you will be recognized as an American. But for Asian American to be considered as American, it is still a work in progress. I' ; ve done the tests just for fun. Some of my friends and their kids' ; friends. I say, " ; I want you to close your eyes. I want you to close your eyes." ; And they close their eyes and I say, " ; Think of one of the greatest Americans." ; And then I tell them, " ; Who do you pick?" ; Some guy would say, " ; Michael Jordan." ; Some would have Abraham Lincoln or whomever. But none of them said any Asian name in there. And we were talking about even our own Asian kids are thinking that way because that' ; s how they' ; ve been taught. And that' ; s how we' ; ve been looked at which is we are seen, but we' ; re not seen as American. So I think, again, even though I say all this, I' ; m just extremely blessed to be American. She' ; s not perfect, but there' ; s no other place I would rather be. Can she improve? Definitely. And I think it' ; s going to require all of us, all the business owners, all the people, communities to get involved and just kind of understand one another more. And the thing I share with you, my purpose is to replace ignorance with acceptance. And we' ; re going to work towards that. And we are making progress. I really believe so. And, you know, due to COVID, when the anti-Asian hate crime was on the rise, we decided to host an event and celebrate Asian Heritage Month. In the month of May is when we do Asian Heritage Fest, and that' ; s when we recognize all the great Asian Americans who have contributed so much to this society, to this country. Last year, when we did it, I told I made a speech and I said that I shared with the public and there were many dignitaries there as well. I said that I read a report that Asian population is on the rise. But even in, I think the report was done in 2009, where the total Asian population in America was like 5.4% or whatever, 5.4% population in America. But do you know how much we contribute to the economic impact? 7.8%. That' ; s huge. From a, if we' ; re only a 5.4%, but we are responsible for 7.8% of the economy. That is huge. Right. And so I think people need to start just need to appreciate, celebrate, and just welcome. It is time for us to not be overlooked. I think as an Asian American, it sometimes feels very unfair. And I hate to say that, but it is unfair that an Asian American, especially with an Asian last name that are trying to apply for scholarship, even if they get straight A' ; s, is very hard for us to get it. Had we been not and it' ; s just very unfair at times where I see non-Asian will say that we' ; re the minority- " ; model minority" ; and I hate that terminology too- " ; model minority." ; But then some of the minority group say that we' ; re not colored people, So I don' ; t know where we are, you know, so it' ; s just, it' ; s a work in progress and I think everybody needs to continue to work hard. And I can assure you that that is one of my passionate projects. I want people to unite, and I don' ; t want it to be an anti-Asian hate crime. I want it to be just an anti-hate project. You know when the Dallas mayor recognized one day for that? I was like, you know, one day? So anyway, we just need to work towards replacing all the hatred in our society. And I think sometimes, it' ; s just the negativity is what sells. And I' ; m going to do everything I can to celebrate all of positivity in this great nation. |01:14:14| Brody That' ; s fantastic and really well said. To you, what does it mean to be an American? |01:14:21| Brody You know, I think American, to me, and the American, a lot of people, this is where people are so...oh, I don' ; t know what' ; s the word? I' ; m losing my thought. But, you know, America has nothing to do with color. It does not have anything to do with color. I think in America has to do everything about the spirit of being a good person, the spirit of taking a full advantage of all the opportunities this great nation provides, and to succeed in life, in our career, and to be able to give back. You know, when an American is Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Bill, without knowing who I am, but their love for people, for humanity, is what drove them to sponsor my family from a refugee camp. We were in the refugee camp for nine months, waiting and not knowing where we' ; re going to be, but praying and hoping that we will be able to come to America. That' ; s an American right there. Without knowing, she- the love that she had, and she just sponsored and gave us the chance for a good life. And you know what that is? That' ; s my mission. And that' ; s to try to give back as much as I can. You attended our Lunar New Year banquet, and I shared with you that, you know, after my dad passed away, I created the Loh Foundation. L-O-H Love, Opportunity, Hope. And that' ; s what America' ; s about- love, opportunity, and hope. I am the proudest American I think you can think of. Because I don' ; t back away from saying that. And I' ; m proud to say that because I think I lived the American dream. You know, I came from literally nothing. And to be able for me to in my family, to be where we are and to be able to give back and continue to work hard to give back, I think that' ; s the American spirit. That' ; s what America is about. |01:16:40| Brody Really beautiful. What are some of the ways that the Loh Foundation gives back? |01:16:46| Loh Oh, I love just to see the kids. We give out scholarships to kids. Each and every year, we give out the scholarship and during the banquet, we just give out $10,000. But throughout the whole year, there are other opportunities that other charitable events seek out help and we donate to them. But giving out scholarships is one of my favorite things. And to hear their stories kind of reminds me of what I went through. And some of them were just so unbelievably talented, smart. And each and every time I give out a scholarship, I tell them that I want them to be successful so that they can continue to give out scholarships. I remember when I received my scholarship, it meant so much to me. I was so proud of myself to have received that. And I just want to be able to get that because I consider that a loan. And then when I' ; m going to pay that loan, I' ; m going to pay with a huge interest. And that' ; s why I encourage all the students who received the foundation scholarship to do that as well, keep the ball rolling. And then for our foundation, you know, we' ; re talking about love, spreading love, creating opportunities, and giving hope to all. So any nonprofit out there that can help us execute the mission, we would love to participate. And we will love the, we love helping out the homeless shelter. There' ; s a great organization out there that goes out and helps homeless. We help projects in overseas in Vietnam, that' ; s where I was born. And then there' ; s just so many domestic violence that need help. We' ; re there. The Police Association, as you can tell. Love the police. I love first responders and just the community in general. Just there' ; s a lot of things we can do to make our society better. And I just am very thankful and blessed that the Loh foundation can play a part in that. |01:19:02| Brody It' ; s great. Correct me if I' ; m wrong, but did I see a resolution commemorating Asia Times Square in the Texas Legislature? |01:19:12| Loh Yes. Yes. |01:19:13| Brody How did that come about? |01:19:17| Loh So, I am the first Asian to be a chairman of the Grand Prairie Chamber of Commerce. |01:19:27| Brody Congratulations. |01:19:28| Loh Thank you. That was a couple of years, a few years ago. Let' ; s not say how many years ago, but... And so when I was chairman, I worked closely with the president of the chamber, and we decided to create an Asian Business Council for the chamber. And we did that, and we hosted a number of events. And then Congressman... Oh, my God, I' ; m drawing a blank. I think it' ; s Congressman Barton attended the event and then he recognized Asia Times Square and the Loh family, and it' ; s actually recorded in the Library of Congress. And that was a very proud moment. And it' ; s just like I said, I' ; m just very happy and blessed to be able to do what we do. You know, when my dad passed away, I received an official US flag was flown at the Washington Capitol on the day that my dad passed away, and that was hand-delivered to me. So it' ; s actually folded in a case as well as a Texas flag that was flown in Austin State Capitol as well on the day that my dad passed away. |01:20:48| Brody And it' ; s really special. |01:20:49| Loh It' ; s extremely special. And, you know, I owe all that I' ; ve accomplished everything I did to Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Bill. They gave us a chance. My dad taught me everything that I know. It' ; s like I mentioned to you it was just his sheer determination and his work ethic is what I took most out of him. And then just being surrounded by good people, meeting you, meeting everybody. I just tried to learn from everybody I talk to. And I' ; m not talking about just people who are top officials and whatnot, just anyone that I talk to. I think each and every one have a special gift that I can learn. Even a kid, this small kid, they will see things that we wouldn' ; t see from their eyes and stuff. So like I said, my daughter taught me something, right? And it was a huge lesson that I learned from her. To replace ignorance with acceptance. Just bypass tolerance, let' ; s be acceptance. Now, I' ; m...I love to learn from people. I' ; m a student. I will always continue to be a student. And I think having that mindset makes me a better person. |01:22:09| Brody It' ; s a really nice spirit. And thank you. I appreciate you giving me a compliment as well. Well, we' ; ve talked about a lot of things today. And is there anything that I didn' ; t ask or that you' ; d like to add to this interview? |01:22:24| Loh No, I just I' ; m very blessed and thankful that you' ; re doing this interview. I feel extremely honored for me to have this opportunity to share my story with your audience. It' ; s a blessing. And hopefully those who are listening can continue to do good, succeed in their life and in their career, and do positive things that will make our society a better place. |01:22:54| Brody Well, thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom. I appreciate it. |01:22:58| Loh Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Matthew Loh, January 25, 2023
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Chinese
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2023-01-23
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Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Madan Goyal
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5.4 Interview with Madan Goyal, April 15, 2022 2021oh002_di_008 01:03:10 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Indian Madan Goyal Betsy Brody m4a oh_audio_dig_goyal_madan20220415.m4a 1:|14(7)|25(4)|41(8)|51(6)|62(4)|77(4)|88(2)|103(5)|115(1)|125(4)|139(1)|148(12)|159(3)|165(2)|176(8)|185(3)|202(6)|212(7)|223(13)|233(14)|248(6)|260(5)|271(4)|285(5)|306(1)|318(8)|329(12)|343(10)|354(7)|363(8)|374(7)|384(1)|397(3)|407(5)|418(9)|427(15)|438(2)|449(1)|465(14)|480(3)|488(2)|504(4)|516(6)|528(11)|535(13)|547(9)|561(1)|570(4)|581(6)|601(2)|614(12)|623(4)|633(8)|641(2)|655(3)|660(9)|669(11)|676(11)|690(3)|704(2)|714(5)|727(8)|742(9) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/163030 Aviary audio 3 Introduction Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Indian ; Texas--History 35 Coming to the United States from India India ; Thapar College ; Utah ; Xerox 226 Indian community in Dallas in 1971/India Association movie nights Dallas ; India Association ; Indian community ; movies ; SMU ; Southern Methodist University 453 Fitting in in Dallas assimilation ; culture ; Dallas ; first generation ; neighborhood ; neighbors ; racism ; Texas 669 Opening India House restaurant in Dallas chefs ; cooks ; entrepreneur ; ethnic food ; family run restaurant ; Hickory House Barbecue ; India House ; Indian food ; Indian restaurants ; labor ; Lufthansa ; naan ; remodel ; SMU ; Souther Methodist University ; tandoors 32.83670088441465, -96.7743036355824 17 1273 Sourcing spices from Indian groceries in New York groceries ; Houston ; India groceries ; local ingredients ; New York ; spices ; suppliers 1402 Permits and liquor sales alcohol ; health department ; health inspection ; Hickory House Barbecue ; liquor ; permits ; Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission 1545 Customers from Southern Methodist University and advertising advertising ; bridge ; curiosity ; customers ; Indian community ; Indian food ; Indian restaurant ; SMU ; Southern Methodist University ; Yellow Pages 1727 Most popular dishes at India House bridge ; competition ; educate ; education ; Indian restaurant ; menu ; shish kebab ; tandoor ; tandoori chicken ; vegetarian 2008 Responsibilities to employees and customers business ; customers ; educate ; education ; entrepreneur ; responsibilities ; responsible 2150 Customer interest in learning how to cook Indian dishes cooking ; educate ; education ; Indian grocery store ; spices 2300 Closing India House due to real estate boom in Dallas expansion ; growth ; landlord ; lease ; real estate ; shutdown 2365 Taste of Dallas and sharing Indian culture through food bridge ; culture ; curiosity ; Dallas Restaurant Association ; Diwali ; ethnic food ; Indian culture ; Indian food ; SMU ; Southern Methodist University ; Taste of Dallas 2588 Serving authentic Indian food authentic ; authenticity ; diverse ; diversity ; Indian food ; Indian restaurant ; North India ; spices 2767 Special events for Diwali, New Year's Eve, and other celebrations celebrations ; Diwali 2812 Introducing the lunch buffet at India House bridge ; buffet ; curiosity ; educate ; education ; India House ; Indian food ; lunch 2951 Changing Hickory House Barbecue to India House entrepreneur ; expansion ; growth ; Hickory House Barbecue ; India House ; landlord ; lease 3028 Reflections on restaurants being manufacturing, retail, and service businesses business ; restaurants ; tandoori chicken 3129 Impact of the airport/Changes in Dallas airport ; business ; curiosity ; India House 3262 Observations about the Asian community in Dallas Asian community ; India Association ; Indian community ; IT ; University of Texas at Dallas 3399 Celebrities at India House celebrities ; culture ; educate ; education ; Indian culture 3581 India House cooks featured at Neiman Marcus Fortnight and Fairmont Hotel India week cooking class ; Fortnight ; hotels ; Maharajah ; Mumtaz ; Neiman Marcus ; Ruben Buster |00:00:03| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is April 15th, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time, Mr. Madan Goyal. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Hello, Mr. Goyal, thank you for sitting for this interview. Let' ; s just start out and talk about where and when were you born? |00:00:39| Goyal Well, Madan Goyal. I was born in North India, in state of Punjab and in a small town there. |00:00:55| Brody What brought you to Texas? |00:00:57| Goyal Well, after studies in India, I came to U.S. as a student and after finishing my studies, I got jobs in Pennsylvania and in Rochester, New York. And there, I was working for Xerox Corporation. Xerox moved a whole division to Dallas and I was one of the persons in that division. And that' ; s what brought me to Dallas. |00:01:37| Brody Where did you go to school? |00:01:40| Goyal In India? I went to Thapar College, which is an engineering college in Patiala in Punjab state. And from there I came to Utah State University in upstate Utah, and after finishing there, I went to the- my first job was in Pennsylvania. |00:02:03| Brody So Utah was probably quite a difference from India. |00:02:07| Goyal Very much so. Well, anything was different from India, but especially Utah, because as we all know, Utah is predominantly Mormon community, and so most of my friends and classmates and roommates in the dorm were all LDS faith. So which is very different than the mainstream Christianity, but so in that sense, you' ; re right that it was very different. |00:02:46| Brody What was Dallas like when you got here? |00:02:50| Goyal Dallas was nice. We liked it. |00:02:55| Brody What year was that? |00:02:57| Goyal 72. We came here in 1972, and we liked it. I think maybe seventy one. Oh yeah, we came here in 1971 and we liked it. It was more like India and Punjab, weather-wise, so no snows. Even though summers were a little hot, but it wasn' ; t that bad since we could always get inside and almost everything, including the cars, were all air conditioned. So we didn' ; t have any problems with the heat, but we didn' ; t miss the snows of upstate New York. |00:03:45| Brody Were there a lot of Indians here in 1971 when you arrived? |00:03:50| Goyal Well, I wouldn' ; t say a lot, probably less than 100. We pretty much met everybody. There were five or six families came with Xerox. So we already knew them. Then we made friends with the other families who were already here. But I would estimate it was total less than 100 families, from South Asia, including a couple families from Pakistan and the rest from India. |00:04:30| Brody So 1971, well before the internet and everything. How did you find other Indian families back then? |00:04:38| Goyal Well, typically we started from the university. In the SMU or Southern Methodist University. Of course, they had some students and they had some faculty members. That' ; s how we got to find out who else was in town and whether they had any programs or. And then that' ; s when the India Association, which is a nonprofit cultural, historical organization that got established in those early 70s. |00:05:18| Brody Were you active in the India Association? |00:05:21| Goyal Yes. At that time, I was, but later on and of course, as the population grew a lot more leadership came in. |00:05:32| Brody What kind of things did the- not just the India Association- but what sorts of things did, did the Indian community do to socialize and get together during those days in the early 70s? |00:05:46| Goyal The India Association did the movies. That was one of the things. They would bring the movies mostly. Many times we showed the movie- Indian movies at the Southwestern Medical School and one of their auditoriums because there were some doctors also who were Indian doctors who were and they could arrange to use of the auditorium. And then it used to be in the big reels, not digital. So the reels will come in in the mail and then somebody will take it. And we had a projector and that' ; s how we played and watched movies. So it was pretty popular because that essentially was really the only Indian outlet to and with the small community. |00:06:49| Brody Right? Was it usually a full house? |00:06:54| Goyal Well, I think most of the time pretty much everybody in town showed up. |00:07:01| Brody Yeah. Were they current movies that were popular in India or? |00:07:05| Goyal Yes. Indian nation movies which are popular there. These days, you know the Indian movies are released on the same day here as in India. But in those days, the reels, they would be still popular movies, but not the latest ones. |00:07:30| Brody Right. Makes sense. Tell me about your experience...I mean, if it was a small Indian community, obviously you had a lot of contact with people who were already here, other, other communities, native Texans, et cetera. Tell me about your experience, sort of as you got to Dallas fitting in to your neighborhood, workplace, et cetera. |00:07:53| Goyal Well, most of the time you spend is, outside of the office, at home is with the neighbors. So we, of course, when we got our house, built a house, or moved into the house, we met the neighbors. So that was...And since we had the school age kids going to the schools and meeting through the PTA, the other parents, which essentially were from the neighborhood since it was elementary school age kids. So we met the neighbors and other parents that way in the neighborhood. So it was good meeting them and realizing, well, how Texas is different even than New York, where we moved with Xerox. |00:08:49| Brody What were some of the differences that you noticed or that you learned about? |00:08:52| Goyal Well, I think some of the difference was people were a little more open, here, than I thought in New York. You know, more friendly in a sense and more inquisitive because in New York state and in upstate New York, there were a lot of Indians and other ethnic communities. Whereas in Dallas, it was not so much so. Very few, again, very few Indians, or for that matter other cultural families. |00:09:42| Brody What were the types of things that your new friends and neighbors were curious about? |00:09:48| Goyal Oh, everything from dress you wear, to, you know what you eat. So, they were curious and interested in just...Because it' ; s so different than the Texas culture. |00:10:11| Brody Did you try to maintain for your family, for your kids, some of the traditions? |00:10:18| Goyal As much as we could? Yes, because I think first generation Americans, they typically want to keep as much as they can of their own culture and try to pass it on to the next generation. |00:10:38| Brody Sure. Did you encounter any racism or any difficulties like that? |00:10:43| Goyal I wouldn' ; t say I encountered any racism, you know, with the neighbors or work or anywhere else. And I think it was more curious, our interpretation of some things, but not outright racism. |00:11:09| Brody So you were working at Xerox, but I know that you also started a restaurant. Can you tell me about the path that led you to starting the restaurant? |00:11:19| Goyal Well, when we moved here to Dallas, there was no Indian restaurant. The most ethnic restaurants were either Mexican or Chinese, and hardly any other ethnic food was available in the restaurants. So we thought, Well, that, that' ; s who would be...Family-wise or otherwise, I' ; m kind of an entrepreneur. A streak or DNA. And so I thought, " ; Well that should be good." ; Dallas is a big city and it' ; s a relatively...is cosmopolitan and getting to be cosmopolitan. They, so they should have enough market. We didn' ; t do any market study, but well, just gut feeling that should be enough market of people who' ; ll want to try. After all, they like...The Mexican food is so popular, so they might try the Indian food. So that was kind of reasoning and thinking behind it. And then it wasn' ; t really that easy to start an Indian restaurant at that time. |00:12:50| Brody Why is that? |00:12:52| Goyal Well, first there were no Indian cooks or chefs available anywhere. I myself am not a chef, or a cook. And my wife, and she had no desire to be working in the restaurant. And so I had to bring the cooks from India...who came to Dallas. And in those days, since of scarcity of the labor force, meaning availability of Indian cooks, we could get them the residency permit, the cooks who came from India. So I started, I got a restaurant which used to be a barbecue place called Hickory House Barbecue on Mockingbird, and that seemed like a right location to me since it was close to SMU, Southern Methodist University. And I felt that, well, that would be a good location since we could get the students if we needed the staff part time or full time. Plus the SMU faculty and others, they probably traveled and they probably would be interested. And the Park Cities nearby there. So, the location was on Mockingbird near Central Expressway. |00:14:46| Brody Okay. Did you live close to there as well? |00:14:48| Goyal No. I lived in North Dallas near Midway and Forest. |00:14:57| Brody So the no, having no cooks, that was the first challenge. What were some other challenges that you faced in starting the restaurant? |00:15:06| Goyal Well, the others was getting the tandoors. Tandoor is an Indian clay oven which is very typical of Indian food cooking. And so we had to get those by air from the Delhi on Lufthansa. Lufthansa delivered it. They didn' ; t break on, in the way. But then we installed it. So I started, got this barbecue place while we were working on opening the Indian restaurant. So, the barbecue place ran till we got the cooks, we got tandoors, and we shut down the barbecue place and converted it to India House. |00:16:03| Brody Wow. So you started, you came to Texas from India and in your path to starting an Indian restaurant, also started your restaurant career as a barbecue guy? |00:16:15| Goyal Yes. |00:16:16| Brody That' ; s interesting. |00:16:18| Goyal That barbecue place, Hickory House Barbecue. And the cook that was running the barbecue place, we kept him. He learned the Indian cooking from the other two Indian cooks that we brought home in India. So he learned the cooks, and then we had all three of them working there. |00:16:45| Brody That' ; s really...That' ; s really interesting. So in both cases, the finding, the cooks and buying the tandoor from India while you were here, those seem like logistically difficult challenges, what were the steps? How did you go about? |00:17:03| Goyal Well, yes, it was. Then I just contacted the cooks. I called the home town. My parents were still there and others. Told them, and they said, " ; Oh yeah, we got very good cooks in town." ; And so we got one of them was from my hometown. The other one was from Delhi and that we knew from talking to some other restaurateurs in New York City. Because New York City had several Indian restaurants talking to them. So we got the same way, talking to them, they said, " ; Well, if you really want to do the tandoors, you have to come." ; They put us in touch with some tandoor people in India. I got tandoors from them and then, you know, Lufthansa Air brought it. They did the packing and all that. |00:18:12| Brody And then once it got here, the installation, I' ; m sure that there was nobody in town who had ever installed a tandoor before. How did that go or how did you arrange that? |00:18:22| Goyal Well, I had the both cooks who were here by that time also. They come to Dallas. So in remodeling, we arranged so the cooks decided where and how, and I told them we wanted a window so people could watch the tandoors and your cooking in tandoors and kabobs and kitchen, chicken and all that. So we found the place where we wanted to and then put the glass windows on two sides of that area. And then once they installed the tandoors then around it put in some insulation and break and making the top. So essentially, me and the construction people did it. The cooks guided them that how they wanted. |00:19:28| Brody Was that window a big hit among customers? |00:19:33| Goyal I think so. A lot of people...Since, you know, that was so different, so unique. So a lot of people will go up to the window and watch the cooks, preparing the naans and other tandoor breads, because it' ; s so unique. And the cook takes the dough and slaps it on the side of the tandoor and it cooks and then it picks it up with the fork type of thing. So it was interesting. A lot of people found it very intriguing. |00:20:13| Brody Yeah, there' ; s an article in the Dallas Morning News about the tandoors at your restaurant and exactly that how the naan were prepared and so on. So I think it sounds like it was...It got a lot of attention. So was your family or yourself ever involved in any type of food related business before? |00:20:33| Goyal No. My parents and uncles, aunts, they all been in business, but not the restaurant business as such in India. |00:20:49| Brody Did you have a business partner or anything like that? |00:20:51| Goyal No. Initially I just did my own because it was so different and so new. I didn' ; t even try to get a partner...If I' ; m the one who wants to do it, I should take the responsibility. |00:21:13| Brody So in starting the business and or any business, there is a lot of nuts and bolts things that you have to do. So of course, sourcing things like a tandoor, you went through people and contacts you had in India. How about on this end, were there...How did you get the ingredients? How did you get those types of things? |00:21:33| Goyal Well, that' ; s another... We did not have any source of the spices or the other things that the typical Indian restaurant requires, which is not common for an American kitchen. So I had to get almost all those spices from New York. We' ; ll order them. New York had several stores at that time, even in the 70s, who sold Indian groceries and spices and other Indian items. So we had to get almost all those from there. And later on, a few years later, we could get some from Houston. Some stores opened in Houston. So but initially everything was coming to. |00:22:38| Brody Well, that sounds complicated to gauge how much to buy and, you know, refilling when you run out. |00:22:45| Goyal But thankfully, most of the Indian items, they had a the long life cycle. Like the spices or things like that. So you don' ; t need to worry, too, because the vegetables and the meats and all those we got locally. But the items we were getting from New York, they do not, you know, go bad. They were not the kind which will go, have a short life. |00:23:20| Brody That' ; s, that' ; s lucky. What about permits and things like that? |00:23:24| Goyal Well, it was like any other typical in restaurants, so we had to get the restaurant permit and then the health department to check. So just like every other restaurant, so in that sense, it was no different than running a barbecue place or Mexican restaurant or a Chinese restaurant. |00:23:52| Brody And the space itself, of course, it was the Hickory House Barbecue. Did you own that? Rent that? |00:24:00| Goyal No, we rented the space. It had two dining rooms and one bar area and the kitchen. So the kind of four sections? |00:24:16| Brody Did you serve alcohol? |00:24:18| Goyal Yes. We did. |00:24:19| Brody From the beginning. |00:24:19| Goyal From the beginning, yes. |00:24:21| Brody Well, at that time, what was the process for that in terms of permits and regulations? |00:24:29| Goyal Well, the permit, it was just again the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission. You have to submit the application, apply for it and they' ; ll approve it. There' ; s no restrictions on this. You...I mean, I don' ; t know what they check, whether they check your criminal record or whatnot. But you know, we made the application and that was it. |00:24:56| Brody For a time in Dallas, there was, in terms of serving alcohol, a requirement to be a member. Have you know, for patrons to purchase a membership? Was that in effect at that time? |00:25:08| Goyal Well, it was in effect that time. It is still in effect, but it' ; s in what is called the " ; dry areas" ; where the liquor sales are not permitted. So downtown Dallas area or the Mockingbird Lane area was always where you could serve the drinks. Even Hickory House used to serve the drinks and the restaurants in the neighborhood, they all sold liquor. |00:25:40| Brody So that didn' ; t affect you at all because of your location. So you mentioned that in deciding on that location, you really were thinking that SMU faculty and staff and students themselves might be both patrons and, and maybe employees of the restaurant. Did that, did that pan out? Was that a good plan? |00:26:04| Goyal I think so in many ways. Well, I know the students, many of them work at the India House. Full time or part time, and I' ; m sure a lot of faculty came. You know, I used to be there at the restaurant pretty much all the time. Evenings. And then so I saw a lot of that same effect. |00:26:38| Brody Were you still working at Xerox as well? |00:26:40| Goyal And the first year I was, then I left Xerox and started this full time. Yeah. So while I was working at Xerox, I' ; ll come in the evenings. At dinner time. I won' ; t go there at lunchtime. The restaurant was open both lunch and dinner. |00:27:05| Brody So in terms of your customers, in addition to SMU, the SMU community, who were your customers and how did they find you? |00:27:12| Goyal Well, in those days, finding was...Essentially before the internet era, was either in the Yellow Pages or other more restaurant type of magazines or fliers and all. And that' ; s what I did also. I put in some ads in Yellow Pages of course, and then in various dining publications. |00:27:51| Brody So who were your primary customers, were they primarily Indians or? |00:27:56| Goyal No. Well, the Indian population was so small, even if they each one of them came in once a month, it probably wouldn' ; t be enough. But the population came from almost, I think, every walk of life who were curious, who wanted or who heard about Indian food and wanted to try and saw that, " ; Hey, it' ; s now available locally. Let' ; s go try it." ; Or those who have traveled and may have seen it in London or some other place. Indian cuisine. So it was, you know, all various kinds of people that were. |00:28:47| Brody What were your biggest sellers? |00:28:49| Goyal I think, if I can remember correctly, probably, that the tandoori dishes, tandoori chicken or shish kebab. And vegetarians, even though there were very small percentage in those days, now vegetarianism is a lot more popular. But in those days, the vegetarians found it all. This was a nice place to go. They could get a good meal and be vegetarian. |00:29:29| Brody When you created your menu, what were some of your goals in, in sort of deciding which dishes would make it to the menu and which would not? |00:29:41| Goyal Well, it was more of a traditional menu. So there was nothing " ; breaking news" ; type of dishes that we had. It was not like a " ; chef driven." ; It was more like the " ; cook driven" ; kind of menu. And so we had all the standard dishes, which you expect at a typical Indian restaurant, the tandooris and chicken were. And the vegetables and then all the breads, rice and condiments. So. |00:30:33| Brody So. Since there hadn' ; t been an Indian restaurant in Dallas before and you all were the first, in some ways, you were at the introduction to Indian food for a lot of people. What, what was that experience like and how, you know, how did people react and how did you interact with people when they were unfamiliar with things that were on the menu? |00:30:59| Goyal Well, it was a lot of education for, to the customer. Many customers, and the staff spent a lot of time explaining dishes and what it means. What are the condiments or chutneys and or how the breads made. And then of course, they could see it if they wanted to. And because like you said, yes, it was a new experience for many customers. And so they kind of, I think they pretty well accepted and liked and saw the uniqueness in not only in the presentation, but also in the food and in the taste and all that. |00:31:52| Brody Yeah. I' ; ve been reviewing restaurant reviews from the time period, and there' ; s a consistent mention of the helpful staff and people being helpful in guiding people, customers through the menu and so on. So. Did you have any competition? |00:32:12| Goyal No, not initially the competition was every other restaurant, essentially. Because we did not have a- India House, was the first not only in Dallas or North Texas, but we were the first Indian restaurant in the whole state of Texas. |00:32:33| Brody Really? |00:32:34| Goyal Yeah. Because through these people that we were buying the Indian groceries and condiments in New York and other people. So about six months after we opened, a restaurant opened in Houston. So, and I' ; m sure they probably were getting...So talking to these suppliers, that' ; s all I know. Plus, you know, I visited Houston many times and visited that restaurant when it opened also so. And then when there was nothing in Austin or San Antonio at that time. So with those major four cities... |00:33:29| Brody What were the biggest challenges for you in opening, starting the business and staying in business? |00:33:39| Goyal Starting business, not knowing. You know, before that, I was essentially an employee at Xerox. So employee lifestyle is...our mindset is different than a business owner or an entrepreneur. So that was the first thing to shift that. And then realize that you have a responsibility not only to yourself or your family- as an employee, that' ; s all you really care about. But now you have a responsibility to your employees and even to your customers in a way. So that' ; s how it was different. |00:34:31| Brody So how would you characterize that responsibility? What, what did you feel responsible for to your employees and to your customers? |00:34:40| Goyal Well, to the employees, it was to make sure that they have the resources. They have been explained what is coming, if something is not available that particular day, that they understand. And then if they have any issues with the customer, which you know in real life happens, that they know how to be sure that customer is happy at the same time, the issue is resolved in a peace. So that was to the employees. To the customers, since many of them were new to the cuisine, new to this kind of food, to make sure they understand what it is and why certain things are done the way they are and what they can do, or how to prepare if they' ; re even interested to prepare at home themselves. |00:35:47| Brody Oh, that' ; s a that' ; s a good point. This time period, especially later on, late 70s, early 80s, there was a real growth in interest among people across the country in learning how to cook foods from other cultures and Asian cultures in particular. How did you, you know, you mentioned that educating your customers through your menu was part of it? How did you encourage or cultivate that- cooking? |00:36:20| Goyal That' ; s why...Many times they' ; ll ask, " ; Oh, well, what kind of spices? What would I need if I want to make this dish at home? Whatever it could be- a dal or a curry or a chicken dish. So we' ; ll explain it to them that it takes these kind of, you know, spices and then many to say, " ; Well, but where can I buy these?" ; So again, there was no Indian grocery stores which specialized in Indian foods and condiments and Indian things, so they' ; ll go to the regular grocery store and get some of those things. And if they were really keen on getting, they' ; ll get it from New York or Chicago sometimes, the dishes. |00:37:24| Brody In the life of the restaurant, did it ever get easier to get local, locally sourced ingredients? |00:37:32| Goyal As the time grew, by the time three or four years had passed and the grocery, the Indian grocery store opened in Dallas, and even though they may have been getting from New York, they are not big enough to import themselves directly from India. But then we could source them, support them, and get the spice locally, and pick it up or they will deliver it. Then, having shipped from New York. |00:38:08| Brody So where was that store? |00:38:10| Goyal It was on Preston and LBJ. |00:38:19| Brody Did you ever think about expanding or growing the restaurant? |00:38:23| Goyal No, I never thought...One reason was, you know, the real estate in the late 70s was booming in Dallas, so as soon as our lease expired, the landlord said, " ; No, they' ; re not going to renew it." ; And so we essentially shut down after the lease expired. |00:38:52| Brody What year was that? |00:38:53| Goyal I think it was 75 or 76. So and by that time, the another two, three Indian restaurants had opened at that time. |00:39:07| Brody At that point. Did your family work at the restaurant? How active were they in there? |00:39:14| Goyal No, they didn' ; t work at the restaurant at all. |00:39:25| Brody OK, you mentioned that your- even if every Indian person at that time came to the restaurant once a month, that wouldn' ; t be enough to keep the restaurant afloat because the community was so small. Did you feel like your restaurant was a place where people from all different cultures came to learn about and learned about India? |00:39:50| Goyal I think in a way they did. People who were curious, who are a little more cosmopolitan, they definitely came in to explore and learn about the Indian culture and by extension, the Indian food, too. And then we participated in many activities like they used to have international days or if SMU students had some Indian program like Diwali or something, we either provided the food or participated in it to some other ways. So that was, you know, true. |00:40:47| Brody I found an article in which you, that India House participated in the " ; Taste of Dallas." ; Were you one of the first, I guess, quote unquote ethnic restaurants represented there? |00:41:03| Goyal I can' ; t remember if we were the only ethnic, but I' ; m sure there were, if you want to consider the Mexican and Chinese, and they definitely must have been there, if you want to call them " ; ethnic.' ; |00:41:18| Brody What was that like? What did you serve? Do you remember? |00:41:21| Goyal I don' ; t remember what we served, but it' ; s possibly a could have been chicken or naan or something? |00:41:34| Brody ,How did you get involved with that, do you remember the process? |00:41:39| Goyal I was involved from day one with the Dallas Restaurant Association and through them, I' ; m sure we learned about various other opportunities, whether it' ; s the " ; Taste of Dallas" ; or International Day Fair or you know, any other opportunities where we could, you know show the Indian food because this, I thought, was excellent way to get people to taste it without being intimidated and coming to a restaurant and thinking, Well, I don' ; t know what it is like. So that' ; s why, you know, I participated as much as possible in various opportunities. |00:42:33| Brody Yeah. In those days, what was the " ; Taste of Dallas" ; like? Where was it held? What did it feel and look like? |00:42:39| Goyal I think it changed to every year where it was held, either at the City Hall Plaza or at the Market Center on Stemmons Freeway. |00:42:59| Brody Was it like booths? Did you have your own booth? |00:43:01| Goyal Yes, we all the restaurants who were participating will have booths. |00:43:10| Brody So one thing that comes up a lot when we' ; re talking about restaurants that are of a different culture or presenting food from another culture is the question of quote unquote authenticity. So did you feel like what you were trying to do was to serve authentic Indian food? Or, you know, you mentioned earlier that it was kind of the standard Indian restaurant fare? Well, how did you balance that? |00:43:43| Goyal Well, it was absolutely authentic. When I said the " ; standard restaurant fare" ; you know, I meant that in India, it' ; s so diversified. You know, from South India, you know, dishes to the Bengal dishes and the East India. And so this food was what you might call from North India or the Mughal. And that' ; s what is for the average person outside of India is considered the " ; Indian food" ; you know, unless they really get into it, then they' ; ll try the other regional dishes. So that' ; s what I meant that we were just concentrating on those dishes cooked in the way they' ; ve been cooked, whether you' ; re in Delhi or Mumbai or anywhere. And so that' ; s, not that it was in any way made to an American taste. |00:45:03| Brody Yeah, that' ; s what the, you know, a thing that I think a lot of restaurant owners have to straddle that, you know, how do you obviously you, you want to sell a lot of things. You want your customers to be happy. And some people have said that they' ; ve used their menu to sort of ease people into learning about, you know, the different, different tastes and different things. Is that something that you thought about much? |00:45:33| Goyal We thought about it, but it really didn' ; t seem like it was a necessity. One, because the food, food and the cuisine that we were serving was more for certain spices rather than being just hot chili hot. And in that sense, people, you know, if they tried, they didn' ; t feel that it was in any way not acceptable to them. |00:46:08| Brody You mentioned the events that SMU students might be having, international events and things like that, did you, at the restaurant, do special things for cultural holidays or other events? |00:46:20| Goyal We did. Many times, we had, we celebrated the tradition of here- the New Year' ; s Eve party special or at Diwali time or other times. Several different functions we had specials. And generally we' ; ll get a good response from those. |00:46:52| Brody You earlier mentioned serving both lunch and dinner, and many of the reviews of India House mentioned the lunch buffet as being, you know, a lot of choices. What do you, what were you... What are your memories of the lunch buffet and the sort of the lunch crowd that you would get there? |00:47:11| Goyal Well, the lunch crowd again came in from close by, you know, a lot of office buildings and SMU is there. And even from downtown Dallas is just on 75, and they could get it. We were very conveniently located. And we started the buffet part essentially so that people would get introduced to the food. So they could come in at lunch and they can pick and choose and try it without having to be concerned, whether they like it or not like it. Plus, they get introduced to the food and then if they felt then, then they would come back in the evening with the family. So that was instead of just having like lunch special place. We thought, " ; Well, let' ; s do the buffet, so they can, you know, whatever one price they can take whatever or as much as they like, they can come back if they like more. So that was the idea of the buffet. I think buffets have proven popular with a lot of Indian restaurants, you know, ever since. But I did it because I wanted people to try and be introduced to the food. |00:48:53| Brody It' ; s well-suited for lunch because people can come and go on their own schedule. |00:48:59| Goyal Come and go. Plus they can choose whatever they like. And then if they like something, they can get some more of it. |00:49:11| Brody Was the restaurant always called " ; India House" ; ? |00:49:14| Goyal Yes. Always. After we opened, we changed the name from it used to be " ; Hickory House Barbecue." ; We changed the name from the day we opened to " ; India House." ; |00:49:34| Brody And how long did the restaurant stay in business? |00:49:38| Goyal We, I think, closed in 76 and so about five years. |00:49:47| Brody And because of the lease? |00:49:48| Goyal Lease. Yeah. |00:49:50| Brody Did you consider moving to a different location? |00:49:54| Goyal Yes and no. By that time, I' ; ve become a full fledged entrepreneur because I left Xerox after one, about one year, so I was looking at other things all the time. So I got into some other businesses after that. |00:50:13| Brody Still in the food industry? |00:50:17| Goyal Well, a little bit related food and drinks, so I didn' ; t pursue another restaurant. |00:50:28| Brody When you look back at those times, what are some lessons or reflections that that you have? |00:50:35| Goyal Well. I think if you understand your market, and you really want to do it, you know, it may take harder, hard work than if, let' ; s say if you are selling hamburgers, you know, your market is much larger for hamburgers than it is for Indian tandoori chicken. But, so you may have to work harder and educate people, but it definitely can be done. And we enjoyed it. It was good. I mean, it was a lot harder than I would have thought. The restaurant business is one of the few businesses where you have a manufacturing and a retail and a service, everything. You know, if you open a manufacturing, then all you' ; re doing, if you' ; re doing chip manufacturing, that' ; s all you' ; re doing. Whereas in restaurants, you' ; re manufacturing the food in the kitchen and then you have the service, you' ; re also service business, you' ; re also manufacturing business. So in that sense, the restaurant is a multi-faceted business. |00:52:06| Brody Absolutely. How has Dallas changed in all the time that you' ; ve been here? |00:52:13| Goyal It' ; s changed tremendously. It' ; s...it used to be a small town. Now it is really the whole Dallas, what they call the Metroplex is much bigger, much more cosmopolitan. You know, |inaudible| after we opened the India House six months after that, the DFW airport opened and then that we thought was great. We thought, Oh, now people will be traveling in and out and they' ; ll be going to Europe. They' ; ll be going to Asia, Africa and all over and with direct flights from Dallas. I mean, it isn' ; t that they didn' ; t travel before, but it was not as convenient many times they have to either go to New York or through L.A. and change flights. Plus, the business community was expanding and growing and with the airport opening, they both kind of piggyback to each other. Businesses saw, " ; Hey, this was a great location for business." ; They could very conveniently do business anywhere in the world from Dallas. So more and more businesses came and so they just piggybacked each other. And then as a result, we, on the sideline, we had the advantage that many people felt, " ; Oh, yeah we want to go to India." ; It became one of the choices after they have travelled there. |00:54:16| Brody So people' ; s tastes became more open or more sophisticated? |00:54:20| Goyal Exactly. |00:54:23| Brody Similarly, what are some of your observations about the Asian community in Dallas? You mentioned how small it was when you first arrived, and it' ; s grown quite a bit. What are some of your observations about those changes within those communities? |00:54:40| Goyal I think the community started expanding with the IT, when a lot of IT-related companies either sprung up or moved into Dallas area. They brought in a lot of people who were IT-oriented expertise in the IT field. And so that' ; s what started, and it' ; s still true even in 2022. And, and then, of course, the universities...There are...UTD was a small, at that time. But now it' ; s got a lot of students from India and Asia and the faculty also. So that too. And as the Indian community grew, so did the Indian businesses that cater to them and also the other opportunities that the Indian community got involved in. It became so large that there are not only the whole India Association is there, but there are regional community organizations because again, because there' ; s enough volume of families that they need to have that cultural issues. |00:56:39| Brody When you put yourself back in the time period when the restaurant was open, do you have any... What was your most memorable story from the restaurant? |00:56:58| Goyal I have to think about it for a second. I guess nothing major. But again, just like, you know, I' ; ve made a lot of mistakes when I went to Korean or Vietnamese food. This same kind of thing that somebody taking our chutneys or something, thinking that' ; s the meal and just eating it or drinking it, and then realized, " ; Oh no, that was just condiment or this side dish." ; |00:57:48| Brody Right? You go back to that education piece that you were talking about. Yeah. Did you ever have any celebrities or athletes or anybody come through the restaurant? |00:58:03| Goyal Oh, all the time. A lot of times, you know, we didn' ; t keep track of that, because in those days the Beatlemania was there. A lot of people were, you know, oriented and a lot of those people came to the restaurant because they wanted the Indian food when they were coming through town for whatever reason, a concert or otherwise. |00:58:32| Brody Did the Beatles come to the restaurant? |00:58:33| Goyal No, not the Beatles. I mean, that was the period, right? And The Beatles, kind of all the others. So because of them, Indian food and yoga was popular and getting popular each day. So that' ; s why many of them came in and whenever the Indian ambassador or somebody came to town. They, of course, always came to the restaurant or we had the food, you know, catered and we took it if there was a function with the community. |00:59:18| Brody It' ; s great. It sounds like the timing of when you had the restaurant, when you started the restaurant was exactly when there was a really huge growth in interest in Indian culture and Indian food. |00:59:35| Goyal Excellent observation. |00:59:39| Brody Good timing. Good timing. Well, is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you that you' ; d like to share or a story that you' ; d like to include? |00:59:53| Goyal Nothing I can think of...Since we were the only Indian restaurant, many times we got invited to various functions. Our cook would be invited, you know, like, you know. A major hotel downtown, Fairmont. They wanted to have a India Week, so our chef went in and worked with there chef to prepare Indian dishes. Same way Neiman Marcus, when they have, they used to have a " ; Fortnight" ; various countries and I think one year they did India. So we helped them with Indian various functions they had. |01:00:47| Brody Did you ever do cooking classes? |01:00:51| Goyal No, we never did the cooking classes. You know, the chef didn' ; t feel they were really geared toward teaching. And this Ruben Buster who was the cook at the barbecue place, and I kept him alone. He learned. He was the only one we taught I guess. |01:01:24| Brody Did any of those chefs, after India House closed, go start their own places? |01:01:31| Goyal Not only the cooks did, but even some of the waiters and managers that did. Just so happened a couple of them are in the Dallas area. |01:01:46| Brody Oh, really? Do you know what restaurants? |01:01:49| Goyal Well, one is Mumtaz. Other is Maharajah. And the other is, we went to New Orleans one time when " ; Well, let' ; s go try the Indian food." ; We had some American friends with us and behold, the guy who was our manager. He said, " ; Oh, Mr. Goyal, what are you doing here? |01:02:16| Brody He started his restaurant. He started an Indian restaurant in New Orleans? |01:02:19| Goyal Right. So that' ; s the same way our other cook that we brought from India. He went to California. He worked at many places there. |01:02:36| Brody That' ; s really interesting. Well, I really appreciated hearing all of your stories and your, your thoughts about your experience running India House. I appreciate you being part of this project and thank you so much. |01:02:49| Goyal Well, thank you. I appreciate all you' ; re doing. Anything that you think of, if you need some more answers, if I can help you have, you know, call me. |01:03:06| Brody Thank you so much. |01:03:09| Goyal Alright. Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Madan Goyal, April 15, 2022
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2021oh002_di_008
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Indian
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2022-04-15
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audio