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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Betsy Brody
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Khanh Nguyen
OHMS Object
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https://diggingindallas.org/education/render.php?cachefile=2021oh002_di_022.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Interview with Khanh Nguyen, March 3, 2023 2021oh002_di_022 01:50:41 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Khanh Nguyen Betsy Brody mp3 oh_audio_dig_Nguyen_khanh_20230303.mp3 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/187928 Aviary audio 0 Introduction 33 Arriving in the United States from Vietnam Boston;Boston University;Catholic University;Houston;Law School;Northeastern;refugees;sponsor;Texas;UT Austin;Vietnam;Virginia 157 Going to school in Boston/Language learning Boston;Camp Pendleton;Dalat;English;Fort Chaffee;French;language;refugee;sponsor;war 453 Going to law school at UT Austin ADHD;education;law;law school;Locke Lord;Locke Purnell Rain Harris;University of Texas;UT 646 Becoming an entrepreneur/Opening first restaurant ADD;ADHD;business;cooking;entrepreneur;law;software;technology 991 Creating the menu at Dalat cooking;Dalat;Doritos;food;fusion;pho;recipes;soup;Superbowl 1290 Dalat as a neighborhood restaurant/Connecting through food connection;customers;demographic;food;neighborhood restaurant;regulars 1512 Challenges of location Dalat;Dallas;Fitzhugh;Herrera's;Knox-Henderson;location;restaurant 1706 Advertising/Relationship to food media in Dallas advertising;Dalat;Dallas;food media;pizza;restaurant reviewer;reviews;sales;social media;Zalat 2187 Opening Zalat Pizza business model;cheese;crust;Dalat;gang;Papa John's;pepperoni;pho;pizza;sauce;Zalat 3226 Growth of Zalat Pizza/Stock options for employees benefits;business model;consistency;growth;labor;pizza;profit;quality;scale;stock options 3639 Balancing growth and consistency at Zalat Pizza business model;consistency;French Laundry;growth;pizza;pizza box;Pizza Sheriff;quality;Thomas keller 4452 Philosophy of building wealth for front line workers benefits;frontline;growth;labor;pizza;wealth;workers;Zalat 4819 Developing Uber Rush for delivery business model;delivery;logistics;pizza;Uber;Uber Rush 5342 Thoughts about " authenticity " Asian American;authenticity;culture;Doritos;food;foodies;pizza;social media;tradition;Vietnam;Vietnamese;Yelp 6174 " Mom and pop " restaurants/Lessons about growth and staffing chain;growth;labor;mom and pop;skills;staffing No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Khanh Nguyen, March 3, 2023
Date
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2023-03-03
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audio
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2021oh002_di_022
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Betsy Brody
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Matthew Loh
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 Interview with Matthew Loh, January 25, 2023 2021oh002_di_021 01:22:59 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. 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Today is January 25th, 2023. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Matthew Loh. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you for joining me for this interview. |00:00:30| Loh Absolutely. It' ; s an honor. |00:00:32| Brody Just to start out with, where and when were you born? |00:00:35| Loh I was born in 1972 in a small city. Well, pretty big city, actually, in Can Tho, South Vietnam. |00:00:44| Brody What brought you to Texas? |00:00:47| Loh Well, you know, my family' ; s one of those refugee, boat people, so it was truly a two-year journey for us to be sponsored and to come to this great land of opportunity. And in 1979, we were, we won the lottery ticket, basically. We have a sponsor. Her name is Aunt Bonnie Minatra and Bill Minatra. They are my angels ; they sponsored my family. There was six of us and my parents. So it' ; s eight. And we came to America, landed in September of 1979 in a small town called, I believe it' ; s called New Mexico, Missouri. A very small town. I think we were probably the only second Asian family there. We didn' ; t stay there long because we couldn' ; t speak the language, couldn' ; t work, couldn' ; t get around too well. And so my dad was able to find a friend in San Francisco who said, " ; Hey, won' ; t you come over here? And I can get you a busboy job?" ; And my dad decided to pack the whole entire family of eight of us. And we rode a bus to San Francisco. |00:02:07| Brody Do you remember that? What do you remember about that trip? |00:02:09| Loh Oh. You know, I think I don' ; t remember much, to be honest with you. But I thought it was a fun ride. You know, as a child, not knowing what America is like or whatever, still adapting. Everything is just so new. And to get on a bus and just ride, I thought it' ; s fun. But I' ; m pretty sure looking back, and just to think how my dad and my mom felt, it probably was another huge challenge for them. First, to escape from Vietnam after the war and then to try to adapt into a new place. So to that bus ride was a long ride. I know that. And then we stayed in San Francisco for quite some time, but not that very long because the earthquake scared my mom to the point where she said, " ; We' ; ve got to move." ; And my dad found another friend who has a job for him in Wichita, Kansas. So we moved to Wichita, Kansas. Got on a bus again, went to, moved to Wichita, Kansas, and we stayed there. Of course, during this time we can' ; t speak the language. I' ; m still learning and adapting. And so we were living off of food stamps and welfare, government housing and whatnot. And then we stayed in Wichita for a good five years and then we got tired of the tornado. So we moved to Texas in 1985/1986. |00:03:45| Brody So were you in school in all those places? |00:03:48| Loh Yes, I was in school. |00:03:49| Brody And your siblings? |00:03:51| Loh Yes, my siblings were in school. I think my two oldest brothers never went to school here. Because they were old enough to kind of get a job and help out my parents and help out the family basically. So yeah, I owe a lot to my older two brothers. They sacrificed a lot just like my parents did to give me an opportunity for a decent education here in the US. |00:04:19| Brody Tell me about what you remember about both being in school, in the situation that you were in and moving around and starting new schools. |00:04:29| Loh Oh, man. It was tough. I' ; ll be honest with you. You know, when you come from a very poor family with nothing, all the clothing we had was basically donated from the church, and most of the time it doesn' ; t fit you, right. So, you know, you do get bullied a little bit here and there and get called names and whatnot. But luckily, I didn' ; t understand English that well where I' ; d, you know. But I think the hardship and some of those events that happened in my life made me the person who I am. So you' ; ve just got to grow from there. |00:05:16| Brody You mentioned that your dad' ; s friend set him up with a busboy position when you moved to California. What kind of work did he do in Kansas and then in Texas? |00:05:28| Loh Well, even in Kansas, it' ; s anything he can get his hands on. I think when we were in Wichita, Kansas, he worked in a restaurant. He worked in a laundry and then doing some other side jobs. Basically, when you have a family of eight and you don' ; t speak English well and you don' ; t have the opportunity to make good money, you just need to continue to work. And my dad did that- worked in a restaurant, worked in laundry, ironing clothes and whatnot. Any side gig that he can get, he would do it, along with my two older brothers, just to have more food on a table. Obviously, we were living off of food stamps, so there was some government assistance, but that' ; s not enough. And to be honest with you, my dad from Vietnam, he was a very successful businessman. He was pretty well off. We had butlers, we had maids and whatnot in Vietnam. But to lose all of that and come back here, he still has that sense of pride that he can overcome it. And he' ; ll want to work hard to someday not rely on the government assistance anymore. He' ; s just a very prideful man and I' ; m very thankful for that. |00:06:47| Brody Yeah. Sounds like he was determined. Once you got to Texas, where did you settle and what happened? |00:06:56| Loh Yeah, it' ; s a funny story, actually. The reason why we came to Texas. So we never thought about Texas, to be honest with you. But my dad had another friend here in Texas that he hasn' ; t seen for quite some time. So he and my older brother drove from Wichita, Kansas to Texas to meet up with a friend. And it was during the wintertime. And, you know, in Asian culture, you go and visit somebody, you' ; ve got to bring something. So once he got to Texas- in Arlington, Texas-, he tried to find an Asian grocery store. And so he was able to find one, off of the corner of New York Avenue and Arkansas. It was at most 2000 square foot. So he went in there and he just buys something and whatnot. Bought a gift and went to visit his friend. And then the next day they were going to try to head on back to Kansas- Wichita. And it was just, the weather was really bad. It' ; s snowing. And so he decided to spend another night. So he went back to the grocery store and then he ended up talking to the owner, and the owner wanted to sell the business. You know, he wanted to sell the business. Now, at this time, we were, in Wichita, Kansas, working in a restaurant and whatnot. My dad was able to save enough money just to open a small Asian grocery, an Asian restaurant in Garden City. So, our family was kind of split up. Like I said, we were at a point where, " ; Let' ; s do everything we can to be independent, right?" ; And so he visited an Asian grocery store. He never owned an Asian grocery store, but he is a businessman, right? He owned a bakery in Vietnam. And then we owned a small restaurant in Garden City, Kansas and so it intrigued him. And so he came on talking to the owner and they decided to...My dad decided to buy the grocery store phone from them with the sale of finance and whatnot, just to try it out. Again, very small business. But he found it fascinating that we can eat the food that we like, carry the food we like, and try to carry more and more Asian products. And so he just decided to go ahead and take a chance, take a huge risk, and then opening up our very first grocery store. It was called Hong Kong Marketplace. In 1986. And so that' ; s when my entire family moved over to Texas, to Arlington, Texas. |00:09:49| Brody It' ; s a great story. Did most of you work in the family business? |00:09:54| Loh Absolutely, all of us did. |00:09:56| Brody Tell me about what you did, what that was like. |00:09:58| Loh So, you know, unlike other kids my age at that time who go to junior high school and then high school and then probably play sports and go out with friends and whatnot, what I do is, after school, I walk back to the apartment behind the grocery store, put up my stuff. Then I' ; ll walk to the grocery store and help out. I would carry rice bags, say hi to customers, help sack, help carry the grocery bag out, put it in the car. And so, it was, it' ; s...we weren' ; t at a point where we could hire many help and so a lot of the profit come from our own labor and that' ; s how we grew from there. We' ; ve just been extremely blessed, very fortunate, took advantage of all the opportunities that this great nation provided to us, and just continued to work hard and grew and grew and grew until we' ; re here now because of that. |00:11:06| Brody Tell me about the growth. Where, from that one store, where is the business now? |00:11:12| Loh So, from a 2000 square foot grocery store, we continue...With again, it' ; s just with the growth of the Asian population in the Arlington area, Dallas, Fort Worth area, our business grew. And so from that one grocery store, 2000, then we expanded. We bought and rented another location, leased another location that was twice the size. And throughout the whole process, we somehow, we were, all our business has always remained along...between Arkansas and Pioneer Parkway. So the first store was at New York and Arkansas. Then the second store was at Center and Pioneer/Arkansas. And then we moved from there to the one back on New York and Pioneer. I think that one used to be an old Home Depot. It was a huge- that was a huge step for us because we went from a 2000 grocery store to move over there. It ended up being, I believe, 30 some thousand square foot grocery store. So it did continue to grow. Now, when we actually moved to the location in Pioneer and New York, we actually co-owned the property. It' ; s the very first time that we actually moved into real estate. And so we owned. We had a partner with a bank, and we owned that. And then business continued to prosper and grow. And so we decided to buy another building in Dallas for Walnut and Audelia. And that is the...That' ; s a 40,000 square foot grocery store. And so we were operating two grocery stores for quite some time. And then a huge opportunity presented itself again when Walmart and Sam' ; s Club in Grand Prairie went dark. And they went dark, I forgot what year was, but we had an opportunity to buy the Walmart building first and we bought that, I believe, in 2005, and then we bought the adjacent building, which was the Sam' ; s Club building in 2013. But the very first business...so we shut down in 2008, we shut down our operation in Arlington to move over to the Grand Prairie location, and we opened that in 2008. And then in 2014 is when we developed the other building next to it, Asia Times Square. And so the entire area is called Asia Times Square. |00:14:04| Brody Yeah. Tell me about your vision for that. I mean, it' ; s a big step to go from a 2000 square foot small grocery store to sort of running multiple stores and then a complex. So what were the goals and what were some of the concerns that you that you had at the time? |00:14:26| Loh So just to let you know, at first, I wasn' ; t really a huge part of my family business. You know, I went to school, went to UTA to get my engineering degree. And then when my dad wanted to continue to expand the business and he asked me, I think I shared with you, to join the family business. I said, " ; I' ; ll do so if you make me the highest paid cashier in the history of America." ; And he did so. So I quit my engineering career in 1999, and I started helping out the family business. And so once I continued to help out the family business, I started to see what were, what the potentials were. And so when we decided to buy that building from Walmart, we looked at the entire area surrounding that area and see what the potential was going to be. And so we saw the vacant Sam' ; |s Club next to it as well. And it was always in our heart to acquire that. Unfortunately, at that time we couldn' ; t because, the way Walmart operates, they' ; re just a giant. It' ; s just a little bit difficult to acquire a building because it was in a trust, part of a trust that included twenty other Sam' ; s Clubs. So we bought, we went ahead and said, " ; Let' ; s just convert this Walmart into what we believe will be the best property, the best destination to provide our Asian community everything that they would want." ; And so we took that building. Walmart was 120,000 or 130,000 square foot. I keep forgetting which one is bigger Walmart or Sam' ; s Club. But we took that, and we converted it, and we moved Hong Kong Marketplace into that building and let Hong Kong Marketplace be the anchor. And then we start building everything out and start leasing it, bringing new tenants in. So before we did all of that, we really had to decide what our vision is going to be, what the master plan is going to be. And I want to reiterate that, America is such a great nation that provides people abundance of opportunity. I think as long as you are determined to work hard, you can succeed in America. And that' ; s the beauty of America. But, you know, she has her own problems as well. But we just continued to grow. And we thought about calling it Hong Kong Market Mall. We thought about calling something like that. But, our vision, our plan was bigger than that, I think because we were sponsored by angels, our Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Bill, we wanted to do something that' ; s bigger than a business. We wanted to be able to give back. And we want to bring people together. And so we didn' ; t want to call it " ; Hong Kong Mall" ; or any specific country. And so we decided to call it " ; Asia Times Square." ; We wanted to acquire, and we did acquire about sixty acres of land, and we wanted to make that Asia Times Square. We didn' ; t want to do anything else because we are such proud Asian Americans, and we wanted to create something that the Asian community can be proud of. And not only that, I wanted to create something where other ethnic groups want to experience Asia, they can come visit us. |00:18:25| Brody How did you come up with the " ; Times Square" ; name? |00:18:28| Loh I think because New York has a " ; Times Square" ; there, that had a huge part of it. And I just like how people gather there and celebrate. And I said " ; Huh, let' ; s call it ' ; Asia Times Square.' ; " ; So we were actually...We were thinking about calling it " ; Asian American Mall" ; , but I didn' ; t want that either. And I didn' ; t want to call it " ; Asian Times Square" ; because I feel like if we call it " ; Asian Times Square," ; we felt like it' ; s...the area was specific just for Asians and we don' ; t want that. We are very inclusive. We want to promote our culture. We welcome everybody to come in. So that' ; s why we took the " ; n" ; out and just called it " ; Asia Times Square." ; |00:19:12| Brody So tell me about...Walk me through Asia Times Square. What is it like? What would I find if I went there and what are the types of things that people do while they' ; re there? |00:19:27| Loh Sure. First and foremost is Hong Kong Marketplace. We' ; ve been in business for 36 years now. And we wouldn' ; t be who we are, where we are, what we can become without the love and support of our Asian community and the community in general, to be honest with you. We carry products from all over, from the Far East. We always carry, you know, we carry products that you can' ; t find our local Kroger' ; s and Walmart and whatnot. And we specialize in seafood, fresh seafood. Live seafood. Vegetables. Exotic fruits. I' ; ve been on numerous mainstream TV stations- NBC, ABC, Channel 11, Fox, CW. We' ; ve just been invited luckily, you know, we' ; ve been invited just to talk about the exotic fruits and vegetables that we eat. And that' ; s just the beauty of it. I think, living is about experiencing and trying different things. And, you know, one of the fastest growing clientele for us are non-Asian, and I' ; m super proud of that. So the grocery store is a big part of Asia Times Square. It occupies 40,000 square feet, carries products from all over the world. And it' ; s just continued to grow and continued to grow. I think we are the first Asian grocery store in DFW, maybe in Texas, that has a self-checkout. So, you know, with an engineering background, I' ; m always wanting to improve a process. And most Asians are probably a little bit worried and scared of moving to that self-checkout technology. But I feel like we' ; re at a point where we have to make constant improvement. And so, you know, I think going back to 1999 when I decided to quit my engineering career to help out the family grocery store, I think we were the first one to go with an automated cash register system with PLUs and be PCI compliance and whatnot. Because in the past, it' ; s always " ; Okay, this product is 99 cents, punch in ' ; 99' ; ." ; That' ; s it. There' ; s no description whatsoever. But we upgraded and went with a full POS system. And so we constantly tried to make changes. You know, we have to. Where we can be proud Asian American, but we have to move along with technology. So that' ; s that. And then, we have a great relationship with banks. One of our banks that were a huge part of our growth was City Bank, C-I-T-Y. They were our major vendor. And so when we bought that building, they were the lender, and they were also our tenant. So that was a great relationship. Unfortunately, right now, they' ; ve sold that branch to another bank. And we love Metro City Bank. They came in very supportive, and we love what they do as well. But just knowing a grocery store is not enough. We truly want to be a destination, really a place for Asians of all backgrounds and even non-Asians. I just want to create an environment where people can just come enjoy themselves and be a one stop shop. So we want to make sure we have a good food court selection. We have a hair salon. We have a jewelry store. We have money transfer, shipping, a variety of services there. You know, income tax, buying insurance, it' ; s all there. But we knew that that building would not be enough. So as soon as the Sam' ; s Club became available.... And it took six years because it' ; s just there' ; s a lot of legal stuff that Sam' ; s Club had to do and whatnot. And they knew the broker knows that we want that building. So as soon as they got that resolved, they contacted me and I believe it was within 45 days, we took ownership of it. It was a quick- there was not much negotiation. They gave me a price that I thought was fair and we took over. And so we own that building. Once we owned that building, we acquired more land to the west. So our Asia Times Square will be in both city of Grand Prairie and city of Arlington because the land that we own to the west is actually in city of Arlington. And we' ; ll look at developing that probably in the next couple of years. |00:24:23| Brody That' ; s great. So what is a typical weekend like at Asia Times Square? |00:24:28| Loh Oh, man. Typical weekend is crowded. It' ; s getting crowded. And I think us being able to understand and trying to stay true to our mission and our vision statement. Our mission is " ; Preserving Tradition and Promoting Culture." ; It took me a couple of years to come up with that mission, but I think that' ; s very, very important to us. I think we are definitely staying true to that because we host so many cultural events. My dad, when we, you know, he misses home, he misses home, and he missed the way we celebrate it, the way he celebrated the Lunar New Year and the Mid-Autumn back home. And so we make it a point where we will host those kinds of events at Asia Times Square. And in order to host an event like that, we need a lot of space. So that' ; s why it was important when we see all this vision, all this master plan, we don' ; t know how it' ; s going to turn out, to be honest with you. We don' ; t know. But we dream big. We dream big. And this what I want, this is what I want. So we have all...I always write down what I foresee, what my big dream is, what my big goal is going to be. Whether I make it there or not, you know, I don' ; t know. It' ; s yet to be seen. I have huge goals. But we' ; re working towards that. But on a weekend, there' ; s a line at the Pearl Restaurant. That Pearl Restaurant is probably one of my favorite dim sum places. They' ; re always packed on weekends. The grocery store is busy, but we have so many different cuisines there that people will love to try. We' ; ve got Korean, Japanese, Thai, Lao, Filipino, Vietnamese, of course, Mongolian. Just an array of Asian cuisine that you can try. And then, you know, we have a huge ballroom that hosts weddings and nonprofit fundraisers and whatnot. So it' ; s always busy. But when it comes to an event and some traditional holidays, it really gets packed. And what brings me a lot of joy, honestly, Betsy, is that when we host an event it' ; s not just the Asians that come out. It' ; s truly people from all walks of life, every ethnicity you can think of are out there celebrating with us. And I think our vision of becoming the destination, connecting cultures and community, it' ; s working. It' ; s working. And, you know, one of our purposes for Asia Times Square, again, I keep on telling you that, you know, we have a business to run. I' ; m the CEO and I have a business to run. I look at financial, I look at the numbers quite a bit. But at the end of the day, we' ; re much more than a business. Our purpose is actually to replace ignorance with acceptance. And, you know, to achieve that, we' ; re going to require a lot of support from everyone, from city government, from our customers, from people who are not- have not experienced what Asia is like, we want them here. We want them to come here and experience and to see that we are so much more alike than not alike. We all, as human beings, we love family, we love our families and friends, we love food, and we love to laugh and sing and dance. I mean, that' ; s what life is all about. And to try new things. And so, I shared this with my daughter the other day, I mean, a month, a few years ago, actually, when I told you that we want to replace ignorance with acceptance. Before I had my conversation with my daughter, to be honest with you, my statement was " ; to replace ignorance with tolerance." ; And I thought that was pretty good until I sat down to chat with my daughter, and she said, " ; Dad, why even tolerance? Why don' ; t we take a further step and just go directly to acceptance?" ; And I thought that was brilliant. And so I' ; ve been using that a lot. So it' ; s credit to my daughter. |00:29:07| Brody That' ; s great. |00:29:08| Loh Yeah. |00:29:10| Brody Smart daughter. What role, you mentioned, that we all love food. What role do you think food plays in your mission of promoting culture? |00:29:21| Loh A huge part. A huge, huge part. I' ; m a foodie. I' ; ll be honest. Oh, let me share with you. I' ; m Chinese, born in Vietnam, married to a Korean, so I love food from every place. I' ; m just a very proud Asian American. And food. I' ; m telling you ; I have been asked to be on so many mainstream media to talk about food and talk about. I remember there was this one episode they were talking about eating black, green, or dark color veggie, and why do you do that? And that it' ; s healthier, eating those colors. And so they would come and talk to us about it. I did a show with them, and then more and more non-Asians are shopping at our store. And that' ; s what actually, that was our tagline for Hong Kong Marketplace...it' ; s " ; Don' ; t just shop, have an experience." ; Because truly when you come in there and see products that you' ; ve never seen before and tried before. And then if I' ; m there, if anyone asks me or any of our staff, we try to explain to them why we eat certain things. Right? And the clientele, the increase in in clients from the non-Asian community is just phenomenal. So I strongly believe that food is such an important part. A lot of people eat to live. I live to eat. And so when it comes to food, I can talk on and on and on and on. |00:30:59| Brody What are your biggest sellers? |00:31:01| Loh Well, oh, I think our seafood department is second to none. And then, of course, our vegetable and fruits. You know, back then, even in 1986, I remember there' ; s certain foods that we love so much, but it' ; s so hard to get. Extremely hard to get. And even back then, in 1986, or in the early nineties, to get this fruit called durian or jackfruit. I mean, it was like fifty bucks. Back then it' ; s a lot of money. But now, we' ; re able to bring in those fruits by containers and Florida can grow some of them to longans and even Mexico can grow some of them. And for us to bring all that fruits and vegetables in at a much lower price, it just makes it so much easier for people to have access. And again, the growth. The growth not just in the Asian population alone, but just the growth of being a foodie, a growth of non-Asians wanting to try Asian food and products has grown so much. And that' ; s the beauty of America. There is the beauty. And then there' ; s also a dark side of America. But I think we are moving forward. We' ; re making huge progress to how I experience my childhood to now. |00:32:32| Brody That' ; s really interesting about the changes in your ability to source some of those quote unquote exotic vegetables or fruits. Can you walk me through the nuts and bolts of what that' ; s like now of keeping a huge store supplied with all of these things from all over the world? |00:32:52| Loh Yes. So I think there' ; s a lot more wholesalers out there that are importing stuff to make our retailer, our grocery store life easier. But there are still products that we import ourselves just by the sheer volume. One product is Jasmine Rice. Hong Kong Marketplace, we bring in anywhere between, I don' ; t know...I don' ; t know how many tons of, million pounds of rice we bring in. So actually we have an agreement with a farm in Thailand that we would go there and specifically pick out their grain of rice, the type of rice that we want to import with our own label, without own label. So we bring in containers, I don' ; t know, 30, 40 containers are huge. Millions of pounds of rice. So that, you know, when the logistics is actually a... especially during the COVID pandemic, it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. We weren' ; t able to bring in our product soon enough. It' ; s just because of the logistics. Containers of rice. Back then to bring in a container might cost 5000 or whatever. Shipping fees or not. But during the pandemic, you' ; ll be lucky if you can outbid your competitors and pay up to 15, 20,000 a container just to bring in a load of rice. But, that is huge. Our seafood department is huge. We import a lot of frozen tilapia from Taiwan, Thailand, China, Vietnam, just all over. Our seafood department is like I said, we have a huge...We are lucky enough to have a huge warehouse, a pretty decent freezer, a really big freezer so we can bring in loads at a time, containers at a time and just store it there. Having a warehouse helps a lot. |00:35:11| Brody Sure. A lot of people that I' ; ve interviewed have brought up the role that the airport plays in running their business and being able to source fresh food. Is there much of a relationship between your business and sort of the fact that the DFW airport exists? |00:35:29| Loh Yes, I love the airport. I tell you, there' ; s two reasons why I love the airport so much. Number one, we get our live seafood from the airport. We get our live lobsters, our live Alaskan crab, shrimp or whatever from the airport. So our staff will drive there on a weekly basis to pick up the shipment. That' ; s number one. Number two, I' ; m not sure you' ; re aware of this, but Hong Kong Marketplace is one of the very few approved vendors on the Sky Chef list. So, Sky Chef is one of our big clients, and we deliver to them on a weekly basis. So if you' ; re flying internationally, the chances are, when you' ; re drinking a cup of tea, a cup of instant noodle or some Asian ingredients, it' ; s probably coming from Hong Kong Marketplace. |00:36:34| Brody That' ; s so interesting. How did that relationship develop? |00:36:38| Loh You know, so it was a long process, to be honest with you. To be on their approved vendors list, you have to go through a process. You have to get audited by third party. They have to come and interview us and whatnot. We again, we were...They reached out to us. One day I received a phone call and they said who they were, and they asked if we carry this kind of product. And I said, " ; Yes, we do." ; And they said, " ; Well, we would like to order this on a regular basis, but you need to be on an approved vendors list. And these are all the requirements you need to meet. Can you do that?" ; And, you know, I' ; m pretty sure a lot of people probably would have said no because it was quite lengthy. And to be on that list, it' ; s not just the energies and the labor and effort that you need to put in, it' ; s also the capital, right? You had to really be willing to spend money to be in compliance and meet their requirements. And I thought that was a must for us. I think that was one way for us to continue to improve how we operate. And I met with my brothers. Some thought it was just too much, that it wouldn' ; t be profitable, and I was... I keep on telling them it' ; s not just about profitability and why I think we need to get to a point where we can grow and be a reputable company, that we can meet their standard. You know, not very many people can be on this list. Let' ; s separate ourselves from the others. So I went ahead and did that. And it was almost a year' ; s process, a one-year process to get on that list. And we' ; ve been serving them, delivering to them for the last, I don' ; t know, five or six years. |00:38:29| Brody That' ; s really interesting. And you' ; re right, I had no idea. |00:38:32| Loh Not very many people know that. That' ; s why we have a pretty decent sized warehouse is so that we make sure we always have the product they need. |00:38:41| Brody Earlier you mentioned many of the businesses that are in Asia Times Square, the insurance, the jewelry store, hair salon and so on. A lot of, especially in California, centers that are built around an Asian grocery store serve a dual purpose of providing the actual supplies for people to cook and eat, but also, a sort of safe place for people who are new to the country to sort of acclimate and have less of a barrier in terms of language or comfort. Do you feel that some of those businesses in Asia Time Square, have served that purpose- to help people ease in? |00:39:24| Loh Absolutely. Yeah. I wish when we came to America, we had Asia Times Square where we stayed. It would have been, it would have made life a lot easier. You know, even our tenants right now, most of them are " ; mom and pops." ; Absolutely, we have some of those franchise businesses, but we also want to work with " ; mom and pop" ; who want to start our own business. And I do go out of my way to try to assist them, to let them know that the way we operate in America is much different than in back home. And so, but even when we had those kinds of businesses and then we have immigrants from China or Vietnam who just came over to America, for them to be able to come to Asia Times Square and feel like home, it helps them so much. I know it would have helped me tremendously. And there' ; s actually...I' ; m glad you asked me that because there is a future project that we' ; re working on and it' ; s going to be very dear to me, and it' ; s to create a senior housing for the Asian community. A lot of our, you know, being second generation and third generation, we' ; re more adept or willing to have our mom and pop at an age where, you know, they can go live at a senior housing. Before and even still now I' ; m pretty sure all a lot of Asian families will have their parents live with them, with the eldest child, but slowly there more and more willingness to change. But there' ; s no place for them. There' ; s no place for the seniors and our parents to live because, you know, they love to eat what they like to eat, listen to music they won' ; t listen to and eat the food, you know, and play games that they' ; re accustomed to. But there' ; s no place out there that allows them to do that with comfort. If they do that, they feel a little uneasy. And so that' ; s going to be a very dear project for me, is to build a residential, not specifically for Asian, but it' ; s going to cater towards the Asian. We want to be inclusive. I love seeing non-Asians coming and enjoying Asian' ; s festivities, the food and whatnot. So I want to build something like that that the seniors can live there, walk to the grocery store. We want to build a park, an Asian-themed park with trails to Bangkok or trails to Saigon, trails to Seoul, you know, all the different countries and just have a very nice park for the seniors to walk and keep them constantly moving. I think one of the biggest differences between Asia, I mean, between America, seniors in America versus seniors in overseas is the health. I think because we have no choice. Everywhere we want to go, we have to drive here, we drive, drive, drive, whereas in Asia, we walk, walk, walk. And walking is such a great exercise for the senior. Even for me, actually, I would wake up early when my wife makes me and I' ; m always thankful that she makes me do it. We would walk around our neighborhood and just that one hour walk makes a big difference in our lives. So I want to create something like that for our Asian seniors here. |00:43:00| Brody That' ; s really beautiful and really fits in with the larger mission that that you have. I hope it works out. I have a couple of questions about just sort of when you were developing. Did you have any pushback about signage, about traffic, about anything like that as you grew and developed, especially Asia Times Square? |00:43:27| Loh Yes. So, you know, I' ; m lucky enough that, in my family, I' ; m the youngest of six. And so, there' ; s three of us that got a higher education. My third brother, John, Melody is an accountant. And I am, I got a degree in mechanical engineering. So we read and write in English pretty well. And so I understand the process, but I also am very thankful to have been able to witness my dad' ; s courage and his sheer determination to succeed. And the thing I mentioned to you earlier, that getting a good education is extremely important, it' ; s the foundation. But what I learned from my dad is it' ; s much, so much more. Because my dad was not an educated man. The reason I say he' ; s not an educated man is because due to war and whatnot, he had to give up. He didn' ; t go to...He quit school the age of 13 to take care of families and whatnot. But he' ; s the most intelligent man I know. But here in America, just for me to be able to witness...he' ; s not a man of many words, but a man of action. So what I learned from him, and this is something I share with a lot of students that I talk to now, I say, " ; You learn your ABCs, you get your A' ; s, your B' ; s in school, and try to get as many A' ; s as possible. But it' ; s truly about the five D' ; s that I' ; m going to tell you that will make you succeed in life and succeed in your career." ; And what I learned from him, he didn' ; t say this particularly, but just good action and just witnessing everything that he went through is the first D is desire. And then you follow up with determination, dedication, devotion. And the last one is discipline. Now, if you can achieve and exercise those five D' ; s along with a good education, you will succeed in life. And so with all that, I knew that in order for us to execute on our master plan, I knew I had to work with the city government. I knew I have to get in touch with them and make sure they know what we' ; re trying to do and for me to seek help from them. I believe in partnership. I believe in collaboration. I think there' ; s so much we can do together. Once we are able to partner up and collaborate. And so I was the one who just reached out to the city of Grand Prairie. I remember vividly going to one of the meetings, and I was very nervous, extremely nervous. I mean, it didn' ; t matter if I had an engineering degree or whatnot. It' ; s kind of hard to prepare yourself to go in there and talk in front of the mayors and all the councilman and whatnot. And I' ; m Asian, too. I' ; m walking there and I believe it' ; s all white gentlemen. And there was- except for one lady, Ruthie Jackson. And I told them what I plan on doing, what my family' ; s planning on doing. And we would like to work with the city and get some help. And believe it or not, we were able to get an abatement from the city of Grand Prairie to develop that part of property. And they were very happy. They were very welcoming. And, you know, it just... the partnership between myself and the city of Grand Prairie has been phenomenal, and they have been very welcoming. But in every relationship, people ask me...In every relationship it takes two. If you want them to accept you, you have to accept them. You have to welcome them. And just because I opened the door, if the other party doesn' ; t walk in, it won' ; t work. And so it' ; s a relationship that we have to continue to work on. There are things that I believe the city of Grand Prairie can do better, and there are things that I know that I can do better, but we' ; re working together to get there. And I think the mayor of the city of Grand Prairie, Mayor Ron Jensen has been phenomenal. I think his love for people, of all people, helps with what we' ; re trying to do at Asia Times Square. And that' ; s why when they know what I' ; m trying to do with my business...Yeah, at the end of the day, it' ; s a business. I want to be profitable, but we want to do more than just that. And so, whenever we host an event, other dignitaries come to support us and just working together to make our community much better. |00:48:54| Brody I noticed that Asia Times Square is listed as a, you know, a tourist attraction in the city of Grand Prairie' ; s website. How, what are some other ways that that partnership has surprised you? |00:49:09| Loh Oh, yes. As you know, for the tourism department and I want to give a shout out to Sarah Dedeluk. She' ; s with the tourism department and, the city manager, Tom Hart, he retired. And so the new city manager is Steve Dye. He' ; s a good friend of mine. We became friends when he was the Grand Prairie police chief. And our relationship just continued to develop. It' ; s just so much easier when your vision and your purpose are in line. And you know, Sarah, she has brought so many different tourism departments from different cities and county to come visit Asia Times Square. And I would give them a tour. And every time I give them a tour, I would always get back an email from El Paso or whomever saying, " ; Oh, that was one of my favorite sites to visit because there' ; s so much there." ; There is truly a lot at Asia Times Square that you can check out. I' ; ll give you, for instance, why we called it " ; Asia Times Square" ; you already know. And then I kind of mentioned to you, my mission is " ; Preserving Tradition, Promoting Culture." ; But if you take a step back before you even enter Asia Times Square, just step back and take a look at the two buildings side by side, you will notice which building is preserving tradition and which building is promoting culture, because preserving tradition is the building with the Hong Kong Marketplace, the grocery store and everything in that grocery store is more authentic, more traditional, and even to the design of the building has a traditional Asian look. And then you look on the other side is promoting culture. That design is more modern. It has an Asian flair, but it' ; s more modern. And that building has the ballroom that we host so many cultural events, that we' ; re promoting culture. So there' ; s a lot. In addition, I keep on telling you that I love preserving tradition and one of the things- why we host so many events at Asia Times Square- it' ; s not just for the mainstream, it' ; s not just for the non-Asian to understand why we celebrate what we celebrate, but also to continue that tradition for the next generation. Because the American born Asians are slowly losing their roots, and we don' ; t want to do that. We' ; ve got to make sure they understand where they come from, who they are. So when you look at the two buildings, one building is actually higher than the other building. So the " ; Preserving Tradition" ; building, which is the Hong Kong Marketplace building, is actually lower than the " ; Promoting Culture" ; which is for the younger generation. So it' ; s like the root is always at the bottom and a branch, the flowers all that is going on top. So when you look at our building, not many people know that, but we specifically design it such that there is a roof that connects one building to another building and there' ; s an incline rising up as well. |00:52:19| Brody That' ; s really thoughtful. |00:52:21| Loh Yeah. Thank you. |00:52:23| Brody On that note, we' ; re in the midst right now of Lunar New Year season. Tell me about how Asia Times Square celebrates Lunar New Year. |00:52:32| Loh We celebrate. I hope we' ; re at a point where people understand that if you want to celebrate Lunar New Year or to come to this Lunar New Year celebration, you have to come to Asia Times Square, because we really put a lot of time and effort into it. This is a... we just finished our 16th year hosting the event and it just seems like it' ; s getting bigger. And I' ; m proud to say that this past two, three weekends has been the most well attended celebration. We' ; ve seen so many non-Asians visiting our facility to celebrate, and for me to see them go into a Vietnamese gift shop or Lao or Cambodian gift shop and buy those traditional Vietnamese outfits. And we' ; re talking about a White guy and a Black lady going there, buying those outfits, and try it on and celebrate with us. That is such a beautiful sight for me. And then the other thing is for me to see the seniors, the grandma and grandpa smiling and laughing because they' ; re reliving that precious moment that they celebrate back home. And then also to see the younger kids just having fun, doing firecrackers and whatnot. It is truly my favorite time of the year. We' ; ve just been so blessed to have so much love and support from our community. You know, like Channel 8, always have me on Good Morning Texas always have me on, Daybreak. Fox Four News came out and did a show about how we celebrate it. And then just for me to be able to explain to the mainstream what is the red envelope for? What is the significance of firecracker dance and lion dancing? It' ; s just beautiful that people are more accepting our culture and our traditions. |00:54:33| Brody So you mentioned firecrackers and lion dance. What other, including those, what things do you have that go on that people come and watch? |00:54:42| Loh We bring in a lot of entertainers. That' ; s a must. We have to bring in a lot of entertainers. We love to sing and dance. And we always try to bring the artists that our Vietnamese community love to listen to, grew up with. So we bring them too. And we invite many, many different cultural performances. Again, we' ; re preserving tradition, promoting culture. So when it' ; s Lunar New Year, we don' ; t just have Vietnamese dancers or Dragon dance, we have African, Nigerian dance team come in, and we' ; ve got K-Pop coming in, we' ; ve got the mariachi band come and sing and dance with us. Just anyone who wants to come and share their culture with us. Come on, come, and share with us. Because that' ; s what we' ; re about. We want to celebrate unity. We want to celebrate diversity. So the more the merrier. We have a list where anyone who wants to come and perform, they want to showcase their talent, to showcase their culture, we' ; re more than happy to bring them on the stage and showcase them. |00:55:53| Brody That' ; s great. Moving in a slightly different direction, when you got to Texas and you got to Dallas or Arlington, what was the nature or size of the Asian community and how would you characterize the growth to now? |00:56:14| Loh Wow. It was small. It was definitely small. I can tell you that in Arlington, it' ; s still a higher Asian population than in city of Grand Prairie. But when we decided to move to Grand Prairie and open a business there, there were less than five Asian businesses there. And the Asian population in the city of Grand Prairie at that time was probably 1%, if that much. Now we' ; re close to 10% in population in the city of Grand Prairie. Just Asia Times Square alone has 70 Asian business owners from less than a handful. Now you have 70 Asian businesses. So it has grown tremendously. Dallas-Fort Worth has grown tremendously, and we' ; re benefiting from that. So, yeah, it' ; s just the growth has just been phenomenal, and I hope it can continue. But if it continues, we' ; ll need to have better infrastructure investment for sure. |00:57:20| Brody What do you mean? |00:57:22| Loh You know, just traffic and the way we handle business because we have to be prepared if the growth continues. Sometimes when a business is not prepared for the growth, it can backfire, and you won' ; t be able to sustain it. So you always have to make improvement. I always share with entrepreneurs. You know, everyone always thinks about, you know, making as much money and saving. And I said, " ; No, you' ; ve got to reinvest those money into your own property if you want to sustain." ; So I' ; m a huge believer of reinvestment, reinvesting, not just repairing and renovating. But you' ; ve got to reinvest into your own property and your own product to continue to grow. |00:58:14| Brody The last few years in Dallas have been rough for restaurants, especially because first we had the tornado, then COVID, and all the labor shortages and supply chain issues. How has your business been affected by any of those challenges? |00:58:32| Loh Yeah, labor is a huge challenge for us. Labor is a huge challenge for us, and I think that was part of the reason that we went ahead and made an improvement to invest in self-checkout for the grocery store. But just besides that, other departments, and other businesses that we have are suffering from lack of labor, shortages of labor. But we' ; ve just got to continue to try to improve. You know, due to COVID, I' ; m pretty sure everywhere you go, there' ; s always signage on the restaurants or wherever, " ; Short of staff, please be patient." ; You know, and I think the COVID-19 pandemic, the silver lining, I do believe there are more people who value families and are more willing to be more patient than before. So that that is the silver lining. But, you know, the some of the other tragedies that comes from it is something that we' ; re going to continue to try to work through and get better at. |00:59:37| Brody You know, during the initial, you know, COVID period in early 2020, I assume Hong Kong Marketplace was considered an essential business. So did you stay open? What did that feel like during that time period? |00:59:54| Loh Yes, we definitely stayed open. The business grew and COVID was just so new and so scary too. Everyone was concerned. And I think we, I' ; m very proud of how we operate as a business. We' ; re always trying to be as transparent with our customers. And there was a time when one of our employees, we found out was not well and then we asked him to get a check and was tested positive for COVID. So, what we decided to do was, we just make a public announcement and we' ; re going to close the business, hired a third party to come in and sanitize, did whatever they did to get us ready to reopen for business. Many people would say, " ; Why would you do that?" ; Because at that time, when COVID is so scary and then when you hear of a business that someone there has COVID, what' ; s your initial reaction? " ; I would never go there. I' ; m not going to go. I' ; m going to stay away from there." ; And what we decided to do is to be transparent. " ; Hey, we' ; re not going to put anybody at risk." ; And we just- business is business, but we don' ; t know what' ; s going on. So we just go ahead and let people know. " ; Sorry...Yeah. One of our..." ; And the reaction I got from that was pretty phenomenal. People were so thankful that we stepped up, and our business has...I think because they know that we are always going to try to do the right thing. We cannot always make everybody happy ; I think and that' ; s a known fact. But we will always do our very best to do the right thing. So that and then in addition to that, when do you remember when everyone was going out and trying to grab as many toilet papers as possible? So we did the opposite thing. Luckily with our buying power, we were able to secure loads of toilet paper before it ran out. And instead of putting a limit on how much people can buy, we put a limit on how much a senior can get the toilet paper for free. So we were handing out free toilet paper when everyone else was increasing the price or whatnot. So for the seniors specifically, we just said, you know, we want to take care of you guys. So we did that, and we got...I think that too for the grocery store, doing the COVID was something that I' ; m very proud of our team to do what we did. |01:03:08| Brody It sounds like as a family-owned business, you really cultivate that relationship and trust with your customers, even though it' ; s grown so much in multiple branches. But did you have to pivot to do curbside and things like that as well? |01:03:25| Loh We did. We tried to accommodate those, but it was just extremely difficult to do that when you were already short of staff. And not only were you short of staff, but that your business has increased because it' ; s an essential business. So it was extremely difficult phase for us. And I' ; ll be honest with you, we were blessed. We' ; re pretty successful in what we do, but we' ; re not the Walmart or the chain store with the deep pockets and whatnot. We are still a family-owned business. We consider ourselves small business, so there were a lot of challenges that we had to go through. Installing those plastic guards between the customer and the cashier, make sure everyone have masks, we bought in the thermostat where people can scanned their temperature before they come in. So we did all of that to the best of our ability. But we tried to do curbside, but it was a little bit challenge. We did it. It just took us a little bit longer because we were just so short on staff. |01:04:33| Brody It makes sense. As a family-owned business, do you guys still see yourselves as a " ; mom and pop" ; shop or how would you characterize it? |01:04:43| Loh The answer is yes. Yes. So, you know, when our business continued to grow and now, you know, our business is more- I concentrate more on the real estate side for the family business. And I have a property management company as well. And I love structure. I love structure. But I do not want the structure...I do not want it to be so structured to the point where we lose the family ties and the family way of doing business. Every team member that comes in is my family, is my new family member. Everybody from the produce department, seafood department, janitors, whomever- they are now my family, and I just don' ; t want to lose that. I think the way we want to operate is how I always hear my dad said, when you own a business, our vendors are our friends, our friends, our customer, our friends are our families, you know, and our customers are our friends and family. And we want to have that kind of relationship with our customer. And to be in business for 36 years, that means we' ; re doing something right. And I don' ; t want to change that. I love our customers. I love how much they have supported us through the years, and I want to continue to have that kind of relationship. I want our staff to have that kind of relationship with our customers as well. Are we going to make everybody happy? No. I think it' ; s impossible. |01:06:34| Brody That' ; s great. I' ; m just thinking about. This time period that we' ; re talking about from COVID and till until now, we' ; ve seen a lot in the news and a lot of really tragic instances of anti-Asian violence or rhetoric. With a very publicly Asian business and being a hub where Asians gather and where non-Asians also enjoy Asian culture, how have you dealt with some of those rhetorical and unfortunate violent incidents? |01:07:21| Loh Yeah. So like I said earlier, I think America is a great nation, the greatest nation. But she' ; s not perfect. She' ; s trying to become perfect, but she' ; s not perfect. So there are dark moments and incidents that I' ; ve experienced. Even, I remember vividly today, many years ago, when I was driving to my parking lot at my Dallas location business, I just drove there. I own, my family owned the building, owned the parking lot, but yet this non-Asian guy drives up to me and tell me to " ; Get the F--- out of this country." ; And that hurts. And the same incident happened to my own dad. And it was painful, but I think we can continue to learn from that experience and try to do better by spreading love and by hosting events. I think that' ; s why I' ; m so passionate about doing, hosting the events that I host. I really want people to understand who we are. It' ; s very unfortunate as Asian American to be recognized or be considered as American. I have many great friends. They know that. And I share with them. I share with my White friends, with my Black friends, with my Italian friend and Mexican friend. I share with them that you know your children and you the longer you stay, you will be recognized as an American. But for Asian American to be considered as American, it is still a work in progress. I' ; ve done the tests just for fun. Some of my friends and their kids' ; friends. I say, " ; I want you to close your eyes. I want you to close your eyes." ; And they close their eyes and I say, " ; Think of one of the greatest Americans." ; And then I tell them, " ; Who do you pick?" ; Some guy would say, " ; Michael Jordan." ; Some would have Abraham Lincoln or whomever. But none of them said any Asian name in there. And we were talking about even our own Asian kids are thinking that way because that' ; s how they' ; ve been taught. And that' ; s how we' ; ve been looked at which is we are seen, but we' ; re not seen as American. So I think, again, even though I say all this, I' ; m just extremely blessed to be American. She' ; s not perfect, but there' ; s no other place I would rather be. Can she improve? Definitely. And I think it' ; s going to require all of us, all the business owners, all the people, communities to get involved and just kind of understand one another more. And the thing I share with you, my purpose is to replace ignorance with acceptance. And we' ; re going to work towards that. And we are making progress. I really believe so. And, you know, due to COVID, when the anti-Asian hate crime was on the rise, we decided to host an event and celebrate Asian Heritage Month. In the month of May is when we do Asian Heritage Fest, and that' ; s when we recognize all the great Asian Americans who have contributed so much to this society, to this country. Last year, when we did it, I told I made a speech and I said that I shared with the public and there were many dignitaries there as well. I said that I read a report that Asian population is on the rise. But even in, I think the report was done in 2009, where the total Asian population in America was like 5.4% or whatever, 5.4% population in America. But do you know how much we contribute to the economic impact? 7.8%. That' ; s huge. From a, if we' ; re only a 5.4%, but we are responsible for 7.8% of the economy. That is huge. Right. And so I think people need to start just need to appreciate, celebrate, and just welcome. It is time for us to not be overlooked. I think as an Asian American, it sometimes feels very unfair. And I hate to say that, but it is unfair that an Asian American, especially with an Asian last name that are trying to apply for scholarship, even if they get straight A' ; s, is very hard for us to get it. Had we been not and it' ; s just very unfair at times where I see non-Asian will say that we' ; re the minority- " ; model minority" ; and I hate that terminology too- " ; model minority." ; But then some of the minority group say that we' ; re not colored people, So I don' ; t know where we are, you know, so it' ; s just, it' ; s a work in progress and I think everybody needs to continue to work hard. And I can assure you that that is one of my passionate projects. I want people to unite, and I don' ; t want it to be an anti-Asian hate crime. I want it to be just an anti-hate project. You know when the Dallas mayor recognized one day for that? I was like, you know, one day? So anyway, we just need to work towards replacing all the hatred in our society. And I think sometimes, it' ; s just the negativity is what sells. And I' ; m going to do everything I can to celebrate all of positivity in this great nation. |01:14:14| Brody That' ; s fantastic and really well said. To you, what does it mean to be an American? |01:14:21| Brody You know, I think American, to me, and the American, a lot of people, this is where people are so...oh, I don' ; t know what' ; s the word? I' ; m losing my thought. But, you know, America has nothing to do with color. It does not have anything to do with color. I think in America has to do everything about the spirit of being a good person, the spirit of taking a full advantage of all the opportunities this great nation provides, and to succeed in life, in our career, and to be able to give back. You know, when an American is Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Bill, without knowing who I am, but their love for people, for humanity, is what drove them to sponsor my family from a refugee camp. We were in the refugee camp for nine months, waiting and not knowing where we' ; re going to be, but praying and hoping that we will be able to come to America. That' ; s an American right there. Without knowing, she- the love that she had, and she just sponsored and gave us the chance for a good life. And you know what that is? That' ; s my mission. And that' ; s to try to give back as much as I can. You attended our Lunar New Year banquet, and I shared with you that, you know, after my dad passed away, I created the Loh Foundation. L-O-H Love, Opportunity, Hope. And that' ; s what America' ; s about- love, opportunity, and hope. I am the proudest American I think you can think of. Because I don' ; t back away from saying that. And I' ; m proud to say that because I think I lived the American dream. You know, I came from literally nothing. And to be able for me to in my family, to be where we are and to be able to give back and continue to work hard to give back, I think that' ; s the American spirit. That' ; s what America is about. |01:16:40| Brody Really beautiful. What are some of the ways that the Loh Foundation gives back? |01:16:46| Loh Oh, I love just to see the kids. We give out scholarships to kids. Each and every year, we give out the scholarship and during the banquet, we just give out $10,000. But throughout the whole year, there are other opportunities that other charitable events seek out help and we donate to them. But giving out scholarships is one of my favorite things. And to hear their stories kind of reminds me of what I went through. And some of them were just so unbelievably talented, smart. And each and every time I give out a scholarship, I tell them that I want them to be successful so that they can continue to give out scholarships. I remember when I received my scholarship, it meant so much to me. I was so proud of myself to have received that. And I just want to be able to get that because I consider that a loan. And then when I' ; m going to pay that loan, I' ; m going to pay with a huge interest. And that' ; s why I encourage all the students who received the foundation scholarship to do that as well, keep the ball rolling. And then for our foundation, you know, we' ; re talking about love, spreading love, creating opportunities, and giving hope to all. So any nonprofit out there that can help us execute the mission, we would love to participate. And we will love the, we love helping out the homeless shelter. There' ; s a great organization out there that goes out and helps homeless. We help projects in overseas in Vietnam, that' ; s where I was born. And then there' ; s just so many domestic violence that need help. We' ; re there. The Police Association, as you can tell. Love the police. I love first responders and just the community in general. Just there' ; s a lot of things we can do to make our society better. And I just am very thankful and blessed that the Loh foundation can play a part in that. |01:19:02| Brody It' ; s great. Correct me if I' ; m wrong, but did I see a resolution commemorating Asia Times Square in the Texas Legislature? |01:19:12| Loh Yes. Yes. |01:19:13| Brody How did that come about? |01:19:17| Loh So, I am the first Asian to be a chairman of the Grand Prairie Chamber of Commerce. |01:19:27| Brody Congratulations. |01:19:28| Loh Thank you. That was a couple of years, a few years ago. Let' ; s not say how many years ago, but... And so when I was chairman, I worked closely with the president of the chamber, and we decided to create an Asian Business Council for the chamber. And we did that, and we hosted a number of events. And then Congressman... Oh, my God, I' ; m drawing a blank. I think it' ; s Congressman Barton attended the event and then he recognized Asia Times Square and the Loh family, and it' ; s actually recorded in the Library of Congress. And that was a very proud moment. And it' ; s just like I said, I' ; m just very happy and blessed to be able to do what we do. You know, when my dad passed away, I received an official US flag was flown at the Washington Capitol on the day that my dad passed away, and that was hand-delivered to me. So it' ; s actually folded in a case as well as a Texas flag that was flown in Austin State Capitol as well on the day that my dad passed away. |01:20:48| Brody And it' ; s really special. |01:20:49| Loh It' ; s extremely special. And, you know, I owe all that I' ; ve accomplished everything I did to Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Bill. They gave us a chance. My dad taught me everything that I know. It' ; s like I mentioned to you it was just his sheer determination and his work ethic is what I took most out of him. And then just being surrounded by good people, meeting you, meeting everybody. I just tried to learn from everybody I talk to. And I' ; m not talking about just people who are top officials and whatnot, just anyone that I talk to. I think each and every one have a special gift that I can learn. Even a kid, this small kid, they will see things that we wouldn' ; t see from their eyes and stuff. So like I said, my daughter taught me something, right? And it was a huge lesson that I learned from her. To replace ignorance with acceptance. Just bypass tolerance, let' ; s be acceptance. Now, I' ; m...I love to learn from people. I' ; m a student. I will always continue to be a student. And I think having that mindset makes me a better person. |01:22:09| Brody It' ; s a really nice spirit. And thank you. I appreciate you giving me a compliment as well. Well, we' ; ve talked about a lot of things today. And is there anything that I didn' ; t ask or that you' ; d like to add to this interview? |01:22:24| Loh No, I just I' ; m very blessed and thankful that you' ; re doing this interview. I feel extremely honored for me to have this opportunity to share my story with your audience. It' ; s a blessing. And hopefully those who are listening can continue to do good, succeed in their life and in their career, and do positive things that will make our society a better place. |01:22:54| Brody Well, thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom. I appreciate it. |01:22:58| Loh Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Matthew Loh, January 25, 2023
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2021oh002_di_021
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Chinese
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2023-01-23
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Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Donny Sirisavath
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5.4 Interview with Donny Sirisavath, August 8, 2022 2021oh002_di_020 02:24:39 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, Lao Donny Sirisavath Betsy Brody mp3 oh_audio_dig_sirisavath_donny_20220808.mp3 1:|13(8)|35(5)|77(6)|90(4)|106(8)|121(3)|135(2)|196(8)|210(8)|258(3)|270(6)|285(1)|310(16)|322(10)|333(3)|347(8)|369(10)|406(2)|415(9)|426(14)|451(11)|461(9)|472(16)|512(16)|522(2)|534(1)|553(7)|565(3)|611(9)|623(12)|655(3)|666(5)|678(2)|690(5)|702(5)|710(11)|720(12)|733(1)|756(7)|797(6)|808(13)|846(9)|859(9)|907(8)|919(4)|939(11)|992(11)|1001(10)|1024(6)|1039(2)|1050(3)|1064(5)|1085(9)|1098(4)|1110(2)|1132(9)|1144(7)|1169(2)|1179(10)|1191(18)|1223(7)|1233(12)|1245(11)|1257(9)|1270(2)|1281(11)|1292(9)|1307(6)|1317(8)|1331(2)|1366(10)|1419(14)|1453(4)|1464(1)|1476(11)|1604(14)|1689(5) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/174325 Aviary audio 0 Introduction 33 Growing up in Amarillo Texas Amarillo ; immigrants ; immigration ; Laos ; refugees ; Texas 102 Refugee identity bartering ; cooking ; English ; food ; language ; Lao ; refugee ; Thai 214 Mom's background in Laos bartering ; cooking ; family 421 Moving to San Antonio/ Sirisavath's mom opens Rama Garden Restaurant business ; Chinese cooking ; Chinese restaurant ; cooking ; family ; restaurant ; San Antonio 575 Family names family ; names 725 Working at Rama Garden and Taste of the Orient Chinese cooking ; Chinese restaurant ; cooking ; family business ; restaurant ; wok 942 Sirisavath describes learning Lao home cooking from his mom cooking ; culture ; family ; food ; home cooking ; immigrant ; laab ; Lao food ; larb ; papaya salad ; recipes ; refugee 1043 Balancing Lao culture and American culture Asian flavors ; bullying ; culture ; discrimination ; food ; immigrant ; racism ; sandwich 1331 How food bridges a gap in culture authentic ; authenticity ; Chinese food ; cooking ; culture ; food ; identity ; Laos ; restaurants ; Thai food 1660 Lao cooking and flavors fermentation ; fish sauce ; Lao cooking ; Laos 2099 Sirisavath describes his late teenage years Asian restaurant ; Bai Bua ; cookng ; culture ; identity ; Mexican food ; restaurant ; Thai food 2366 Working various jobs after leaving high school/Moving to Dallas Benihana ; Dallas ; employment 2833 Starting pop-ups/Opening Khao Noodle Shop Asian food ; culture ; food ; house parties ; Lao food ; pop-up ; recipes ; restaurants 3852 Finding a location for Khao Noodle Shop Asian restaurant ; Dallas ; East Dallas ; Khao Noodle Shop ; Lao restaurant ; real estate 4091 Khao Noodle Shop recognized by Bon Appetit magazine Bon Appetit ; business ; Khao Noodle Shop ; Lao food ; Laos 4801 Sirisavath recognized by Food + Wine Magazine and James Beard Foundation COVID ; flu ; Food + Wine Magazine ; James Beard Award ; Lao food ; Lao Food Movement ; Laos ; pandemic 5148 Food and storytelling at Khao Noodle Shop authentic ; bridge ; cookng ; food ; Khao Noodle Shop ; storytelling 5560 Authenticity, identity, and cooking adaptation ; Asian American ; authentic ; authenticity ; cooking ; home cooking ; identity ; recipe 6055 Impact of the COVID 19 pandemic on Khao Noodle Shop COVID ; Food + Wine ; Khao Noodle Shop ; pandemic 6439 Opening Darkoo's Chicken Shack Asian American ; Asian flavors ; bridge ; food ; fried chicken ; recipes ; restaurant 7016 Yelp/Social media reviews restaurant reviews ; reviews ; social media ; Yelp 7863 Sirisavath discusses the concept of " ; mom and pop" ; restaurants Asian restaurant ; business ; Khao Noodle Shop ; mom and pop ; restaurant 8072 Sirisavath discusses his mentors Food + Wine ; Lao food ; mentors “Digging In” explores how the growth of the Asian community coincided with the rise of “foodie culture” in Dallas, leading to unique opportunities for economic and social engagement between and among different Asian immigrant groups as well as with the larger Dallas community. |00:00:07| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is August 8th, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Donny Sirisavath. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Donny, thank you for joining me for this interview. |00:00:37| Sirisavath Well, thank you for having me. |00:00:38| Brody Let' ; s start out. Just where and when were you born? |00:00:42| Sirisavath My name is Donny, of course, you know. I was I was born in Amarillo, Texas, right after my parents were sponsored to Texas. To the United States where 1980 of August 13th. I grew up in Amarillo for a couple of years and then moved to San Antonio, Texas. |00:01:03| Brody Where did your parents come from? |00:01:05| Sirisavath From Laos. |00:01:06| Brody Where were they? Who were who were they sponsored by? |00:01:08| Sirisavath They were sponsored by a Baptist church in Amarillo, Texas. That church also sponsored a lot of refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos. At the time when my parents came was 1978, and when my parents came to Amarillo, Texas, it was just my mom and dad and I believe my grandma at the time. And then eventually, the rest of the family came here after. |00:01:37| Brody So you' ; re a born native Texan? |00:01:39| Sirisavath Yes, native Texan. |00:01:41| Sirisavath But, you know, growing up in Amarillo, Texas, we have a lot of refugees. I felt like I was part of being a refugee myself, even though I didn' ; t escape you know, Laos or Vietnam or Thailand. But I' ; ve just felt like around, the people around me were all refugees and immigrants of different Southeast Asian countries. So I just felt like I was an immigrant. |00:02:01| Brody What parts of the refugee experience sort of struck you or resonated with you? |00:02:08| Sirisavath I think the, you know, growing up in a household that did not speak English. I mean, for me as a young child and, that' ; s... That was my first language was Lao and then Thai eventually and English and, seeing my mom, my dad, just really struggling to make ends meet. So where my mom stayed at home, taking care of me, cooking at home, cooking to sell her food so she can have money to support the family as well, too. And also too, for me. But I think it' ; s partly because she enjoyed cooking. You know, that' ; s where, that was her language of love. It was through food. And I think a lot of people around the community knew that she knew how to cook and that she can help feed the community as well. And, you know, the whole refugee mentality is, you kind of barter with people. So my mom would cook and would get a vegetable from one of her friends or go to a friend' ; s farm to get eggs. So it' ; s like, it' ; s that' ; s what I knew what a refugee was, you know, being about immigrant. That you kind of help each other out, being part of a community that you don' ; t know the language, you don' ; t know the land of, the new land that you are living in. A new country. So I think that' ; s part of where I kind of figured like, " ; I am. I think I' ; m an immigrant." ; But really, I wasn' ; t. It' ; s my parents were. |00:03:27| Brody What were the most popular items that your mom cooked and bartered with? |00:03:33| Sirisavath I mean, there was many things that she used to make. She usually...She was known for all her like sauces or dipping sauces and then also her desserts. I mean she was not trained as a chef or as a cook. She just learned a lot of stuff from her great, great grandma. And then, of course, her mom and, you know, for a lot of people that didn' ; t know, and I didn' ; t know myself, my mom was actually kind of privileged in Laos, apparently. I didn' ; t know this. But so she learned some other cooking from her, I guess her nannies at the time in Laos. Her father was a well-educated person in Laos and so was my grandma. So she was, you know, went to private school kind of thing. And but she would come home and my grandma, great grandma would, you know, teach her how to cook and the nanny as well, too. But I think at a young age, that' ; s what she grew up doing, cooking for all her siblings, which was twelve siblings, including her. So thirteen. So, yes, she was the oldest of her siblings. So being that way, the oldest usually always take care of the younger and I think that' ; s part of the reason why she had to learn how to cook as well, too. |00:04:51| Brody How old was she when, in 78, when they came? |00:04:55| Sirisavath I believe she was and do my math. So she was 60 when she passed away, which was 2011. She came when she was, I believe, 28. 28. Yes. I know my math might be wrong, but I believe she was in her late twenties, early thirties when she came. But yeah, it was just her, my dad and my grandma and her sister and brother. And then after that, I was born two years later. In Amarillo. But yeah, her food was just phenomenal from what I' ; ve heard when I was growing up. And, you know, I ate her food all the time at home, so I' ; m very biased. And but, yeah. I would just always remember going with her to different people' ; s houses and dropping off food. And also at like the Asian grocery stores, convenience stores, just dropping her weekly production of her food. And that was my childhood with her, you know. And sometimes at home, I was trying to mimic her, you know, pounding garlic or peppers in a pestle and mortar. And she was like, " ; What are you doing?" ; And I was like, " ; I' ; m trying to help you, Mom." ; I didn' ; t know what I was doing. But, you know, that' ; s our relationship, growing up, was in a kitchen. |00:06:13| Brody Yeah. So did you end up learning a lot about cooking? |00:06:17| Sirisavath Yes and no. I think as a young age, I think it was more like a like a playground. You know, I didn' ; t have much toys. So, you know, my toy was kitchen toys. A pot, pan, a steamer, rice basket steamer, pestle, mortar. And I think that' ; s because I would see my mom in the kitchen and she tries to keep me in the kitchen, so she keeps an eye on me because I was very mischievous and I' ; m like, " ; I want to see everything, touch everything." ; So I think that' ; s part of the reason why I stayed in the kitchen with her a lot. And yeah, as a younger child, you know, I didn' ; t understand what I was doing until I grew up as a teenager moving to San Antonio and then seeing my mom running an actual restaurant. |00:07:00| Brody Yeah. Tell me about that move to San Antonio. How old were you and what kind of restaurant? |00:07:06| Sirisavath I was eight years old when we left Amarillo, Texas, to San Antonio. But at the time, every other summer, we would usually travel from Amarillo to San Antonio to help because my dad was involved in a Buddhist temple in San Antonio, and he actually was the main person that actually built the temple. I didn' ; t know my dad was very good with his hands or like that. He was super handyman, building things without using designs. I was just kind of baffled by that. So I mean, that was our summers. And then finally the monk at the time in San Antonio was like, " ; Hey, why don' ; t you just go ahead and move to San Antonio? Might be a better life for you and your family, especially kids." ; And then, yeah, we left. And then my mom got the opportunity to open her own restaurant, knowing that everyone knows her. You know, she cooks phenomenal food. And there was a Chinese restaurant for sale at the time. And, you know, with all their savings, they went ahead and bought the restaurant. It was called Rama Garden if you ever look it up. It' ; s off of, I believe, 281 and Callahan Road? I forget. I have to go back and remember that. But yeah, it was a Chinese restaurant. Not a Thai or Lao Restaurant. It was a Chinese restaurant. |00:08:32| Brody So, I mean, did she have to learn how to cook Chinese food? |00:08:35| Sirisavath Yes. So luckily, I believe there was a couple of recipes that was left behind from a previous owner, but a lot of stuff my mom was...That' ; s when I knew my mom was not just a cook, she was a chef. You know, she' ; d kind of look at a recipe and just make anything and everything. And it was just phenomenal. Just seeing how her mind and the skills that she had just making dishes she' ; s barely read a recipe on. I' ; m like, " ; Oh." ; |00:09:02| Brody Maybe things she' ; d never eaten. |00:09:04| Sirisavath Yes. And as well, too you know, Chinese American food was, you know, everywhere. But some Chinese foods are a little different than others. But so for her, it was more of understanding the culture and understanding where ingredients come from. I think that' ; s where she...her food shined more than just your regular Chinese American food. And of course, she just put a lot of love and care into the food that she makes. |00:09:29| Brody Tell me your parents' ; names. |00:09:31| Sirisavath My mom' ; s name is Phaysane Sirisavath. My dad' ; s name was ________ " ; Sam" ; Sirisavath. Their American name is " ; Sam." ; My mom' ; s American name was " ; Susan." ; But then later after my mom passed away, I found out that that wasn' ; t her real name. |00:09:47| Brody What do you mean? |00:09:48| Sirisavath So Phaysane was not her real name. That was a given name from my dad to get the sponsorship from Laos to America. Apparently. I don' ; t know why, but I think I know why, but I maybe not need to say it at the time. But her real name was Vieng Sai. That' ; s her real given birth name. Phaysane was my dad' ; s ex-girlfriend' ; s name. |00:10:13| Brody Oh boy. |00:10:14| Sirisavath So, yeah, this is something that I just learned after my mom passed away, and I' ; m like, " ; All this time, I been calling my mom by a different name. My dad' ; s ex-girlfriend' ; s name." ; |00:10:26| Brody It sounds like everybody was. |00:10:28| Sirisavath Yeah, I think it' ; s in part because of leaving a Communist country. And, you know, part of reason why the change of names as well. |00:10:36| Brody Speaking of names, a lot of people who come from non-American cultures adopt an Americanized name. Is Donny your Americanized name? |00:10:48| Sirisavath Yeah. So and this is a funny story and true story. I don' ; t have a Lao last name or a Thai last name or Asian name. My name is Donny from Donny and Marie, the singers. My mom came from a country where they loved American music. And listening and singing Donny and Marie, you know, that' ; s one of the names that my mom, you know, one of the singers that my mom loved. So she was like, " ; If I have a boy, it will be Donny. If I have Marie. I mean, if I have a girl, it' ; ll be Marie." ; So. And it became a boy. |00:11:27| Brody Do you have a sister? |00:11:28| Sirisavath No. But my mom wanted me to be a girl, so they didn' ; t want to hear about the sex. So they bought girl' ; s clothing for me and everything. And I came out, " ; Oh, we have another boy." ; Like, uh. So, there' ; s some old pictures of me wearing some girl' ; s sandals and shirts, I think. |00:11:46| Brody That' ; s pretty funny. |00:11:47| Sirisavath And then there' ; s a...I mean there' ; s a saying, my mom always called me ____. _____ means like girl and ____, is like, my nickname. Instead of _____ because ____is a boy. And it' ; s like, yeah. |00:12:00| Brody That' ; s really funny. So how long was the restaurant open? The Rama Garden. |00:12:05| Sirisavath Rama Garden was open for I believe only a few years. It was a big, massive restaurant. That restaurant, I believe, was like 2500 square foot. It was, you know, it' ; s an old Chinese restaurant. So you just imagine a Chinese restaurant that had your regular dining space. Then you go down the little stairs and like the little fountain in the middle, when you walk in, and you go downstairs to the smoking section. So, you know, hey, back in the day we had smoking section, non-smoking section. So that' ; s one, the two parts of the restaurant. And then you go back underneath from the smoking section, there was a party room like a big, massive party room. So that restaurant' ; s humongous, I think. And I think the location really was the cause of why my mom closed. It was facing the backside of 281. And so I think that' ; s part of the reason why that restaurant didn' ; t succeed. But, you know, like the food was amazing. I think, because and also finding workers at the time. You know, having a family business is not always the greatest thing. Because, you know, with me being young, I have experienced a lot of things through that restaurant from family business, you know, brothers and sisters arguing, aunts, uncles, you know, arguing, parents arguing. I saw all of that. And I' ; m like, " ; Whoa, what' ; s going on here?" ; And you know that, it breaks the family apart. But, you know, at the end of the day, my mom' ; s like, " ; You know what? It' ; s just too much stress on the family and myself. Let' ; s go ahead and close this and I' ; ll figure things out after that." ; |00:13:36| Brody What did she do after that? |00:13:37| Sirisavath So after that, she just kind of just went around and consulting different restaurants in San Antonio and she partnered up with a friend of hers doing " ; Taste of the Orient." ; And this was the pretty much the Panda Express Chinese restaurants in shopping malls. She ran two stores. One was in Windsor Park Mall, which was the one I always helped her out. This was when I was in middle school, actually, I' ; m sorry, starting middle school into high school. So I would, you know, after I get off of school, she would pick me up and now I' ; d go to the restaurant and help out. You know, ring customers up, serving customers. And then there' ; s sometimes where we' ; ll switch, my mom goes in the front, and I' ; ll go in the back and start cooking. And I think that' ; s where I started more of cooking in the restaurant. Because that Rama Garden, I was just, I was just a child running around, busing tables, giving customers water. And, you know, I' ; ll get tipped, I' ; m like, " ; Okay, I like this." ; You know, I was like looking for customers to fill water. I would do that. But yeah, " ; Taste of Orient" ; was where I really got my hands dirty, inside the kitchen, learning how to work the wok, cooking fried rice. You know, Sweet and Sour Chicken, General Tso' ; s chicken. You know, it' ; s just a basic common Chinese American food. But I learned a lot, you know. |00:15:01| Brody Now, what did you learn? |00:15:04| Sirisavath Patience and cooking and temperature control. And that' ; s the thing I' ; ve learned about, like, wok. And you know, wok, it' ; s where you have to really understand the fire, the movement of when you' ; re using a wok. And you can leave stuff there, it' ; ll burn. There are some things you can leave there and it won' ; t burn. So oil temperature, you know, it' ; s very scientific of cooking, but at the end of the day, it was just kind of the feel of cooking. If you understand your temperature, your motions, you kind of understand the way of cooking. And I think wok cooking that' ; s the way of " ; the wok of life." ; |00:15:41| Brody At that point also were you and your mom cooking together at home? |00:15:44| Sirisavath Yeah. You know, and part of it was learning in the kitchen when we would go home, my mom would always cook our home cooked meals, which was Lao food, Thai food. You know, and sometimes, some Chinese food and French foods and Italian food that she loved. But, at home was more about the home cooked meals. So sit down dining with family. You know, me, my brothers, my dad, my mom. You know she' ; ll just...And there are sometimes where she was busy, so she' ; ll cook before she leaves to work for us like every refugee immigrant parents. They always do that because they have to work and sometimes, they can' ; t take us to school. So my mom taught me how to cook eggs and rice at home. So then she' ; d be like, " ; Hey. I already washed the rice for you. You all have to cook and cook your eggs." ; Or sometimes noodles. Something very basic. At the time. And then eventually she started showing me how to make sauces, like, you know, making like laab, which is like meat salad, chicken salad as well too. And like doing Tum Mak Hoon, which is like papaya salad because that' ; s a technique that you... It takes years to learn and master it. I' ; m still trying to master it. But it was one of those things that she kind of taught me. But the real things that she taught me was that you have to be in tune of your own culture to understand the ingredients and involvement when you make the food. I think at a young age, I' ; m like, " ; I don' ; t understand, Mom, I just want to eat." ; Yeah, I don' ; t need this culture, life lessons. You know, being a teenager, stubborn teenager, don' ; t want to listen to your parents. So that' ; s where I was at. |00:17:21| Brody Yeah. I mean, it' ; s a common thing with immigrant kids, and the children of refugees who are growing up American. It' ; s hard to find that balance of figuring out your American self and leaning into learning about your culture. |00:17:37| Sirisavath So yeah, I think every immigrant child goes through that. I think part of it, you know, you see a lot of these movies now where you see the immigrant child bringing lunch to school. I was those immigrant child where they have whoa, we bring something that' ; s ethnic for us that we eat at home to school, and we get looked at weird. Or " ; What' ; s that smell like?" ; It' ; s fish sauce. Like, " ; Why are you eating fish sauce? Why is there that sauce that' ; s made from fish and all this stuff?" ; And, you know, I' ; ve...You feel like you get bullied when you' ; re in school and especially in that something that you grew up eating. And coming from Amarillo, it' ; s very immigrant driven, refugee driven to a city that' ; s not the same immigrants or different immigrants than where you' ; re used to. So I was just in the school was predominantly Whites, Hispanics, Black. Hardly any Asians. So for me I had to feel like I need to fit in. So I was always telling my mom, " ; Mom, can I get sandwiches instead for lunch?" ; She said, " ; Why do you need sandwich? Like you eat the food that we have left over for dinner." ; That' ; s the way of immigrant families, refugee families to save money. So I' ; m like, " ; No. I don' ; t want to take my leftovers to school, mom, I want sandwiches and chips and stuff like that because all my friends." ; And then my mom says OK. So she made me a sandwich one day, I took it to school. My friends, like " ; Your sandwich looks different." ; I' ; m like " ; Why? Like it' ; s the same sandwich as you guys." ; So the ham that my mom made for me was a Vietnamese ham, Cha Lua. It' ; s like, you know, the pork ham that you put in banh mis. So my mom...That was the ham that-- she' ; s like, " ; It' ; s ham. This is ham I' ; m used to." ; You know, it was just with mayo, cheese, and Vietnamese ham and, you know, Mrs. Baird' ; s bread. Like it' ; s a sandwich. She got it, right? Well, yeah. |00:19:45| Brody Was it good? |00:19:45| Sirisavath It was for me. It, for me it was good. But for me, eating that sandwich in front of my friends, it didn' ; t feel good because I would still get picked on. But I would let my friend try, like, " ; Well this is pretty good. Like, what' ; s this?" ; And this has fish sauce in it. But yeah. So that transitional phase from San Antonio, I kind of lost my identity a little bit, so I can adapt to my environment. Now, I think that' ; s part where a lot of immigrants' ; child that grows up as immigrant but then lives in an environment that' ; s not predominantly westernized. So yet we have to fit in. I think that' ; s where I kind of lost, you know, my culture, lost myself, wanted to be more White, Hispanic, Black versus Asian. You know, a lot my friends, when I' ; m growing up and are like, " ; What are you? Laos, Thai...Like, what' ; s that?" ; Like, " ; I' ; m Asian." ; Like, " ; Okay, but where' ; s it at?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Laos is next to Thailand, Vietnam." ; Like, " ; Okay, all right." ; I was like, " ; Did you guys learn in geography class?" ; So I was tired of explaining myself for a little bit at the time. So me growing up, a lot of people thought I was Hispanic. I look Hispanic, especially growing up in San Antonio. So I just kind of like, " ; Yeah. I' ; m Mexican." ; For much of my middle school years until like, until some of my friends came to my house and they' ; re like, " ; What do you got to eat?" ; We' ; ve got like, oh, " ; You know, I have chips, but they' ; re shrimp chips. You know, I have a jerky, but it' ; s Asian jerky or pork floss. And I have rice, you know, rice cake that' ; s been dehydrated and fried. And then our Vietnamese ham and the sausage, cured sausage my mom makes. You know, pork sausage." ; And they' ; re like, " ; This is not. This is not Hispanic food. So, you' ; re not Hispanic?" ; Like, " ; You know, Asian. I keep on telling you guys." ; So, yeah. So it was a loss. Loss in identity for a little bit. But I think growing up, more and more around my mom and being, seeing her struggle to open her different, you know, restaurants and working out like, " ; You know what? Yeah, I' ; m Asian. I' ; m Asian." ; . |00:22:09| Brody Yeah. I mean, that' ; s a thing that comes up a lot in these conversations that I' ; m having is the role that food plays in communicating culture. What are your thoughts around the power or role of food to tell people or teach people about your culture? |00:22:27| Sirisavath I think. You know, food is, literally, the bridge, you know, to bridge a gap in culture, I think everyone can resonate with someone through food. I think that' ; s part of my mom' ; s teaching was when she opened, finally opened, her third and last restaurant was which was Bai Bua. She did Thai food, and she did Thai food her way. And I think a lot of times, you know, she got...In a way, she can kind of like, " ; Well, you' ; re not Thai, you' ; re Lao, you' ; re making Thai food." ; But, you know, there are a lot of people making different kind of food. But for her, at the time, in order for people to understand what the food was, she had to make Thai food. It' ; s like every culture, right? Well, we start off, a lot of Chinese restaurants were well known in America, and not people know, not much people know our food. So what do you have to cook first? You have to cook something that' ; s prevalent and common in your community. So that' ; s what my mom did was cook Thai food because we grew up in a Thai community in San Antonio. So, but that' ; s how my mom is. She creates Thai food but creates her own way. But the way, that' ; s...magnificent way. But that' ; s her way of showcasing that you can' ; t just be one ethnic group to make a different ethnic group food. You can be any type of ethnic food as long you take your time, effort to, you know, immerse yourself in a culture. I think that' ; s what it was with her. So with her making Thai food and letting people know like this is part of Lao culture as well too, because Lao and Thai has a close, close, close identity within each other. And a lot of food to this day, a lot of Lao food, are immersed into Thai food, but Thai food is only known for Pad Thai, Pad See Ew, Pad Kee Mow, these basic dishes. But then, like when you say " ; laab." ; Laab is actually a dish that was created from a lot of immigrants that lived in Nong Khai or like east of Thailand, which is the Isan province, right? So those foods started to trickle into Thailand and eventually now it' ; s called Thai food. But for me, I think Lao food needs to be showcased a little bit more. I think that' ; s where we' ; re having a conversation now, is that in order for us to have an identity, we have to showcase our food to the masses and to the world. Because if we don' ; t have an identity, you know, someone else can take our identity from us. So I think that' ; s where food resonates for people like and then it becomes a storytelling, it becomes a conversational piece versus just, " ; Hey, this is good food." ; Where is it from? Like it' ; s from Laos and a Lao person makes it now versus a Thai person or Chinese or whatever. But the thing is now, I think that' ; s part of why I' ; ve created Khao Noodle Shop was that I wanted to represent my culture, my upbringing, also, mainly my mom, my inspiration for cooking to this day. I think she was before her time. She, you know, she was creating dishes. I mean, Thai dishes, Chinese dishes, Lao dishes, French dishes. Magnificent in her own kind of way. I think at the time there' ; s no worldwide web where you can just " ; Hey...this person' ; s the best chef." ; And like other times, she was the best chef. I think her restaurant was nominated best Thai food in San Antonio for, I think, two or three consecutive years. And, you know, that tells you that she knew what she was doing. But also a Lao person making that type of food was some like, you know, like no one heard of what a Lao person is. And then eventually she started making Lao dishes on her menu. Part of it because I' ; m like, " ; Mom, like, why? Why do you not make stuff you make at home?" ; You know, I was like. A part of it because, yeah, we' ; re in a Thai community. We go to a Thai temple, but a lot of Thai. You know, a lot of Lao people go to the Thai Temple, too, because, you know, our religion is the same, Buddhism. So we have a Buddhist temple. They all come together. I think that' ; s what the community should be versus, you know, your Indian, Thai, Lao, Vietnamese, you know, we' ; re all Asian. So no matter who we are, we always can be, you know, immersed within our own cultures through food. I think that' ; s where the ultimate reflection and history is behind cooking, because we use a lot of spices from India that, you know, migrated from India, like literally trading spice and trading recipes. I think that' ; s what our community is about. You know, we don' ; t take from each other, we share with each other. I think that' ; s where our growth comes from, from a community of food and a language of food. |00:27:32| Brody That' ; s great. Can you describe to me Lao food for someone who never had it? How would you describe Lao food? |00:27:43| Sirisavath So a lot of people ask me these questions. Like Lao food is very bright and vibrant because the flavors. The flavors are very bold. Very bold and funky, right? That everyone knows that we use a lot of fish sauce, fermented fish sauce as well. Shrimp paste, fermented crab. I think the reason why our food is a lot on the funkier side because preserving. Preservation. A lot of villagers are you know, there' ; s no refrigerator in the village, there' ; s no electricity in a village. So a lot of that stuff becomes fermentation curing to preserve what you have for the season. And that' ; s the old school kind of way of teaching of how you keep your gathering from fall for summer, so on, so forth. It' ; s the old teaching, right? And I think this day, everyone' ; s doing this fermentation and curing and pickling, but that' ; s the old way of saving food for the family. I think for a lot of food wise, we just kind of have it where it' ; s you can cure or ferment everything right. If you want to sun dry some tomatoes, that' ; s what we do. And like seaweed, but not seaweed, but river weed. We like to you know, sun dry, river weed so we can use it in different ingredients. Because, you know, being a landlocked island or land where we don' ; t have that much accessibility to seafood, but we have a lot of rivers. Mekong River, to be an example, one, the biggest river in Southeast Asia, you know, a lot of fishermen fish off the Mekong River. So in order for them to make dishes better or have that umami was create fish sauce. I think that' ; s where our food is about...It' ; s gathered, you know, foraging off the land, fermenting, preserving off the land because villages are small in Laos. There' ; s, you know, maybe a hundred members in a village, two hundred, three hundred members in a village at a time. So every province, every north, southern, central of Laos, every different type of cuisine and type of way of making Lao food. It' ; s like you have Hmong food, which is more northern end of Lao and you know, there are more ____ on the Chinese side. So a lot of fermentations are, you know, driven from Chinese, southern Chinese, fermentation or curing. Like the tofu, you know, tofu or bean. That' ; s kind of like something that' ; s brought from Hmong culture because, you know, you have to preserve things. And I think that' ; s what Lao food was about- preserving your food, preserving your history, preserving your culture. And so when people ask, " ; Well, why do you guys use a lot of fish sauce?" ; I think that that' ; s the reason why, because that' ; s part of our preservation of our culture and we use that for everything. Fish sauce is love of life. And then of course, sticky rice. Sticky rice is our starch, you know, our bread. That we use as often as much as everything else. It' ; s our bread to Americans, right? It' ; s cheap and it' ; s easy to be grown. So that' ; s why you hear a lot about sticky rice in Lao food. And we use that as a vessel to like dip and scoop our meals and our food that we eat with. And we eat with our hands quite a bit. And you know, the transition from that, you know, from the village foods that are known for villagers, eating you know I' ; ll call it " ; farm raised" ; but " ; village raised" ; chicken or pork, is that that' ; s what they' ; d have for maybe the week or a month whatever. So, you know, that' ; s why we some of the chicken that we use are younger chicken or a younger hen, so it' ; s called the ____ Gai it' ; s like chewy meat, but it' ; s stewed down. So there' ; s different types of variation of meats that we use for different things. I mean Lao food is a little complicated to explain, but I think for us it' ; s more about utilizing what' ; s around us. Same as us, right? As my mom being an immigrant from Laos, she didn' ; t have the ingredients that she had from in Laos. So she had to adapt, adapt to her environments, where I don' ; t have the fish sauce that I had at home, so then I' ; ll have to ferment my own here. And the type of fish is different from what I have in Laos. Different ingredients. Basil, mint has different breeds of mints and basils here. Peppers same thing. So she had to adapt to her surrounding environment to make the Lao dishes that she craved or made at home back in Laos. So the word " ; authenticity" ; right? That' ; s where everyone talks about this. So it' ; s like, oh, when they come to my restaurant to Khao Noodle Shop, " ; That' ; s not the Lao food. It' ; s not authentic." ; I' ; m like, " ; It' ; s authentic to me." ; And then I think to my upbringing to where I can showcase my individuality in the dish versus making a homemade meal of like Mok Pa or laab, which is like a steamed fish or chicken salad, right. Or like the Tam Mak Hoong is because every household makes things differently. And I have this argument every time with my friends or people of my ethnic background, telling me that this is not true Lao food or not true Thai food. It' ; s everything is like an art piece, right? It' ; s subject to your interpretation. Food is art, right? So that' ; s the thing that I need to let people understand. Like this is my individuality, making my masterpiece and making my art piece. You can think what you need to think, but in essence and true essence for myself, this is what I believe is the best for me and best for my business. And I think that' ; s what needs to be the language of the culture is through the food. If it is through food, you make, if it' ; s honest within yourself and authentic within yourself, then the food is authentic for yourself, and it doesn' ; t need to be authentic for anyone else. But as long you stay true to yourself and about the food you make, the culture, the love for your culture, I think that' ; s authentic enough for me. |00:34:11| Brody Yeah. I mean, it sounds like even what you were saying about the sort of the cultural context of Lao food, a lot of the food traditions, it sounds like, came out of necessity of preservation. And you also mentioned regional differences depending on what grows or what you can get. So, and also your mom, you know, when your mom' ; s cooking, she was putting her own spin on it based on the ingredients that she could find. So, I mean, I will come back to the question of authenticity. But it does sound like, especially in a tradition where there' ; s a lot of home cooking that is being transformed into restaurant meals, that that would be an area of controversy. |00:34:57| Sirisavath Yeah. Most definitely. |00:34:59| Brody So after you finished high school in San Antonio and then what happened next? |00:35:08| Sirisavath So after...I actually dropped out of high school. So I dropped out of high school, met a girl at the time. I don' ; t want to go into details. Anyways. So I mean, at the time my mom was running operating Bai Bua, which was her Thai restaurant. So " ; bai bua" ; is the lotus leaf. So it' ; s like you know where the lotus leaf blossoms and becomes a lotus. So that' ; s Bai Bua. So I' ; ve always helped my mom at the restaurant after school when I can or when I feel felt like it. You know, being a teenager and don' ; t really want to work. And you know, I have some regrets about not helping my mom each and every single day that I could, because I' ; m going through that struggle because it' ; s hard to find help, hard to find staff right now. So my mom, same way it was hard to find workers that can deal with her first of all because she' ; s a very perfectionist person and she' ; s like, " ; This is my dish, don' ; t mess it up" ; kind of thing. So she' ; s very...I wouldn' ; t call her a dictator, but when it comes to food, she' ; s like, " ; This is my food, don' ; t mess it up." ; But yeah, so I help my mom for, for a little bit. At the time, I was still in high school, about to finish high school, and I decided to drop out. My mom wanted to know why I was dropping out of school. She was like, " ; You' ; re like our...not our last hope. But you know, you were born here. There is no reason why you should not finish school." ; But I think part of part of the reason why I didn' ; t finish school was, you know, I kept on moving from, you know, Amarillo, learning English a late age, got held back in first grade, not speaking English as much as I should because my mom was an immigrant. She didn' ; t know English. So for her, it was hard for her to teach me English at home. So I think part of why I grew up, when I grew up, I felt like again, I felt like I was a refugee because I did not have the proper education of most kids. Home schooling, you know, from my mom and moving from Amarillo to San Antonio that was a, I want to say I felt like I was uprooted from my country. That' ; s what it felt like because I moved to a city that I had no friends, very different from my upbringing in Amarillo, Texas. So a lot more Hispanic nationalities and not many immigrants. And culture wise, I was kind of culture shocked. Where am I at? You know, San Antonio is very, you know, Hispanic culture, Mexican culture. I loved it, though, but it was it was to where I didn' ; t know the language as well because, you know, all my friends spoke Spanish. I' ; ll go to my friend' ; s house ; their parents will speak Spanish to me. I' ; m like, " ; Si." ; You know, like and actually this is kind of going off subject, but one day I was eating at my friend' ; s house, and I forgot what dish she made for us but just was so amazing. I' ; m like, " ; Ms. ___, what dish is this?" ; Like, " ; You' ; ve never had that before? Like, your parents don' ; t cook their home for you?" ; Like, " ; No." ; So, like " ; What do they cook for you?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Lao food." ; " ; Lao food? Like what do you mean Lao food?" ; Like, " ; Yeah, I' ; m Lao. I' ; m Thai." ; . She' ; s like, " ; No, no, it' ; s Chino. What? I thought all this time you' ; re Mexican." ; Like, no, you know, no I' ; m Asian. |00:38:51| Brody That' ; s funny. |00:38:52| Sirisavath Well, yeah, so, I mean, that was. It was funny, but she still loved it. |00:38:56| Brody What dish was it? |00:38:57| Sirisavath I forgot what it was. Like literally, it' ; s kind of...Because I never had it, you know? I never had it. And I only had it at my friend' ; s house. It was just like a stew. It was not pozole. It was similar. But it was like green, like stewy dish. Like it was so good and ever since then we' ; re like I thought...It felt like I just like broke her heart. But she was funny about it. But yeah. So going back to, you know, leaving school after dropping out, my mom gave me an opportunity. It' ; s like, " ; Well, since you' ; re not going to go to school, at least you can work. So here' ; s the keys to the restaurant." ; I' ; m like, " ; Huh? What?" ; " ; Happy birthday." ; And like, it was my birthday too at the time. So I' ; m like, " ; What do I with this?" ; Mom' ; s like, " ; I want you take over the restaurant." ; Like how? Like, I was like, " ; I don' ; t know, Mom." ; I' ; m like, I literally was speechless at the time. Not just that, because it was just a flattering gift. It' ; s like, " ; Wow. You trust me to run a restaurant for you, Mom?" ; Wow. But then again, like, I felt guilty because I didn' ; t help her at the restaurant as much I should. So I think that more of the guilt kind I gave the key back to her. You know? So I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I don' ; t think can do this, mom. It' ; s a lot of stress, a lot of work that goes into it. You know, I just want to experience life for myself. I want to find myself." ; And she' ; s like, " ; Well, hopefully you can find yourself because, you know, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity." ; It' ; s like, " ; I understand." ; But I needed something for myself. And that time, I have a girlfriend. And I' ; m like, " ; I want to spend time with her." ; And so my mom' ; s like, " ; I guess I have to sell the restaurant then." ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I guess you have to. I' ; m sorry." ; So she sold the restaurant. I kind of just kind of, trying to experience life for myself, worked at, you know, Jack in the Box for a little bit, worked at a carwash, and then worked at Benihanas. So I' ; m like, " ; Ok. Well, I' ; m good at working in the restaurant," ; so went to work at Benihana for a little bit. Experienced learning how to, you know, do teppanyaki, hibachi chef and then worked there for a little bit in Austin. I wasn' ; t... Because at the time they were about to open a location in San Antonio, so I' ; ll drive to Austin to train. They had an apartment building for us to stay in, but there was like ten people were staying at that apartment. It was like a two- or three-bedroom apartment. I' ; m like, " ; I' ; m not going to sleep on the sofa." ; I was like, " ; Ughhh." ; So I decided to sleep on my car. Yeah. So I was living in my car for probably close to a month. But I would go into the apartment to, like, take a shower or use restroom before our shifts. Sometimes I just go to a gym. I would sign up for like a week' ; s free trial just so I can take a shower, wash my face, and stuff like that. So because I mean, San Antonio is not that far from Austin and it' ; s a good for me, at the time where I was living at, it was a good hour drive. So instead of driving back home an hour, sometimes I just, " ; I' ; ll sleep in my car. It makes more sense." ; Plus, I had no gas money to go back and forth all the time. And save money for just living my car. So I did that for a little bit and just got burnt out, tired and where for me, I felt like it wasn' ; t worth it because, you know, losing sleep from sleeping in my car. Plus my car broke down on me. So, like alright, time to go back to San Antonio. So I went back to San Antonio. My brother' ; s like, " ; What are you going to do with your life?" ; I' ; m like, " ; I don' ; t know." ; So he said, " ; Well, come work with me." ; So then that' ; s when I had a job with him working on airplanes. I didn' ; t know anything about airplanes. I' ; m like, " ; What? Do I need school this? You know, like a degree?" ; Like, " ; No. I got you." ; Okay. And so then I worked at Performance Aviation, doing a field service technician. So my job was primarily fixing fuel tanks. Anything on planes that involves fuel, which is the wings, the belly, we take care of that stuff. So structure leaks, any kind of fastener leaks, we have to seal up the tanks to make sure there' ; s no fuel leaks. So I did that for a couple of years. Travelled a lot, experienced life for myself at a young age at 17, yeah, 17. Worked there for about two years and then came back to San Antonio, left that job, or almost got fired from that job. So I' ; m like, " ; No. I' ; m not getting fired. I quit. Y' ; all worked me too much." ; But yeah, I worked a lot at that job and then I didn' ; t know what to do with life. Came back. I felt like I was lost. At nineteen, twenty years old, I didn' ; t know what to do. Went to spend time with my brother in Florida, stayed with him for a little bit. At the time, I was online surfing the net when dialup was a thing, and then met a person on Asian Avenue, which was a like a Facebook for Asians. And then I met my girlfriend at time, Noy and she lived in Dallas. She was Lao. I was like, " ; I met a Lao person. Awesome." ; So then kind of communicated, talked for about six, seven months. And then I was like, " ; You know what? I' ; m going to move to Dallas. I need to get away from San Antonio. Experience something different." ; Then, yeah, moved to Dallas, met up and never left. I' ; m here in Dallas, but I think Dallas was something I missed from far as I grew up in Amarillo, in San Antonio, because Dallas was a city, especially Garland, a lot of Lao immigrants, and I think that' ; s something I felt like I was missing as well, too. So I met so many Lao people when in Garland still to this day. So now I call Garland my hometown. |00:45:05| Brody What was the community like? The Asian community, the Lao community in particular at that time that you came? |00:45:11| Sirisavath It was...Literally was something I missed. I think growing up in San Antonio was an identity crisis because I didn' ; t have much Lao friends. My Lao friends are more Thai, Isan so more Thai. And you know, the closest culture or ethnic group closest to Lao is Thai. And I' ; m part Thai, but I feel like the Lao community is more my background, my culture, my people. And it was very received. Like I kid you not. When I first moved to Dallas, I met my girlfriend and then went to a house party. And later when I went to the house party, her brother gives me a beer. He' ; s like...that' ; s a sign of welcoming, right? And especially in the Asian community, Lao community because you know, we love to drink and party. That' ; s what Lao culture is, and a lot of Lao culture is because we come together to celebrate life. I think that' ; s where I miss because in San Antonio, it' ; s like I' ; m just trying to find myself. I think that was really my moment of like, I felt home. Like I never felt home in any other place than in Garland and Dallas. And the people I was surrounded with, you know, friends and people I' ; d never met were so friendly, so friendly. Like, they made me feel welcome, made me feel like one of their boys that they grew up all, you know, for years. You know, I didn' ; t go to high school here, or middle school here, but I felt like I did. And so now it' ; s like that feeling of, " ; Oh, I' ; m one you guys." ; Like, " ; Yeah, you are, man. Like you' ; re one of our boys." ; To this day, you know, one of my good friends, you know, he' ; s like, " ; Man, you' ; re a Garland boy, man. You know, you even though you didn' ; t, wasn' ; t in, you know and didn' ; t go to school with us and whatnot," ; this guy, he was like, " ; Yeah, man, you' ; re a Garland boy. It' ; s like you' ; re part of us." ; Like, " ; Thank you. I' ; m in?" ; |00:47:10| Brody You fit in. |00:47:11| Sirisavath Yeah. |00:47:12| Brody So then what was the turning point for you to get back into the food business? |00:47:17| Sirisavath Yeah. So the turning point when I worked in Dallas for much different odd jobs and then, you know, eating at the house and was always at house parties all the time. So, eating at everyone' ; s house meant eating that Lao food. I was like, " ; Wow. This...I miss this food." ; It reminded so much of my mom' ; s food as well too because after I dropped out of high school, I literally moved out of the house. So, I moved out when I was 17 years old and never looked back and never moved back. So then it kind of brought me home like, you know, when you' ; re missing something, food is where it' ; s home for you. That' ; s what I tell people too, it' ; s like, no matter where you are in the world, if you have that homecooked style meal, it makes you feel comfort and it gives you that hug in your stomach and eventually in your heart. Right? I tell people all the time, that' ; s what my food' ; s is trying to be. So yeah...So I felt like, you know, Lao food. I found my place. I found Lao food again. So then I started to experiment, cook at home again. I haven' ; t cooked in a long time, so I start cooking and my mom came to visit me one time. She' ; s like " ; Why' ; d you move to Dallas?" ; Oh yeah. " ; Here is my girlfriend and stuff." ; And I cooked a meal for her. It was Khao Poon which is vermicelli noodles, but it' ; s with red curry, coconut stewed down with chicken, like chicken feet, pork blood. And I didn' ; t have any chicken that time, I had canned tuna. Like " ; I got tuna. Here." ; So I made it for her, and she looked at me. She' ; s like, " ; Who taught you to make this." ; I' ; m like, " ; You did." ; She' ; s like, " ; I did not teach you how to make this." ; I was like, well, " ; I watched you make it from afar, and I remember it when you made it. The smell, the taste. Figured that you put this in, put that in, and bam." ; And she' ; s like, " ; Boy, you have something. Don' ; t let it go to waste. You know how to cook. I' ; m glad you' ; re cooking again." ; And she left it at that. And then a couple of years later, you know, also visits me and she' ; s always cooking at home when she comes to visit us. And she' ; s always dragging me in the kitchen, like, I was boy again. Like, " ; Come help me." ; I' ; m like, " ; No, Mom. Now, that I' ; m a grown adult, I won' ; t help you." ; But I would watch her, help her wash vegetables. You know, she would tell me how to cook this, how to watch for this temperature on this, you know, put your finger on it in the rice to make sure you have enough water, kind of, you know, the old school teaching of like I missed that as a child. And I think part of it, I think she knew she had a limited time left on this world. Backtrack because when she was back in Laos, she had a fortuneteller to read her fortune. And the fortune told her that she would die at a young age. Not young age, but at least at a certain time in her life. And I think that' ; s what' ; s always been in her mind. And eventually, I think that' ; s part of the reason why she came to visit us so often. She lived in San Antonio and would drive every weekend, come visit us, stay a week or two and drive back. And I think that' ; s, now that I think of it, I didn' ; t know until she told us afterwards. So, her last trip was when she went to Thailand, came back- Thailand, Laos- came back and then we went to my best friend' ; s wedding. Jack' ; s wedding in Tennessee, and we had a good time, celebrating life. Saw my mom and dad dancing together. Hadn' ; t seen them dance together in forever and the dance floor. It was a magical moment. And to this day, I never will ever forget that moment. And she came back home., starting to have jaundice. Like her eye was like yellow, bloodshot yellow. Skin was starting to turn yellow. I' ; m like, " ; What' ; s going on, Mom?" ; Took her to a hospital. You know, questions, the typical questions. " ; Where have you travelled?" ; So " ; Just came from Thailand, Laos." ; Oh. Every time, " ; Hepatitis." ; You know, like, that' ; s like the number one thing that comes to doctors. " ; Oh, you went to Asia?" ; " ; Yeah, Hepatitis C or something." ; And then they ran two tests it' ; s like, " ; No, it' ; s not hepatitis. Okay. We had to do in endoscopic surgery to see some maybe mass or something." ; And they did something and found a blockage in her bile duct, and it was cancerous. And so I' ; m like, " ; How do you get a tumor in a bile duct." ; And it connects your bowel, your gall bladder, to your liver. So can' ; t just remove it. Apparently, it' ; s a surgery that' ; s never done or is not...And there' ; s only a few cases in America, like 1200, 1500 cases. So is a very rare, very rare cancer. And a doctor told us, like, " ; Oh, well, your mom has about a year and a half to two years to live. It' ; s terminal." ; Oh, it was heartbreaking. I think my mom kind of knew it, but she didn' ; t know it was like going to be like this. And she stayed with us in Dallas. We took her to do chemotherapy each and every single day. She stayed with it with me and my brother at our house. So we always cooking, involving, talking, arguing. Most of the time, more than anything else, is more bickering then having a civil conversation. But yeah. Eventually she wanted to go back to San Antonio because, she knows, she' ; s going to pass. She wants pass at home. And while cooking at home with my mom, she was telling me, you know, " ; I' ; ll miss you. You know, I miss, I miss you, you know, cooking for me because I know that I won' ; t have one of your meals ever again, because this would be my last time to cook with you. So come down and cook with me." ; And she has a simple dish. Simple dish. It' ; s one of her favorite dish was a bitter melon. She loves bitter melon. And she just, she does it different from everyone else. And she loved to cook it in eggs. She would put scrambled eggs and with the bitter melon. And she' ; s sitting there teaching me and my brother, like " ; This how you do it." ; Over and over every morning. Wake up. She would like two or three mornings, she would teach us this dish. And then one of her last dish that she taught me to make was sukiyaki. It' ; s a sukiyaki sauce that she makes, and everyone loves her sukiyaki sauce. It' ; s one of the best sauce, like she makes this... It' ; s the essence of what kind of Lao culture is, but also influenced from Japanese, because sukiyaki is a Japanese word. But it was brought by the soldiers, Japanese soldiers in Laos, but it became something else. But my mom taught me how to make that sukiyaki, and that day was just about patience. I understood now, like when you cook, you have to have time and patience. You can' ; t rush things because sukiyaki is a dish where you have to sit there and stir and stir and stir. I' ; m talking about maybe an hour, hour, and a half at most. And my mom was like, " ; No, you got to. You can' ; t walk away. You walk away, you' ; re going to burn the peanuts and dry shrimp in there." ; So you have to keep on stirring until it...to where your coconut milk reduces, so separates from the oil, the coconut oil. So that' ; s when you know your dish is ready and done. And so that' ; s when the whole cooking, my feel for cooking came back again, was cooking that last dish for my mom. And to this day, I' ; ve not perfected that dish, but I' ; m close to it. And so I told myself and my mom' ; s like, " ; I want you to cook. I want you to do something that' ; s more meaningful to have purpose versus you just try to collect a paycheck and trying to find yourself. I think you found yourself just not looking hard enough." ; And I think that was what it really started my cooking voyage to this day. So when she passed, I kind of dedicated my time to tell her story. And I know, at the time, even though I left all my jobs, and I landed a good job, which with HP being a field service engineer, even though I have no degree, but I have a lot of experience on computers and do a lot of computer jobs. I landed at that job. It was like a dream job, you know, work at home, have a company car, cell phone, laptops, you know, everything, you know, gas card and AMEX, like you name it. It was a dream job. But I felt still a void. And I just hear my mom' ; s voice in my back of my head, it' ; s like " ; Start cooking, you know, you' ; ll find purpose." ; And I think that' ; s what happened. I started cooking more at home. And then eventually cooked for my friends. Had my friends come over you know, just have a meal. And they' ; re like, " ; Man, I didn' ; t know you know how to cook. " ; Like, " ; I' ; ve been cooking all my life. I just haven' ; t cooked for you guys." ; I think that' ; s when the awakening happened was when my friends told me the dishes I was making was phenomenal. It was something as comforting. It was Lao, but in your own way. I' ; m like, " ; Thank you. All right." ; And then one of my buddies, Tang he' ; s, like, " ; Man, why don' ; t you just like do pop ups." ; " ; What' ; s pop ups?" ; You know, he' ; s like, " ; A lot of chefs does that in, like, L.A., New York, underground food scene where they just get yourself noticed and their food noticed." ; And this is where the food voyage comes from. It' ; s cook at home, gather some friends together, have a conversation. And this is stuff...The point of our culture is within the food you serve and with our friends coming, having conversation, gathering, and understanding that Lao food can be something else. And that' ; s where I' ; m like the light bulb went out and went up, right? I' ; m like, " ; Oh, yeah. You know what? Maybe I just needed to do Lao food my way." ; Have it where it' ; s more creative, but also tells people who I am. I' ; m Asian, Lao, Texan, American. So I can put myself in these dishes and showcase myself to the world and to what my mom taught me and what she inspired me to be. And that' ; s where five became fifteen. Fifteen became twenty. So I' ; m like, " ; Alright. This condo is getting too small." ; So that' ; s when I started doing pop-up at my friend' ; s bar. People' ; s Last Stand. They had a bar and a small kitchen. Kind of made sense, like " ; You can make money off the bar. I can make money off the food and showcase my food." ; So that' ; s where it happened and it just kind of blew up. And I' ; m just doing small dishes here and there. And I love, you know, Lao food has so much dishes that no one knows of. And also it tells a story of my upbringing and being Lao, Asian-American, Thai as well. So a lot of these dishes became my story and pop-ups lasted for about four years. And then one of my friends that helped me start up the pop-up was |00:59:22|Kai. He' ; s actually Vietnamese, but he loves to cook, and we connect through food. And I think that' ; s what another lesson is. You know, you build friendship through food as well, too. I think that' ; s where our connection happened was through our, the food that we' ; re making. And he started with me and then had another friend. So we never...We met, but not, physically. You know, we have mutual friends, but we haven' ; t met physically. But, you know, he saw what I was doing. His name is Tex. And Tex was like, " ; Hey, man, I love what you' ; re doing, dude. You let me know when you need help. I' ; ll come and I' ; ll help you on your pop-ups." ; Okay. " ; Well, I' ; m going to do pop-ups every other week, weekend, so come out." ; So we did pop-up there around different friends' ; bars. And then I' ; m like, " ; You know what? I need to open a restaurant." ; So I went back to Laos and Thailand, Cambodia. You know, just there, Southeast Asian like food trip. But it' ; s just trying to explore what Southeast Asian food is, not just Lao food. And what, you know, type of chefs are doing and what type of foods are cooking. Because I don' ; t have someone that I can rely on now because I don' ; t have my mom. You know, I have my grandmom, but with her having dementia, her and her palate changed quite a bit. When she makes something, it' ; s like overly salted, like, " ; Grandma, food' ; s too salty." ; But yeah, so for me it was go back home to my mom' ; s, my homeland, motherland to experience for myself what Lao food, Thai food was about. And so then that' ; s when I got the idea. I' ; m like, " ; Okay, I know what I' ; m doing." ; I wanted to open a restaurant where it' ; s communal space. Because that' ; s what brings people together. Communal eating, which is the same thing my mom does. Brings the family together through communal eating. So I' ; m like, " ; Know what? Yeah. It makes sense." ; To have a conversation with a stranger that' ; s sitting next to you. Share a piece of rice or share a piece of this dish with the person next to you. And my mom was all that type of person. She' ; s all sharing, regardless of if she' ; d get money or not. So you know what? That' ; s where I need to be. So I told Tex like, " ; I have idea for a restaurant. This is my idea. Listen." ; He' ; s like, " ; Okay, what' ; s the idea?" ; So we' ; re going to do noodles. A noodle shop. But going to be Lao inspired noodles and then small dishes like tapas style. He' ; s like, " ; Okay, let me try and envision this. Alright, let' ; s go to Thailand." ; So we went to Thailand and like, you know, this is...The planning had happened already. The name happened. And you know like I had to have him to experience for himself. He hasn' ; t been back to Thailand for like fifteen years. Immersed into the Thai foods and street foods and went to the suburbs because you know, suburb food' ; s more like Isan food, which is the essence of Lao food. So he ate all this food and is like, " ; Okay, what' ; s your plan?" ; " ; Like you see all these small bowls that they serve in? Like, this is my idea: to serve noodles in these small bowls so they can eat multiple noodles, different type of noodles, as much or as little as they want. So they can experience the menu, experience the culture, and experience the livelihood of street food in Asia, you know, primarily in Laos and Thailand." ; He' ; s like, " ; Man that' ; s a great idea." ; And so Khao happened. And we came back and forth on the name, so I mentioned " ; Khao," ; but we went away from it and came up with a couple of names and " ; Khao" ; just resonated with me. And people ask me, " ; Why you came with Khao?" ; First off, " ; khao" ; is- it means " ; rice" ; in Laos and Thai. So that' ; s the whole saying of " ; We' ; re cheering on the rice farm instead of cheering on the corn farm." ; Fields. So, rice is our life. We thrive and survive on off of rice. That' ; s one thing, but also " ; khao" ; means like food. And then when you tell people to |01:03:40|______ gin khao, it' ; s like " ; we come together to eat." ; So it makes so much sense. " ; Khao." ; That' ; s the word for khao, bringing everyone together to enjoy a meal and have a conversational with a person that you might not know and becomes your friend, or so on and so forth. Like our journey as when we build a pop-up. You know, I didn' ; t know, you didn' ; t really know me, but we resonated with each other through the food we made. So that that' ; s where Khao happened. |01:04:11| Brody That' ; s really nice. Where was the restaurant located? |01:04:14| Sirisavath So we were going back and forth on looking location for Khao. My idea was a " ; hole in the wall" ; you know, like off the beaten path. And we' ; re like, " ; Yeah, you know, maybe. Maybe a shopping strip somewhere with foot traffic." ; I was like, " ; Nah, let' ; s make it fun. Let' ; s make a destination and find it." ; And then Tex is like, " ; Well, let me reach out to one of our landlords and see if they know anything." ; And then we reached out to a broker, but the broker doesn' ; t work for them, works for another group. It' ; s like, " ; Well, what are you looking for?" ; Like, " ; We' ; re look for a tiny, small space. Something that, you know, we' ; re going to make this noodle shop, blah, blah, blah." ; He goes, " ; Okay. I have a couple locations. One was in Bishop Arts, one of off of Walnut Hill off of 75, and then East Dallas." ; It was the second location and we looked at. Like " ; East Dallas, like this looks so familiar." ; I' ; m like, " ; Wait a minute. I know this neighborhood, like this neighborhood. I' ; ve been through this neighborhood multiple times when I first moved to Dallas. You know, there used to be a lot of Cambodian refugees, Lao refugees, and Vietnamese here." ; And Mai' ; s...Iike, " ; Yeah. I remember Mai' ; s." ; And then I saw Jade Garden. " ; Oh Jade Garden! Like one of our friends had a wedding here, like, a long time ago." ; And that neighborhood changed so much, I didn' ; t recognize it. And so, I' ; m like, " ; You know what?" ; Then we looked at the space. I' ; m like, " ; That space is so tiny." ; I' ; m like, " ; I don' ; t know." ; And it was right next to Mai' ; s. Mai' ; s is a staple of East Dallas, been there, you know, almost 30 years. So, like, you know, " ; It' ; s a lot of work. We' ; ll have to turn this place down." ; And, and so we, like, went back and forth, talked to my wife. She' ; s like " ; Where is this location at?" ; " ; It' ; s in East Dallas, it' ; s right next to Mai' ; s." ; It' ; s like, " ; Oh yeah, that was the first neighborhood that we were growing up in after we were sponsored from the International Rescue Committee and the Parkwood Baptist church where a lot of Southeast Asian groups were immigrant to." ; I' ; m like, " ; What? Really?" ; And it' ; s like kind, " ; There' ; s some gardens there, too." ; Like, " ; Yeah, that' ; s the garden my brother was in Boy Scout. They helped build those gardens too." ; Like, " ; Oh wait. No way." ; So something just like, you know, butterflies in my stomach and I' ; m like, " ; You know what? This is right. The right place. You know, it' ; s an immigrant neighborhood that' ; s been gentrifying. But let' ; s be that new growth of this neighborhood, a full circle." ; And so we decided to sign the lease and we signed a lease in February of 2017 and went to Thailand right afterwards to buy our supplies. Went to Laos, Thailand, bought our supplies. Our bowls, our equipment. Oh, yeah. It was crazy. And funny story, we have friends...His girlfriend had friends that went for a bachelor trip. So we had the girls ...like used them as mules, I' ; m sorry to say that, to bring equipment back for us. So we didn' ; t have to pay for shipping because you had two bags, you know, luggage. So yeah, it was a whole experience to open that shop. And, you know, it' ; s East Dallas next to Mai' ; s. Catty-corner from Jimmy' ; s Deli. Jimmy' ; s Deli' ; s been there for 50 years. And my wife was telling me, " ; I think I remember going to Jimmy' ; s, and I think I stole some bubblegum from the store." ; Like, " ; What?" ; So yeah. So that' ; s that was the idea of what Khao could, you know, should have been. And we didn' ; t anticipate the growth. You know, we' ; re like, " ; You know, hopefully we' ; ll be here for like, you know, two or three years and maybe we' ; ll have people come and it' ; ll be a line." ; You know, we were just joking like, " ; Yeah, you know, we' ; ll be that restaurant three years from now. People will be waiting outside two hours, three hours." ; It happened the first year. |01:08:10| Brody Tell me how the restaurant was received. |01:08:13| Sirisavath Oh, yeah, that' ; s how I mean...That restaurant, I mean, it blew up more than I expected. I reached out to a mutual friend at the time that runs Wabi House, Dien Nguyen. And he' ; s been in the industry for a long time and especially in Dallas. And I' ; m like asking him for mentorship pretty much. Like, " ; Where should I do? How should I do this? How can I get my name out?" ; And then he gave me a contact to his PR person, Teresa Nguyen. I reached out to her and talked to her, and she experienced the food that we made. " ; So your food' ; s phenomenal. What can I do to help?" ; Yeah. So she' ; s like, " ; What can I do to help you guys?" ; We' ; re like, well, " ; This is our game plan. We' ; re going to open a noodle shop, and it' ; s going to be tapas style, small portions, but it' ; s going to be Lao style." ; And she said, " ; Okay." ; So, you know, I pretty much pitched her the idea. Two dudes, you know, have somewhat a background in restaurants. Tex runs his parents' ; restaurants, Chicken Rice. It' ; s more like a Chinese fried chicken and fried rice kind of thing. But his parents established that business for 30 years. So we kind of have I mean, background of restaurants from our parents' ; restaurant to us running a real restaurant by ourselves. So we don' ; t really have real restaurant experience. But, you know, she believed in our vision and dream that we have and then kind of set a path for the growth for Khao. You know, we invited... We had an intimate, about the size of this table, like eight press that came in to introduce what we' ; re doing to, you know, get feedback as well too. Mainly get the feedback, not " ; Hey, here' ; s... This is going to be the number one restaurant in the world" ; kind of thing. It was like " ; This is an introduction to Chef Donny. This is who he is, where he' ; s coming from, where he' ; s about." ; So this is more, you know, it' ; s storytelling than anything else. And just to get feedback. We made our handmade, fresh noodles that we always do for our pop ups. And then boat noodles which me personally, it feels like it' ; s in my identity as growing up as a child, going back to Laos or Thailand, eating this noodle and off the boat with the ladies scooping it up. So it makes sense to have this dish. So we made this dish, made a couple other dishes. Sakoo, which is a tapioca dumpling, hand-rolled, with peanuts, pickled radish. And then everyone' ; s like, " ; What the heck is this?" ; I was, like, it' ; s tapioca, radish, and peanuts." ; Like, " ; How? It' ; s so sweet and savory at the same time." ; And then I made one of my mom' ; s favorite dessert, which is like a--if you ever go to dim sum--that ginger or tofu? Yeah. So it was like one of her favorite things to eat, that I made in my own interpretation, my way. And I made it cold instead of hot. So I made dessert and it was very well received, good feedback, met at the time Eve, she was a D Magazine food writer, and she just talked to me, was like, " ; I' ; ve never eaten a meal like this before. I feel like there' ; s a lot of love and care into this. So I can' ; t wait to, for you to open this restaurant." ; And then planned everything, opened the restaurant, and did a friends and family soft opening. It was, you know, pretty well-received. A lot of feedback. A lot of negative feedback. Of course, you know, " ; You' ; re not doing Laos food. You' ; re not...This is not traditional and whatnot." ; But yeah, I mean, we didn' ; t anticipate it and then Eve wrote a nice article for us and, then everything from there kind of went up. From Eater, one of the best new restaurants of2019 and then to the big one, Bon Appetit. Like, you know...And then at the time I was talking to my chef mentor, I call her my " ; chef mom" ; which is Chef Seng and she' ; s the pioneer for like Lao food to be progressive in this modern day. And you know she opened her Lao restaurant in the capital, DC. So I looked at her as, you know, a mentor and also getting feedback from her about what I' ; m doing, how things. And when I told her about Bon Appetit, she' ; s like, " ; You better get ready." ; It' ; s like, " ; Why?" ; Because they usually announce their first, you know, fifty best restaurants and then their ten best new restaurants. I was like, " ; Wow, really? Okay." ; It' ; s like, I didn' ; t know. I don' ; t you know, I' ; m not in the food industry like that. You know, I grew up in a restaurant, but not just in this big stage like that. And she' ; s like, " ; Just get ready." ; So okay, for me, I' ; m thinking, " ; Okay, we' ; ll be part of the fifty. I think I' ; m fine with that." ; You know. Okay. Fifty came up. " ; Where are we at? Okay, maybe we didn' ; t make it." ; Okay then a ten came out. Like, " ; We' ; re not part it. Wait, no, wait. There' ; s only seven. Oh, there' ; s a top three, too. Like what? Well, wait, wait, hold on." ; There' ; s fifty, ten. I' ; m like, " ; So you' ; re telling me we could be part of this top three?" ; It' ; s like, " ; Oh my God." ; And, like, I kid you not. Like, they did an interview. I didn' ; t know what that interview was for. Now I' ; m like, " ; Oh, maybe this is just what it was for." ; I' ; m like, " ; Why you guys didn' ; t tell me?" ; They had been, you know, very secretive. And when the announcement came up, you know, top three restaurant in the United States, you know, number three, number two. " ; What? We' ; re the number two restaurant in a country?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God." ; I lost it. I' ; m like, " ; Wow." ; |01:14:26| Brody What was your reaction? |01:14:27| Sirisavath I just, I couldn' ; t believe it. I just couldn' ; t believe it. Like number two restaurant. Lao food. Lao restaurant. Like, how is that possible? Konbi is a Japanese sandwich shop. We were number two. Lao restaurant. I' ; m like, " ; How the heck? How?" ; |01:14:44| Brody That' ; s incredible. Congratulations on that. You mentioned not having come into the food industry through culinary school and all of that and, you know, but rather growing up in a restaurant. How did that make you feel to win a big chef award? |01:15:09| Sirisavath For me, I was speechless. And also, I mean, I was proud at the moment, but also, I felt like I' ; ve done justice for our culture and especially for Lao culture, right? And then I left at that for that moment. I' ; m like, " ; You know what? I' ; m doing it just for all of us, for all Southeast Asian, not just Lao culture, but all Southeast Asian culture. Because we always get overlooked and, you know, we always get Japanese food, Korean food, Chinese food. But never Southeast Asian, no Indian, no Cambodian, no Lao, no Vietnamese. You know, Vietnamese are getting their moment. You know, Philippines getting their moment. But Lao food, Cambodian food, no one knows. So that' ; s the thing for me was like, it' ; s for all of us. And you know, we didn' ; t expect even to be on the top ten and top three and like and then we got invited to New York. I was like, " ; What?" ; It just...It was just like ; it was just amazing. You know, I have never envisioned that to happen even the first year. And I' ; m like maybe ten years from now, but never the first year and, you know, I was...had a speech for my team and my crew at the time. It was that I' ; m doing this for all of us, not for just me. And I want everyone to grow within us as Khao. If we can' ; t grow together, we' ; re going to grow apart. But that' ; s okay because that' ; s something that you can grow apart because you need to find your own way. I' ; m okay with that. And that' ; s part of the reason why when I have a gathering, I take a team with us. You know, not every team member got to go, but majority of them got to go to New York with us. And it was an experience that, you know, I wish, and I hope they still to this day, you know have are blessed about that experience because I don' ; t think ever, ever have that kind of experience ever again. So it was mainly for my team, for to win number two restaurant in the nation. It wasn' ; t for me. It was for my culture, for my team, for the people that supported me through all this effort and new pop ups. So I never thought it was for myself and then, you know, coming back and lines, like lines and lines. You know, when we first came back opening at...I couldn' ; t grasp how much our vision came to fruition. Like we talked about this. Having this dream, you know, people coming, waiting in line and all this stuff. And it, it' ; s right outside our door. And it wasn' ; t just outside our door, it was around the building. Like, you know, people were waiting three hours out there. It was so amazing, though. Well received. I had to hire so many people just to make sure that we can, you know, keep up with the masses, keep up with the glamor and so on, so forth. You know, labor costs were through a roof. We knew that. But we had to keep on moving forward to showcase the food we created within our home, you know, through our parents and now to the masses. And for us to...And I tell this all the time, like, " ; We' ; re number two. Sucks, but we' ; re number one in your heart." ; Remember that. We' ; re number one in your heart and stomach. But to this day, I still can' ; t believe how much people well received from all around the world because we had customers... And this is when I was able to really greet customers, talk to customers. And that' ; s something my mom did at her restaurant. You know, her teaching was always customers and employees comes first. Take care of your customers, take care of your employees, because those are the ones that will continue to support you. And I always do that with my team, i always support my team regardless of who they are. And some might not ever think that I care for them. I always care for every single member of my team regardless of if they work there for one day, two days, three days, whatever. I saw they put effort into believing what we did there. And I met so many customers from out of the country. Iceland, Switzerland, England, Brazil. You know, Spain. I' ; m like, " ; What? How the heck do you guys know?" ; They' ; re like, " ; You' ; re number two restaurant in the United States...You' ; re in Conde Nast Magazine, which is international. You' ; re understand that, right?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So it was it was literally, I felt like I was in a dream. Seriously a dream. And then that dream came crashing in 2020. |01:19:59| Brody Oh, well, but before that, you had more even more accolades, right? You personally got recognized by the James Beard? |01:20:06| Sirisavath Yes. I mean, that was part of when I was in Thailand. Because we went to my business partner, Tex' ; s wedding, him and Annie. Annie was our front of the house manager, and we went for the wedding. And it was hard because, you know, we went through that whole year of working your butt off and it' ; s our occasion. And the same thing, you know, we were able to take a couple of our team members with us. I told them, " ; Just pay your plane ticket. You know, pretty much you' ; re on paid vacation. You' ; re going to get paid vacation." ; And that' ; s what it was. Like three, four of our team was able to go. And at the time I was there, and we came back, that' ; s when COVID happened, right before COVID happened. So we went there, had a good time, had a vacation, had a break. Came back, you know, getting rested up and then I had to fly out again in three weeks to do a Lao food retreat for Lao Food Movement and you know to bring Lao chefs together all around the world to our organization. Channapha, she was the leader for Legacies of War, so she was coming up with this idea, " ; Hey, let' ; s bring Lao chefs together." ; So I was like, " ; Okay, cool." ; And literally, the week before I was supposed to depart, I caught the flu. It was pretty bad. I almost had to cancel my whole trip. But instead I postponed my trip like a week later. So then I kind of recuperated. I' ; m like, " ; This flu is getting bad." ; And here comes the news... COVID, you know, coronavirus. I' ; m like, " ; I don' ; t think I caught it." ; So I went in and got tested to make sure. This was very new. So then my result came back as Influenza B instead A. So it' ; s more in the swine flu. So it' ; s like, " ; Okay, maybe I don' ; t have it." ; Anyway, I go back to Thailand, I' ; m still kind of feeling out of it. I was like, " ; Man, they' ; re doing this temperature check." ; I' ; m like, " ; I don' ; t know if going to get accepted." ; You know, like, I' ; m not hot, but, you know, I just feel like I' ; m still sick. But I have to go to this event and plus I have to meet my dad in Thailand. Went there and that' ; s when I got the news. And everyone' ; s like blowing up my phone, like, " ; Did you hear?" ; I' ; m like " ; What you mean?" ; " ; Congratulations." ; " ; What are we talking about?" ; James Beard Semifinalist. Like, " ; What? You' ; ve got to be kidding me." ; Like, no way. You know, the time difference. I was, you know, falling asleep, my phone' ; s blowing up. I' ; m like, " ; No way." ; I thought, " ; Okay. All right." ; So my plan was when I come back, we' ; re going to hit it hard. We' ; re going to, you know, continue our growth, and make amazing food. Continues telling a story, inspiring other chefs, other home cooks whoever to become someone they know that they can be. Come back and then...Not just came back. So before...Right before I came back, I also found out that I was part of Food & ; Wine " ; Best Ten New Chefs." ; Like, no, like, come on. |01:23:09| Brody Amazing. Congratulations. |01:23:11| Sirisavath I' ; m like " ; What?" ; I like, " ; No, this is not real. This is not real." ; I' ; m like, this is definitely a dream. Definitely a dream." ; You know, one thing is Bon Appétit. James Beard. But Food & ; Wine " ; Best New Chefs." ; Like, " ; No. You guys you guys have this wrong. You guys. No." ; I come back and they' ; re like, " ; No. You' ; re a part of the new " ; Best New Chefs" ; for 2020, class of 2020." ; Like, " ; Oh my God. This is where I felt like, you know, winning Bon Appetit, winning James Beard, or not even winning, but nominated for James Beard, that was for my team. That was for the culture, for us, to put us on the map. But to win Food & ; Wine was like I felt like, you know what? I had to be selfish. This is for me. I can hear my mom in the back of my head like, " ; This is for you. You understand that. You know, you did everything that you could do, but accept this one because this is for you. It' ; s ' ; Best New Chef.' ; You are the chef. You are a chef." ; I' ; m like, " ; Damn. I am a chef now. I' ; m not a home cook or mama' ; s boy cook, learn from...I' ; m like I' ; m a chef. Like, wow." ; Like it' ; s a title that I know that rarely people use. I mean people use " ; chef" ; quite a bit and for me to learn the meaning of " ; chef" ; is involvement in the food you make, the experience you create for the diners, the food that you source, the dishes that you create artistically and emotionally, and also to your way of conveying a message. That' ; s what " ; chef" ; is about. It' ; s doing everything. It' ; s not just cooking one dish. It' ; s breaking down the protein, picking leaves, cleaning bathrooms, cleaning dishes. That' ; s what a chef is, and I literally saw that in my mom, but no one ever gave her that recognition as a chef because she did everything and she immersed herself into the business to the point where it drove her crazy, almost to a point where she stressed herself out. And now I' ; m going through those motions. But you know. It builds character, right? Food builds character. Business builds character. Involvement in your own culture builds character because you know more about yourself than you thought you knew. And that' ; s what food does to people. |01:25:49| Brody You mentioned the storytelling aspect of what you' ; re trying to do with your menu and your cooking. I wondered if you could talk about, as you decide what goes on the menu, how much are you thinking about educating or storytelling and how much about specifically food? |01:26:15| Sirisavath So for me, like Khao Noodle Shop...like I said, to this day, Khao Noodle Shop will be a passion project. I understand passion projects sometimes don' ; t make you money. I understand that now. But passion is also through grit and grind. You have to be able to put in your work and time into making something beautiful. And even a passion project, you can' ; t just say " ; I have passion, I have drive. I can make a dish." ; No. It gets you there. But it doesn' ; t it get you a hundred percent there? The other part of it is that storytelling. When you have passion, you have stories. Dishes that you create is the journey and the story through your life. I think that' ; s part of why Khao is so special, because every dish that I make at Khao is a story behind it. Like the boat noodles. Boat noodles was a dish that when I first went to Thailand as a young child, eating that dish, was so amazing and so fun because I was eating off a boat and this old lady pouring it out and giving it to me. And same thing. I' ; m like, " ; Mom, what' ; s this dish that' ; s so good?" ; It' ; s like, so rich and hearty and flavorful and it' ; s like, " ; It' ; s the pork blood they put in." ; And I' ; m like, " ; What the heck? Pork blood." ; As a young child, like, " ; No." ; But then I asked her, like, " ; Can you make this dish at home?" ; Like, " ; Well, yeah, I' ; ll make it for you." ; So as a child, to remember that essence of me going to Southeast Asia, that for the very first time as a child, that was my first dish that I remember eating. And then everything else follows through, like making like Khao Poon, Khao Poon noodles. That was that dish I made for my mom that she said she didn' ; t teach me how to make, but she did. I mean, she didn' ; t physically taught me how to make that dish. But, you know, it was more of a... what' ; s that word I' ; m looking for...osmosis kind of way of teaching. So I kind of absorbed that from her, from her movement of and her smell and just kind of... she was a artist like. And so she' ; s like a conductor of, you know, these dishes, of these ingredients when she' ; s putting food in, an ingredient into the soup or whatever and grabbing a little pinch of salt here, eyeballing everything. It' ; s like she' ; s the conductor of her dish and everything comes out and it' ; s just a beautiful dish like, you know, composing a beautiful music and a symphony. So that' ; s why her symphony is the dish she makes. And I think that' ; s where I saw her. That' ; s why to this day, I always give her inspiration. I mean, she is my inspiration in everything, but yeah. So that' ; s part of that storytelling of what my dishes are. You know, my upbringing, my roots. Like tripe chicharrones. People are like, " ; Chicharrones. That' ; s a Mexican dish." ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah. And tripe, too. But we use tripe in different ways and whatnot." ; That was my upbringing in San Antonio, being around a lot of Hispanic Mexican culture. The food I' ; ve eaten in San Antonio remind me of that. So I was like, how can I pay tribute to that upbringing and my childhood? This is the dish. This is the storytelling of this dish, is through the loss of identity for a little bit. But became a loss I needed to find my true identity, living here in Dallas. And that' ; s my storytelling through the food I make. Another dish is Moutsayhang. Moutsayhang is a dish that I just randomly came up with. Oh, musubi. You know, like everyone understands musubi. Spam, rice, makes sense. So, I was like how can I make that something that' ; s more relatable to Lao culture and to myself? Like, growing up Asian-American, like we know musubi, Spam, rice. That' ; s how we grew up. You know, Spam was a cheap meat product for immigrants. You know, it' ; s like the so cheap for everything. And it' ; s flavorful. It' ; s like, okay, I grew up eating that. How could I make that my own? And that' ; s part of what Moutsayhang came up. But then the word " ; mutayang" ; means " ; everything." ; So I changed the word. The word for our Moutsayhang before was like " ; Lao musubi." ; One of my childhood friends. Chris, he came in. He brought his mom in, actually. They were actually neighbors of mine in Amarillo, Texas. So he walks in. I saw him. I saw his mom. I like, had kind of like took a second glance because I hadn' ; t seen her in a very long time as well, probably over 15 years. And I saw her, but then also her stature, she looks like my mom, like almost like, " ; Wait." ; And she was wearing, you know, they' ; d dress alike too, and were good friends. So she comes in and I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God. Man, like, I haven' ; t seen you forever." ; Like, " ; Yeah, how you doing?" ; " ; I heard you doing good. I' ; m glad Chris has brought me to your restaurant." ; And then I was just sitting there, you know, she' ; s ordering stuff and she orders the Lao Musubi. She' ; s like, " ; What is this?" ; I was like " ; It' ; s, I guess, like, you know, khao." ; And like, you know, and then I put like an eggplant dipping sauce. Because usually like I said, Lao food, it' ; s finger food. So you dip your sticky rice into your dipping sauce and then you have your protein and you kind of put your protein on top and eat it like that. Instead, I was like, I made a whole musubi a vessel. So you just put it in your hand and eat it. She' ; s like, " ; Oh, like |01:31:58|' ; mutayang' ; meaning " ; everything." ; So I kind of twist a word on musubi. And so I call it " ; moutsayhang" ; and he' ; s like, " ; Oh." ; I was like, it clicked in my head like, " ; moutsayhang." ; It' ; s everything in one bite. I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God. So I changed the name to " ; moutsayhang" ; after what she told me. It is everything in one bite. I think that was like my mom as well too like being there and having that moment. So I' ; m like, " ; Okay, I feel like she' ; s still around me, helping me, guiding me through this whole restaurant ownership and food culture." ; |01:32:35| Brody And the and the huge success as well. You talked about- before we get to the effects of the pandemic- You talked about initially that, you know, the really great feedback that you got from the restaurant reviewers and critics and so on. And then also you mentioned some negative feedback about it being too progressive or not traditional enough. Where do you come down on that issue? |01:33:02| Sirisavath I mean, for me personally, first, I mean, I took it to heart and to this day, there' ; s some things I take to heart. Because the thing is...I take it to heart because it is a lot of it, it' ; s my mom' ; s recipe, right? A lot of it is my grandparents' ; , grandma' ; s recipes. Well, my aunt' ; s recipe. It' ; s been passed down the lineage. For me it' ; s like, this is our identity. This is who we are. And then not just that, our identity is who we are to this day. We are Asian-American. You know, we grew up Asian-American throughout our life and to this day. So why can' ; t we adapt to our environment like our parents did and have something that we can say is our own? And so I think what it is, is we are also locked into our own heads, saying that " ; Identity is what I eat at home. This true Lao food. What I eat at home is true Lao food." ; It' ; s not because it' ; s an adaptation of what Lao food is because it' ; s a product of your parents and environment to them, adapting to the ingredients around them. That' ; s what true... And you know, we have identity crisis. But the thing is, that' ; s the authenticity is within the person making that dish. If they feel like this is authentic to them, authentic to their palate, it should be authentic to you. Regardless if your palate is different from them. Every person here has a different palate. Salty, sweet, sour, savory, you know, funky, whoever. But I think the essence of what traditional cuisine is, as long as it touches your soul. If it brings you to a moment in your life, especially your childhood, then that dish is authentic. I had a lot, I have to this day, still a lot of customers that eat the food at Darkoo' ; s now Chicken Shack. Not. Not formerly Khao. I don' ; t take the essence away of what Lao food is. I change it a little bit differently. Like I said, it' ; s evolved. It' ; s the evolution of who I am of Asian-American, Lao- American, Texan to where I can put my heart and soul into a dish and have it represent who I am. Not the person next to me, because the person next to me can be different from who I am. So this is my own individuality. So a gentleman comes in, he orders the Lao Gai, Lao cucumbers, sticky rice. And I heard from one of our servers like, " ; This reminds me so much of my mom' ; s cooking. I haven' ; t had my mom' ; s cooking in a while, and I miss that. I don' ; t know what it is. It' ; s not traditional. It' ; s not what my mom makes but makes me feel at home" ; . And that' ; s the true authenticity of a cuisine, not just a cuisine, but any kind of art form that we do. You know, you have to be authentic to yourself, authentic to your culture to represent your identity. A lot of people try to fake it to make it. And that' ; s where " ; lost in translation" ; is because a lot of people try to mimic this or mimic that. I' ; m not trying to mimic anything. I' ; m just trying to utilize the recipe that was given to me and put myself into that recipe. So where people of my culture, my generation can understand that, you know what, we can evolve, we can progress in a good way, a good manner to where we don' ; t lose our own identity, because I think that' ; s part of it, too. Identity crisis where like for myself, I lost my own identity for a moment in time. But what brought me back was food. Genuinely, it was food. To this day, nothing else, probably. But the one thing that brought me back was food and my mom. And the love that she created in those dishes. That was it. That was. That' ; s. That' ; s the secret. There' ; s no other Asian secret. That' ; s the secret. |01:37:24| Brody As far as you mentioned, you know, your mom was cooking Chinese American food. And, you know, even though she wasn' ; t Thai herself, she had a Thai restaurant. And you mentioned when we were talking about that, you know, that she kind of thought as long as you learn how to do it and you have respect for it...How do you feel about, in terms of other chefs learning about Lao food and Lao flavors and the profile and incorporating it into their own, you know, putting their own spin on that, what are your feelings around that? |01:38:01| Sirisavath You know. At first, I like I had hate for it. I mean, the thing is, you' ; re stealing our identity, first of all. For me, that' ; s the just straight, honest truth because, you know, no one knows our food better than ourselves. Seriously, I mean, we grew up on this stuff, so you try and tell me that you can make Lao food better than me or as good as me? If you can, it' ; s probably because you learned from someone that grew up in Laos or in a Lao family. Or you went to in the country, evolve yourself into ingredients and see the struggles that the immigrants went through. I think that' ; s mainly for me, that' ; s the reason when I do hear other, you know, non-Lao chefs or non-Asian chefs making Laotian cuisine or Asian cuisine, it' ; s always kind of like, " ; Where did you learn that from? Do you pay homage and pay tribute to that culture and not just being a culture vulture and making money off of that?" ; And it' ; s a battle that we have to this day, right? Self-gratifying is always something that I' ; ll give myself and the people that actually are making good, honest food. You know, I congratulate them on that. But for those that are, you know, literally stealing our identity, it shouldn' ; t be that way unless you really immerse yourself in the culture. And not just immerse yourself in the culture, but also represent the culture, being involved in that community as well, too, because anyone can make Pad Thai, right? Anyone can make laab, but it lacks soul, it lacks experience, and lacks culture, it lacks the upbringing of that dish, you know, because we grew up eating that dish, everyone that makes, you know Tikka masala, you know, like to this day, like, you know, that' ; s not your dish. You didn' ; t eat that as a child. You know, we' ; ve eaten these dishes as a child, so we should know what it tastes like or what goes into it. It' ; s not just the ingredients that goes into it, it' ; s the care that goes into it, it' ; s the struggles that go into it, it' ; s the uprooting of a family that goes into it. You know, that' ; s the essence of our dish. That' ; s reason why I kind of get upset on that aspect, because it' ; s not something that you just can take from us. We can share it, you know, and then give us representation on it. As like, " ; Hey, this was inspired from Chef Donny from Khao Noodle Shop. You know, I' ; ve spent time with him. I' ; ve learned what he learned as much as I could. So I' ; m paying tribute to this dish because of him." ; You know, that' ; s fair. But when a Chipotle will open up, you know, Asian Khao wherever and they don' ; t pay homage or tribute and it' ; s making money off our culture. It' ; s not right, you know. |01:40:56| Brody Do you see...Well, first, tell me what happened with the pandemic and what were the effects for you? |01:41:03| Sirisavath Oh, yeah. Here we go. This is the sad side, right? And this is the side that everyone wants to know. I mean Khao was so special, so unique, so filled with life. You know, that was taken away from the pandemic. Hearing me being " ; Best New Chef" ; with Food & ; Wine, that was a " ; pat on the back" ; kind of moment, but also a moment where I have to figure out things and pivot to survive because, you know, usually Food & ; Wine has their Aspen Food & ; Wine big, elaborate showcase. Biggest platform here in the United States for chefs. We weren' ; t able to partake in that, you know, and that' ; s where our level of cooking will be showcased bigger than what we where we are here. So we didn' ; t we didn' ; t have that. So then and of course, you know, Khao Noodle Shop was more a dining experience, education of what the dishes. You know, my servers are educating each and every customer that comes in that door involving, talking, an introduction to what this ingredient is, what' ; s that, how I do this, how I do that, the story behind the dish. You can' ; t do that on takeout. So it was hard. We pivoted to doing take out for Khao Noodle Shop. It' ; s just that noodles...everybody knows noodles does not travel well, doesn' ; t warm up as well as you cook at home. You know, we are not using instant noodles, so it was like it' ; s not that way. Yeah. I mean we' ; ve, we tried everything, and I even was delivering food to my customers. Like it had gotten to a point where, you know, we had to make sure that we' ; re surviving. One of my customers, it was funny... just ordered to go. I didn' ; t know the, I didn' ; t recognize the name and whatnot. And sometimes I don' ; t remember my customers' ; name. I mean, I' ; m very bad with name. So I go ring the doorbell, drop off the food. They' ; re like, " ; Just leave it at the door." ; " ; Okay." ; And it was a Ring camera and they' ; re like, I just hear his wife, " ; Chef?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah." ; Like " ; You' ; re delivering the food?" ; It' ; s like, " ; Yeah, yeah. I mean it' ; s tough. You know, we got to make sure we thrive and survive." ; And then I mean, it wasn' ; t getting anywhere. And then we decided to " ; Hey, we' ; re going to close our dining room because, you know, we can' ; t open our dining room." ; So we were just doing take out. And it was like a moment where like, " ; Hey, we got a little life back" ; because everyone " ; Oh, no, no, no, we got to get Khao because then we won' ; t get Khao anymore." ; We had tickets for days. It was a good moment. And then it' ; s short lived. And then with the transition to Khao Gang, which was a concept that we were creating. With gang... We called it a " ; Khao Gang" ; because we' ; re Khao. And then we' ; re the gang of Khao, but gang means stews, soups. And so that makes sense that our next business venture was more of inducing different dishes than just noodles. So Khao Gang was more comfort food. Where you' ; re eating stews and soups with rice, porridge, so on and so forth. Because, you know, in the pandemic, everyone wanted something that' ; s feeling home. Feeling home, something comforting, right? So that' ; s our comfort food that we created and that was short lived. And then now, you know, we' ; re able to kind of somewhat trickle Khao Noodle Shop back with patio dining so we did that, but still same you know it wasn' ; t received the same as the whole Khao experience. So then we just, you know, we decided to do a kind of " ; Noodles for All" ; kind of thing to at the time because it was just initially friends were getting laid off and, you know, a lot of restaurants were closing. Bars were not able to open up at the time. So we did this fundraising where you can buy a meal for industry, friends or family. So just to kind of help the community out as well. And, and we created a T-shirt for the community as well- Dallas Proper. So Dallas Proper was a, based on Dallas Proper restaurants and bars where we can give back to the community so we can, you know, help out each and every one of us. We did that for a minute, just kind of, you know, bring that love and care back into the food industry in Dallas. It was a struggle. It was hard. I mean, our restaurant' ; s only three tables, right? And then communal tables. And so that' ; s what really hindered us on- as far as that whole dining experience. You can' ; t have a community table with COVID. So we decided to just not do a dining room, only patio. And we just, I mean, we couldn' ; t stop the bleeding. Bleeding was pretty bad. You know, it was kind of like putting a Band-Aid over a knife wound, right? It' ; s not going to stop the bleeding. So we decided just to go ahead and end Khao Noodle Shop. And I mean, me and Tex and my wife kind of went our separate ways. But, you know, we' ; re still thinking about bringing Khao back. But then one of my good friends, Jimmy Niwa, reached out to me like, " ; I know you' ; re struggling, man." ; He' ; s like, " ; What can I help?" ; I was like, " ; Oh. I need to come up with a concept where it' ; s going to be something easy, fast, casual." ; And he was like, " ; What do you want to do?" ; I was like, " ; I don' ; t know, man. Like, everyone does chicken." ; Like, " ; What kind of chicken you talking about here?" ; I' ; m like, " ; Let' ; s do Asian fried chicken." ; So Asian fried chicken happened, Darkoo' ; s happened, we closed Khao. We closed Khao Noodle Shop on the third-year anniversary, which was December 12th. It was our last service, kind of quietly did it. And then we announced that. And then January, we announced it at the beginning year that were Khao Noodle Shop would no longer open and transition to a new concept which was Darkoo' ; s. |01:47:19| Brody Tell me about Darkoo' ; s. |01:47:20| Sirisavath So Darkoo' ; s...Darkoo is, in a way, it really is a fun project first and foremost, but it doesn' ; t sacrifice on the essence of what good food is. And it' ; s not going to mimic Khao Noodle Shop. Everyone....That' ; s part of some of the reviews right now. Just like, " ; Oh, it' ; s not Khao Noodle Shop." ; Like, " ; You don' ; t understand. Here we go again." ; Khao Noodle Shop was very special. It' ; s very unique and very honest and true to what it is about. It' ; s the storytelling. It' ; s the love, the inspiration from a passing mother that passed on her cooking abilities to her son. Darkoo' ; s is just a sort of fun project that I created to showcase my Asian-American roots. This is the most Asian-American thing you can do-fried chicken, especially in Texas and in southern states. Right? Fried chicken is king. So I' ; m like, " ; You know what? Let' ; s do Asian fried chicken. But Lao style and Japanese style and Cambodian style, Vietnamese style." ; Just overall Asian fried chicken to commemorate the love for our Asian community to represent our next chapter in us being Asian-American. This is what we can look like. We can look like the guy next to us, the person down the street from you. We are everybody. Darkoo' ; s is everybody that' ; s Asian-American. And the thing with Darkoo, the name came about because going back and forth, you know, we up came with " ; Chick N Gai." ; The " ; gai" ; means chicken in Lao and Thai. So like " ; chick n Gai." ; So it makes sense a Chick N Gai...okay kind of. But then we find out Guy Fieri as a " ; Chicken Guy!" ; Because " ; Guy" ; Fieri. So then we went back and forth, and Jimmy said, " ; How about Darkoo' ; s?" ; Like, " ; Oh yeah." ; Because that' ; s one of my nicknames from Donnie Darko, the movie. But then I add extra, " ; o" ; so " ; darkoo." ; And everyone knew me as Darkoo. And then we' ; re just " ; Yeah, let' ; s go with it." ; And then my wife is like, " ; Remember? That was one of your pop-up names?" ; Like, " ; Oh, yeah, I forgot." ; So I did a chicken pop up. I forgot about this fried chicken pop up. It was " ; Darkoo' ; s Chicken." ; I' ; m like " ; Oh my God." ; It was full circle. Full circle. Not even I' ; m like, I did not remember this until my wife told me and it just came about. And then Darkoo' ; s Fried Chicken Shack came out and just introducing people to Asian, another version of Asian fried chicken and creating dishes, still paying homage to our culture, of course, using the ingredients that that our ancestors have used before us and just represent us in American fashion. |01:50:19| Brody That' ; s great. Do you feel like that' ; s a uniquely Asian-American niche? |01:50:28| Sirisavath Yeah. You know, it' ; s the essence of the identity crisis, right? And then also coming through a pandemic. It' ; s something like, you know, my mom taught me about perseverance and grit and drive and just continuing to do what I need to do. I think, you know, with...there' ; s some darkness in the transition from Khao to Darkoo' ; s. Part of the name " ; Darkoo' ; s" ; too because it came from a dark place. We all know the pandemic had a hard hit on the food industry. Mainly the food industry, hospitality industry. So this was something like, you know what, we need to create something that will bring us out from the dark as well. So then we can continue to voyage and introducing people to Lao cuisine, Asian cuisine, the immigrant refugee foods that' ; s seen in a lot of restaurants that are created by other nationalities besides their own nationalities. So let' ; s not stop with just Lao food. You know, that' ; s part of reason why I wanted to do this spinoff with Darkoo' ; s, food, where we can have a translation of what Japanese chicken can be, Thai chicken can be, so and so forth. And then and so then it doesn' ; t have to be your basic American style with fusion of Asian spices, kind of, you know, like. So I think that' ; s where the evolvement and evolution of what my chef life is about is where you can do something that' ; s passion driven and have purpose. But also sometimes you have to do these other concepts in order to survive. And I think Darkoo' ; s is what is going to help us survive to get through this big hump in our road, which is the pandemic. And, you know, we' ; re still going through it--now we get the Monkeypox. So maybe there will be a ____ restaurant that comes after monkey pox. Who knows? But I think the whole message and the whole story here is that we learn from our ancestors. Our ancestors came from struggles, came from nothing, came from poverty. Some maybe not came from poverty. Apparently, my mom was kind of privileged, apparently, but then she lost everything. And, you know, leaving a Communist country to uproot her family to live in a land that she has no knowledge of, not knowing the language, not knowing anything. And for her to open her own restaurant, that tells you a lot. And that tells me that I can do as well, if not better than what my mom could have done. So that' ; s reason why my legacy is not...It' ; s on pause as far as, like bringing back Khao and the artisan of what my cuisine is. Same time, Darkoo' ; s is...It' ; s just love and fun? It' ; s just...We need that in this day and age where complexity gets ahold of us and overthinking things, getting stressed out. This is a place where you don' ; t have to think. It' ; s fried chicken. Everyone can enjoy fried chicken, right? Regardless. And if you' ; re vegetarian, we have vegan chicken as well, too. So we don' ; t discriminate here. But, you know, it' ; s just, it' ; s fun. You know, the guy the Lao guy is...He' ; s a fun guy. Yeah. And we just have fun with being silly because I think that' ; s what we need in life for now is having a little moment to be silly, have fun not being so serious and stressed out. And I think that' ; s where I came from my darkness of Khao, stressing through where I have to struggle to survive to make sure my staff members can have a paycheck. And then, you know, a lot of them have gone through to other jobs. I' ; m on a brand-new whole team on Darkoo' ; s. But wherever I teach at Darkoo' ; s, and the next spot is always going to be what I teach at every restaurant. It' ; s about individuality, about art, your art, your artistic self, and also at the end of the day, about yourself, who you are, stay genuine who you are. Your blood is always going to be from a blood from your ancestor no matter what. You know, it' ; s going we bleed the same, you know. And not just our ancestors, but every human being bleeds the same regardless of who we are. You know, I think that' ; s a true identity of us as the human race, is that we are human guys, regardless of we make this dish or that dish, we always have something awesome, always to fall back on is food. We have to eat to survive. We have to eat to have a conversational moments. We have to eat to get the nutrition we need in life to survive. And also, we have to feed people that are hungry, you know, and can' ; t feed for themselves. And that' ; s part of what food is about, too, as well. You know, we try to make sure that anyone that comes up for us to a homeless person to, you know, we also want to feed everybody regardless of who, where they' ; re from. And there' ; s no there' ; s no discrimination on who comes up as well too. You know, I try not to be that guy. Like, just, you know, there is sometimes you have to, you know, we have to run a business. But if someone comes up and needs food, we always...I tell my staff, just make sure we give them something, feed them. You know, they' ; re just as hungry as the next person, even though that they can' ; t pay for food, got to make sure to get food. And I think that' ; s also part of like people telling me like, " ; Your food' ; s too expensive." ; I' ; m like, " ; Oh. Here we go." ; There' ; s always the negative. But I always think there' ; s always negative, but there' ; s more positive out of it from all the negative comments and spills and reviews, you know. Now, my team' ; s like " ; Chef, you you' ; re not reading reviews. No more." ; |01:56:56| Brody Yeah, that' ; s a that' ; s a good segue. You know, what do you as a restaurant owner and a chef think about the advent of social media reviews, things like Yelp and things like that? And how do you contrast them with the professional reviewers? |01:57:18| Sirisavath I think a lot of times, you know, on the reviews, it' ; s, you know, everyone' ; s subject for their own opinion, right? Everyone has their own opinion. But most of those opinions that are...There' ; s a lot of trolls out there, as we know. There are people that try to get you to pull the trigger because there are you know, there are some times where I read comments like, " ; You know what, let me pull back." ; I need to pull back because, you know, because I am a passionate person. I' ; m very passionate about what I do. And my art that I do is...It' ; s my art. You know, for someone to criticize my art, I... that' ; s how I make my living. And I think that' ; s the hardest part of when people give me a negative review. It' ; s like negative reviews doesn' ; t really hurt me. It hurts my business and my employees. You know, that' ; s the way I look at it now. Because if those negative comments become more negative comments, how am I going to survive with my business? How am I going to pay my employees? How am I going to pay for my product and pay my vendors? And I think that' ; s where it' ; s at. It' ; s not about me. You know, you can hurt me all you want now, you know, words... Words doesn' ; t mean nothing to me now. I try not to take it to heart. I try not to. And that' ; s part of reason why like my team is like, " ; No, Chef. You' ; re not reading." ; And then there are some times where I read it, I sit there now, I take a deep breath and you know. And going back to a lot of my mentors and they say, " ; You know, just don' ; t bother with them. You know, they don' ; t know what you go through each and every single day. You know what you have to do to survive and make money and continue to thrive." ; And that' ; s what it has to be like. I need to take care of myself. I don' ; t need to worry about this one person, one reviewer, because the next ten is going to be positive. Next twenty. Next thirty. But that one person is not going to affect me. |01:59:18| Brody Is that mostly in the realm of the social media type reviews or.... |01:59:23| Sirisavath Yeah, mostly. And I understand you have some...And you know, we' ; re going down this road. Right? And so there' ; s always going to be negative social reviewers because a lot of them won' ; t tell you in your face because they know they can type on a keyboard, and you don' ; t have to ever see them ever again. I think those are people they need to experience work in a restaurant for themselves first. First and foremost to how to run a business, and especially a restaurant. Restaurant runs on a thin, thin margin of profit. We don' ; t make profit. We' ; re not making money for ourselves. We' ; re not trying to get rich off of making restaurant. We' ; re trying to showcase our heritage, our culture, our stories. We' ; re not trying to...I would love to make money. Don' ; t get me wrong, everyone loves to make money. But at the same time, like for me, right now, I' ; m just I' ; m just trying to make sure I have...I can make payroll next month. I can make sure I can pay my bills the next month, keep the lights on next month. So negative reviews hurt business far as the upfront and personal reviews, I' ; ve gotten those. Overhearing some comments. One of the last comments from my server and I was outside actually as well too talking to her friend. The worst critics are your own critics, your own, your own kind. And that' ; s where it' ; s the hardest because this is where we go back on authenticity. Right? My own kind will come in and thrash me and tear me apart. Saying, " ; This is not Lao food. This is whitewashed American food. American style. You' ; re catering to white palates." ; I' ; m like, " ; You know what? I' ; m not." ; If you taste the food, that food is tasteful. It may be plated differently. It may be not your mom' ; s cooking. It' ; s not. You can' ; t say it' ; s not Lao food or Asian food or whatever. Just because you' ; re so narrow-minded and locked into your own mind, saying that " ; This is only what Lao food should be." ; It' ; s like, " ; No. Lao food can be bigger than what it is." ; That' ; s what I tell my own kind. It' ; s like, " ; We need to stop bickering and pushing ourselves in this whole circle. We need to branch out of the circle and be better and bigger than what we are now." ; That' ; s how a lot of cultures progress forward, not backward. And that' ; s where it started with- with food. Same thing with movements. You know, every movement starts with food. And if we can' ; t appreciate our own food from a fellow chef or fellow Lao, Indian, Thai, Cambodian, Vietnamese person, we are oppressing ourselves. You know, that' ; s where it happens. It happens within ourselves. So stop doing that. And his comment was, " ; No, I' ; m not paying no more for this food. Let' ; s leave." ; And his wife was like, " ; No. I want to order more. The food' ; s good." ; And the kids like, " ; I' ; m hungry, Daddy." ; And later on, you know, I heard. Kind of, you know, my server overheard him, and she came and told me because they kind of felt like there was something going on and then they left. Probably two hours later, my phone goes off. Google Review. One star. From my own kind. One of my last customers of Khao Noodle Shop. So that' ; s a lasting impression. You know, like a customer, they came about. And then readers read that as like, " ; You know what? He' ; s a Lao person, giving a Lao restaurant a one-star review, so we can' ; t trust that restaurant." ; So that' ; s where it hurts us the most from our own kind. It does. I' ; m like, I tell you, that' ; s the whole gist of it. Any restaurant that we go to we always ask, " ; Who' ; s eating at that restaurant? Is there Indian person eating at that Indian restaurant? Or is there a Chinese person eating at that Chinese restaurant?" ; Because you want to know if it' ; s good enough for their own kind. If it' ; s good enough for their own kind, then guess what? It' ; s good enough for us? So that' ; s the same thing goes for reviews. If our own kinds are giving us negative reviews. How' ; s that' ; s going to look for other ethnic that wants to eat our food? They' ; re like, " ; Well, if his own kind is not appreciating his food, then that' ; s not something that we need to eat." ; Y. |02:03:50| Brody Yeah, that has a big impact for sure. You mentioned in one of the articles that I read that, you know, that you saw that some of your, that your dishes were like elevating Lao food. Right? Like, is that...What does that mean to you? Like in light of all of these, tricky, you know, tricky things, hard to please everybody. |02:04:12| Sirisavath I mean yes and no. I have you know...It' ; s that meme of like, it' ; s in between. I get it. I don' ; t like it. I like it. It' ; s not quite elevated. Right? For me, it' ; s more of like I go back to it. You know, it' ; s my own artisan. It' ; s my own individuality in a piece that I created for the masses. I create this dish because I felt like it needs a voice for ourself. Because every home cook cooks the same dish. Everything that mimics home cooked meals is made in every other home. I' ; m not going to take a mom' ; s cooking and take that recipe from her. That' ; s the reason, other reason why I didn' ; t take my mom' ; s recipes. All my recipes from my mom was all through memory. All my family member was like, " ; Why do you not take Mom' ; s recipe book? Why? Her recipes are to die for. You know, if you make Mom' ; s recipe, you know, the food' ; s gonna be amazing." ; Guess what? That' ; s Mom' ; s recipe. She created those recipe on her own from the inspiration she had from her grandmother and her mom. Let her die with that. I told my family about this and same thing for me. That' ; s the reason why for me making Lao food, this is my own recipe that was inspired from my mom' ; s, my grandma, my aunts, uncles, my whole family. It' ; s where I create my own identity and create my own recipe. This is what my dish is. It' ; s not elevated, it' ; s my own interpretation of what Lao food can be or become or to become. It' ; s an evolution of our environment. You know, what we adapt to is the dish that we create a Khao or at Darkoo' ; s or wherever restaurant I do. Because anything that I create, as long as I pay homage to my culture, pay tribute to my ancestors, is that' ; s all I need. That' ; s the dish I create. It' ; s not because I elevated Lao cuisine. I didn' ; t elevate it. I just created my own in my own culinary space of my own culture. Like everyone in our culture...have their own identity. So, you know, one person can sing better than the next person. One person can do art better than next person. So on and so forth. It' ; s not a battle. It' ; s not a competition. I' ; m not trying to compete with my own kind. And I always my own kind also compete for themselves. And for me it' ; s more about supporting each other. Grabbing a hold of our community and supporting each other regardless of who we are and what we' ; re making. And I' ; ve, back in the past, I was that person to where, like, " ; Well, I can do that better. I can do this better." ; I was that person. But I was very naive and young. But then once I created my own dishes, created my own restaurant, and now I understand the heart and soul, the grit, the grind, the work that you have to make a successful business. I understand now it' ; s like I commend anyone that makes a home cooked meal to the masses. It' ; s hard too. And that' ; s why I' ; m telling people, " ; You think my dishes are expensive? Then you should be paying your mom because your mom spent that much time making that dish for you. Hours upon hours. Days upon days. Sometimes if she' ; s carrying, fermenting, why are you not paying your mom? Why are you not paying homage to your mom or tribute to your mom? And you' ; re here complaining that you' ; re paying $12 for my dish? Really?" ; And also, why can' ; t you make yourself and you say you can make it better myself. Open a restaurant. Then talk to me." ; And then you' ; re like, " ; You know what? I' ; m sorry, man. I feel you." ; Because I' ; m going back to restaurant. Restaurants are marginal. I' ; m making profit. We are slim to none to make profit. You know, our food costs have inflated so much to past years from the pandemic. We' ; re making dollars -three, four or five dollars from a dish versus we can make from. And that' ; s why like I am not against fine dining, but when a fine dining experience make elevated Asian food and paying you know, $60, $30, $100. And they' ; re just using cheap product or product that' ; s expensive to get I' ; m like, " ; I get it. I get it." ; But the thing is, there' ; s also that soulness that you' ; re losing from that dish. So that' ; s for me when I create fine dining dishes, when people call it that. I never sacrifice the soul that goes in a dish. It may be plated pretty, using high quality ingredients, but it never lacks soul. That' ; s my cooking, my way of fine dining. It needs to have soul. Needs to have purpose and soul to where you eat that and it brings a warmth inside your heart and stomach to like, " ; I feel great. You know, after that meal. I don' ; t feel hungry. I mean, I don' ; t feel hungry." ; Because there' ; s small bites, but...And a lot of people say that to me, about Khao Noodle Shop. It was like small portions, small bites. It' ; s like, " ; What are you feeding, kids?" ; No one. That' ; s all my comments. Like, " ; Are these kids' ; size?" ; Like, we grow in America. We' ; re adapted to American way of eating, which is overeating. And that' ; s what my teaching as well too where you go to Southeast Asia, you see the plates are tiny. And at home, we eat tiny dishes. You know, we don' ; t eat one big dish. We eat like multiple small dishes, and then we have rice. I' ; m like, " ; Guys, it' ; s nothing different from what we eat at home or in from our motherland." ; It' ; s because we' ; re so used to the American way of eating, which is overindulging on food. And that' ; s part of why my food is so different than most Asian food, because there' ; s a lot of Thai restaurants, Chinese restaurants now. It' ; s serving big portions because they had to adapt to American way, which is bang for your buck, you know, and my mom had to do that, and I knew that. For me was taking it back. You know, this is a full circle, taking it back to where we what we eat at home from Lao or Thailand. Small portions, eat enough to satisfy your hunger, but also eat to enjoy what you' ; re eating. |02:11:02| Brody That sounds great. What a lot of the people that I' ; m talking to are, you know, " ; mom and pop" ; you know, owners of restaurants that are characterized as " ; mom and pop" ; restaurants. Do you see, you know, either Khao Noodle or Darkoo as " ; mom and pop" ; or how do you what category? Where do you where do you fit in? |02:11:25| Sirisavath I mean, a lot of people...This is this is the misconception on Khao. Because, you know, Khao is so glamorous, I guess people say now and so well-received and, you know, of a restaurant, a home, homemade cook can never receive. But for me personally, we are a " ; mom and pop" ; shop because we don' ; t have any investors. All the money we put in is ourselves. That' ; s what people are going, " ; I mean, you guys probably have money in the bank and investors." ; I' ; m like, " ; No." ; There' ; s no investors. The person that put money into Khao Noodle Shop was me, my wife, and Tex. Our three partners. We put all our money into this restaurant. We have no outside influence. No outside silent investors, so on and so forth. We' ; re a " ; mom and pop" ; driven restaurant. We own this restaurant. Our name' ; s on the lease. You know, it' ; s this is our mom pop restaurant. The back end is run the same way like a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant. It' ; s just presentation and everything it seems like you know we have a backer is backing this restaurant making this amazing food but no. So to say, even Darkoo' ; s. Jimmy Niwa is my business partner. It' ; s his money and my money into Darkoo' ; s. Is no outside investors. So we still run like " ; mom and pop" ; shop. The people that work for us we treat them like family. You like we call them you like tribe members of Khao. You know Khao tribe members were part of the family. You know, we treat everyone like a family member. You' ; re in a sticky situation. We get you out, you' ; re sick. You need help? Need, you know, whatever bills? Where we help each and everybody out. Don' ; t tell me your mom...And that' ; s like the true essence of " ; mom and pop" ; restaurants, right? Who' ; s washing dishes? The owner' ; s washing dishes. Who' ; s cleaning the restroom? The owner' ; s cleaning the restroom. I' ; m cleaning the restroom. I' ; m cleaning dishes. I' ; m closing. I' ; m opening up. You know, I' ; m taking out of trash. That' ; s the true essence of a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant. And people to this day would argue me with that like, " ; It' ; s not a ' ; mom and pop' ; restaurant." ; Like, " ; Yeah, you can say that. You can say whatever you want to say, but we are a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant. We' ; re funded by ourselves. We struggle like a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant, you know, with nickel and diming everything because everything' ; s inflation. You know, I have my nephew helping me out once a weekend in summer break. It' ; s a " ; mom and pop" ; establishment, a family establishment like exactly what I had with my mom' ; s restaurant. It' ; s just that not as much family members was working at my restaurant. But yeah, but the family member our industry family members. None of my workers are our family of mine, but they are my industry family, you know, our inner circle family where we take care of each other no matter what. |02:14:31| Brody That' ; s really nice. You mentioned a couple of mentors earlier, too. Can you talk a little bit about who those mentors are? |02:14:41| Sirisavath So the first mentor is, of course, Chef Seng. She' ; s like I said, she' ; s...she reminds my mom. That' ; s part of reason I wanted to first. So she started creating her Lao food almost identical as my mom' ; s. She took over a Thai restaurant. Bangkok. Bangkok? Yes, Bangkok. So it was a Thai restaurant that she wanted to take over and then slowly trickling Lao food. And then because, you know, people only received Thai food, not Lao food. What is Lao food? And I think the same situation. I think her son was telling her like, " ; Why you don' ; t cook food, Mom?" ; And then she started cooking Lao food at that restaurant. And then she was running that restaurant for about five to ten years. And then she decided to open a full-blown Lao restaurant in DC in the heart of the capital. I' ; m like, " ; What? Who thinks like this, right? This is craziness." ; Because no one knows Lao food. No one' ; s going to go eat that at that restaurant because no one knows what it is. But she had faith in herself and believed in her craft that she can do something and will get well-received from. You know, of course, everything else...It is a slow start at times. She was you know, she was a little older, right. She was in her forties, mid-forties or early forties when she opened her Hanuman and then know competing with these younger chefs, networking at, you know, Michelin star restaurants, you know James Beard nominees. It' ; s like she' ; s competing with these guys and then like she' ; s hitting these awards, you know, semi-finalist back-to-back, years after years. You know, Food & ; Wine. A Michelin Guide. I' ; m like, " ; This lady is like super star." ; And she is. And still to this day, she is. And then me and my brother at the time, when I was doing my pop up. Me and my brother was doing a side project, we were doing beef jerky. So my brother wanted to do beef jerky, you know, to make just some, you know, some income on side, you know, and he' ; s like, " ; You want to go in with me?" ; I' ; m like, " ; I guess, you know?" ; At that time, his wife just came from Lao, and he needed something for her to do. And they were doing it and like the jerky was okay, you know, and then my brother' ; s like, " ; You remember mom' ; s recipe?" ; And like, I mean, you know, " ; It' ; s all up here and in here, so I can mimic it, you know, give me, give me a couple tries on and there' ; s a couple of runs made a jerky." ; It' ; s just like, " ; Man, this is good." ; And my brother' ; s like, " ; Yeah, it' ; s like Mom' ; s." ; Like, yeah, I was like, " ; If you want to do this, we can go forward on this." ; So we started that business, literally just make it from home. And then my brother' ; s like, we need to spread this word. And we, you know, social media was the thing. So we got on social media and ____ So _____ means like, come in like also sound like " ; mother." ; So _____ means like, " ; come, come, come." ; Enjoy some eat or a moment with us to enjoy our culture. So we started it and at the same time, Chef Seng started Lao Food Movement to showcase Lao food and, you know, uplifting our community, introducing people to what Lao food is. And she' ; s the _____ of that movement. And that' ; s part of the reason that why I was like, " ; I need to meet this lady." ; And she actually reached out to us while we were doing _______. It' ; s like, " ; Hey, you know, this is, you know, Chef Seng. We' ; re doing Lao Food Movement and we want to showcase you guys on our page. Take over our page." ; And so we did. We never met in person. And it was just through messaging, social media. And then one day I' ; m like, " ; You know what? Let' ; s go to DC." ; And I told my wife, " ; Let' ; s go to DC. I want to meet Chef Seng." ; And we messaged. She' ; s like, " ; Actually, I' ; m coming here." ; Like, " ; Oh, what? Okay." ; She' ; s like, " ; Yeah, I' ; m coming down. You know, I just want to...I heard there' ; s a lot of Lao restaurants, apparently in Texas." ; Like, " ; Yeah, you know, Texas is the second largest Lao community, you know, outside of Laos." ; So she came and we met, took her around different Lao restaurants and we just got to talking, talking. And at the time I was doing the pop up, kind of went away from doing the jerky, doing more of the pop ups. So and I just happened to ask her like, you know, guidance and it' ; s like, " ; Yeah." ; I' ; m like, " ; Try the food." ; She' ; s like " ; Your food' ; s pretty amazing. You know, I' ; m not trying to make your head swollen." ; But yeah, I was like, " ; Okay, good. That' ; s over with." ; And so then I was like, " ; I' ; m thinking about owning a restaurant." ; She said, " ; You are?" ; I was like, " ; Okay." ; And we' ; re in the process of building out. And she gave me some guidance of how to run the kitchen, what to look for first hiring and product building. And so then we went to DC as well, met her up in DC, looked at the restaurant like, " ; Oh my gosh. The restaurant' ; s phenomenal." ; Saw how she ran a kitchen, saw how she ran her business, doing more recipe building with her, kind of seeing what she does on her recipe, how I can use the meals like that for my restaurant. And it just went from there. And then, literally, we just connected so much because like I said, I needed a mother figure, and she was. I' ; m like to this day, I mean, she' ; s probably ten years older than I am, but she felt, I feel like she' ; s a mother figure. Because she has that the essence of like how my mom is. Very passionate and wanted to share her culture with everyone and anyone and also giving guidance and my mom' ; s always that person to give guidance. So yeah, that' ; s my main mentor. And then, you know, a friend, a buddy Dien Nguyen, he owns Wabi House. At a time, we did a pop up together and he' ; s just like, " ; Every food is phenomenal too." ; I' ; m like, " ; You need to open a restaurant and whatever you need guidance on to open a restaurant I' ; m there for you." ; And he was down the street so convenient too. So I' ; m like asking him every question impossible like to do like and he' ; s always...And the thing with him, he always put me in my place where like you need to listen to yourself, don' ; t listen to anyone else. Don' ; t compare to yourself or anyone else. Don' ; t let negative feedback get to you. And I' ; m that person like I let negative feedback, get to me all the time and he' ; s like, " ; No, I' ; ve been through this. It' ; s like, you going to go through a lot, and I know you' ; re gonna take it to heart on some things, but you need to literally don' ; t listen to the noise. Seriously and just concentrate, move forward, and go straight forward." ; And so, " ; Okay, cool." ; Then I met Jimmy Niwa, one mentor/friend/business owner now partner. Like he has so many years' ; experience in restaurant, twenty years' ; experience in hotel, corporate teaching, so on and so forth. I' ; m like, " ; That guy, he knows everything." ; And I just happened to connect with him because we have the same PR person and we' ; ve gone through this, you know, same situation of like, no, our business not going...Because you know, Niwa, same thing- communal cooking. You' ; re like you can' ; t do communal cooking in a space like that and especially inside like, " ; Oh my God." ; So we were both going through the same situation. So I looked for him for guidance and we helped each other, you know, uplift ourselves through the pandemic. You know, he' ; s doing a lot better than me, apparently, but I' ; m getting there because, you know, for me personally, I' ; m still young. For us being in this industry, you know, even though my age is older, but I' ; m still new to the industry and still learning a lot. So my mentors is, you know, the group of people I have in my group, in my corner is the people that I need in my life. And also, you know, I have friends that are from my Food & ; Wine group. You know, I feed off of their energy too, I' ; ll just reach out to them, same as the writers. You know, they always reach out to me. Bon Appetit as well. So it' ; s kind of like checking in. " ; Hey, how are you? You good?" ; It' ; s like, " ; Thank you. I appreciate that." ; I think, you know, winning awards, you don' ; t, you know, anticipate like editors calling you or emailing you, checking up on you, making sure you' ; re okay. I' ; m like, " ; Oh damn. Wow. Thank you, guys." ; I thought " ; I win this award and that' ; s it!" ; |02:23:38| Brody Part of a community. |02:23:40| Sirisavath Yeah. And the food community is a community. And the industry is...It' ; s a big family. Because, you know, for me, like, I have not experienced enough. So many chefs have experienced more than I have, so I look for them for guidance as well too. So I mean, at the end of the day, food does bring people together and connects people together from the hardest and darkest time, food does help you find your way. And that' ; s what I' ; m doing with food. Food is helping me find my way again. And that' ; s where we' ; re at right now. |02:24:16| Brody Oh, I' ; m so happy to hear that. And I' ; m really, really honored to have had the chance to talk to you. Thank you so much for sitting for this interview. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask that we might want to include? |02:24:29| Sirisavath I don' ; t know. Maybe after listening to this and we have a round two. |02:24:34| Brody Okay. Thank you again. It' ; s an honor. |02:24:36| Sirisavath Betsy, appreciate you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Donny Sirisavath, August 8, 2022
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, Lao
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2022-08-08
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Betsy Brody
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Aman Singh
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5.4 2022-02-18 Interview with Xay Senephoumy, February 18, 2022 2021 oh002_di_006 01:13:27 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking Lao Grocer, Asian American Xay Senephoumy Betsy Brody m4a oh_audio_dig_senephoumy_xay_20220218.m4a 1:|14(7)|24(12)|36(2)|50(5)|76(1)|93(8)|145(6)|157(6)|169(4)|180(7)|209(1)|237(1)|253(7)|266(7)|281(11)|290(7)|304(8)|314(9)|327(11)|344(9)|353(6)|366(7)|380(8)|411(13)|424(9)|452(4)|467(4)|477(14)|489(15)|502(1)|538(7)|551(4)|562(7)|572(9)|584(3)|598(2)|616(15)|629(7)|651(2)|666(4)|676(12)|685(11)|711(10)|723(3)|756(4)|764(5)|774(2)|787(8)|797(6)|810(12)|820(8)|828(6)|841(14)|849(14)|859(2)|876(13)|907(2)|928(4)|936(14) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/162895 Aviary audio Asian American grocers;Asian Americans;Cooking, American;Cooking, Lao;Texas--History 35 Moving to the United States from Laos Colorado;Houston;Laos;Nebraska;Texas 235 Arriving in Dallas in 2000/ Opening Nalinh Market Asian grocery;business;chewing tobacco;community;Dallas;family run restaurant;grocer store;hub;laab;Lao;Lao food;Laotian;Laotian community;Laotian food;larb;Nalinh Market;papaya salad;sticky rice;Taco Bell;vegetables 32.81330398611661, -96.9237610554398 17 631 Lao community in Dallas culture;diverse;diversity;Lao;Lao New Year;Lao Temple;Laos;Laotion community;New Year;Rockwall Temple;Saginaw Temple 893 Beginning to serve food at Nalinh Market advertising;Asian grocery;business;customers;food;grocery store;house party;hub;Irving;kitchen;landlord;Lao;Lao food;Laos;Laotian community;license;permit;racism;social media;sourcing;street food;Thai;vegetables;veterans;word of mouth;Yelp 2058 Opening Saap Saap and the impact of COVID business;COVID;curbside;Lao;Laotian food;marketing;Nalinh Market;pandemic;pivot;Saap Saap;shutdown;takeout;training 2606 Reflections on the concept of "authenticity" and ethnic food authentic;authenticity;ethnic food;Hunan beef;orange chicken;palate;Taco Bell;upscale;western palate 2888 Food as a tool to educate and connect/ Nalinh Market as a community hub bridge;community;connect;connection;culture;curiousity;educate;education;food;hub;Lao community;Lao culture;Laos;respect;word of mouth 3415 Future of Lao food in Dallas authentic;authenticity;Bon Appetit;Dallas;diverse;diversity;educate;education;immigrant;Lao;Laos;Laotian food;Laotian restaurants;neighborhood;palate;Restaurant City of the Year;Saap Saap;Thai food 3886 Senephoumy's mother's background cooking;food;Lao;Laos;Laotian;refugee;refugee camp rel transcript |00:00:04| BRODY This is Betsy Brody. Today is February 18, 2022. I am interviewing for the first Mr. Xay Senephoumy. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the project end "Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." All right, Xay, thank you so much for meeting me and sitting for this interview. Let's just start out real quickly with where and when were you born? |00:00:39| SENEPHOUMY I was born 3rd of February 1979 capital city of Laos at the trail end of the, during the trail end of the Southeast Asian conflict in Vientiane, Laos. |00:00:59| BRODY What brought you to Texas? |00:01:01| SENEPHOUMY What brought me to Texas? That's a long story. In short, I came to America. My parents came to America when I was about a year and a half, less than two years old. I think we landed in Houston, stayed in Houston for two or three years or whatnot, bounced around between Grand Island, Nebraska and the Greeley, Colorado area, maybe for the next couple of years. By the I was five or kindergarten, something like that ended up going to New Britain, Connecticut, where I was raised. Until I think fifth grade. I moved out to a podunk town called Grand Island, Nebraska, graduated high school there had to get out of there as soon as possible. We moved out to the closest Metro- Denver- and stayed there for about two years and ended up here in in the Dallas area in about the year 2000. And I'd been here pretty much since then. Have moved a couple of places while I was here, but I always ended up back here. |00:02:25| BRODY What was your family doing that you were moving to all these places? |00:02:28| SENEPHOUMY Um, you could kind of compare them to migrant workers. They just went to, you know, they weren't formally educated in the U.S. So they just went wherever the work was. And that's how the Laotian community was at the . If one family hears about one job somewhere, they... They would ask if there's other positions available for the other 20 people they know and we would just follow. We're like migrating herd. Any kind of work, really factory work. I remember my mom doing. She was working for an electronic or electrical coil wire manufacturing company in Connecticut. She was doing the assembly line for that. And then after that, most of the Asian communities at the ended up going to places like Kansas and Nebraska to work the slaughterhouses- slaughter cows. |00:03:34| BRODY Right. So you mentioned your mom. How large was the family that you were, your immediate family? |00:03:40| SENEPHOUMY My immediate family was pretty small, consisted of mom, my older sister and I, and every once in a while, dad would that would pop up in and out of the picture. Yeah. So three or four of us consistently. |00:03:55| BRODY OK. So you, you all ended up in Dallas around 2000. What was going on then? What did you do then? |00:04:02| SENEPHOUMY 2000. What I did, I was, was trying to find myself. I was young. Two years in a college. I left college because I wanted to work and hang out. I wasn't sure who I was. So my ah, my parents, my mom and stepdad bought a little- they purchased a little grocery store down here, a little convenience store that was owned by another Laotian family. And I wasn't really doing much in Denver, so they asked me if I wanted to come and help with the family business and I came down. |00:04:39| BRODY So they bought the grocery store. And so it was all- it was- what was it called? Oh, do you remember? |00:04:46| SENEPHOUMY I don't remember the name of it. |00:04:49| BRODY But they were already serving the... |00:04:51| SENEPHOUMY No, definitely not. |00:04:52| BRODY OK. |00:04:52| SENEPHOUMY Serving food? |00:04:53| BRODY No, serving the Laotian community? Or was there a Laotian community? |00:04:56| SENEPHOUMY Yes, there's Dallas. At the that my parents moved here, where Dallas was probably, probably still is the biggest Laotian community in America. |00:05:07| BRODY Oh, really? Yeah. Why do you think that is? |00:05:11| SENEPHOUMY Business opportunities, cost of living? And I think because we're jungle people, you know, we can take the heat. I can't, but they can. |00:05:25| BRODY That's funny. So, OK, so the grocery store, they bought it. Your mom and stepdad. And...Tell me about what that was like when they first started. |00:05:34| SENEPHOUMY Oh, when they first started, it was just a little like bodega , little grocery store- sold veggies and imported goods that that were hard to find in the bigger Vietnamese super, super grocery stores. |00:05:51| BRODY What kind of things? |00:05:55| SENEPHOUMY Maybe some clothing, some special like wicker imports that we would use to- like kitchen utensils, things to cook with and whatnot. And it's funny. One of the big things that you can't find at other stores that the older ladies, they, they chew this like chewing tobacco or that of thing. And we sold that where most places wouldn't. So at the in Irving, there was a there was a older Laotian community and we were the place to serve the older generations. |00:06:40| BRODY What is that? Chewing tobacco called? |00:06:43| SENEPHOUMY In our language and you can look it up...Yeah, we call it "chian maak" which literally translates to chewing, "chewing plants" |00:06:55| BRODY Chewing plants. |00:06:56| SENEPHOUMY But it's it... |00:07:00| BRODY It was a big seller. |00:07:01| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, it's...I'm trying not to laugh because unless you've seen it before, you'd understand, well, why, why I'm giggling. 80 year old ladies chewing tobacco. Their mouths are fuller than any cowboy you've seen around here. And they don't have a spitting cup, you know, they're just right there. Big old...like what looks like a half a gallon coming out of their mouths. It's an amazing sight. |00:07:29| BRODY That's a great image. So, had your mom or stepdad ever done anything like that of a business before? |00:07:37| SENEPHOUMY Actually, yes. When, when I was living in Connecticut as a child. One of my aunts owned a grocery store in Danbury, Connecticut. And every weekend we would drive up there- about an hour away from New Britain, where I grew up, and we would help out at her grocery store and I would just hang out there all day. And I guess that's what planted the seed. |00:08:06| BRODY Right? Kind of learned the ropes there. |00:08:07| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. |00:08:08| BRODY And it seemed doable and manageable. |00:08:11| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. You know, we weren't thinking about it at the . At the , we were just helping family members, you know, we had nothing else to do on the weekend, go help family and cook and eat and hang out. |00:08:21| BRODY Right? Tell me about Laotian food. |00:08:23| SENEPHOUMY Oh, Laotian food. And I get asked this all the . What's the difference between Laotian food and Thai food? And if people just ask me outright "Can you tell me about Laotian food?" I say, "Well, it's just like Thai food, but more rustic, very bold flavors, unapologetic, bold flavors." It's definitely not made or masked for, for the, for the gringo palate. And I like, I like to give this analogy to a lot of people. I tell them it's like it's like trying to call Uncle Julio's or Taco Bell "real Mexican food" when you know it's not. |00:09:14| BRODY Right. What are the like sort of signature dishes? |00:09:19| SENEPHOUMY Oh, sticky rice. Of course, sticky rice is a must have in every household. Sticky rice and steamed rice, but mainly compared to, compared to Thai households, we definitely will have sticky rice. Thai households won't. Papaya salad stands out. It's made with this real stinky, anchovy based sauce that's fermented for anywhere between weeks to months. The stinkier, the better. That's, that's just how that dish goes. Some more traditional ones would be like a laab, beef laab. Its minced meat of choice dish, whether it be chicken, pork or beef. Traditionally with Laotians, it's a, it's mostly beef, where the meat is the showcase, and then it's mixed with herbs like onions and just, just mince, and whatever fresh herbs that we would find in our backyard. |00:10:29| BRODY Sounds really good. Oh, so what was Dallas like when you got here? |00:10:35| SENEPHOUMY When I got here, when I got here in 2000, let me rewind. When I got here in 2000, it was like a second home to me because all my all, my extended family members live here- my uncles and cousins and whatnot- and they're in business themselves here. But the whole I was with...I was living in Nebraska as a teenager. We would often periodically come, come down here to visit. So it wasn't a culture shock to me. So I was ready for it and I was used to it. The only thing I was shocked me was, was the summer heat, which I've been here about 20 years worth, and I still can't take it. I was raised in the snow. So this isn't... |00:11:22| BRODY It's a whole different thing. So you mentioned that you knew a lot of, you know, family, extended family, and that the Laotian community here was established by 2000. In terms of sort of diversity. You know, were you with, I mean, coming from Nebraska, coming from Connecticut, what were what were your impressions? |00:11:46| SENEPHOUMY Diversity wise. I was, you know, Nebraska is the majority white working class, Caucasian working class. I would assume at the all the brown people worked at the slaughterhouse with my parents. I was used to the diversity because I would travel here a lot and, you know, I was fortunate to visit another country and go to many states when I was younger, too. But if I were to take an average Nebraskan and bring them to Dallas, the first , which I did... Brought my best friend down to the to the Houston, NASA thing on a family vacation with us, who were about 16 at the . And he, he didn't know what to do. He was scared and shocked. It was, uh, too colorful for him, to say the least, but, you know, for regular people like that, it could be a surprise, but you know, fortunately, not for us. |00:13:01| BRODY Texas was more diverse than... |00:13:03| SENEPHOUMY Oh yeah, definitely. Very, very diverse. Very. |00:13:06| Diverse. |00:13:08| BRODY How about with connecting with the larger Lao community? Were there events or more casual get togethers? |00:13:19| SENEPHOUMY Yes. |00:13:20| BRODY At that . There are, and there still are till this day. One of the big events is Lao New Year's, which happens in April. And what they do, what they do is they do a food celebration. People just come out sing, eat, drink. It's a community gathering and there's about four main temples in the DFW area, and they'll split the weekends. Like they'll do Lao New Year party at one and the other. That way, we're not favoring one part of town or one side of the community or, you know, we show some love at all the all the local temples. And that's a big thing. People come around from all over the country, Lao people, a lot of different Southeast Asian people, even Caucasians. Some of my Latino friends from Atlanta fly in just for that. |00:14:18| BRODY Wow. That's where is it held? At the temples, physically? |00:14:22| SENEPHOUMY The yeah, the big one is the Saginaw Temple. That's the big hoedown right there. That's the one everybody wants to go to. The big Rockwall Temple is pretty nice, too. They do a big thing over there as well. A couple more. I can't recall the name of the other two, but yeah, those are the two big ones. But the one that people travel for is the Saginaw party. |00:14:53| BRODY So tell me about the store. When you, so when, your mom and your stepdad opened it, what was it called? And what was the sort of a typical day for them? Who were their customers then |00:15:06| SENEPHOUMY Basically just the local Irving Lao community was their everyday customers. We did the same customers every day, every weekend. You know, like I said, we just pretty much catered to the local population, to the Irving population. When they opened it, it was called Nalinh Market, because my mom's brother, Nalinh from Nebraska, she my mom, convinced his family to move here with us as well to start this business. So it was named after him. His name sounded better than everybody else's name. It just rolled off your tongue a little better. |00:15:52| BRODY And it was in Irving where exactly.? |00:15:55| SENEPHOUMY Irving. Irving Boulevard and Loop 12...boulevard and Loop 12. It's... Right next to the to the 7-11, right off the highway. |00:16:08| BRODY So initially, you said they bought it, were they renting the space or they bought it outright? |00:16:14| SENEPHOUMY They, they bought the business and equipment from the previous owner. I don't know how much it was, but. And we're still renting the space out from the landlord to this day. |00:16:27| BRODY Yeah. So sort of the nuts and bolts of starting and continuing a business for such a long . You know- what goes into that? What, what has your family's experience been with sourcing and maintaining the space and so on? |00:16:44| SENEPHOUMY Initially, the nuts and bolts of it were pretty simple. We were just retailing grocery items and fresh veggies. You know, my mom would just basically repackage vegetables. She would go get them from the bigger supermarkets, chop them down in smaller quantities. Made them prettier, you know, and just dressed them up and sold them in smaller, more affordable quantities. And that was pretty much it for the first. I'd say, like 10 years of their business |00:17:17| BRODY And then what happened? |00:17:19| SENEPHOUMY And then what changed our lives was- Different families from different states started moving to Texas. Some old friends of our family. And my mom was known back in the 80s for making food, great food at house parties. And you know, we get her old friends moving here and they're asking, "Hey, are you still a good cook and whatnot? I miss your food from...Remember in 1984, when our kids were little rugrats and you made this special dish at the house? Can you still make it?" Mom's..."You know, yeah, I think I can still make it." So she was unbeknownst to her, she was coerced to make a couple of dishes for sale by her old friends and just snowballed from there. |00:18:17| BRODY Really? So did she make them right there in the store? |00:18:23| SENEPHOUMY Not, not, after the first initial request, she just said, I don't have those items with me right now. Let me get them. When do you want to come back? Couple of days? The weekend? So they came back on the weekend. But those dishes, they loved them and word spread |00:18:41| BRODY The rest is history. |00:18:42| SENEPHOUMY The rest is history. There's a funny detail involved in that too. Where there was no kitchen in Nalinh Market. It was just a little grocery store, a little bodega. And mom was trying to think, "Well, I don't want to cook from the house and bring my friend this food." So she grabs a Bunsen burner and a little frying pan and just cooks that for that individual. And as word of mouth got around, she was using the same Bunsen burner to cook food for the next....who knows how many people, right? Just, you know, and we didn't...We don't even have....We didn't have a food permit. We're not supposed to cook back then, but she's doing it for these people. And then and then she hit it big to the point where she had to upgrade to a double Bunsen burner to keep up with requests. Yeah, and months roll by, and she's still cooking, and the demand increases as the popularity, word of mouth in the in the neighborhoods is spreading, and I just I have a talk with mom. I say, "Mom, you have to put the Bunsen burners away. It's embarrassing. Why don't we? Why don't we build a little kitchen back here?" And, you know, we started with a little makeshift kitchen. And it's still, if you go into Nalinh Market today, it still looks like a little makeshift kitchen because that spot was never meant to be a restaurant. And, you know. And that that's where it all began with a Bunsen burner. |00:20:40| BRODY That's fascinating and a really great story. Do you remember what the original food was that she was cooking? |00:20:48| SENEPHOUMY Laab. Beef laab. Which is a traditional dish, yeah. |00:20:53| BRODY And you mentioned that, you know that the demand started to grow through word of mouth. Was it mostly Lao people who were coming? |00:21:02| SENEPHOUMY Yes, it was definitely Lao people at first. It was definitely Lao people at first. And then when we got to the point where we had to have where we decided to put just two little sit down tables, four chair, sit down tables. I don't know if we were even allowed or permitted by the city yet to, to cook there. But you know, it's what we did until we were told differently. Yeah, so we were, we were mostly serving people we knew- friends or family. And then it would spread out to the local Laotian residents and then as we got more popular and this is when technology kind of changed the game a little bit, Yelp first started coming out and I- they, my parents still don't know this to this day. I created two fake Caucasian accounts. I remember the first one, Mr. Steve Martin, and the next one was like Mr. Sam Sampson, and I created our very first reviews for Nalinh Market, and I said, "I've never had this of food before. Wow, this is great. Southeast Asian food reminds me of Thailand." you know, because Americans are familiar with Thailand. People saw those reviews and then the other ethnicities started coming. |00:22:38| BRODY That's really interesting because, well, first of all that that you created the Yelp accounts and secondly, that the way that you went about doing it. That I mean, were you thinking that this food is really great, but this is how to introduce it to a different... |00:22:58| SENEPHOUMY Not the, not the "really great" part yet because of I was an IT guy at the . I went to school forIT. And I started doing, you know, basic IT work at any place I can. So just the fast forward, I ended up having a 20 year IT career before I opened my first restaurant, Saap Saap. So back at the when I created those fake accounts, I was already in the IT realm. And you know, I heard of Yelp and these review apps and whatnot, and I just said, "Hey, I'm going to give us a review. The world doesn't know about us. The real world does not know about us. Let's, let's get this out to, you know, let's expand it beyond our community." |00:23:45| BRODY Did that happen? |00:23:46| SENEPHOUMY Immediately. |00:23:47| BRODY Yes. Tell me about that. What was the cause and effect there? |00:23:52| SENEPHOUMY Well, we would get our first Caucasian set of customers in. My parents would ask them if they were lost or if there's anything particular they're looking for. And they just said, "Hey, we heard the food is the food is good here. I have some Thai friends, you know? Is it similar to your food?" And we just introduced them to our food and it was all word of mouth at the . And it still is. We don't do any marketing. We didn't spend a dime on marketing then. Just as I told you, the only marketing we had was me and my free fake accounts. And yeah, it just, just, just spread by word of mouth and we started getting other, other people of other ethnicities and... Yeah, yeah, we just saw that the demand was starting to grow, and I convinced, eventually convinced my mom to get legitimate licenses and go to the city and whatnot to where we could actually have a mini full kitchen in that location and convinced her to put out a third and fourth table. |00:25:20| BRODY So when those non-Lao people started coming in, did they know what they were looking for? Did they use your family as a guide to, you know-"What? What is this supposed to taste like? What am I looking for? What's good here?" |00:25:39| SENEPHOUMY Initially, they played it safe for the for the most part because, you know, everybody's eaten Thai food, ordered the things that they're used to, the familiar dishes, Pad Thai and whatnot, egg rolls and whatnot. And then what I did, you know, I'm more talkative than my parents. So when I was working my IT job, I would come and help them out on the weekends. I'd get hungry, free food, right? And I, I would see the same Caucasian customers returning and same Mexican customers returning. I would say, "Hey, I see that you're eating spicier. You should try this dish." And suggest other dishes and whatnot. And that's...That's how we got them to open up their palate a little bit. |00:26:29| BRODY Right? Had many of them even heard of Laos before? |00:26:32| SENEPHOUMY Most of them...No. I'd say like 95 percent of the people didn't. The older generation did. There would be some which I later learned after they become my friends. They were...They were veterans of the war and they were stationed in Thailand, et cetera. And you know, they said this, this reminds them so much of the Thai street food, and they were versed. But for the most part, no, we had to, we had to guide them and ease them into it. |00:27:03| BRODY Did the menu expand rapidly or it sort of stay to a small number of items? |00:27:10| SENEPHOUMY I'd say initially very small because we didn't know what we were getting ourselves into. We weren't prepared for the business side of things, so we were only able to manage what we could handle. And then after we were getting more popular with, with just a general DFW population, there are more requests for certain traditional dishes, which were easy for us to do. We just, I think we just needed, needed that convincing, you know...needed that little push. Customers asked for it and we shall provide. |00:27:58| BRODY That's great. So eventually, you did interact with the city and get the permits, and all of that stuff. Can you tell me more about that? |00:28:09| SENEPHOUMY It was pretty simple. We just. Well. Probably not the best. Initially, they would come in and tell us, "Hey, you can't do this. You don't have permits for it. Where your permits?" "OK, sir. So what? What do we need to do to get to that point?" And they, you know they walked us through it. |00:28:29| BRODY It was pretty cooperative. |00:28:30| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, yeah, it was cooperative. And there was there was no negativity at all. They saw that we, you know, they probably saw us as an asset to the community for the things that we were doing and that they help us out. |00:28:43| BRODY Yeah. Did you experience with that in that period, any kind of racism or any difficulties or challenges that way? |00:28:54| SENEPHOUMY I would say 2007ish, you know, there was really no racism. The markets were good, everybody was making money. I think oil was, you know, the economy was great. Everybody was happy. There was no, no public tension. You know, we get a few idiots here and there, but not nothing that would stand out. Nothing bad. All that racist stuff comes later. |00:29:25| BRODY Yeah, some people who have businesses that are, you know, Asian businesses or other immigrant businesses talk about difficulties, maybe with the immediate neighbors, neighborhood difficulties over signage or things like that. Did you experience any of that? |00:29:44| SENEPHOUMY Not really, because our location in South Irving. It's a minority community, to say the least, you know. So we didn't we didn't really have any problems and our neighbors, like our business neighbors, they...They specialized in their own businesses, so we weren't stepping on anybody's toes or anything like that, and we all got along well. |00:30:12| BRODY Good. That kind of raises the question of competition. At that , was there any other business that was selling Laotian food? |00:30:22| SENEPHOUMY Not really. There were, at the , there might have been one or two, but they were, they were located so far, like in Fort Worth and I think maybe one in Haltom City, to where we, we didn't compete. |00:30:42| BRODY Right. Did you...Were you, not competing, but did you have a relationship? |00:30:47| SENEPHOUMY Oh yeah, it's such a small community. I'd say more, more- more of my mom's knowledge. The older community just knows everybody. They know everybody. The younger people like me, we have no idea whose kids are who and whatnot until we see each other events or parties. |00:31:10| BRODY So that's interesting that the community is so small that, you know, if you have a similar business that you could maybe compare notes or, you know, share information. You mentioned earlier that you were just, you know, early on sort of trying to keep up with the business side of things. What were some of the challenges and factors there? |00:31:34| SENEPHOUMY Well, I would say a lot of it would have been the accounting. I, at the , was the only first person...I wouldn't say first, my sister was kind of starting too. I was the only one in our family with the real American formal education. So my mom and stepdad who were running the business, they were just...They were just running it off of muscle memory, really. They...They didn't have the accounting education to handle business the right way at that . |00:32:11| BRODY And taxes and all of that kind of stuff. |00:32:13| SENEPHOUMY Right. The, you know, even though they didn't understand all the taxes and whatnot, they would just hire a local tax person to handle that for them. |00:32:25| BRODY Great. And the status of the business now? Still, still going? |00:32:28| SENEPHOUMY Now? My sister runs that location. She's considering getting out of it. Prior to COVID, we were, I would say, maybe the top three most popular Lao family restaurants...Maybe, maybe in the country. In the state, for sure. You know? |00:33:04| BRODY Tell me about what your trajectory was after that period of , what did you do after the Nalinh Market and the initial run of that, of that restaurant and turning it into a restaurant. |00:33:20| SENEPHOUMY Um, my goal was just to expand the audience and my family was fortunate that I was, I have am IT background, so I used whatever social media was available at the , and just wanted to reach out to different audiences just to, you know, spread the word a little more. I was still very reluctant to marketing. And I think if I was more educated on that and knew more people to help, I would say, we would have actually been, been in better business than we were. Yeah, we probably would have made an even bigger impact. |00:34:17| BRODY You went on to start your own restaurant as well, right? |00:34:21| SENEPHOUMY Yes, yes. A sidebar and we can talk about this off, off camera, off the mic, but mom and I decided it was to two separate ways from Nalinh Market, so we had a good talk. Mom said, "You know, use your education. You didn't go to school for nothing. You've been the IT field for umpteen years, 15 years. You've held whatever government clearances for your jobs and whatnot, you know, you have a decent future doing that." And I said, "Mom, you know, if you stop the community going to be sad." So it made me think and it made me realize that I had to carry on the tradition. And in short, I decided to open up the restaurant. The second restaurant, which was called Saap Saap and Mom and I ran that from 2017, January of 2017, till its closing day, few, couple of months ago, I would say November of 2021. |00:35:35| BRODY So that kind of puts you smack in the middle of COVID and all of, all of that. How did COVID impact both businesses? |00:35:45| SENEPHOUMY COVID didn't really impact the original location that bad, because we've already established a good customer base- about 20 years worth of work of customers- and then the location was ideal too. It's right off the highway, easy to find and whatnot. We've already had a good social media following, so the fan base was there. At Saap Saap, it impacted us tremendously and horribly. So COVID really started for the public in what? January or Februaryish of twenty, right? 2020. OK, so I've already been in business there three years and the trend was that we were very slow in the winters. We're basically dead in the winters. And but that year, right before COVID, my, my doors were open every night. All the seats were full. You couldn't get a seat in my place. We were peak. I had, I had the perfect staff. It took me three years to cultivate a great staff. I had everything we ever needed and my staff and I were even looking at each other going, "Wow, this is this is January, this is February, and people are waiting for seats here. This this is amazing." So we're peaking. We're at our very best. And then....Not even a few weeks later, we, we get hit with the COVID rules, you know? Dine in is chopped down to what, a quarter? 25 percent of the ? I'm a dine in location at Saap Saap, so automatically, you know, 75, 75 percent of my income is affected, is taken away. So I'm...from the very first or second week of the COVID rules and laws, I'm already so, so deep, you know? |00:37:58| BRODY It hit you hard. |00:37:59| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, I'm just trying to trying to fight an uphill battle. |00:38:06| BRODY That's really hard timing because you were hitting your momentum, |00:38:10| SENEPHOUMY Yes. |00:38:10| BRODY ...hitting your stride. |00:38:11| SENEPHOUMY Yes. And on top of that too, we emotionally it, it just it. It took its toll on us, but we had an exit plan for Mom because we built up our staff and, in that business and especially with our family's food, it's so hard to get the cooks to make the food the way we do it, because there are no formal recipes. It's, it's our family's recipes, it's the school was my mom's kitchen, you know, and I've, I've been clinging in on her butt since I was a little kid and that's how I learned to cook. It's very hard to teach anybody how to make food the way we make it, and we were able to do it with our new staff or current staff at the . So we had an exit plan for Mom. We said, we had a team meeting, "Hey, can we do this without Mom?" Yes. "Do you know your job?" Everybody knows their job. Fine. Mom's going to retire in April and we'll give her some retired benefits. But she's out of here. She's, getting old, let her go, see the world and whatnot. And once COVID hit, those plans were scrapped. Ended up losing my, my staff, my whole staff and Mom and I were left to run the business by ourselves. Just the two of us. |00:39:42| BRODY Wow. So did you...A lot of restaurants pivoted to curbside and takeout. Is that sort of the strategy? |00:39:51| SENEPHOUMY Um, we had to...we had to adapt to it. We didn't have a choice. Our- what services did we use- the carry out services like what Uber Eats and whatnot? Our orders went up, but, we that just didn't help because our customer base were a dine in base and most of our customer base loved the intimacy of what we provided. |00:40:29| BRODY Yeah. Can you tell me about, you know, just it's a sad ending, but to go back to the happier s when you were hitting your stride, what was your vision for Saap Saap? What was what of place was it? What was, what did you hope your customers would feel when they were there? |00:40:46| SENEPHOUMY I, um, I didn't have any plans for how I hoped the customer would feel. My, my initial vision was just to use our food as a tool to educate the community and you could say the rest of the world, expose them to, to our culture and to my people. And what better way would there be to do that than to break bread with somebody, right? Feed people. They're happy. You get talking. You become buddies and the word spreads around, you know? Just to educate the community about our culture and our -through, through our food, really. And business wise, I wanted to open multiple locations like maybe three or four locations. We had another location in the works at the right before COVID. We're planning that out. We're strategists, we were strategizing for about, you know, two, two or three additional locations. And I think that'll work, that would have worked out well. The, the vibe of our patrons just came naturally. You know, we, we grew up in Podunk, Nebraska, where everybody knows everybody and we're just comfortable talking to our neighbors. You don't really get that in most restaurants that you eat at nowadays. And you know, the customers at the table don't get to speak with the executive chef. Call them by first name. Say hi to them every they eat. It was like that at our place. And that's what the customers liked and wanted. And that's also why the, the takeout option during COVID didn't work, because that wasn't our customer base. You know, they wanted to be there for, for the whole atmosphere, for the whole experience as well. Not- they didn't just want to grab their food and go. |00:42:55| BRODY Right. Well, it kind of ties together what you were saying earlier that- about training chefs that, you know, that it's hard to teach people exactly the ins and outs of your mom's cooking or your family's cooking, and it sounds like the restaurant anyway was something like being in your in your home. |00:43:19| SENEPHOUMY Yes, yes. |00:43:19| BRODY Right? With you and with your, you know, with your mom. So that makes sense. That kind of leads pretty naturally into another set of questions that deal more generally with when we're talking about food from immigrant communities. Did you do things with the recipes, with the food to appeal to certain groups? |00:43:55| SENEPHOUMY Well, for our Southeast Asian community, you know, we are we offered we offered party catering and whatnot, and we felt honored because, you know, a bunch of-we were, we were commissioned for, for quite a few weddings. You know, it's a major important, major event in those people's lives. And for us to provide a service and to be a part of that is just something special. So we were well known for that service as well. We didn't really go out of our way or out of our path to, to, to formulate a special game plan to try to reach out to certain groups, you know, we just kept doing what we were doing. |00:44:51| BRODY And then as far as...A lot of s people talk about, you know, quote unquote ethnic food as being, you know, authentic. Did you feel like you...What are your feelings around that concept of "authenticity"? |00:45:11| SENEPHOUMY When it comes to ethnic food, I myself, before I even opened up the restaurant, before we even had our first couple of tables at Nalinh Market, I would purposely go seek out places that I knew served food that didn't look like a restaurant because I knew that's where the real food was at. You know, the less fancier places. Most likely that's where you can get the best food, the most authentic food. I, I live in, I live in the, in, in a dichotomy where our food is known to be authentic and expect it to be authentic, but at the same , to survive in business, you know that you have to...You can't follow that 100 percent if you want the dollars to come in, you know? You have to, you have to adjust your foods to the western palate and make, make-And you guys can't see this, but I'm rolling my eyes when I'm thinking about it, you know, to make Taco Bell food. You know, you just have to to stay in business. But... |00:46:37| BRODY So for your menu, what did that look like? What did that look like across the board...Changing things for the western palate? Or did it mean to include certain items on the menu that were good sellers? |00:46:50| SENEPHOUMY I wouldn't do it, and that might have been part of my demise. I was stubborn about it. We've even had internal meetings about this to where, "Hey, you know, you have customers coming in wanting orange chicken and stuff like that." That's just not us. And I, you know, I would put my foot down and yeah, I could've made a ton of money making orange chicken and whatever Hunan beef and whatever else. But that's just that's not who we are. That's not the food we make. We've we become- we've grown as a business in the last 15 years because of what we do, because we make authentic food from home, from when my mom was 10, 11 years old, cooking for her 11 siblings and her parents in the jungles of Laos. You know, and we just wanted to provide those same foods and we didn't want to stray from it, no matter what cost. I mean, that's what we became known for. So there's, you know, I don't want to stray from the authenticity of what we were doing. |00:48:08| BRODY Earlier you mentioned that you wanted to use food as a tool to educate people, customers about your culture and about, you know, about the food. What are the main messages that you would have, that you did and you do want to convey to the public through your menu? |00:48:28| SENEPHOUMY Um, curiosity leads to exploration. Exploration leads to education, you know, and the education is what just brings people together. You know, the more you know about your neighbor and, and your potential friends and just better off. It's just, it's just going to be better off for everybody, for the world, for society. And, you know, it's just a simple formula. That's all I ever wanted to do with my food. |00:49:03| BRODY To connect with people. |00:49:04| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes. |00:49:07| BRODY Sort of thinking about your customers, both at the Nalinh Market and at Saap Saap, did it end up being a pretty multicultural, multiethnic crowd that you were able to reach? |00:49:22| SENEPHOUMY Yes, very. Yeah, we've reached just about everybody on the spectrum. I, you know, Nalinh Market, they...It's just well known. Everybody knows them, so word of mouth gets friends of friends from this ethnicity to the next ethnicity coming in. I didn't spend a lot of there, because I was busy at Saap Saap, but what I experienced at Saap Saap was I had Russian people flying in from Chicago just to eat our food. We'd have visitors from Peru who told us that they're in America because they just want to explore the best of what America has to offer. You know, and I'm humbled they're eating at our restaurant. Just- wow speechless, right? And, you know, you know, people from Peru, people from Russia. Thai people who are visiting California, flying into California, flying into Texas here to eat our food and Canadians. It's humbling. It's fantastic. It's a, it's a neat experience. |00:50:47| BRODY Yeah, a lot of the interviews that I'm doing, I'm finding that the restaurants have served as a bridge to other communities and other s of people, and that the food, as you said, has been a really good, you know, impetus for people connecting with each other. Do you have any stories that you want to share about examples of something like that happening? |00:51:14| SENEPHOUMY Oh. Many, many, many that I can't pick out specifically. Like, for example, there's one guy I can think of. He's been to Thailand a couple of s and probably when he was a kid, maybe a teenager. He hasn't eaten that food in forever and after we opened up Saap Saap, he would eat there pretty much on a weekly, weekly basis, somes a couple of s a week. It made him travel more to Southeast Asia. Every like six months or so he would, he and his lady would go to a new country in Southeast Asia and come back, tell me all about it. He gets a tattoo written in Lao or Thai. On his arm, and yeah, yeah, it's amazing how, you know, food can just open those doors and touch people in those ways. |00:52:31| BRODY That's a great story. Another pattern that people have noticed is of, and this may be more true of Nalinh Market maybe, of immigrant businesses becoming sort of a hub for the, their own community. Did you find that to be the case? You know, I know you mentioned that the grandmas and their chewing tobacco, but are other examples of ways in which the market itself was a hub. Other examples, you know, sharing information, fliers, community events? |00:53:12| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Whenever there would be a community event like, for example, the big old Lao New Year parties, people would drop off fliers, concert fliers, long lost friends who haven't seen each other in a while, they'll stop by and ask us to pass messages, messages or phone numbers to them |00:53:39| BRODY Wait, really? Like, people would come to shop and say, "Oh, if you see so and so...". |00:53:42| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes, exactly. And I'm sorry (drinks water) |00:53:49| BRODY So people would come to shop and say to your mom, "Have you seen so-and-so in a while?" |00:53:56| SENEPHOUMY Because, you know, my mom's older? And, she... the people, the people of her generation from the 80s, as I mentioned earlier, they just know, know everybody who came from Laos through the same situations that she did. Long lost friends, long lost family members who are seeking the other person would drop their phone number and ask my mom, "Hey, if you see this person, can you give it, can you give it to them?" |00:54:36| BRODY Obviously, before the internet and... |00:54:39| SENEPHOUMY Even during the internet because the older people of our culture, you know, they, they don't know how to navigate the technology that's provided today. So, so our location still to this day would be used as a hub or a meeting point or, and we've seen this a lot throughout the years, throughout the last two decades where people would be out of work, you know, and they just need a place to hang out to feel like home. And they would do that at Nalinh Market. And somes we would we would hire them as an extra hand put them to work. You know, we need our walls, walls painted or whatnot or, or even just outside jobs. If we knew other Asian business owners or not even Asian business owners or customers of other ethnicities. If people were hiring, you know, we could refer them to them. |00:55:42| BRODY It's great. So sort of a neighborhood hub and in your, yeah, community hub as well. |00:55:46| SENEPHOUMY Definitely. And there would be s where people will just hang out there the whole day for eight to ten hours hoping to see whoever they're there to meet up with or just, just for a sense of belonging to a sense of belonging somes. |00:56:03| BRODY That's nice. Did people come on the weekends to kind of shop for the week or was it kind of a steady stream? |00:56:12| SENEPHOUMY Oh, you'd get more on the weekends. During the week, we would pretty much get a lunch crowd and then just a casual grocery shopper. But before we, before we started cooking food at Nalinh Market, that was like the place to be on the weekend. Like everybody just had to be there for no reason just to see each other's faces and whatnot. |00:56:43| BRODY Yeah, you'd run into people, maybe even more so than the Temple or... |00:56:47| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. Yeah, exactly. |00:56:49| BRODY So it's really interesting. So the current landscape, post-COVID, you know, Dallas has been named, you know, "2019 Restaurant City of the Year" by Bon Appetit magazine and one of the things that the magazine cited in choosing Dallas was the large number of immigrant neighborhoods and restaurants, that diversity and in choices. Going forward, where do you think... What do you think, in Dallas, the future of Lao food is? |00:57:29| SENEPHOUMY Well, I think going forward, it's going to, the future of Lao food should expand exponentially. I mean, if we go backwards a little bit, you'll see that we may be about 15 years ago, we might have had three Lao restaurants and now there's probably, I'm guessing, 20 plus owned, family owned Lao restaurants. So the demand is there and the education of the Lao food is definitely there and reaching out to other communities and in other geographical locations in DFW. So I think that demand will keep keep growing. And I think... I don't know if it'll ever become commonplace, but you'll see more of it. |00:58:30| BRODY Well, with the popularity of Thai food and sort of the similarities. |00:58:34| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes. And. The sophistication of our food is surprisingly growing. Especially in other, other ethnic groups that are non-Laotian. You have American raised individuals who, who know the distinction now between Lao and Thai food, whereas 10 years ago we didn't have that. You know, and they're even, they're pickier nowadays, they're more precise about what kind of Lao food they want. And yeah, you would have never guessed this 10, 15 years ago. It would have blew your mind if, if you ran into this kind of aficionado from, from non Laotian people. |00:59:27| BRODY Yeah, I've read that, you know, initially people who were trying to serve Lao food would need to sort of label it "Thai and Lao" or something just to give people a reference point. It sounds like what you're saying is that's no longer the case. |00:59:44| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, definitely. It's, it's still the case to a certain extent. Like even, for example, my restaurant Saap Saap, I got flak from the Laotian community from, from a lot. Hey. So, so I had a sign that said "Saap Saap Lao and Thai Cuisine." "Why are you adding the word 'Thai' in your restaurant ?" Well, not everybody knows what and where Laos is, so I have to do that to attract the people who are familiar with what the Thai culture and Thai food. It's just numbers. They have a bigger population than we do. They've been here longer than us. People know about them more. So we have to do that. But like I said, the flak I was getting, you know, "Hey, if you're really trying to stay pure, if you're really trying to stay authentic and whatnot," you know, and I got a lot of trouble or flak for this or a lot of negativity for this. And my response is, "Hey, we do this because we have to." People who are familiar with the Thai culture. And plus it's not that I'm not trying to be a purist. In order to get to that level, we have to find a happy medium, you know? Yeah, we just,, we have to start somewhere. |01:01:19| BRODY Yeah, I mean, it sounds, when we put what you're saying right now together with what you know, the issues of- that we talked about earlier that you could sell tons of orange beef if you know, if that's what you were comfortable selling. That, you know, that walking that fine line between wanting to be authentic to the mission, you know, the vision that you have and also be a thriving business? You know how everyone's line is somewhere. |01:01:49| SENEPHOUMY But then again, to the people who are giving me flak, I respond the same way to most of them "Hey, you go open your own Lao restaurant and you could call it and do whatever you want with it." |01:02:02| BRODY Oh, so looking back at both, you know, both the businesses and the experiences that you have and continue to have, what are some lessons or reflections on sort of the whole experience as well as Asian food in Dallas in particular? |01:02:23| SENEPHOUMY Well, this ties in to another question you asked me earlier what is the difference between Lao and Thai food? And I tried to explain to you technically about the ingredients, but there's a there's an ingredient that I didn't mention-the people. My mother and I, you know, we were fortunate to spend a lot of our in in Nebraska, in the Midwest being raised Midwest. You, you pick up on the work ethics, ethic that's just there. It's inherent with that, with that growing up in that part of the country. And, you know, we bring that with us and we bring our, our, just the way we communicate and feel for our neighbors and that, that is a major ingredient that people don't understand in this business, you know, (inaudible). That's such just what you need. And we need more of that, not just in the Lao food restaurants, but just generally speaking. And I think that's where a lot of our popularity came from. You know, we provided that that sense of community and then just, just having an environment where people felt good to be a part of, to be around, and it, it understandably gets easily lost when you're trying to run a business, you know, it's all you're thinking about is numbers and money. But one of my philosophies have always been, you know, don't worry about the money, just take care of the important things first. And the money will come. If you're good at what you do and you like what you do, the money will come. |01:04:34| BRODY A good spirit to have. Well, those are some really great stories and really interesting reflections. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about that you'd like to share? |01:04:46| SENEPHOUMY Probably too much that we don't have for. A lot of...Since, since this is supposed to be archived for a for a cultural influence and whatnot, a lot of the questions that were missing would probably pertain to my mother. And, you know, she's a big part of this story. The work ethic that that lady is, her work ethic is untouchable. And it's just crazy. People say the same thing about her work ethic all the , and it's just a history where she came from during the war and being in the refugee camps before, before coming to America. And this is a lot of other Laotian families going through the same thing. But, the character that, that the character that was instilled in her, you know, just the history in the past of coming from Laos, the way she did and the poverty and the way she had to raise her kids here in a foreign land, not speaking the language and without the education. It just it lit a fire in her and pushed her to, you know, work with whatever God given tools that you have and just make the best of it. Yeah, so I mean, if, if, if you have some questions leading towards that, I'll be happy to answer. But regarding my mother, but you know, if you're open to conversation with her or details, that's an available option as well. I'm just afraid things might get lost in translation. |01:06:57| BRODY Yeah. Tell me about her journey over here. How old was she? And she already had children at the point that she... |01:07:03| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, she had three kids to take care of at the . I'm guessing she was. Let's see, we came about '80, '81. 63. What's that... Born in '61, '81, 20 years. |01:07:24| BRODY Oh, yeah, yeah. |01:07:26| SENEPHOUMY Twenty years old. You know, in a refugee camp... |01:07:33| BRODY Where was the refugee camp? |01:07:35| SENEPHOUMY Somewhere in Thailand. On the border of Laos and Thailand? Yeah. |01:07:39| BRODY So was she separated from her parents at that point? |01:07:43| SENEPHOUMY Yes. Yes. So her parents stayed in Laos. She, when she was in the refugee camp, her- some of the family got split up as well. I think I think we got separated from my older brother. He ended up going to Australia because I think at the there's about like six or eight options where you could get deported to right or imported to go to and... My dad's side of the family ended up going to Australia. My mom and our were immediate family came here to America. I think my older brother got lost in the mix somehow, and he ended up staying with my dad's side of the family in Australia. You know, tough life. He had to struggle with that growing up without his real family over there. And...So currently, they're there, the Australia side of the family there... They also own four restaurants in the Sydney area. |01:09:02| BRODY Oh, really? |01:09:02| SENEPHOUMY Yeah. |01:09:03| BRODY All Laotian? |01:09:05| SENEPHOUMY Yes. But they're more, they're more of a Thai restaurant because they have to be. They're in Sydney. So, you know, they have to, they have to cater to that crowd. But I've seen their menu and they do authentic Lao foods as well. Yeah, but they're very busy over there and... |01:09:30| BRODY So your brother is involved with those restaurants? |01:09:32| SENEPHOUMY Oh, no, no, he isn't. But my dad's side of the family is my dad's brothers and sisters are in Sydney. |01:09:43| BRODY So your mom sounds like a pretty remarkable woman, so |01:09:48| SENEPHOUMY Yeah, yeah. And I've been told, you know, I don't. I don't realize it myself until I step back a little bit, you know? See things from a third person perspective, but it's like mostly everybody I run into, says, "Xay. She's the hardest working I've ever seen." From teenagers to adults, you know senior adults in their 80s. They just man, you just got to be around her for at least an hour or two. It's, it's, you know, you have people like that anymore nowadays. |01:10:29| BRODY She sounds amazing. How long was she in the refugee camp there in Thailand? |01:10:35| SENEPHOUMY I'm not sure,. |01:10:35| BRODY Roughly. |01:10:36| SENEPHOUMY I'm not sure exactly. Maybe anywhere between six months to a year. |01:10:40| BRODY And then the came for it, and then she came directly to Houston. In your understanding? |01:10:46| SENEPHOUMY Yes. But before that, if we were rewind a little. I later learned in life that when she was in Laos, prior to going to the refugee camp, she was actually working as a nurse under the UN, under the UN umbrella. So she was patching up soldiers and civilians and whatnot, and she couldn't have been any more than what, 17 through 20 at the . And I think one of the one of the major factors that got her into that position was a sponsor family here in the Houston area. There was a, there was a doctor and his wife, and I think she was in the medical field as well. But they, there was like some educational child sponsorship program back then. You know, they're probably like the UNICEF commercials that you see on TV nowadays. My mom happened to fortunately be the recipient of one of those programs. And, you know, she's always kept in touch with that family and I to this day have never met him. I wish I could have. He's already passed. You know, I know, I think I think she felt like she really owed it to their family to keep pushing. You know, it's probably what is a part of that fire, you know. |01:12:27| BRODY So, they sponsored her to come here? |01:12:31| SENEPHOUMY I, I'm assuming they probably through, that program, helped her become a nurse. And then since she was working under the U.N. umbrella, made it easier for us to get to America through the refugee camps. |01:12:55| BRODY That's an incredible story and thank you so much for sharing all of that. Well, I really appreciate your today and look forward to learning more about your family's experiences. Thank you so much. |01:13:09| SENEPHOUMY It was my pleasure. I hope I got whatever information, you know. I just hope I answered most of your questions as best as I was able to. |01:13:22| BRODY It was wonderful. Thank you very much. Thank you. |01:13:25| SENEPHOUMY The pleasure's mine. Thank you.
OHMS Object
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Interview with Aman Singh, September 22, 2022
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2021oh002_di_019
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Indian
Ice cream industry
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2022-09-22
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audio
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56e093f3d37bed820191e6c714b12969
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Betsy Brody
Interviewee
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Vu Ly
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5.4 Interview with Vu Ly, August 1, 2022 2021oh002_di_018 00:50:32 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Facebook Vu Ly Betsy Brody mp3 oh-dig-audio_Vu_Ly_20220801.mp3 1:|14(4)|32(3)|48(15)|65(7)|83(2)|101(4)|118(1)|131(2)|144(7)|160(1)|174(3)|189(13)|205(8)|223(5)|232(11)|247(1)|257(7)|274(1)|287(13)|307(3)|326(5)|344(8)|363(13)|382(9)|401(11)|412(12)|432(9)|448(14)|463(2)|476(5)|487(9)|499(15)|515(6)|528(11)|547(9)|562(10)|573(10)|591(5)|606(12)|625(3)|654(3)|674(4)|685(16)|705(12)|721(10)|734(8)|759(7)|770(10)|786(13)|803(8) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/174337 Aviary audio 0 Introduction 30 Moving to Dallas from Colorado 101 Working in the hospitality industry and opening a coffee shop/speakeasy coffee ; speakeasy 32.74826751821143, -97.36062171164528 17 257 Origin story and growth of Asian Grub in DFDub Facebook group Asian food ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian hate ; Asian restaurants ; COVID ; Facebook ; food festival ; pandemic ; racism ; restaurants ; social media ; xenophobia 678 Coming up with the name Asian Grub in DFDub Asian Grub in DFDub ; COVID ; Facebook ; pandemic ; social media 879 Xenophobia and Anti-Asian rhetoric anti-Asian ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian hate ; Facebook ; racism ; social media ; violence ; xenophobia 1089 Division of labor among Asian Grub in DFDub Facebook group Asian Grub in DFDub ; Facebook ; social media 1420 Possibilities of monetization of Asian Grub in DFDub/Attention from the media Asian Grub in DFDub ; food festival ; food media ; KERA ; media ; social media 1580 Dallas Asian food scene today Asian community ; Asian food ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; boba ; Cambodian ; cooking ; culture ; food ; fried chicken ; Lao ; mom and pop ; restaurants ; sushi ; Thai ; Vietnamesel 1874 Thoughts about " ; authenticity" ; and Asian food Asian flavors ; Asian restaurant ; authentic ; authenticity ; cooking ; culture ; food ; mom and pop ; restaurant 2001 Role of social media and food media blog ; bloggers ; culture ; Dallas ; Facebook ; food ; food media ; food photographers ; influencers ; photography ; social media 2148 Food and culture authentic ; authenticity ; culture ; food 2229 Asain Grub in DFDub Food Festivals Asian food ; Bishop Arts ; culture ; Dallas ; entertainment ; food ; food festival 2518 Maintaining the spirit of Asian Grub in DFDub Asian Grub in DFDub 2662 Contrasting Asian Grub in DFDub with Yelp and traditional food media Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian restaurant ; food media ; restaurant reviews ; restaurants ; social media ; Yelp 2889 Reflections about the experience of creating Asian Grub in DFDub Asian community ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian hate ; community ; COVID ; Dallas ; Facebook ; food ; inflation ; racism ; restaurant ; xenophobia “Digging In” explores how the growth of the Asian community coincided with the rise of “foodie culture” in Dallas, leading to unique opportunities for economic and social engagement between and among different Asian immigrant groups as well as with the larger Dallas community. |00:00:07| BRODY This is Betsy Brody. Today is August 1, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Vu Ly. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and as part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you so much for joining me. |00:00:33| LY Thank you for having me. |00:00:34| BRODY Let' ; s start out. Just tell me where and when were you born? |00:00:38| LY I was actually born in Thornton, Colorado, but I' ; ve moved back and forth from here and Denver area like two or three times. And then the final move was freshman year, after my freshman year in high school because my dad got a job transfer. And then that was the final move. That was like almost 25 plus years ago. I think so. But my mom, all her sisters and mother lives around in Dallas and all. So as I' ; ve been back and forth, just those two. |00:01:09| BRODY Oh, the family that was in Dallas. What brought them to Dallas then? |00:01:14| LY Honestly, I never asked my parents that because it' ; s weird with Asian culture, it' ; s hard to talk about things. I mean, I can ask, but I don' ; t know and I never ask. I just know majority of because my mom has seven sisters. So and they all decided since grandma and grandpa decided to come to Dallas and then they all resided here. I got- and then some moved to like Oklahoma and whatnot, but we' ; re still in the surrounding states. So then I' ; ve been here ever since. |00:01:45| BRODY Big family Yeah. So what do you do? |00:01:47| LY Me? I work for a wine and liquor distributor called Republic National Distributing Company, and I' ; m on the wine division, so I handle accounts like 7-Eleven, QuikTrip, Walgreens, CVS, Valero' ; s. I just write orders and I try to pick some new items that we need to sell. And then I also have a coffee shop in Fort Worth called " ; Ampersand." ; It' ; s coffee and tea. It' ; s really great. And one of them is a speakeasy, it' ; s secret club in the back. So people can drink coffee during the day and drink liquor at night if they want. |00:02:18| BRODY Tell me about the secret aspect of the speakeasy. |00:02:20| LY You walk in. It' ; s a small coffee shop in the front and then there' ; s just the big wall. Looks like a wall. And you just push it, and you walk in and it' ; s just a big bar and there' ; s like a DJ booth and tables and everywhere. So and people, we actually open it now for people during the day to study. So it' ; s, it' ; s, it goes both ways. So we' ; re a club and coffee shop. |00:02:44| BRODY That' ; s really interesting. Is there a secret word? |00:02:46| LY No, we don' ; t. We just have it closed. And then when the, when people come, they just we have someone open the door for them. |00:02:52| BRODY So that' ; s really fun. So you' ; re in your real job and in there you' ; re owning the coffee shop in the food industry. Is that something that you' ; d always planned on? |00:03:05| LY No, it' ; s not, actually. When I was in college studying, it' ; s going to be a, I was going into anesthesiology. And then I went into dentistry. But then throughout college I was also throwing events and whatnot. So I was like, I don' ; t want to study anymore. And then I became like more entrepreneurial. So then I just took everything from there and just started like helping like friends with businesses, and I opened my own businesses and whatnot. So the end game for sure is to just open more businesses and whatnot. Just be your own boss. |00:03:42| BRODY So right. Were you drawn in particular to the hospitality sector? |00:03:47| LY Yeah. And then just having your own idea and just be able to put it out there for others and see how people respond to it or whatnot. And then support goes a long way too. So I' ; ve got a lot of my friends out there and family that would support. They come out of support no matter what. So I like that part. Just being your own person, doing your own thing without having to answer to anybody. |00:04:13| BRODY Fewer gatekeepers. |00:04:14| LY Yeah. |00:04:15| BRODY So we' ; re talking today because you are one of the administrators for a large Facebook group called Asian Grub in DFDub. Can you tell me a little bit about the origin story of that Facebook group? |00:04:29| LY Yeah. So basically, it started when COVID started and then all the xenophobia towards Southeast Asians and whatnot and it was hurting businesses throughout the country. Then we noticed it in Texas and whatnot. So it was when like when friends used to get it, when we used to get on FaceTime happy hour since we couldn' ; t see each other in person. So then we just started talking. It' ; s myself and four other women that I went to college with. So that' ; s Kimberly, Elaine, Nancy, and Tran. So we' ; re just talking like how businesses were being affected because a couple of them were also business owners as well. They have boba shops and whatnot. So like we had to figure out a way how to help other restaurants and ourselves and whatnot. And then they' ; re like, why don' ; t...One of them suggested, " ; Let' ; s just start a Facebook group and invite our friends. And then, you know, it' ; s it' ; ll be a one platform where everyone can come and promote their businesses and then tell other people about foods they find." ; So that' ; s really all it stemmed from. And we just started adding friends and then they added their friends and then just came built in. And now we have it' ; s been almost three years, so we have over 50,000 members now. |00:05:48| BRODY That' ; s incredible. |00:05:49| LY Yeah. |00:05:49| BRODY It' ; s so I mean, you were just talking, and we remember, you know, all of us at that point early in the pandemic, just, you know, there was no sense of how long it was going to go on. Like what were you kind of envisioning in terms of the scope and the scale? |00:06:08| LY Honestly, we really didn' ; t think it would become this big. It was just something for us to have for other people to help, you know, other Southeast Asian businesses and whatnot. So it' ; s gotten bigger than we thought. And hopefully we can make it even bigger because we obviously did our first food festival in May, which was really good. So we would like to continue doing more food festivals, which helps highlight more restaurants and it can bring in more revenue for them too and whatnot. |00:06:41| BRODY So that' ; s amazing. So just overall, what were the initial goals and mission of the page? |00:06:50| LY It was bringing awareness to others that don' ; t know about certain restaurants that it' ; s okay to go support these businesses. Despite what' ; s happening in the news and you' ; re hearing all the xenophobia, you can go to an Asian restaurant, you' ; re not going to catch COVID and whatnot. So I mean, you catch COVID anywhere. So just because it' ; s an Asian place, it' ; s not going to, you' ; re not going to catch it. But it' ; s also I thought I knew all the restaurants. And then because of this page, there' ; s all these " ; hole in the wall" ; ones that I' ; ve never heard of. Plus, it helps the older generation that' ; s not, doesn' ; t know social media. So this helps people know about their stuff because they don' ; t know how to promote it themselves. So that' ; s helped a lot of places just because of that. |00:07:39| BRODY So people were just posting about restaurants that they went to, that they liked and then it grew fast, right? So how did you manage that growth? How...were there challenges to that? |00:07:56| LY Oh, tons of challenges. So at first, we had it where if you post something, it automatically goes through. And then we kept seeing repeated posts because we like to keep the group organized and also positive. So we don' ; t want people to treat it like Yelp where like if they had a bad experience, they want to post about it. I mean, there' ; s many more they can do that on their own page or other platforms for that. We don' ; t want it for this group. So because basically your bad experience can be someone else' ; s good experience. And I was I' ; ve learned, and I always tell people that just because you like something doesn' ; t mean I have to like it. It' ; s good to me, but it doesn' ; t have to be good to you. But like people are like, " ; Oh, I did not like it. Blahblahblah." ; Why did you post this? Food makes people crazy, but it' ; s subjective. You know, you like what you like. So I mean, we just oh...I like. And then now we turn on...We have to approve posts now of course, but then we, I' ; ll get messages on the side like why? Because they want, we wanted this for just Southeast Asian but then they' ; re trying to other people wanted to promote like Indian and Pakistani places which I get it, because says Asian Grub, but because of the xenophobia on it, we focus solely on Southeast Asian and then they have their own groups too, which has a big following too. So I just try to tell them, I mean, some understand and then some doesn' ; t. It is what it is, but we like to keep it as just all positive and organized in that group. |00:09:29| BRODY So yes, some of the press about the page, you know, highlights the organization aspect of it, particularly the map. Can you tell me more about the map aspect? |00:09:40| LY Oh, yeah. The maps are just another tool for members to use. Just go to the Google Maps and we categorized everything. So from Thai food, Korean, and it has all the places. So you can just search it and then it' ; ll show you on a map where to go, info, address, and everything. It' ; s just another organized...Because the group is really kind of hard to use, like when you' ; re searching for something because, so say you' ; re searching " ; Thai food." ; Every word, every post has the word " ; Thai" ; in it, it' ; s going to pull up. It' ; s hard, like even just random. Like, even if it' ; s just the first two letters, like " ; the" ; in " ; Thai," ; it' ; s going to pull up. It' ; s just like, I don' ; t know why they haven' ; t, like, made that easier, but I do get it because there are a lot of repeated posts. Because then...So we do decline a lot of posts and we tag them in past posts just so it won' ; t be flooded with repeated, but at times where we can' ; t tag them, which we' ; ll let it go through. But that map is basically just for everyone to see. Get to find the place they want easier instead of using the search. |00:10:43| BRODY Right. Do you think had you known how big it was going to get, that Facebook would have been the platform that was ideal? |00:10:53| LY I honestly, yes, because everyone uses Facebook. Because we all started using Facebook when we were in college, and it was mainly for college students. Then they open up to everybody. Like even my uncles and aunts in Vietnam have Facebook now too. So, to me, it' ; s Facebook is the perfect and biggest platform for everybody to use because I think majority of people have Facebook. |00:11:18| BRODY Tell me about the conversation with your fellow founders about the name. How did you come up with the name? |00:11:27| LY They. So one of the ladies thought of it. They' ; re just coming up with names just during while we' ; re on FaceTime because Houston also has one called " ; Chow Down in Chinatown." ; So one is something that, you know, flows off the tongue. And then sounds like it goes together. So honestly, it' ; s one of them. I think it was Tran she just " ; Asian Grub" ; and then I think Elaine was like " ; Well, we' ; re in DFW, DFDub." ; So it just, it just came together organically. |00:12:01| BRODY So that' ; s really fun. It' ; s a great name. So it grew really fast. And what were the reactions initially from the public and from the restaurant owners. |00:12:14| LY From just members themselves? I always I hear a lot " ; I' ; ll go to your page a lot just to see what' ; s new or if I' ; m hungry." ; Or people were just on the page just scrolling, even if they' ; re not hungry. So for future times they want to go out and eat and they just want to see. And then from restaurants, I' ; ve got messages that we' ; ve helped them a lot, like from closing and whatnot, and they' ; ll offer us stuff. But I' ; m like, " ; You don' ; t have to offer anything as long as you' ; re staying open, your good." ; And I' ; m really glad it' ; s helped a lot of restaurants from closing. So yeah. |00:12:53| BRODY Do you have any specific stories that you were able to share? |00:12:58| LY There is a there' ; s this restaurant called Sprouts in Mansfield. He messaged one of us in thanking us about the group and whatnot. And he said when COVID was happening, he was on the brink of closing. But because of that group, he was able to stay open. He' ; s all, " ; Y' ; all can eat here for free, for life." ; I was like, " ; Don' ; t worry about it. You can give that someone else if you want," ; but, yeah. It' ; s, they' ; re all kind of like that where they' ; ve been on the brink of closing, or they thought about that. And then just one post just helps save the restaurant. |00:13:34| BRODY So because what is the reaction? So somebody posts and then I mean, what have you heard? |00:13:39| LY So this is what I try to tell restaurant owners when they post their own stuff, not to share from their own page. So a post, if a post is more personal, like organically from you and it' ; s not just shared, people react to it more and like they' ; ll go to more. Obviously, pictures help, but you got to put a caption or something and people will be drawn to it, especially if you' ; re mentioning that you need help or whatever, the response is very good. Like there' ; s one. Someone posted a TikTok of a sushi restaurant in downtown Dallas and they were about to close too. So they posted in the group. I think they got like over 500 likes and a bunch of comments. And then a few days later I heard it was like line out the door or hard to get a table. So it' ; s just the response has been very good for the post that has been made. |00:14:39| BRODY That' ; s really nice. The time period when you were starting the group and I suppose the reason you were having those conversations at all was because of the, as you said, the xenophobia. Can you talk a little bit more about sort of setting the scene? Like what were the things that people were saying? What were you, what were you reacting to that was out there in the world? |00:15:03| LY Yeah. It' ; s just because I have a lot of friends that are restaurant owners, too. So I know they told me what they' ; ve gone through. Just, it' ; s more like not what people say, but what they' ; re not doing. So obviously, just the xenophobia. They don' ; t want to support these Asian restaurants. I mean, what they hear in the news, they' ; re going to believe, and it doesn' ; t help that like the former president was like saying " ; China virus" ; and all that or whatnot. And then so and then a lot of political leaders, they don' ; t...They hear it, but they don' ; t listen, and they don' ; t sit down to think about how to help. So they' ; re like, they' ; ll say something that would make them look good, but they don' ; t there' ; s no action towards it. I don' ; t even think that bill, that the Asian hate crime bill, did anything. It' ; s just the bill they made. So but I mean the xenophobia towards Asians. I mean, it' ; s been happening even before COVID. It' ; s just there' ; s more social media now. So it' ; s more everyone can see what' ; s going on. I' ; ve seen so many videos that like way more than I have in my entire life within like, two years. It' ; s crazy. And it' ; s still going on. But they' ; re, like, attacking elderly, you know, women like, just randomly. Just like walking down the street, just punches someone out of nowhere. And then sometimes they get caught, sometimes they don' ; t. So, I mean, in my life, I haven' ; t really dealt with anything like too bad. Like, so I know one time I was at one of my accounts. I was looking at the food, and one of the workers was like, " ; What are you looking for?" ; I was like " ; Something to eat." ; And then she' ; s all, " ; We don' ; t have dog." ; It caught me off guard. So I didn' ; t know how to respond because it caught me off guard. So I just. said no, I' ; m just whatever. But I think if I processed it sooner, I would have said something. But I just. I like I want people to, like, stand up for themselves, too, because, you know, a lot of Asian people are soft spoken. We were taught that way, too, like, so it' ; s hard. But the younger generation, they' ; ll...They' ; re more bold and they' ; ll say something which is good. |00:17:22| BRODY And with social media, you know, and like the Facebook group itself, do you feel like that' ; s a way for people to stand up for themselves? |00:17:31| LY Yeah, it' ; s for, it' ; s a way for their voice to be heard. Because anything put on social media, Internet, someone' ; s going to find it and it could go viral. And all it takes is one reshare and another share not to share. It' ; s easier for us to get our voice out than trying even like doing a protest in downtown. I mean, I don' ; t know how much that really helps. I mean, people will see it, but I don' ; t know. Because I know they' ; ve done like protests in like New York and marches in Cali and whatnot. Here we haven' ; t really done anything. But social media to me is the best way, I think. |00:18:10| BRODY Kind of switching gears for a second from that topic, just nuts and bolts of the organization. It' ; s gotten so big. And, you know, it started with just a small handful of you as administrators or, you know, founders. How do you make it work? |00:18:27| LY So we designate each admin is has their own like job. But, well, that' ; s how it started. But all of them are all moms. I' ; m the only one without, like, kids or anything. So I can I kind of have more free time to look at the group more. And then Kimberly, she has some downtime too when the kids are doing something else. So her and I are monitoring it like 24/7 and the others, they' ; ll... We' ; ll just when we have, like when we have a, like a question, like should we post this or whatnot or what do you think of it? We have a little group chat, so we try to talk about should we do it or whatnot. And if we do, what would happen? Blah blah blah. So that' ; s basically the organization of it right now. |00:19:14| BRODY So it sounds like a lot. So earlier you mentioned you really like to keep the group organized and positive. |00:19:23| LY Yeah. |00:19:24| BRODY So, you know, every group online has to have a set of rules and things like that. What have been the evolution of the rules for this group? |00:19:33| LY So we don' ; t allow...We want people to be respectful to each other within the group too because we can' ; t read every comment on the posts. There' ; s just a lot. So people do report stuff and that' ; s the only time we really see. There' ; s people that do go at each other in the comments. |00:19:49| BRODY Really. Over things like what? |00:19:51| BRODY It' ; s over, like...or just be like someone posted, come here, blah blah and, and someone' ; s going to post or someone' ; s going to comment, " ; This place sucks." ; And then someone else would be like, " ; It might so to you, but blah blah blah." ; And then just people go at it. And then there' ; s like arguments over like dang, what was it? I think it' ; s just the type of food. Like, it' ; s just crazy in the comments, but we' ; ll try to monitor it, remove it, and then we put people like on suspension too. |00:20:30| BRODY Oh wow. |00:20:30| LY And then we kick some people out of the group too. So, and then we also have like 7000 pending because you have to answer all the questions in order to come into the group. So there' ; s a lot of people that don' ; t answer because there' ; s a lot of like fake pages too that try to enter. |00:20:45| BRODY So what are you trying to vet by asking the questions? |00:20:49| LY So like there' ; s three questions. One was, do you live in DFW? How often do you visit if you don' ; t? And then do you own a business? So if those...Answering those questions basically takes away like the bots and the fake pages. So. Plus it makes...If you actually read the rules, if you answer the questions. |00:21:11| BRODY So not a robot. |00:21:12| LY Yeah. |00:21:14| BRODY What have been some of the biggest challenges or surprises of running this group. |00:21:18| LY Challenges is just trying to, like, keep it the...Like, if I let one post in and I don' ; t let another one in. I have to be, I have to try to make it fair with everyone. Because someone' ; s going to be like, " ; Why did you allow this post in? But not this one." ; But there' ; s also like, I can' ; t remember every post that goes through. So sometimes...We don' ; t like to have repeated post, especially if it' ; s an event and there' ; s multiple restaurants doing it. So one restaurant' ; s going to try to promote it. And so we try to like space it out. So we don' ; t want it cluttered. But then I' ; ll get messages on the site like, " ; Why haven' ; t you approve this yet?" ; And then sometimes we' ; ve accidentally approved posts like, like say an Indian restaurant and then someone' ; s gonna be like, " ; Oh, why was mine?" ; This. I was like, " ; I' ; m sorry. It' ; s just so many." ; Like, sometimes I' ; m just approving. I don' ; t... Sometimes I don' ; t even read because there' ; s so much. But there' ; s probably, like, towards the end, like, something like, negative is like, goes from positive and negative. Like, it' ; s like, " ; I really like this, but the service sucked," ; or something like, you know, I mean, I get you need good service, but I don' ; t want to, and we don' ; t want it in this group. So with that kind of like comments and stuff. |00:22:38| BRODY So how many hours do you think you spend a week? |00:22:41| LY Ooh. I would say a week? |00:22:44| BRODY Yeah. |00:22:47| LY Man, it probably feels like a part time job, honestly, because even like during...So for work, I drive through, I go to every account of mine and then when I' ; m like walking into the door, I' ; ll be checking it and approving because we get posts like every I say like almost five, five to ten minutes, everyone' ; s posting. And especially if someone' ; s asking for something. Sometimes I see like three hours later when they' ; re asking about where to go for lunch in this area. But I didn' ; t see it in time. I was too busy with work now and even that late at night before I go to bed, I' ; m checking it. It' ; s a free part time job. |00:23:26| BRODY Right. And it' ; s a service. But that people are expecting some service from you immediately. |00:23:33| LY Exactly. Yeah, because I always get, " ; Why haven' ; t you, I need you to approve this right away." ; |00:23:40| BRODY Have you all ever talked about finding a way to make it more of a real, like, paying job? |00:23:46| LY Yeah, we do want to monetize it. Like at the food festivals for sure. Like this, the first one we did just because it was for AAPI month and then it' ; s just because it was the first one. We didn' ; t charge any admission. We didn' ; t even charge any of the vendors either. So it' ; s all free, everything. So but we had sponsors too that helped us out, which was really great. But yeah, soon for sure, the food festivals. And then we have a website as well and we want to open that up to other cities outside of Texas, so they can use that as a hub to sell. |00:24:25| BRODY Follow the model. |00:24:25| LY Yeah. |00:24:26| BRODY No, that' ; s really interesting and I hope, I wish you well with that. So because you' ; ve learned a lot about the, you know, what works and what doesn' ; t work and what some of the challenges are. What have been some of the surprises that you' ; ve experienced? |00:24:42| LY The amount of attention we got, especially from the media, because we' ; ve had new stations contact us for interviews like, KERA was one. She came to the food festival actually and interviewed us and then Channel 5 News. Texas Today. And it' ; s just basically the exposure. But it' ; s a lot of people outside of Texas that heard of us so people from New York. Cali, they' ; ve joined the group, too. So it' ; s nationwide exposure. That was a big surprise. |00:25:15| BRODY So yeah, that is that' ; s really a far reach and a lot of media attention as well. Why do you think it drew such media attention? |00:25:26| LY It' ; s a good question. I think just is they saw how well the group was helping other restaurants. And then I, I think they cause a lot it helped during a lot of these news stations were reaching out to restaurants too because the xenophobia and whatnot, or just in general small businesses hurting during COVID. So then they would mention our group too. So it' ; s just the mention of a mention and that' ; s how to me that' ; s I think how it got to where it is. |00:25:59| BRODY And it' ; s also a good story of community building. |00:26:02| LY Yeah. |00:26:02| BRODY Right. During a time that was very difficult to form communities. |00:26:06| LY Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. No, it' ; s shocking or not shocking, but it' ; s great to see that so many people are coming to support everybody. Like, so that' ; s one of the greatest things about the group. |00:26:19| BRODY The positivity. So I want to ask you a few questions about the Dallas Asian food scene in general. How would you describe, you know, the Asian food scene in Dallas today? |00:26:32| LY To me, it' ; s gotten better and better each time. It' ; s...I mean, it mainly used to be just like Vietnamese food with sushi and whatnot. But now people are getting more exposed to Thai food, Laos food for sure. That' ; s one of the, that' ; s one of the cuisines that doesn' ; t get a lot of like exposure because not a lot of people know about it. Because I didn' ; t start eating Laos food till, I got to college because I met Lao friends and I was like, " ; That' ; s really good." ; So and then just all different types of cultures like Cambodian food now too. So now we have a whole range of everything. It' ; s still a lot of Vietnamese food, but now we' ; re getting like stuff that people aren' ; t exposed to normally. So it' ; s growing and it it' ; s going to keep growing. Right. |00:27:25| BRODY Yeah. So I was going to ask you, what do you see as the future of Asian food in Dallas? |00:27:30| LY I see. I see there' ; s going to be a...I see a lot of fusion stuff and I just see more Asian food branching out to other cities that don' ; t have a lot of like, let' ; s just say Rockwall or whatever. And just the ones further out, because I' ; ve been seeing businesses open up there, which is really random because there' ; s not that big Asian community, but it' ; s working for them. So as our city expands out more into the smaller cities and whatnot, that' ; s...I see the food growing out that way, too. |00:28:07| BRODY Interesting. Earlier you mentioned the phrase " ; hole in the wall." ; And I know a lot of you know the press about the group talked about its attention to, quote, mom and pop restaurants. So I wanted to ask you about, sort of, within this Dallas Asian food landscape that your group focuses on and that you' ; re part of- what is the range of type of, you know, small business mom and pop to, you know, fine dining high end? |00:28:40| LY Yeah. So for fine dining, there' ; s really not that much fine dining for Asian. There' ; s only maybe a good handful, but everything else is either family, within the family or whatnot. So there' ; s restaurants and like Arlington, they' ; re older than both of us. Like they' ; ve been there forever, which is crazy. So we love the " ; mom and pop" ; ones because to me, the " ; mom and pop" ; ones, they' ; re they really are truly just focused on the food and nothing else because they don' ; t know social media and whatnot and the aesthetics and whatnot. They just make good food. So that' ; s why a lot of people love a " ; hole in the wall," ; " ; mom and pop" ; ones. It' ; s just more authentic and it' ; s good. But like all the other ones, all the friends that open up business, they, it' ; s like a new idea and whatnot. So like, for example, Okaeri Cafe, it' ; s like a little Japanese cafe. Michelle' ; s the owner, so she' ; s- her and her partner- they visited Japan and they just basically brought the and then they put in a new their own concept, their own spin on and whatnot. So and then there' ; s Ricky' ; s Hot Chicken. He' ; s been working on his- you had it. He' ; s been working on his recipe for like I think about two years. And he let friends try it and whatnot. And then he finally opened up. He has, he opened up a second location in Arlington. So it' ; s like a lot of people just putting their own spin on things that they think. |00:30:08| BRODY So what about the contrast between sort of the " ; mom and pop" ; and the types of places you' ; re describing and then the Asian based franchises? Places, you know, like Boba places or things like that that are franchises? |00:30:25| LY So the Boba places, there' ; s basically almost, almost a boba place on every corner, almost. It' ; s not like Houston. Houston- it' ; s like so many like two feet from each other. But yeah, the majority of all the places there are franchise and then there' ; s a few that are their own. But there all, all the franchises are different people too. They' ; re not all one person. But and then the just trying to think of like how to...To me, like I said, just, it' ; s not like the franchises aren' ; t better, but obviously, like I said the " ; mom and pops," ; they' ; re just more focused on the food. That' ; s the only way I can really answer that. The compare and contrast. |00:31:15| BRODY Yeah. I mean, it' ; s an issue that comes up in almost every conversation that I have about Asian food with different perspectives on that question of authenticity. You' ; re describing the " ; mom and pops" ; as being, in your view, sort of focused on the food and perhaps more authentic in your view. What does the concept of authenticity mean to you? |00:31:41| LY Basically, it' ; ll take you to that country and it feels like you' ; re in Vietnam when you' ; re eating it because it tastes just like it or whatnot. To me, that' ; s what authenticity means. It' ; s just they' ; ll take you to that place. So and then you can tell through the food how hard they worked on that recipe or whatnot through all the flavors. |00:32:06| BRODY Interesting. A lot of this during this time also, you know, restaurants that aren' ; t specifically Asian, you know, have learned from, or borrowed the, some of the flavor profiles of Asian food. What do you think about that? |00:32:23| LY I don' ; t mind it because there because there are say, quote-unquote non-Asians that they' ; ve been to Vietnam, and they studied it. And then there' ; s other places that will...that will try to put out like a pho dish, but it' ; s not pho. Like it' ; s not true to what it' ; s supposed to be. I get you' ; re trying to put your own spin on it, but you can still put your own spin on it. But it still has to be true to what it is. And then there' ; s sometimes where they won' ; t even spell it right, like banh mi. Supposed to be- they spelled that wrong. And then it was a whole thing like and then people were trying to correct him, but he wouldn' ; t, the chef wouldn' ; t listen, or the owner wouldn' ; t listen. But there' ; s nothing wrong with other people trying to, like, mimic or, you know, put it out there. You just got to be respectful and respectful to it to make sure it has just the same ingredients and whatnot, you know? |00:33:15| BRODY Right. Yeah. It' ; s a tricky area, too, now. So we' ; ve been talking about Asian Grub in DFDub you and its impact on this area and restaurants in this area and how much it' ; s helped. What about your just general views about the role of social media when it comes to food in general? |00:33:43| LY Yeah. So obviously there' ; s food photographers out there. There' ; s, I know a couple and they do great pictures and people eat first with their eyes. That' ; s why you always see at the restaurant, there' ; s people right when the meal comes out and before everyone eats, their cameras are out. They just want to show people what they' ; re eating. And it' ; s...It just gives a platform. Without...It' ; s something to let people know without actually saying something. So like I said, people eat with their eyes. So and then social media. If you, if you do like have good editing skills or whatnot or good ideas and you can...It makes people want to come in just because of what like a reel that you did very well too. So that' ; s why there' ; s a lot of food bloggers. People invite food bloggers to the restaurants first because they have a wide reach. So if they' ; re there and they see what it then people are going to migrate there to and check it out. |00:34:39| BRODY So do you see yourselves as influencers? |00:34:42| LY No. Not really. No. We' ; re just here to help the community. I mean, I never really influence anyone. Just there for people to check and get good food and see what' ; s out there. So. |00:34:54| BRODY Well, 50,000 people joined the group. So, in terms of the role of this group in the DFW food landscape, I think this is kind of what you' ; re talking about here. What is your and your friends' ; philosophy going forward? |00:35:12| LY It' ; s going to be the same thing just from the start. Support, enjoy good food and we...Positivity is always a good thing. Everyone' ; s always going to have a negative thing, but there' ; s a time and place to say the negatives and whatnot. And people just got to learn. There' ; s not one thing in the world everyone' ; s going to agree on. Like, you can' ; t tell me one thing that everyone likes. So some people like the sun. Some people like at night, you know, stuff like that. So just they just got to remember, food is subjective, and you like what you like. |00:35:52| BRODY Speaking of that, what role do you think food plays in sort of communicating or educating about culture? |00:36:00| LY It helps people learn about the culture, where it came from because and also, so it goes from you ate something well, like you like a lot. You might want to try to make it at home. So you look up the recipe. And then a lot of the recipes have an origin story, like this came from my mom' ; s recipe from Vietnam or Thailand, whatever. So that helps other people learn about where it came from and whatnot. So food is...It' ; s another language within itself without ever saying it, speaking or anything. So that' ; s what I think it is. |00:36:38| BRODY Do you think eating food from other cultures than your own helps you connect with people from that culture? |00:36:46| LY Oh yeah, for sure. Because you can meet someone randomly, like while you' ; re out and just be talking about food, like, " ; Oh, I had this, this is really good." ; Or I' ; m trying to think of this dish and then they might know it. Food does connect people. Even if you don' ; t know each other, you could just eat. People could talk about food all night long. |00:37:10| BRODY For sure. Okay, I want to hear more about the food festivals and sort of the not online parts of this group. |00:37:18| LY So like the back end and how we did it. |00:37:21| BRODY How you did it, what the goals are. |00:37:23| LY So yeah, so we wanted to do, we talked about doing a food festival maybe like a year and a half ago. So it took that long to get it done. So we had to look for space obviously, but we wanted something central. And then we also had to think about if you wanted to charge vendors, charge admission or whatnot. So obviously if we wanted to charge admission, we had to, we had to find a place that was enclosed. So if we couldn' ; t, then you have to rent fencing. Which- fencing is expensive by square footage. So at that time we decided we' ; ll just scratch that, make everything free since it' ; s our first one. And then we had to figure out what vendors we want as well and how many. So we basically did one. We did ones that were like very popular in the group and then others that weren' ; t well known. So we had a blend of both which helped a lot. So and then our good friends at Krio, they offered their space up, which is really great. So we were able to put it there and then just and then we wanted, then we decided we want entertainment too. So we actually had some like singers like Jonavi was one of them. She reached out to us and determined we had some DJs and then Rising Phoenix Lion Dance company. They came and did a little like 20-minute routine. They' ; re like the number one Lion Dance company in Texas, especially in DFW. |00:38:50| BRODY Where did you hold it? |00:38:52| LY It was in Bishop Arts at Krio spot. So right in front of their, what would you call it, their big patio, whatever. And then the parking lot, we closed the street off and everything. Then just getting permits was a tough one. |00:39:08| BRODY I' ; m sure. |00:39:08| LY Especially with Dallas. They' ; re tough. So, yeah. |00:39:11| BRODY Tell me about that. I mean, none of you were in that line of work. And this is... |00:39:17| LY Kimberly. She' ; s actually familiar with permits and whatnot because of her job. So she knew like kind of what to do. So basically, we just had to- we basically went on their website and just looked at the rules and who to contact and whatnot. Just takes forever to get permits. And we wanted the street closure too because it would be more safe. And luckily, we got that because that helped the flow of everything. But then food vendors had to get their own permits and whatnot. And then if you' ; re a food truck, that' ; s a different permit. And if you weren' ; t a restaurant, a brick and mortar, it' ; d be a different permit, there' ; s a lot, but we got it done. So yeah. |00:39:56| BRODY So was it a good turnout? |00:39:57| LY It was a very...I think throughout the whole day it was over 1000 people throughout the whole day from noon to six. And I asked my vendors to please not sell out, but they sold out by like 3:00, 4:00. I was hoping that by 5:00, they' ; d be sold out, but a lot of them just sold out quick. |00:40:15| BRODY Right, because there was so much demand. |00:40:17| LY The only the bad part about that day was the heat. And it was...Because I wanted to do it where it was cooler like early in the year, in a year, but then it was AAPI month. We have to tie that in, which was perfect. So I mean, other than the heat, everything was great. |00:40:31| BRODY And do you see yourselves doing another one every year? |00:40:34| LY Yes. I don' ; t know what location yet, but we will. We want to do at least once a year, at least so. And I want to turn it into a big night market, too, because I know if you' ; ve been to OC, they have a night market. It' ; s like 150 vendors and they only charge like five bucks admission and then they do like once a month, I think. |00:40:55| BRODY So it' ; s that' ; s yeah, that' ; s a, that' ; s a really good idea. And there' ; s nothing like that. |00:41:00| LY There is not. Yeah. So I think it' ; d be great if we can get that done. |00:41:04| BRODY So do you see events like that as sort of enhancing the group or vice versa? |00:41:12| LY You know, enhancing for sure, because it gives them some, it gives the members more than just going on the page to like to look at food and talk about it. So at least with the festival, it brings all members, even nonmembers, just to one area. They can enjoy tons of food at once, too. And then know about these places that they' ; ve never heard of. |00:41:33| BRODY So do the vendors hand out, like cards or things like that? |00:41:39| LY I don' ; t think they did for this one, but I mean, their social media is, are always. Plus on our Instagram page, I highlighted each restaurant, each vendor, like each day. So people can see that. |00:41:53| BRODY So and always go back in. |00:41:55| LY Yeah, for sure. |00:41:58| BRODY Did you group well, do you ever talk about your responsibilities that, that you feel now that you have all these followers and have built this community. |00:42:06| LY Yeah. We just...Responsibility of keeping, maintaining what we' ; ve been doing, keeping the same keeping same throughout, like positive to make sure we don' ; t go against what we' ; ve been doing. So then I think that' ; s the biggest responsibility of the group. Just make sure it stays maintained and just doesn' ; t one day, just we stop and like what happens now? So it' ; s a thing we' ; re going to have to keep like keep going and going. |00:42:38| BRODY So it sounds just unrelenting. There' ; s, every day, every hour, and a lot more to do. And plus with your ideas for growth or expansion into, you know, bricks and mortar and also other cities that... |00:42:54| LY Yeah, the other cities I really like because it just gives them one platform because, you know, they don' ; t have what we have. So Oklahoma City restaurants can promote on our page if they want. And you know, because we do get posts for people asking about restaurants and they' ; re visiting Hawaii, New York, we have to decline them because we' ; re DFW based. I can' ; t. At first, we did open it up like when we first started to like any city just, you know, we' ; re supporting. But then as we were like, we got to just make it strictly DFW. So yeah, the website would be good for people who travel outside of DFW. |00:43:34| BRODY And I mean, would it, will be challenging to maintain the spirit and the quality? |00:43:39| LY For... |00:43:40| BRODY For if you were expanding to other cities. |00:43:42| LY No, I don' ; t think it would be too much of a challenge. I mean, of course, maintaining make sure the, you know, on the back end like, you know, all the editing and whatnot on the website, that' ; s something different. But overall it would help because we do get a lot of out of state questions, out of DFW, even for Houston. And then we do since we' ; ve ended up in the early stages, we have let those kinds of posts go through. It' ; s still there. So if we see a question, will just tag them in that one. But then because in the group, when you like, comment on a post, it goes to the top so everyone can see it. So that helps too. |00:44:22| BRODY Yeah. Earlier you mentioned that you explicitly, you know, did not want this to be a Yelp type scenario where people were, you know, posting reviews. And that makes me think about sort of the relationship of a large group like yours that has so much influence with traditional food media. What are you know, what are your thoughts about that? |00:44:46| LY So I know a lot of businesses hate Yelp. Like they can' ; t stand them. I mean, I still use Yelp just to find places or I' ; ll look at pictures, but I don' ; t ever really, I don' ; t read the reviews because I like to...I like to I would like to go there and have my own opinion on it if I like it or not. So and then at least with the Facebook group, with the positivity. We always tell people, " ; If you have a problem with what happened at the restaurant, just try and talk to the owner yourself." ; Message them. You don' ; t have to put in that group. So I think Yelp just kills businesses. Because even like, oh, there' ; s one time, my friend' ; s seafood restaurant, she, that a customer gave a bad review on Yelp because she wasn' ; t giving chopsticks for her rice. I say it' ; s a seafood restaurant because they serve rice just like gumbo or whatnot. And then I was like, you know, she left a bad view just because of that. I was like, " ; So Yelp is evil." ; |00:45:53| BRODY What about the sort of traditional food media? Like, you know, the magazine reviews, newspaper reviews, things like that. Where do you know, sort of what are your opinions around that and your group' ; s relationship with that type of critique? |00:46:08| LY They...So you' ; re like sort of a blogger goes in. |00:46:12| BRODY Yeah. Or like, yeah, like a reviewer from the Dallas Morning News or something like that. |00:46:17| LY Yeah, I' ; ve actually read a lot of those articles. I haven' ; t seen it' ; s been all good for those type of that type of media because it' ; s highlighting the restaurant, of course, and then it' ; s letting people know about it because they have not heard of it. I haven' ; t seen anything bad from those types. |00:46:35| BRODY So they' ; re different than Yelp. |00:46:37| LY And yeah, they' ; re basically just highlighting the store, the restaurant itself and giving the backstory of the owner. So, I' ; ve seen all positive stuff for like and stuff like that. |00:46:49| BRODY I don' ; t know if you can say, but in in your administering this group, what have been some of the finds that have most excited you, that you think places that you didn' ; t know about that you found out about through this group. |00:47:01| LY The there' ; s an egg tart place in Richardson, Maria' ; s. Oh, yes. Maria' ; s Egg...something. And she- they put in a pizza box like 24 egg tarts, always fresh, so good. And then there' ; s a bunch of I mean, I, I' ; ve eaten around a lot, so there' ; s a place that I tell people about in Haltom City called Asiannights. It' ; s Lao-Thai restaurant, sweet family. Super good. Their crispy pork belly with the pork sauce- really good. So I like to, I like to tell when people ask for suggestions, I' ; ll just give a small list of stuff that are popular within the group that aren' ; t known yet, and then it' ; s up to them to try it. |00:47:47| BRODY So yeah, I' ; ll bet a lot of people ask you personally for suggestions. |00:47:50| LY Oh yeah. I get texts from friends all the time. Instead of them wanting to use the group, they' ; ll just ask me. |00:47:56| BRODY So in case you' ; re keeping secrets or something. |00:47:58| LY Or if I' ; m on regular, my own page and I' ; ll see a friend ask about whatever, and then I' ; ll just tag them in a post in the group. |00:48:07| BRODY So that' ; s great. Looking back over the last few years and these experiences, what are some reflections or what have you learned from this whole unexpected experience? |00:48:22| LY I have learned that people love food, and they' ; ll argue over food. But also support is really big out here in DFW. You would have not known if this group was not created because normally, they would just support their friends or whatnot. So and then we' ; ve only had, like I said, Yelp or Google reviews to go to figure out what to eat. So that' ; s the biggest surprise. And like the support, that everyone gets together for a good cause. |00:48:55| BRODY Yeah. That' ; s I mean, it' ; s really interesting because of the emphasis on positivity and that they' ; re not actually restaurant reviews, it' ; s a whole a genre that doesn' ; t exist otherwise. |00:49:10| LY Your own. Instead of just putting it on your own Facebook. That' ; s what the group is for. Just to let people know about it. " ; I love this place. You know, someone else is going to love it, too." ; |00:49:21| BRODY What do you think the impact of this group has been? How have you changed DFW? |00:49:28| LY The community got stronger, for sure. And then just, it' ; s just amazing how many businesses it saved, like, I don' ; t know. There probably been, there' ; s been a few closures. But I think there would have been way more closures. But also, it helps people understand inflation and whatnot. And there' ; s a like- people will complain about, " ; Oh, this got more expensive." ; And you got to understand, everywhere is expensive, now. It' ; s hard to get things though, it is what it is. But just helps people understand kind of the restaurant side, too. So that' ; s what' ; s good about it, too. |00:50:08| BRODY So it' ; s really interesting. Well, I am so happy that I got a chance to talk to you. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you today that you' ; d like to add to this interview? |00:50:19| LY Honestly, you asked all good questions. Everything. |00:50:22| BRODY Thank you. |00:50:22| LY Yeah, it was great. |00:50:23| BRODY Thank you. And I really appreciate your work that you' ; re doing and that your voice is included in this project. |00:50:30| LY Thank you very much. |00:50:31| BRODY Thank you so much. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
OHMS Object
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https://diggingindallas.org/education/render.php?cachefile=2021oh002_di_018.xml
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Interview with Vu Ly, August 1, 2022
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2021oh002_di_018
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Facebook
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2022-08-01
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audio
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Betsy Brody
Interviewee
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Linda Kao
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5.4 Interview with Linda Kao_Part 2, December 21, 2021 2021oh002_di_017 00:11:11 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Chinese Linda Kao Betsy Brody m4a oh_audio_dig_Linda_Kao_2_20211221.m4a 1:|9(1)|19(7)|26(9)|31(3)|42(12)|53(10)|57(5)|61(13)|70(6)|78(9)|84(11) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/162875 Aviary audio 11 Kao family's involvement in the Chinese Community Center bridge ; celebrations ; Chinese Community Center ; Chinese New Year ; culture 32.95964483523445, -96.72663078121094 17 117 " ; Flying Tigers pilots monthly lunch at Royal China Colonel Menkin ; Flying Tigers ; Royal China 272 Bestsellers at Royal China/Thoughts on fusion, authenticity, and trends in food authentic ; Chinese food ; Chinese restaurant ; comfort food ; Dry Stirred beef ; foodie ; fusion ; General Tso's chicken ; menu ; vegetarian Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Chinese ; Texas--History “Digging In” explores how the growth of the Asian community coincided with the rise of “foodie culture” in Dallas, leading to unique opportunities for economic and social engagement between and among different Asian immigrant groups as well as with the larger Dallas community. |00:00:07| BRODY OK. I' ; m restarting the recording now, and I want to go back and talk a little bit more about your family' ; s involvement in the Chinese Community Center. Can you tell me, sort of, what were some of the events or celebrations that that would have happened there? |00:00:29| KAO Well, my mother actualIy was on the Board of Directors until she passed on. And so she' ; s very involved in all the activities. Of course, we all love Chinese New Year. And my mom always made sure, on Chinese New Year Day, prepare red envelope for all the children that come to the Center. And she would personally give them red envelope, for good luck, to every one of them. And she' ; s a very spirited person and loves, loved, a good party. |00:01:35| BRODY That' ; s great. Were there celebrations, speaking of Chinese New Year, were there celebrations like that at the restaurant as well? |00:01:47| KAO Well, believe it or not, we had been talking about it, but we never did it. Because we are just so busy. Yeah. |00:01:56| BRODY Right. Earlier, you mentioned some of the notable celebrities and whatnot that went to the restaurant. And you mentioned a man who recognized your dad from the Korean War. Can you talk a little bit more about that? |00:02:15| KAO Yeah, he was. I always remember him fondly and Colonel Menkin and he lived in Duncanville back then and he would come regularly to the restaurant. And always had the best conversation with my dad. And another group that my father was very proud of and felt very honored to be part of it was the " ; Flying Tigers." ; You know, " ; Flying Tigers" ; was the, they' ; re the pilots organized by General Chennault during WWII to fight the Japanese. And surprisingly, there were quite a few survivors living in the DFW area. So, I remember way back then, they would come once a week, once a month, for a luncheon get-together. And my father was always looking forward to seeing them. |00:04:05| BRODY So they had a reunion once a month at the Royal China? |00:04:11| KAO Right. And, obviously, over the years, the number was smaller, and unfortunately, they all passed on. |00:04:28| BRODY It is too bad. I' ; m sorry to hear that. What are the best-sellers at the restaurant over the years. |00:04:37| KAO Well. I would say General' ; s Chicken. And Dry-Stirred Beef. I remember for a long time, the Moo Shu Pork. And of course, up to now, people still say, Moo Goo Gai Pan. |00:05:13| BRODY A lot of some of those are. Unique to Royal China, like the Dry Stirred Beef, and some are things that you see on a lot of Chinese menus you know, around the world. That makes me think of this question of the role of a menu. What, what is when you' ; re running a restaurant, especially a restaurant that' ; s primary clientele are people who are not part of that tradition, what, what' ; s important to think about when you' ; re devising the menu and deciding you know what you' ; re going to serve? |00:05:56| KAO Well, I think we' ; re always trying to entice and we' ; ll always have some comfort food. And some inspire. So we always want to have a fairly broad, different meats. We also have to sort of understand the trends. For instance, " ; gluten free" ; or vegetarian, low sodium. Since we are not cooking by formula, everything is fresh, fresh ingredients. And so, you know, sometime my daughter was helping out, and she said " ; Oh my God! Somebody ordered Chicken Chow Mein, or Chicken Lo Mein with no chicken, no vegetables!" ; She said, " ; Why can' ; t they just say ' ; We want plain noodles?' ; " ; So, we can customize everything. So as I said, we want them to entice, inspire, explore. And also finding comfort and enjoy eating. |00:08:02| BRODY That' ; s a great answer. When we' ; re talking about restaurants, a lot of times there' ; s a debate about what is " ; authentic." ; Where do you stand on that question? |00:08:18| KAO Well, I' ; m a very big foodie. So, I have a lot of respect for food. And while I' ; m not expert or a connoisseur in every cuisine, I feel, if it' ; s pleasing to your palate, you enjoy it, and if it' ; s from that country, or a deviation, or a fusion, why not? You know, especially nowadays, there' ; s so many fusion. You know, like Peru, fusion of Japanese, Latin American. India- there' ; s the Chinese and Indian food. So, who can say, " ; That' ; s not authentic?" ; It' ; s authentic for some people. It may not be you, but we have to respect that. |00:09:45| BRODY Thank you so much for that. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask that I should have or anything that you' ; d like to say? |00:09:59| KAO You know, my family has been here for almost 50 years and is tied to Royal China, and I don' ; t know. There' ; s so much wonderful memories. And Royal China, and Dallas has given us so much that you know, it' ; s like a Giving Tree, just keep on giving. We feel very blessed, and I can' ; t think of anything particular. We are just so thankful. |00:10:58| BRODY Well, thank you so much for sharing your memories and for helping to put the story of Royal China into the record. I appreciate it. |00:11:09| KAO Thank you for having us. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
OHMS Object
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https://diggingindallas.org/education/render.php?cachefile=2021oh002_di_017.xml
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Interview with Linda Kao_Part 2, December 21, 2021
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2021oh002_di_017
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Chinese
Date
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2021-12-21
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audio
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Betsy Brody
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jimmy Niwa
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Interview with Jimmy Niwa, June 9, 2022 2021oh002_di_016 00:49:35 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Japanese Jimmy Niwa Betsy Brody wav oh_dig_audio_niwa_jimmy_20220609.wav 1:|14(12)|32(5)|51(3)|69(7)|87(12)|101(11)|113(8)|130(3)|144(8)|157(14)|173(17)|189(4)|202(2)|213(5)|223(9)|233(3)|243(4)|251(7)|261(6)|273(6)|285(13)|299(3)|307(4)|319(2)|330(7)|340(12)|353(4)|365(3)|377(2)|386(7)|399(4)|411(5)|425(3)|436(13)|447(2)|458(11)|468(12)|480(2)|489(9)|502(7)|513(1)|520(11)|529(12)|542(3)|554(1)|565(9)|578(6)|588(4)|598(10) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/164386 Aviary audio 0 Introduction Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Japanese ; Texas--History 32 Moving from California to Texas 117 Culinary school in California and teaching in Japan culinary school ; Japan ; yaki niku 170 Growing up in Orange County, California/Japanese comfort foods California ; comfort foods 265 Opening Niwa's Japanese Barbecue Deep Ellum ; Japanese ; Niwa Japanese Barbecue ; restaurants ; yaki niku 32.78907311570053, -96.78091741964128 17 https://niwabbq.com/ 375 Technical aspects of setting up a yakiniku restaurant permit ; yaki niku 516 Customer experience at Niwa Japanese Barbecue customers ; yaki niku 568 Changes in Dallas Dallas ; Deep Ellum ; Japanese ; Japanese restaurants ; Niwa Japanese Barbecue 698 Flavors at Niwa Japanese Barbecue Asian flavors ; barbecue ; flavor ; fried chicken ; fusion ; Niwa Japanese Barbecue ; pickles ; sushi ; trends ; Wagyu ; yaki niku 829 Thoughts on authenticity Americanized ; authentic ; authenticity ; burrito ; California roll ; crab ; Japanese ; pizza ; Wagyu ; western palate 1198 Impact of local sourcing on evolution of foods California roll ; educate ; education ; pizza ; sushi 1308 Reflections on impact of French culinary training French ; technique ; techniques 1413 Fusion cuisine and culture cultures ; fusion 1492 Role of food in transmitting culture culture ; diversity ; ethnic food ; food ; immigrant ; Japanese ; Japanese food 1622 Decision to go to culinary school cooking ; culinary school 1705 Asian food in DFW Asian restaurant ; Dallas ; Deep Ellum ; Monkey King ; noodles ; poke ; trends ; western palate 1801 Learning about barbecue and Asian food in DFW Asian flavors ; Asian food ; Asian restaurant ; barbecue ; flavor ; palate ; photography ; Yelp 1921 Customers customers ; Deep Ellum ; diversity 1968 Yelp reviews/Social Media negative reviews ; reviews ; social media ; star ; Yelp 2124 Thoughts about professional restaurant reviewers educate ; negative reviews ; restaurant reviewer ; restaurant reviews ; Yelp 2379 Expansion and growth COVID ; expansion ; growth ; Plano 2424 Asian food community in Dallas Asian community ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; Asian Night Market ; Asian restaurant ; Bomb Factory 2616 Impact of weather and COVID on business challenge ; challenges ; cooking kits ; COVID ; Deep Ellum ; electricity ; ice storm ; neighborhood ; pivot ; power outages ; shutdown ; Texas grid ; tornado ; weather 2750 Celebrities celebrities 2797 Relationships with neighbors in Deep Ellum Deep Ellum ; neighborhood ; neighbors 2850 Reflections and lessons on the food industry appreciation ; chefs ; food ; industry |00:00:04| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is June 9th, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Mr. Jimmy Niwa. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you so much for sitting for this interview. Let' ; s start out just by talking about where and when were you born? |00:00:36| Niwa Absolutely. I was born in Michigan, small city Cassidy in 1981. |00:00:47| Brody What brought you to Texas? |00:00:50| Niwa I was living in Los Angeles most of my life. And I moved to Japan for a couple of years, over two years. And upon returning to California, my business partner and I decided to open a restaurant. And Texas was one of the three choices. |00:01:11| Brody What were the other two? |00:01:12| Niwa Colorado. The Denver, Colorado area. And then Portland/Seattle area. |00:01:17| Brody What drew you to Texas? |00:01:20| Niwa Oh, I guess quite a few things. One was the business, small business benefits here. California is a very difficult state to do small business in. And then also the diversity, the growing diversity I think in Texas. But also at that time, we felt like there was a lot of missing food that we would love to bring out here. And yaki niku or Japanese barbecue was one of them. |00:01:57| Brody Tell me about your time in Japan. What were you doing there? |00:02:00| Niwa I was teaching at a culinary school in Yokkaichi which is kind of a smaller city in Mie ken, which Mie as the prefecture. I was teaching at a culinary school there doing mostly Western style cooking for about two years. |00:02:23| Brody So you already had a culinary background at that point? |00:02:27| Niwa Yes. And I did go to culinary school in California, at Le Cordon Bleu. |00:02:34| Brody What did you specialize in? |00:02:36| Niwa The program is French cooking. |00:02:41| Brody But you wanted to...You wanted to do Japanese barbecue? |00:02:45| Niwa Yeah. Just because of my background. My upbringing. |00:02:50| Brody Yeah. Tell me about your upbringing. |00:02:53| Niwa Well, both parents are Japanese, born in Japan, so I' ; m second generation Japanese. You know, when we grew up, it was a lot of...I grew up with a very diverse community in school all the way from elementary through high school. I think Asians were still less than ten to fifteen percent. But it was a very diverse school. |00:03:19| Brody In Los Angeles? |00:03:20| Niwa Yeah, I was actually in Orange County. |00:03:27| Brody So did you eat a lot of barbecue when you were growing up? |00:03:30| Niwa Not a whole lot. I did eat a lot of Japanese comfort foods, which is what I got me into cooking. But Japanese barbecue was, you know, even then, a treat to go have and there would be quite a drive. At that time, I think there was only a couple in Orange County and then a few in Los Angeles as well. |00:03:53| Brody So how did you learn the ins and outs of doing it? |00:03:57| Niwa By eating it. No. From culinary school, I kind of cooked everything I could, worked wherever I could. I worked in the hotels, I worked at restaurants, kind of wanted to learn it all. My first job in the industry was in an Italian pizza restaurant, so from there, I just wanted to learn as much as I could. |00:04:25| Brody Great. So tell me about your business. |00:04:28| Niwa It' ; s a Japanese barbecue. It' ; s also known as " ; yaki niku." ; " ; Yaki" ; in Japanese translates to grilled and " ; niku" ; translates to meat. So it' ; s kind of just a literal translation of " ; grilled meats." ; . |00:04:43| Brody You mentioned a business partner earlier. Do you? Did that business partner carry over into the current restaurant? |00:04:49| Niwa Yes. Yeah. |00:04:50| Brody Yeah. So what is the name of the restaurant? Where is it located? |00:04:54| Niwa It' ; s Niwa Japanese Barbecue. We' ; re down in Deep Ellum. It' ; s about a 4000, little over 4000 square foot restaurant, about 120 seats. |00:05:07| Brody How did you decide on that location? |00:05:10| Niwa It actually kind of came about...Funny because we were, we were searching all over the place with ta yaki niku style restaurant, there' ; s a lot of penetrations in the ceilings and there' ; s a lot of saw cutting in the ground. And most second generation spaces, there' ; s very little benefit to us. And if anything, it' ; s more of a hassle or a workaround. So we typically want to find a first generation space that also doesn' ; t have anything above us because we need a lot of air conditioning or ventilation. So we had been searching around for quite some time and we got a call from our current landlord, Madison Partners. And Jon Hetzel called us and said, " ; We got some information saying you' ; re looking for a space and we think we might have the perfect one for you." ; And that was previously a auto glass repair store. So it wasn' ; t typical for that to turn into a restaurant, but it was perfect because it was just a cold, dark shell. |00:06:15| Brody So walk me through the ins and outs of how you, you know, how you set up a yaki niku restaurant. |00:06:23| Niwa There' ; s a lot of cutting. All the tables, what we use is what' ; s called a downdraft system. Excuse me. So all the tables are, all the grills are built into the table and the downdraft system sucks the air down, and then it drafts up and outside the building. So every table has to connect through this kind of chain of mechanical ducting that goes out of the building. So it' ; s a tedious project. Our general contractor, Southlake, were great. Definitely had some challenges that they had to come across. And, you know, first time building something like that is pretty difficult. |00:07:09| Brody It sounds like it. Were there any challenges, particularly about sourcing the grills and so forth or permits for building that? |00:07:19| Niwa This is pre-COVID, so sourcing the grills was no problem. It did take about three months to get here, but we obviously were building. So it actually came a little bit earlier than we had expected. So we had to store it offsite. Other than that, yeah, it was just more or less finding the right materials. But these systems are kind of complete packages in general. |00:07:46| Brody Great. What about with the city permits and things like that? |00:07:50| Niwa Yeah, we were fine all the way up until our final inspection with the fire inspector, and at the last minute, he thought he might want us to have a what' ; s called the kind of an Ansul system which extinguishes fire with foam. And he thought he may want us to put one into the table that would have kind of a like a hose that looks like a faucet for your kitchen and obviously a huge eyesore for us. So fortunately, we were able to show some documentation for restaurants across the nation that did that that did not need that. There' ; s extinguishing from above through the fire sprinklers and then each unit has their own Ansul system built in. So we' ; re very lucky they didn' ; t require that. |00:08:36| Brody So from a customer perspective, walk me through the customer' ; s experience when they get to your restaurant. |00:08:42| Niwa Sure. For some, it may be a little daunting at first. There' ; s a grill in the middle. Of the table. And half the food that we make comes out from the kitchen. The other half is going to come out raw and ready to cook at the grills. We do provide some times and tags there so everyone knows what kind of meat they' ; re eating and how long it takes to cook. But it' ; s a very interactive process. It' ; s a very fun one. You can kind of eat what you like and it kind of breaks up the monotony of traditional steak, potatoes and a veggie kind of dining. Not that there' ; s anything wrong with it, but this just gets a little more fun and you can really kind of create your own meal. |00:09:28| Brody That sounds fun. What was Dallas like when you got here and when you were trying to establish this restaurant? |00:09:35| Niwa Oh, well it' ; s definitely changed since now. I was one of the few Californians at the time that now I complain about as well. But yeah, I mean traffic was not as bad. The construction was really booming at the time, and it still is, but not as apparent as it was then. Deep Ellum was kind of a risk for us. We had looked through the history of it and it had gone through many ups and downs. But at that time we thought, well, it does look like there' ; s quite a bit of resources being put into this and some efforts. And since then we' ; ve had some challenges, but overall, it' ; s been a very great location for us. |00:10:22| Brody What year was this? |00:10:23| Niwa This was 2015 to 2016. We opened in late 2016. |00:10:31| Brody In terms of other Japanese restaurants or other yaki niku restaurants, or did you have much competition when you got here? |00:10:39| Niwa No, we were the only ones in Dallas. We found out right as we moved here that another big chain out of Japan was franchising a restaurant out here, too. But they were in Addison. So at that time, there was only the two of us. Now there is one more in Dallas, and I think a couple more in the suburbs. |00:11:01| Brody And the other Japanese restaurants that already existed. It' ; s a totally different thing or did you perceive them as being competition? |00:11:10| Niwa Actually, one of them is a company that I used to work with. Before and very popular in Japan. They have, I think, maybe 600 plus locations, maybe 30 or so in the States. Very well run machine, but just a little bit different. We thought we could do a little better as far as quality goes and some of the flavors as well. |00:11:38| Brody Yeah, tell me about the flavors. |00:11:41| Niwa So we you know, we wanted to have as much of the true to nature yaki niku style items, but we also wanted to do a little bit of a twist on some of them. So a few of our dishes are kind of fusion style dishes. We have a Wagyu deviled egg, for example, which we use shiso, which is a mint leaf instead of typically like a parsley in the deviled eggs. And then we top it with a little bit of Wagyu beef and some nori, which is Japanese seaweed, and then shichimi with or togarashi, which is a chili powder. So just kind of our take on a classic deviled egg. |00:12:23| Brody Yeah. That is something that comes up a lot in a lot of the conversations that I' ; m having for this project, the challenge of sort of staying true to the traditional recipes or techniques, but also of adapting to, you know, to the time and place that you' ; re in or the desire to to push the, you know, the recipe forward. What are your thoughts about those balances? |00:12:52| Niwa You know, I think food will and always has been a work in progress and will remain that way forever. I think there' ; s always a surge in certain styles or types of dishes. We see fried chicken here in Dallas. That' ; s that' ; s got a huge revitalization, I guess you can say. You know, sushi has gone through the same kind of cycles. Pickles are another one I think that kind of keep coming about just in different ways, and I think that' ; s going to continue to happen forever because we' ; re also dealing with the same foods and, you know, typically the same ingredients and we just had to find different ways to make them work. So I think we' ; ll see that continuously. |00:13:50| Brody What about that concept of authenticity? Where where do you stand on that? I mean, what you' ; re doing is very, you know, something that' ; s a very traditional Japanese method. What do you think about that? |00:14:03| Niwa The word authenticity is a tough one. I think everyone has a very strong opinion on what that word means. For me, it can go so many different directions. I think what I try to live by is should anyone be offended by this? For example, a burrito was not created in South America. You know, I believe the history of it is from San Diego. So who has the claim to right for that is very questionable. You know, what' ; s an authentic burrito is also a very hard thing to come about. And what' ; s the difference between a burrito and a wrap? You know, these are conversations that I think chefs always have, quite often, mostly out of curiosity. But at the same time, we don' ; t want to necessarily offend anyone. If you say it' ; s authentic, then I think it needs to be very true to nature. Once you take away the key components to what made that dish what it is or you take away from the history of it, I think that' ; s where it can become offensive. Pizza may be another example. Pizza. You don' ; t really...Who really gets the claim to fame for it? It' ; s Italian? I think by nature. But you rarely will see pizza in Italy. And if you do, it' ; s very different than what' ; s here. And if you go to New York, you see New York style pizza. And there' ; s...You know which one' ; s authentic when two of them on the same street next door to each other may be entirely different. So I think it' ; s really a question of what makes us authentic or inauthentic. California rolls are not typically what any Japanese person would call sushi. And that developed from, you know, local ingredients or what was on hand. So should it be considered sushi? I think that' ; s really just, you know, a question of who you' ; re asking. I think the point where it becomes offensive is, you know, typically a California roll will be rice with seaweed and then crab, avocado and cucumber. I think as it developed, masago, which is the small eggs were wrapped on the outside or sesame seed. But I think if you were to take the cucumber and use zucchini and take the crab and use shrimp and call it a California roll, then I think it could be considered offensive. Who would be offended by it? I' ; m not sure, because I don' ; t think many people claim the California roll as theirs. But I think that' ; s really kind of an example of when it becomes offensive, you know, when you' ; re talking about traditional style dishes. Then I think you should really stick to what it is. For example, the deviled eggs, we very clearly wanted to make a Wagyu deviled eggs because we don' ; t want it...Someone to expect something entirely different. And I think that' ; s really what it is is the expectations. We deal with us a lot with Wagyu beef, too. I see the term used everywhere incorrectly. " ; Wagyu" ; translates literally into " ; Japanese cow." ; So if it' ; s not from Japan, it really should not be considered Wagyu. It' ; s kind of semantics, but once it' ; s, once the cattle is no longer in Japan, then it would be an imported Wagyu. So for me, being a second generation Japanese, you know, I' ; m American born. So if someone asked me if I' ; m Japanese, then yes, my ethnicity is Japanese, but I' ; m American. And I kind of think of it on the same lines with beef as well. So there are a lot of American Wagyu or domestic Wagyu products that are being made, which were from the genetics of Japanese Wagyu. But when comparing them side by side, there' ; s really no comparison and really there shouldn' ; t be. Australian Wagyu is getting to the point where it' ; s incredible, very similar to Japanese beef and the beef marbling scale or the grading systems. But even at that point. I think it still should be called Australian Wagyu. And not because Japanese Wagyu is better, but more because that' ; s just what it is. So everyone should be educated in that way and be able to make the comparisons on their own. I think the problem with claiming authenticity when you divert from it so far is that now the expectations are that. So somebody who may have never had or have had Wagyu beef here in the States, that was not true Japanese Wagyu was American Wagyu, if they were to go to Japan and eat Wagyu or have real Japanese Wagyu, they may be genuinely confused. And I think that happens quite often, you know, as foods become Americanized. There' ; s a reason for it because that' ; s where the tastes levels are, those are the sources we have. But I think to claim authenticity is where it becomes a little bit offensive or misleading, I should say. |00:19:58| Brody Thank you. Several people have mentioned that in devising their menu, they' ; re, you know, approaching it, you know, as you just said, from you know, let' ; s call it an accessibility, you know, perspective, what people' ; s palates are, you know, prepared for, ready for. But also, you know, with an idea toward educating customers through the menu about, you know, different things that aren' ; t, you know, aren' ; t the ones that that everybody' ; s heard of. Is that something that you' ; ve considered? |00:20:36| Niwa Yeah. I think it' ; s very difficult to source a 100% ingredients from anywhere outside of the US. So naturally, there' ; s going to be a difference from here to there. The New York pizza again, for example, everyone believes that the pizza dough tastes the way it does because of the water in New York. And I' ; ve seen stories of chefs that are bringing water from New York to make sure that they create the right kind of dough. In any case, I think, yes, sourcing is part of part of the natural evolution of these foods. Going back to California roll, I think it' ; s fair because it was called a " ; California roll." ; It didn' ; t, it wasn' ; t, you know, claimed that this is the new sushi or there was nothing offensive I think in that nature. I think when people get offended and say " ; California roll is not sushi" ; I think the question that has to be asked of " ; who said it was?" ; you know? And I think that' ; s just the problem there is the education level is that' ; s not sushi by any means. But there' ; s nothing wrong with the California roll. |00:21:49| Brody Your training as a chef and going to culinary school and learning French techniques. How has that informed the rest of your life as a restaurateur? |00:22:02| Niwa Well, this comment might get me hated by many. I think that' ; s actually a perfect example, is... French food typically is very true to nature. The five mother sauces they' ; ve created are still commonly used. Many of the techniques are exactly the same as they have been for hundreds of years. And I think that' ; s something to be appreciated on its own. I think this is also why a lot of French food is either it becomes a fusion style or needs some kind of huge change in it to make it different. You know, we talk about some of the things like a paté or terrines or some of those you typically don' ; t see too much swing away from the original. Like a coq au vin is just... I' ; ve rarely seen a fusion style that' ; s better than the original. But it also makes French food, I think, a little bit stale in that aspect is there is not a whole lot of evolution from there. So I feel as if, you know, what you' ; re getting into when you walk into a good French restaurant is you should know exactly what you' ; re getting. |00:23:34| Brody That concept of fusion is one that' ; s also kind of slippery or controversial. What do you think? What does that word mean to you and how do you think it' ; s best done? |00:23:46| Niwa I think fusion is, can be a great thing and can be a terrible thing. I think if you can understand and you have a history or a clear understanding of both cultures and both foods that you' ; re infusing, or fusing, I should say, not infusing would make it okay and better. I think a lot of times we see that' ; s very controversial is people that have no clue or understanding of the original dishes and then fusing them because there are some similarities and calling it a fusion dish. There are some fusion dishes that are incredible and there' ; s a lot that are terrible. So I don' ; t necessarily think it' ; s about whether fusion food is good or not. I think it' ; s just about the food. |00:24:51| Brody Speaking of food, what role do you think food plays in transmitting culture? |00:24:59| Niwa I think a huge amount. You know, growing up in such a diverse community, I went through a lot of, a lot of what I' ; m sure children of immigrants went through is " ; Do I hide this food from my friends and enjoy it on my own time? Or do I bring them in and share this with them? Will they like it? Will they not like it? You know, will they think I' ; m weird?" ; You know, Japanese food, I think, is less intense than many other foods out there, but I think that' ; s something that really is something that, you know, is huge into the culture of food and how we how we view it. You know, growing up, many of my friends were very open to it and tried a lot of it. And some of them absolutely hated some things and some of them were absolutely loved it. And I could never gauge why or how it just you know, I think it just happened. |00:26:03| Brody The other way around. Did you growing up in such a diverse area, did you get a chance to try food from other cultures? |00:26:10| Niwa Yes. I had a very terrible relationship with food when I was very young. The dinner table was something I hated because I was always in trouble. I didn' ; t care much about food and I just wanted to play. So I was always in trouble for either not eating all my food or for eating too fast or eating too slow or making a mess or whatnot. So it wasn' ; t until I was probably in high school where I really started to appreciate food and really had an interest for it. And that' ; s where I started cooking a little bit. But I did get the opportunity to eat all kinds of foods, you know, because a lot of my friends were from different areas. |00:27:03| Brody How did you decide to go to culinary school? |00:27:06| Niwa I went to school for mechanical engineering and I did a part time kind of internship. And just a couple of weeks into the internship, I realized, I cannot do this for the rest of my life. I don' ; t think I could sit still. I don' ; t think I could sit at a desk for, you know, eight to ten hours a day. It' ; s just not in my nature. So I decided...At the time I was working at that Italian restaurant while going to school, and so I just focused a little more time and energy there and I kind of moved up very quickly. And, at the time, the owner of the business, we had some issues with some staff that didn' ; t come in and were unable to come in. And so we ended up closing one of the restaurants for a day, and that' ; s where kind of a light bulb hit my mind, thinking if I were to ever own a restaurant, I can' ; t allow that to happen. So I need to understand all of it, every aspect of a restaurant. So that' ; s when I decided to enroll in culinary school. |00:28:25| Brody Interesting. About Asian food in particular, when you arrived in DFW, what was the landscape like as far as Asian restaurants? |00:28:38| Niwa There was a lot of, oh, geez, I' ; m going to say it. There wasn' ; t a whole lot of authentic Japanese restaurants. You know, I think Dallas in general can be a few years behind Los Angeles in the food industry especially. So some of the trends that we were, that I saw when I got here were things that were already happened in Los Angeles. Poke was one of them, I think at the time there was only one. And in Los Angeles, there is, you know, a ton. And so I think it was it was a little bit scarce. The reason why we chose Deep Ellum, too, is actually Monkey King. You know, he was doing Taiwanese beef noodles and he was busy. He was extremely busy. So, in my mind, I thought, well, you know, our food is not that out there. There' ; s nothing that will make people kind of scratch their head. It' ; s just meat grilled on a table in general. So I thought, well, if he has that much success, I don' ; t think ours is a far shot for giving it a chance here in Deep Ellum. |00:30:02| Brody You know, yaki niku is a variant of barbecue. And you came to Texas, which is a barbecue capital. Did you find yourself exploring the barbecue world or the Asian scene or both? |00:30:20| Niwa Both. I ate at every barbecue place I could for about a month. And Asian food wise, I tried as many as I could. But I think really, you know, nowadays photos can tell a lot. So, you know, through Google Earth or Yelp, we were able to kind of see, okay, is this a place that we should try and see if there' ; s, you know, that this is competition or at least what the direction is or what the taste profiles are? |00:31:00| Brody Yeah. Were you trying, in visiting all those restaurants, trying to sort of see, gauge the palate of the diner? |00:31:07| Niwa Yeah. And still to this day, I think, well, now you know, I think of myself as being very Texan as far as taste wise goes. But when I first came out here, my initial reaction was that everything was very salty and still, when we get people from New York or California or from Japan, especially, that come here to eat, that' ; s typically the first response is how' ; s the food is " ; Well, and everything here is a little bit salty," ; but for me I don' ; t see that anymore. Maybe because I' ; ve been here for so long, but yeah, that was definitely something that I had to learn really quickly was, you know, I think Texans love flavor so if the flavor is not there and right in your face, it may be considered a little bit bland. |00:32:02| Brody Who are your customers and how do they find you? |00:32:06| Niwa I like to say our customers are ones that like good food. Kidding, but I think our diversity is pretty big in the restaurant as well. We have you know, people that drive from quite a ways and we have a lot of locals that dine quite often, even locals from the Deep Ellum neighborhood itself. But honestly, I don' ; t think I can say that there' ; s an overwhelming majority of any category, age wise, ethnicity, anything. The demographics are really spread out I think. |00:32:48| Brody You mentioned Yelp a minute ago. And in talking to people we' ; ve been, I' ; ve been hearing a lot about, you know, the relationship between both professional reviewers coming to restaurants and the impact of social media and sites like Yelp and TripAdvisor and things like that. What are your experiences in that area? |00:33:11| Niwa Well, Yelp, I think, is a love-hate relationship. It' ; s done an incredible job as far as putting dining on the map and how we can approach it. There are a lot of drawbacks to Yelp. One being that there' ; s no confirmation there. So anyone can write a review about any place for any reason. There' ; s other sites like Open Table. That platform that you have to have a reservation, the restaurant has to see to do before you make a review. So they' ; re a little bit more genuine then because also that' ; s your profile. As far as Yelp goes, I think that' ; s given a lot of people who just want to voice their opinions, a platform to do so. For many people, I think it' ; s just a place to be angry and very, you know, you can see people who only write bad reviews. And there' ; s also people who when we write good reviews, when we discuss in our pre-shift meetings or manager meetings about Yelp reviews and all of that, we typically focus on the four stars and two star reviews. The five stars are great to know how we' ; re doing and we feel appreciated. The four stars, there' ; s a reason why someone left a four star and we need to pay attention to that. Sometimes it' ; s not even in the Yelp review because it may be a petty reason or they feel it' ; s a petty reason, so they don' ; t want to voice it. And then the same thing goes for a two is, I think instead of leaving a one star review, I think the reason why people leave a two is because there' ; s some kind of element there where they feel like, okay, they don' ; t, they didn' ; t deserve a one or zero, so they might give them a two and then follows the rant or the reason why. But I think those are the ones that we really have to pay attention to because they tell us that there' ; s more to it than what' ; s actually being written. |00:35:24| Brody That' ; s interesting. The difference between a Yelp review or something like that and a professional reviewer is that, you know, that their professional reviewer has sort of context in which they' ; re trying to to write their review. They' ; re educated about, you know, restaurants in general, about the type of food and so on. Whereas a Yelp reviewer is based on their feelings that day and not necessarily grounded in research or knowledge. Where, you know, what are your experiences? What impact have professional reviews had on your restaurant? |00:36:09| Niwa I think professional reviewers have more of an obligation. They have an obligation to their readers to do the right thing, to write an honest and genuine article. But more than that, they have an obligation to their publication or to their supervisors to write something that' ; s read worthy. So in doing so, I think a lot of professional writers feel the need to find an interesting story to tell. It would be boring to just read " ; This restaurant was okay, you should try it." ; So naturally they' ; re going to find things that they can really kind of put a spotlight onto. My restaurant has not had great interactions with a few writers. I' ; m a strong believer in educating people and, you know, in the foods that we have and giving them all the information we can. I think there' ; s a few writers that were in Dallas that did not do that, and I did voice my opinions to them. I think it was built partially out of laziness, and I think another part of it was really just trying to show off when there was no need to. So we did have a little bit of a going back and forth with one of the writers in Dallas. |00:37:50| Brody Did any of that have an impact on your business? |00:37:55| Niwa We did get a lot of support from the community, especially chefs and owners that also feared this lady because, you know, at the time she could make or break your restaurant. She' ; s no longer a writer in Dallas. And it' ; s a terrible thing I think, for any restaurant owner or chef to have to feel is that that pressure, you know? I think even in the Michelin level, many chefs are trying to go away from that because that amount of pressure for one person' ; s opinion is just too much. You know, and I know very well that there' ; s tons of restaurants that I love that are not hugely popular and vice versa. I see a lot of restaurants that there' ; s a line out the door and I can' ; t understand why. And I think as a writer, that' ; s kind of their obligation is to just write the simple truth and the facts. There' ; s a lot of writers, you know, that write about the food and because they understand, some of them were chefs or some of them are in the food industry, and they understand the efforts that go behind making these dishes. They understand the cultural aspect of it. And those are great writers to me. And those are the ones that I think, you know, we should continue to read from. But I think also, as our attention span shortens, you know, we tend to focus on just the good and the bad and want that information as quickly as possible. |00:39:35| Brody Right. Less nuance. Are you thinking at any point of expanding or are you involved in other restaurant ventures? |00:39:44| Niwa Yeah, we have still a few plans. We' ; re hoping to open up one more in the DFW area. We' ; re also looking out in other areas as well to expand and even a couple of different concepts. But one concept that we had planned for Plano was kind of rail...derailed because of COVID. So now we' ; re kind of picking up the pieces and going from there. But hopefully in the next couple of years we will have expanded it quite a bit. |00:40:21| Brody Great. When you think about the Asian community in Dallas, if you and especially the sort of dining aspects of that, you know, how would you characterize the the Asian community in Dallas? |00:40:47| Niwa You know, I don' ; t...I can' ; t say as well as many others. I' ; ve only been here for seven years now. And my exposure to the Asian community has been just through the people that I have met. So I definitely am not the one that can give most of the information for...We did the Asian night markets. I think that started in 2018. And our goal for that was to get that exposure out there and especially for restaurants that did not have the budget for a huge PR or marketing agency. Actually, my partner in that was Teresa who had a PR, has a PR agency. So our goal on that was not to make money, it was to get exposure out there. Our first big event was at the Bomb Factory and the purpose in doing that was to get, you know, 14 restaurateurs that we felt need the exposure. They have excellent food. They are the kind of people that were in their shops every day. And that was the point of doing it. Bomb Factory at the time, the owners there were very, very kind and said, " ; Let' ; s just do it. Let' ; s worry about the cost later. If it makes money, we all make money. If not, then we all suffer together." ; So we did it and fortunately did not lose money, did not make much money because that was not our goal. But following that, there was quite a few events that popped up that I think kind of piggybacked off of our success. But it also hurt us from being able to do it continuously because the rest of these funds, I think, were mostly for profit. And so it became harder and harder and we stopped doing it. So my, my, but the support there from the Asian community was amazing. You know, people would come out and support and want to try new foods. So I think there is a strong, strong Asian community here. I think tying it all together is a challenge, you know, but I think it' ; s it' ; s a good it' ; s great. I mean, the Asian Grub page is huge, you know, and they' ; re doing a really good thing for the most part for Dallas, DFW. |00:43:35| Brody Great. In Dallas, in the last few years, during the time that you' ; ve been here, we' ; ve had quite a few weather related issues- the tornado, the ice storm, and then, of course, not weather, but COVID and all the things that came from that. How has your operation and your business been affected by any of those? |00:44:00| Niwa Yes, by all of them. The weather continuously plays a role in general actually. When we have any drop of rain, we lose about 50% of our reservations. But as far as shutdowns, I can' ; t even count the many times now we' ; ve had power outages. We had a couple of roof leaks. Yeah, I think kind of everything has definitely played a role. |00:44:35| Brody And COVID. |00:44:36| Niwa COVID, we were shut down for quite some time. I think a better part of about six months, during which time we tried to pivot and we did a little supermarket there for the Deep Ellum area. We had the space so we could do kind of a social distancing shopping there with some fresh produce and, you know, the essentials, especially at a time when toilet paper and gloves were very difficult to come by. We also had made some masks during that time, and then we also did what we call the shelter boxes. There were Styrofoam boxes that we filled with some of our meats and dishes that were marinated, but you would have to cook at home. Some days was great. Some days we didn' ; t sell many. But, you know, it was, it was a challenge. But, you know, it wasn' ; t the worst thing. You know, we survived it and we built a lot of a team ethic and we finished our patio deck during that time. So. |00:45:49| Brody Right. A lot of the people I' ; ve spoken to have stories of celebrities and sort of memorable events happening in their restaurant. Do you have any stories like that you' ; d like to share? |00:46:05| Niwa Yeah, nothing crazy. We get a lot of celebrities in there. You know, we try not to bother them much because they' ; re there to eat. As far as any crazy events, nothing super crazy, but I guess I' ; ve been in this industry for quite a while. |00:46:33| Brody That' ; s true. How about your relationship with the neighbors? It sounds like you' ; re pretty involved in Deep Ellum and the community there. How would you characterize how that' ; s been? |00:46:49| Niwa Yeah, Deep Ellum' ; s a great neighborhood. Everyone watches out for each other for the most part. There' ; s always someone who' ; s upset with someone, but it' ; s kind of neighborly. We you know, it' ; s difficult to stay up, keep up with everything because there' ; s just so much happening in Deep Ellum. And it' ; s a lot of what happens in Deep Ellum are not at the same time frames as us. And also we' ; re kind of down at the end of the street. So we usually hear the news last. But Deep Ellum' ; s been a really great neighborhood for the most part. |00:47:29| Brody That' ; s great. So as we wind this interview down, I just want to ask you, are there any lessons or reflections that you' ; d like to share? |00:47:41| Niwa Oh. I mean I guess as lessons maybe for all of us is to just be better towards each other. You know, I think there' ; s a lot of criticism towards everyone in the industry. And naturally it' ; s, could be on a competitive level in some aspect and some of it because of what we talked about, the authenticity and someone' ; s offended. But I think the bottom line is it comes down to food and people just trying to make a living. So, you know, I think. I think chefs, especially and restaurateurs and people who are working twelve, fourteen, sixteen hours a day, five, six, seven days a week, I think there needs to be a better appreciation towards each other. And that and, you know, we do a service industry on Monday nights and admittedly it' ; s kind of swayed away from its original purpose. Original purpose was for those people who, you know, are working six days a week, mostly, usually off on Mondays. You know, we offer a huge discount for them to come in and dine on Mondays. But I wish there was a little bit more of that and I wish there was a little bit more of, you know, that professional courtesy towards each other. |00:49:13| Brody Yeah, that would be nice. So I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your memories and your experiences. Is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you that you' ; d like to add to this interview? |00:49:28| Niwa No. No. Well, thank you for taking the time. |00:49:30| Brody Fantastic. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate it. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Jimmy Niwa, June 9, 2022
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2021oh002_di_016
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Japanese
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2022-06-09
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Oral History
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Betsy Brody
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Daisy Chuskul
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5.4 Interview with Daisy Chuskul, June 6, 2022 2021oh002_di_015 01:20:57 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Thai Daisy Chuskul Betsy Brody m4a oh_dig_audio_chuskul_daisy20220606.m4a 1:|16(11)|31(10)|49(13)|62(12)|81(2)|94(6)|110(12)|121(5)|135(1)|148(3)|160(8)|172(14)|183(5)|194(16)|207(9)|216(3)|225(3)|238(9)|249(4)|260(12)|276(12)|285(10)|296(2)|313(3)|323(5)|334(14)|343(8)|354(3)|363(1)|378(1)|389(12)|402(4)|418(5)|427(4)|446(5)|458(2)|465(9)|476(9)|487(3)|494(15)|508(11)|520(3)|532(3)|546(13)|558(3)|566(1)|573(9)|581(10)|593(8)|610(11)|619(1)|629(10)|638(8)|653(5)|662(10)|672(6)|682(14)|691(6)|704(6)|712(11)|721(8)|737(8)|749(7)|761(7)|771(1)|778(8)|794(5)|800(11)|812(3)|822(8)|830(9)|839(12)|848(1)|867(3)|881(10)|887(6)|894(14)|903(1)|911(4)|918(15) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/163115 Aviary audio 4 Introduction Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Thai ; Texas--History 32 Chuskul family's arrival in Dallas Baltimore ; Dallas ; doctor ; Thai ; Thailand 183 Chuskul family opens Bangkok Inn Asian restaurant ; Bangkok Inn ; customers ; Dallas ; East Dallas ; family run restaurant ; food ; landlord ; line ; lines ; mom and pop ; own ; Pad Thai ; rent ; restaurant reviews ; University of North Texas 32.81989973850803, -96.76241463326922 17 http://www.bangkokinndallas.com/ 496 Chuskul describes her mother's Pad Thai customers ; family run restaurant ; generation ; neighborhood ; night market ; Pad Thai ; Ratburi ; recipes ; social media ; Thailand 776 Thai hospitality family run restaurant ; food ; hospitality 866 Customer profile cultures ; neigborhood ; neighbors ; regulars 950 Approach to the menu/ Thoughts about " ; authenticity" ; approachable ; authentic ; authenticity ; brand ; culture ; customers ; educate ; education ; food ; fusion ; generation ; home cooking ; innovation ; menu ; palae ; rebrand ; regulars ; sauce ; stir fry ; street food ; Thai food ; vegetables ; western palate 1245 Racism and discrimination/ Thai community in Dallas competition ; discrimination ; racism ; Thai community 1430 Suppliers and sourcing ingredients for Bangkok Inn Asian grocery ; groceries ; Hong Kong Market ; sourcing ; Southern Star ; supermarket ; suppliers ; Thai Oriental 1624 Opening a second location of Bangkok Inn Bangkok Inn ; expansion ; growth ; Italian ; landlord ; rent 1797 Relationship with neighbors and neighborhood laundromat ; neigborhood ; neighbors 2038 Bestsellers and recognition of Bangkok Inn Asian food landscape ; bestsellers ; Dallas ; Dallas Observer ; food landscape ; hole in the wall ; innovation ; innovative ; menu ; mom and pop ; Pad Thai ; peanu chicken ; peanut sauce ; recipes ; restaurant reviews ; reviews ; social media ; Thai ; Thai food 2255 Distinguishing characteristics of a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant/Impact of social media Asian Grub in DFDub ; brand ; branding ; food ; hole in the wall ; marketing ; mom and pop ; photography ; photoraphy ; restaurant reviews ; reviews ; social media ; Yelp 2634 Balancing maintaining legacy and innovation for the future brunch ; BYOB ; expand ; family run restaurant ; fish sauce ; growth ; innovation ; laab ; legacy ; palate ; recipes ; Thai brunch ; Thai flavors ; tradition ; western palate 3221 Decision to be a BYOB restaurant alcohol ; BYOB ; family run restaurant ; liquor ; mom and pop ; neighborhood ; tradition ; wine 3371 Studying Hospitality at the University of North Texas Asian restaurant ; business ; hospitality ; legacy ; mom and pop ; POS system ; restaurant ; University of North Texas 3828 Taking over a family run restaurant business ; community ; family run restaurant 3990 Connections the the Thai community connect ; connection ; culture ; internet ; relationship ; social media ; Thai ; Thai community 4144 Impact of COVID and ice storm on Bangkok Inn COVID ; ice storm ; pandemic ; takeout 4462 Food and culture authentic ; authenticity ; culture ; family ; food ; home cooking ; recipes ; technique ; Thai ; Thai flavors |00:00:04| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is June 6, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time as Daisy Chuskul. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture, and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Hi, Daisy. Thank you for joining me today. |00:00:30| Chuskul Hi. Thanks for having me. |00:00:32| Brody To start out with, why don' ; t you tell me where and when you were born? |00:00:37| Chuskul So I was born in Greenville, Texas, but my parents lived in Dallas at the time. I was born November 17th, 1989. And the reason I was born in Greenville was because there' ; s a Thai doctor who births a lot of the Asian or the Thai families in the area. So we all, I guess, trek over there to have him deliver our babies. So, yes, but I' ; m a Dallas native. |00:01:13| Brody So your parents were Thai? |00:01:16| Chuskul Mm hmm. |00:01:17| Brody Tell me about what brought them to Texas. |00:01:19| Chuskul So my mom was studying nursing for the Red Cross, and they brought nurses over to the U.S. and that' ; s how she came in. My dad' ; s history is like a little fuzzy. I think he just, you know, wanted to come to America to work. And so he made his way here and was working as a cab driver in Baltimore, Maryland. And that' ; s where both of my parents met in Baltimore. |00:01:51| Brody Great. And what brought them to Texas? |00:01:55| Chuskul I think they had friends here and they probably were more used to the climate in Texas compared to Baltimore. So I think, yeah, the weather and maybe some opportunities and friends. |00:02:09| Brody You mentioned the doctor and the friends. Was there a large Thai community to your knowledge at that time when they came? |00:02:19| Chuskul I' ; m not, I' ; m not really sure, but I know that the doctor is one of my parents' ; first friends, and they have been good friends for, you know, all these years and... |00:02:32| Brody When, do you know what year they came to Texas? |00:02:36| Chuskul So we opened our restaurant in 1982 and I think they came to the U.S. maybe around 76 or 77 and got married, I think, in 78 and had my sister. She was born in 1980 and she was born in Maryland. So I think shortly after she was born, they came to Texas. |00:03:03| Brody Tell me about the restaurant. |00:03:06| Chuskul Yeah. So we' ; re a family run restaurant in East Dallas called Bangkok Inn. We' ; ve been open for- this is our 40th year. And my parents ran the restaurant all that time until about 2012. That' ; s when I graduated from the University of North Texas, and I studied hospitality management there. And so I already had the idea that I would come after I graduated and start taking over with my older brother and sister. So we started running the restaurant back in 2012. |00:03:46| Brody Had your parents ever done anything like a restaurant before, any food related businesses? |00:03:54| Chuskul No, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think so. And I haven' ; t personally heard this story, so I' ; m not, I' ; m a little bit skeptical of it, but this is the narrative that my brother tells. And what he remembers is that my parents met at a mutual friend' ; s wedding in Baltimore, and my mom had made lots of food and kind of catered that wedding. So he ate the food and was like, " ; Who made this? I have to meet her." ; And that' ; s when the suiting began. So. |00:04:24| Brody Wow, that' ; s a great story. |00:04:25| Chuskul I know. I was like and it' ; s a great story. I don' ; t know if I believe it, but that' ; s what we' ; re sticking with. |00:04:33| Brody So still, though, what possessed them to open a restaurant? |00:04:37| Chuskul I think that' ; s just what a lot of Thai people that came here, it was just something that there wasn' ; t any Thai restaurants here at that time. I think we might be the oldest or one of the oldest still running from that time period. And so I think they just saw that there is an opportunity, a lack in the market and something that they could do. |00:05:06| Brody Do you know much about sort of the nuts and bolts of of how they got the restaurant off the ground? |00:05:12| Chuskul No, I' ; m very surprised. So there' ; s quite an age gap between me and my parents. So they had me when they were 45. And so I' ; m always so curious about like what their twenties and thirties even looked like and how they navigated even opening the restaurant. Like running it now, there' ; s all these like technical permits and stuff and things I have to figure out and I' ; m like from here. So it' ; s difficult for me. So it must be, must have been like a community effort of friends and helping each other out. |00:05:52| Brody Did they buy the property or the building or... |00:05:56| Chuskul I think they were renting it for a while, but the owners were ready to sell at some point and sold it to my parents. So we owned, we own that space and property. We don' ; t own the whole little shopping center corner, but we just own that little pocket. |00:06:17| Brody Where is the restaurant? |00:06:19| Chuskul So it' ; s, the address is 6033 Oram Street, Dallas, Texas 75206. So it' ; s in the East Dallas Lakewood area. It' ; s very close to, it' ; s kind of like adjacent to Lower Greenville or Lowest Greenville. |00:06:42| Brody Do you remember, or in your family are there stories of sort of the as the restaurant was getting off its feet and the growth or you know, who the customers were and what that felt like? |00:06:54| Chuskul Yeah. So we have a lot of customers that have been eating at our restaurant for, you know, decades. And it used to be only a portion. Our restaurant was only a portion of what we have now. And I' ; ve heard stories of people...I think we only had maybe six or seven tables. So we would have people line, line up in the parking lot, waiting to eat and would like bring coolers and stuff and kind of like tailgate our parking lot, wanting to try a probably my mom' ; s Pad Thai. And I know there was like an early article in the, I think it was a Dallas Chronicle, and they did a profile on my mom and that was probably like really what kept things buzzing at that time, I think. |00:07:53| Brody Do you remember what the article featured? |00:07:57| Chuskul I think it was just showcasing like South Asian, Southeast Asian cuisine in Dallas. And so they had a picture and a little blurb of her. And I think we have it somewhere. So if I can find it, I' ; ll send it to you. |00:08:14| Brody Thank you. So how did your mom learn to cook? Was she... |00:08:21| Chuskul Yeah. So this is...She was the oldest of maybe nine siblings. I' ; m like, I don' ; t have all the accuracies, but she used to tell me all the time how she' ; d have to wake up at the crack of dawn and travel to the market and get ingredients to help cook all of her siblings like little probably, like sort of similar to like a bento box, like lunches for the day. And she just did that every day. And I think Pad Thai was her mom' ; s favorite. And so she would go to the night market and kind of watch how they were making Pad Thai. And she knew the most popular one was the one to look for. And so she would spy at like their trash and see which trash had the most eggshells because like at the night market, they would crack an egg for each order. And so the one that had the most eggshells like was, had the best Pad Thai. So she just would watch and study. |00:09:34| Brody That' ; s really clever and was this in Bangkok? |00:09:39| Chuskul So she was from a small town called Rat Buri. I think that' ; s right, yeah. |00:09:51| Brody What was your what would tell me your mom and dad' ; s names again? |00:09:53| Chuskul Oh, yeah. So my mom is named Patcharee. She would go by Pat or Noi, and my dad is named Threechok and he would go by June like the month. |00:10:07| Brody Great. So describe the Pad Thai that your mom would cook. |00:10:13| Chuskul Yeah. So our Pad Thai just is...The sauce is based on like a tamarind reduction. And so we would like either use a tamarind mash or like, now what I do is, like, fresh tamarinds, and we soak until the meat breaks down of that fruit and and reduce that into a sauce. And so that' ; s like a brown color, right? And so our Pad Thai is always a lot lighter than what I' ; ve seen at other restaurants that add a red coloring, either like through paprika or even maybe like a food coloring. But it' ; s funny that that' ; s what people think of Pad Thai and versus the Pad Thai I grew up with. So I know it' ; s very good. There' ; s a mixture of the tamarind sauce and fish sauce and some vinegar for acidity. It has the egg and some red and green onion, bean sprout, and crushed peanut. |00:11:20| Brody It sounds wonderful. So you mentioned that you have customers that have been coming for about forty years and how it used to be with people lining up. How did your parents, other than, you know, when they were featured in that article, how did they reach their clientele? |00:11:40| Chuskul Yeah, I think a lot of it was just word of mouth. And so I think that' ; s what sustained us for so many years, because even now I' ; m just starting to, everything has changed with like social media, but we didn' ; t have that base before. So I think we were just really like a neighborhood restaurant. We' ; re in Lakewood and I think the community there is really open to trying like new foods. And it was something affordable and quick and different that they couldn' ; t cook at home. And so it was just like an easy weeknight pick up for them. But it' ; s been really fun to see generally, generationally our clientele who have watched me grow up and have and I' ; ve watched their families grow up and now their kids eat here and they bring their kids. And so I see multiple generations coming through the restaurant. And I think probably one of the biggest draws also was just my mom. She was just so hospitable and everyone called her " ; Mom" ; and just wanted to be around her and spend time with her. And I think that' ; s why they enjoyed coming to the restaurant. |00:12:56| Brody Yeah, a lot of people that I have been talking to for this project talk about their philosophy of hospitality. What would you say your mom' ; s and dad' ; s philosophy of hospitality was in those days of setting up and starting the restaurant? And then for you, what does hospitality mean? |00:13:16| Chuskul Yeah, I think. Hospitality and and food are like...That' ; s just immediately what we are ingrained to think about. And. I was watching. Sometimes I follow some Thai language instructors on Instagram, and one tip that they gave was, one teacher gave was, if you want to sound like a native, you have to learn this phrase. And it' ; s " ; kin khao reu yang" ; like, " ; have you eaten?" ; And that' ; s how people greet each other. And it' ; s just like making sure that, you know, just entered someone' ; s heart, through their stomach and make sure they' ; re fed and that warmth and care that' ; s taken through food. So, I think with the restaurant is, we wanted to create an atmosphere that' ; s like, come into our home and we' ; re going to feed you. |00:14:24| Brody That' ; s really nice. I' ; m sure your customers appreciated that and that' ; s why they lined up and kept coming back. Speaking of your customers, is there a typical profile of your Bangkok Inn customers or how would you describe them? |00:14:45| Chuskul Yeah. I think a lot are families and some older customers that still enjoy coming. So yeah, I feel like we have kind of more of an older clientele and just like that neighborhood family spot. And then I guess there are younger people wholive in that area and work and that come too. I was like, I don' ; t know if this is...They' ; re mostly white. So we live in, I guess in that area it' ; s not as ethnically diverse. And we' ; ve talked about because we live in Richardson and there' ; s a lot of different cultures around here, but I think closer to where the restaurant is more of a white clientele. |00:15:51| Brody Well, that makes me think based on who your customers are, do you approach the menu in a different way or... |00:16:02| Chuskul Right. Yeah. So I think that the menu that we' ; ve had for many years, it' ; s pretty accessible and I was having a conversation with someone earlier talking about how a lot of the Asian cuisine seems more centered on Cantonese or doing the basic stir fry stuff when there' ; s so many other kind of more interesting and fun dishes. And it made me think about, " ; Oh, is our menu not authentic? Or, what does that mean?" ; And I think yes and no. So obviously, my parents were one of the first restaurants, Thai restaurants in the area, so I think they did want to create something that was going to be like palatable for people trying Thai food for the first time. And but then when I think about the stir fries and, the base and sauce that we use for that, that was just such a staple for them in my home. That' ; s just a very home cooking, we' ; re going to do some veggies and meat or whatever and have this kind of standard sauce. So it feels very authentic in that way because it' ; s like, well, this is literally what my parents were eating when, you know, they were at home or off work. |00:17:34| Brody Yeah, I mean, the concept of authenticity is a little bit tricky. It' ; s a slippery concept, right? What does what does that mean when we' ; re talking about food from other cultures? |00:17:47| Chuskul Yeah. Yeah. Because I think everyone' ; s wanting to try some of the more like street foods or some things that might have been more time consuming. But what I' ; ve observed, you know, from my family and family friends, it' ; s going to...what they have at their table is pretty basic. You know, they' ; re not makingelaborate things all the time. Who has the time? So it' ; s been interesting thought to...How do I want? What direction do I want to go in expanding and exploring those those kinds of dishes that people can' ; t find? You know, but then. What' ; s going to be profitable or make sense for me with how I organize my kitchen and how time consuming certain dishes are that people are wanting to explore. |00:18:50| Brody Right. Yeah. That sounds like for a lot of people who own restaurants, it' ; s a balance of trying to put things on the menu that are, as you said, accessible, that people will order, because after all, it is a business. But on the other hand, education piece of it, a lot of people have said in putting different things on the menu, so people have a chance to try them. |00:19:17| Chuskul Yeah. Yeah. And it' ; s also tough with, you know, we' ; ve been running for forty, we have forty years of clientele that are used to and still love what we do and not trying to change things too much and like, " ; Okay, I' ; m going to rebrand into this like really modern fusiony thing" ; is like, " ; No, I don' ; t want that." ; So yeah, trying to straddle that line because I think I' ; m interested to explore, especially now that my parents have passed. And so it' ; s kind of been a mission for me to dive even deeper into the cuisine and kind of unearth these recipes that maybe that I' ; ve never...I didn' ; t get a chance to learn. I only had maybe once in my childhood or like at a party that, you know, my family friends are holding or something of that nature. And I even have resistance from my siblings because they' ; re like, " ; Well, let' ; s not change. Everyone' ; s used to this, let' ; s not change this too much." ; But I don' ; t think...I think now that we' ; re getting older and having more autonomy, it' ; s like we can do whatever we want. But, yeah, let' ; s be smart about it. |00:20:35| Brody Right. Especially because, you know, as you said, you' ; ve got the existing customer base that that keeps coming back for what they' ; re coming back for. |00:20:43| Chuskul Right. Yeah. |00:20:46| Brody I' ; m just wondering, do you know if your parents or or yourself experienced any any discrimination or racism in the course of running the restaurant? |00:20:58| Chuskul Yeah, I think it was especially hard for my parents at that time. I don' ; t know any...I mean, I' ; m sure I' ; ve heard specific stories from when I was younger. But overall, I just felt there was a lot of distrust, especially on my dad' ; s end. He was always like, don' ; t trust anybody. Do everything on your own. And as I' ; ve grown older to think about it, I' ; m wondering if I mean, that must have come from somewhere, right? And so he he must have had to experience discrimination and and getting, I don' ; t know. Just like having hate, you know, towards him. I remember growing up younger and one time he had an argument with someone in the parking lot. And I don' ; t know, I think especially at that time, people weren' ; t as open to other cultures in general. So, yeah, I think he felt a definite mistrust of a lot of people. |00:22:23| Brody Since the time that your parents came to Dallas and started the restaurant, the Thai community certainly and the Asian community in general have grown dramatically as there started to be more and more Asians in Dallas. And also, as you know, people started to explore eating food from other countries. Did you, do you recall anything about competition, other restaurants, Thai restaurants starting and discussions of that within your family? |00:22:56| Chuskul I think it was just kind of understood. I think everybody was, all the probably first families that were coming into the area, that was what they were doing. So I think that competition was just... I mean, I don' ; t know, if it was ingrained, but it was just...They were used to it. So it wasn' ; t. It didn' ; t feel very competitive. It was just like, okay, this family has this restaurant, this family has this, everybody has a restaurant. |00:23:26| Brody Did those families all become sort of a community in and of themselves, the restaurant families? |00:23:32| Chuskul You know, maybe that' ; s where one of, most of the competition came from because, yeah, there wasn' ; t that much of a interconnected " ; let' ; s help each other out." ; It' ; s like, okay, we' ; re all doing the same thing. But it was pretty isolated. |00:23:50| Brody Was it hard to get food, the you know, the raw materials for the restaurant? |00:23:57| Chuskul I mean, for me, now it' ; s not. Gosh, yeah. That' ; s such a good question. I wonder how they managed that. At the very beginning. But for me and the time I' ; ve grown up, we' ; ve always been in very close proximity to Hong Kong Market. So we always run. Are there just, wow, this is opening up all these memories of going to all these small, you know, little Thai grocers and some of them are...don' ; t exist anymore. But yeah, that' ; s very interesting. I guess at the same time, and I know that part of your project, you' ; re interviewing Asian grocers as well, but yeah, there were a bunch of smaller shops that just only did mainly Thai that my parents went to. But, you know, in the later years, now we have like bigger Asian supermarkets. So now I do more of my inventory at like Hong Kong Market and like we do have one small vendor. His place is called Thai Oriental and he' ; s right off of Lower Greenville, off Sears and Greenville. And he' ; s kind of one of the last independent, like groces that we still use, now that I think about it. |00:25:38| Brody Because they' ; re the larger supermarkets? |00:25:40| Chuskul So yeah yeah. So we go... I' ; ll just to go ahead and tell y' ; all all my places, right? So I' ; ll go to Hong Kong Market and Restaurant Depot and then we' ; ll get a shipment from Southern Star, which is like a bigger Asian food distributor. And then I' ; ll also still get stuff from Thai Oriental. And it' ; s funny because I don' ; t even know if that' ; s the most economical choice. I mean, I think it' ; s fine. I don' ; t think I' ; m really losing money or having to pay so much more. Still being in business with I think his name is Roy. His Thai name or I forgot his Thai name. But yeah, he' ; s just been in business with my family for so long that it never occurred to me not to buy from him, even if it' ; s kind of a small order. And he really appreciates it and he still has his connections with like a lot of Thai restaurants around in the areas and all over, but. Does that answer your question? What was the question, now? |00:26:58| Brody Those relationships are important and, you know, being able to get what you need. That' ; s really interesting. Do you know of any challenges that your family faced in in running the restaurant over the years? |00:27:15| Chuskul Let' ; s see. Well, we did have two locations and we had a bigger, much bigger location more north on Greenville, closer to Park Lane. And that was a fun restaurant. I remember being a kid and playing around. We had a walk in cooler and my brother and I would play in there. And yeah, it was. It was huge. I wonder, I don' ; t even know what the max capacity was, but at some point I think the rent got so high that we lost that restaurant. But before that happened, my dad, and I was very young when all of this happened. My dad decided to do a different concept. And he changed the restaurant into an Italian concept because he really loved Italian food. And he had an old friend in Baltimore who just cooked a lot of Italian cuisine, an Italian chef, I guess. And he brought him over and they opened the rest...or they changed the restaurant into Italian concept. And that was not well-received. I think a lot of people could see like, why are these Asian people now serving, you know, spaghetti and stuff? And so that didn' ; t go well. And I know my parents had to file for bankruptcy, but I also was so young that I don' ; t know how all that went. Gosh, I wonder what year that was. But probably somewhere in the mid-nineties. And so now we just still only have our original first location. |00:29:17| Brody When did this second location come into being? |00:29:21| Chuskul Yeah. I don' ; t know. I wonder if it was. Maybe. I don' ; t know. That' ; s a good question because I was like, it could have been just a couple of years after they opened the first one. |00:29:36| Brody And that was that location that he tried, the Italian? |00:29:40| Chuskul The bigger, the bigger, the bigger restaurant. Yeah. So that' ; s what we would call it. When it was Ran Hiy and Ran Lek and so Ran Hiy is..." ; Hiy" ; is big in Thai. So the big restaurant or Ran Lek, like the little restaurant. |00:29:57| Brody In either location. Did you have neighbors, other restaurants or other stores that you had relationships with? |00:30:06| Chuskul Ran Lek, the little original spot, the one I run, there was a laundromat on at the other end of the block. So where the restaurant sits is in like a little, I almost don' ; t want to call it a shopping center because it' ; s so small, but it' ; s kind of, you know, like it has a shared parking lot with a few other businesses. So on the corner there' ; s a garden shop or a dentist that' ; s been there, I guess, for as long as I remember. I wonder if they pre-date us even. And then there was a laundromat and in between the so the business in the space between our restaurant and the laundromat has changed over the years. I think it was a hair salon when I was young and then a yoga studio or an art consignment place and a yoga studio. And now it' ; s like a DIY craft studio. But yeah, it was...But the laundromat in particular was the one that I had the most connection to. And there was this black woman who managed it named Peaches, and she adored me and I adored her. And I guess would kind of babysit me while my mom was working and I remember sitting, she would have a chair outside and I would sit like on her lap and she would like sing hymns to me. And I was like, " ; Aunt Peaches," ; like. |00:31:46| Brody That' ; s a great story. |00:31:46| Chuskul And that laundromat in particular, I think, was just like a staple for the neighborhood. When they closed down, it was quite a loss because a lot of people were doing their laundry there and there' ; s a lot of smaller apartments and older apartments and duplexes that I guess didn' ; t have that and, you know, washer and dryer included. So I think that really tied in to like kind of our community neighborhood vibe of like, " ; Oh, this is where I' ; m going to do my laundry and then I' ; ll eat or pick up food from the Thai restaurant." ; And it' ; s just part of their everyday regular lifestyle. |00:32:35| Brody Right. It sounds like the restaurant was just woven into the fabric of that neighborhood. |00:32:42| Chuskul Right. Yeah. |00:32:44| Brody That' ; s that' ; s really nice. So... |00:32:48| Chuskul And then for the bigger restaurant, it was kind of in a little bit of a funky little business shopping center. And there' ; s like a a quite a steep hill that you go down and the main businesses that I knew that were there was our restaurant and then across it was a hamburger place called Joe Willy' ; s. And I would...Me and my brother would always go across the street and I think they had a couple of arcade games. So we would play games and get some money from my parents. You know, a couple of dollars to play games. I think my brother was tricking me and using my money and I was only operating the computer one. But so then whenever he would die, he' ; s like, " ; You died, put in your quarters." ; But I was too young to recognize I wasn' ; t actually controlling the other character. |00:33:55| Brody Very tricky of your brother. Your brother and sister and you are now together running the restaurant. |00:34:02| Chuskul Yeah. So right now at current it' ; s just me and my sister, but, yeah, my brother just stepped away about a year or two ago. But yeah, so it' ; s me and my sister and we have one cook, so we run a very tight and small ship. |00:34:23| Brody Are you using the same recipes and basically the same menu as your parents used? |00:34:29| Chuskul Yeah. Yeah. |00:34:30| Brody Yeah. What are the biggest sellers? |00:34:34| Chuskul Yeah, I think our Pad Thai is really popular. I think there' ; s definitely a cult following behind our peanut chicken. So the peanut sauce that my parents or mom created tastes very unique and different from peanut sauces I' ; ve had anywhere else. And yeah, there' ; s a big following. |00:35:04| Brody That' ; s great. Earlier you talked about that one article that featured your mom kind of early on. Over the years, I' ; m sure there have been other reviews and things like that. What are your thoughts about the, you know, professional restaurant reviewers and sort of the impact on your restaurant when when you get reviewed? |00:35:28| Chuskul Yeah. So, I mean, we' ; ve been a couple of times awarded through The Dallas Observer when they did, do their big food and entertainment " ; best of" ; of the year. And. Yeah. We' ; ll get things here and there. But I think right now some of the more innovative, buzzy or on trend are getting a lot of the attention as opposed to, you know, some of the hole in the wall. I mean, I think the, what am I thinking of? Just the whole scene has changed now. And so for these smaller, " ; mom and pop," ; they' ; re kind of that' ; s become standard. Like they' ; re used to it now and they' ; re wanting to expand further from that. And so I think from the start of the restaurant, when there was only like three. My parents, we' ; re running one of three Thai restaurants, you know, in Dallas, and now there' ; s countless restaurants. And who' ; s doing something to actually stand out and be above the crowd. And when I tell people that I run a Thai restaurant, the most frequent answer I hear is " ; Thai is my favorite food." ; When, you know, when my parents opened, people didn' ; t know about Thai food. So yeah, I don' ; t know. It' ; s interesting to see going forward how I' ; m going to kind of pivot things in a way that will have us stand out. But I' ; m really thankful for the community and support that we have had for all these decades. |00:37:33| Brody Yeah, for sure. And, that' ; s an interesting point that you' ; re making about, you know, as there are more and more Thai restaurants or, you know, Asian restaurants in general, the ways that people try to differentiate themselves and you, you know, used the phrase " ; hole in the wall" ; and " ; mom and pop." ; What do you see as the sort of distinguishing characteristic of a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant? You know what, what does a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant need to do or have to do to be successful? |00:38:08| Chuskul Like now in this day and age? Yeah, I think a lot of it is about visibility and social media, and that' ; s something I' ; m very new to approaching even, you know, being 32. Like I' ; m still young and I grew up with all of that stuff. But I feel like I' ; m a little bit of a late adopter. I didn' ; t get a smartphone until, I think, 2017, which I' ; m glad I did, because I could tell it was impeding me into operating normal business and just getting around in the world without a smartphone. But yeah, a lot of my friends were surprised. I was kind of known to be the friend that was still using a flip phone or a dumb phone. So, yeah, I think social media is, is huge now and we talked a little bit before the interview about the Facebook group, the D- GrubHub, DFW, Asian, Asian Grub-DFDub, something like that. And it' ; s a huge group. And I feel like that' ; s really if you can make it on that Facebook group, you' ; ll do well because people are traveling all over just to try these recommendations. And I even, you know, got a pretty big buzz from just doing one post for my mom' ; s 75th birthday. We just had a little I just told them about the restaurant and my mom and that she was turning 75 and if you come by and wish her happy birthday, you could get a little discount or something. Birthday discount. And yeah, that got shared I think 700, 800 times or had that much interaction. |00:40:20| Brody Did that translate into lots of people coming? |00:40:22| Chuskul Oh, yeah. It was definitely a busy week. |00:40:26| Brody That' ; s great. So that makes me think about not the professional reviewers, but sort of the social media side of restaurant critique. |00:40:35| Chuskul Yeah, the branding and all that stuff. I even see now when I post on our Instagram, the ones that I post myself get a lot more engagement than just a picture of my food. So people want to, they want to eat stories. They want to, you know, have a full experience and know the story behind the food. |00:41:07| Brody Sure. And what about like Yelp and those types of review sites? Do those impact you and your operations? |00:41:17| Chuskul Yeah, sure. And I think luckily for us, just being so longstanding, we have quite a bit reviews on Google and Yelp and those kind of platforms. And I think that just comes from our huge client base and just been operating for so long. So I' ; m thankful for that because I don' ; t know how if I was starting fresh today, how I' ; d have to build all those reviews and get that kind of good rank and standing. |00:41:55| Brody That' ; s a, I mean, an entirely different enterprise than just making delicious food and serving it. |00:42:01| Chuskul Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people, I mean, it' ; s become a full time job. People will hire companies. We even did for a little bit. I think there' ; s Main Street Hub. They will manage all of the reviews and all of those different platforms and create content for you. And so that was fun. And honestly, a lot of customers enjoyed it. But I think times were tough at that particular time, and that was an expense that we ended up cutting. And it was fun content, but it was also kind of, I don' ; t know, it wasn' ; t coming from me. And so some of it felt like very disingenuous. I mean, I remember one time they posted some kind of graphic or meme or whatever about like " ; an egg roll a day will.." ; something, you know, whatever, something cheesy like that. And it seemed kind of generic, you know. But I mean, any kind of engagement, if you' ; re catching someone' ; s eye, that' ; s fine, you know? So I think it was effective inand some way, but. |00:43:22| Brody I think a lot of what you' ; re saying, it seems like it keeps coming back to that sort of feeling of authenticity. Right? You know, you mentioned that the the look of your mom' ; s Pad Thai is, you know, is different than what a lot of other restaurants are serving because of the way that it' ; s made. You mentioned that when you post something yourself, you know that that gets a lot more engagement. |00:43:45| Chuskul Yeah. Like people like seeing a selfie over a whole room, just, you know, a lonely plate of food. |00:43:54| Brody So how do you, as a restaurant owner, how are you going to, going forward, sort of try to strike that balance of maintaining the authenticity of the restaurant that you' ; re, that you' ; re carrying on the legacy of and also kind of moving into the future. |00:44:15| Chuskul Yeah, I mean, that' ; s a big and very new challenge for me, and I think I was feeling kind of held back with my parents and even some of my siblings' ; attitudes towards the restaurant. And I think my brother was also wanting to like expand, but we weren' ; t always on the same page about how to do that and, with my parents both passed now and my mom recently passed this past December and for the last about eight years I had been a caregiver and caring for her. She had Alzheimer' ; s, and that was another full time job I was doing with running the restaurant. So I think for a lot of those years, I was just kind of like, let' ; s just keep things going, status quo. But now that I' ; ve been relieved of my caregiving duties, I' ; m starting to think about how to creatively expand. And I think in 2020, my friends and I held a Thai brunch that was quite successful. And we did a buffet style brunch. We' ; re a BYOB restaurant, so everybody could bring their own champagne or beverage of choice. But I made...I brought some, like, orange juice, and I made some tamarind juice so people could do tamarind mimosas. And the buffet consisted of some menu items, but then a couple of dishes that I came up with myself. I did a laab omelet. So laab is like that Thai salad that has the fish sauce and citrus and rice powder. And I saw a video that, like, you could make laab with a egg omelet, like you do a solid omelet scramble and cut it into squares, and then you can toss it in the laab dressing and sauce and do fresh herbs, mint and basil and cilantro. And it really brightens up that. And so I wanted to take a, do a take of that with egg and potato because I thought a fried potato kind of goes well with the fish sauce and vinegar where the citrus acidity. It was quite good. That' ; s probably one of the best things I' ; ve come up with in a while. But, yeah, that was fun to showcase. And then I did these...And this one' ; s a fun story there. I forget the...I never knew what the name was. I looked it up and I guess it' ; s translated into like " ; son in law eggs." ; But they' ; re these fried, hard boiled eggs that have a tamarind based sauce over them, and they' ; re great. And that was one of my favorite things that, my parents would rarely make when I was young and it wasn' ; t on the menu or anything. So I had to kind of reverse engineer it in my memory. And I was like, " ; What do I remember how she made that?" ; And I think I also used the knowledge of how they just make the food at the restaurant, too. Like my dad would always say, " ; You want your food to have three-a balance of three components, sweet, salty and savory. And so using that mindset, I was like, " ; Okay, I think I know what' ; s in the sauce." ; |00:48:41| Brody Figured it out. |00:48:41| Chuskul And figured it out. Yeah. So that was a fun thing to eat. And I' ; ve been thinking about doing that one maybe on a special or regular because a lot of my friends are fans of those eggs. |00:48:57| Brody Sounds great. And that really reminds me some of the people that I' ; ve interviewed, again, you know, started talking about creating a menu, have talked about, you know, and I mentioned this earlier, that balance of trying to push people' ; s palates forward and introduce new things while also keeping the familiar and the accessible... |00:49:18| Chuskul Mm hmm. |00:49:18| Brody On the menu. And it sounds like some of these recipes that you' ; re reverse engineering from your childhood are an attempt to do just that. If you were thinking about how to, you know, describe Thai food and sort of the essence or the spirit of Thai food as as you serve it at your restaurant, what would you what would you say to people? |00:49:47| Chuskul Yeah. I mean, I feel like what I said earlier, that' ; s kind of the philosophy, the balance of the the sweet and salty and savory. And so there' ; s going to be a sweet, like just even just sugar or tamarind. And then...wait, no! I' ; m misquoting this and I was like, I knew the third one sounded off and it' ; s sweet, salty and sour. I was like, " ; Okay, sorry about that, everybody. And sorry about that, dad." ; Okay. So sweet, salty and sour. So there' ; s always that tamarind or the sugar and then the fish sauce and then either vinegar or lime juice or lemon juice. And so it' ; s kind of a vibrant and bright palette, just trying to have all of those, you know, working together. And that' ; s Thai food, I guess. |00:50:52| Brody And your vision of your own restaurant and sort of the spirit of what you' ; re trying to to provide for your customers. What do you think about that? |00:51:03| Chuskul Yeah, I feel like because. You know, I' ; m first generation Asian-American and, eating out, I' ; m just a big lover of food and all kinds of food. And so what' ; s authentic to me is different. It' ; s kind of going to be a little bit of a hodgepodge. And I know, people' ; s stance on...I don' ; t...I' ; m not really sure what people' ; s stance on fusion these days are, but that' ; s kind of who I am. You know, I' ; m a fusion because I' ; m a Thai woman, first generation in America, so I have both of these cultures that have influenced me throughout the years and, trying to be creative or modernize, what I' ; ve gotten really into now is like watching a lot of YouTube content or chef food creators on YouTube. And it kind of came from a boredom from my food actually, because I, I work all the time and I wouldn' ; t really want to eat what was on the menu, especially if I was making it myself. Like there was some kind of trick when my friend would order it and they' ; re like, " ; Do you want to have some?" ; And when I, whenever I was sharing the food with them, it tasted good, you know? But then when I was just making it for myself or having to choose, it was kind of boring. So I started watching all these YouTube videos of different Thai foods, and I got really into making Korean food. I was like, " ; How do I make...How do I use the great ingredients we have at the restaurant and just make something that tastes kind of fresh or different to me?" ; And maybe I have to buy, like one extra ingredient, but nothing too elaborate. Like I want to try to work with mostly what we have. And so that' ; s what kind of a new, my new menu or new vision is building off of these ideas that I had just because I got bored, you know, eating our food. |00:53:36| Brody Well, necessity is the mother of invention, right? |00:53:39| Chuskul Right. |00:53:41| Brody So you mentioned earlier that the restaurant is BYOB. Is that a conscious choice and or, you know, just sort of because it always was? |00:53:53| Chuskul Right, yeah. So it' ; s a little bit. So we' ; ve been, I don' ; t know if you' ; ve gathered we' ; ve been a little bit stuck in our ways for a while now. And I know just from school that beverage sales will make up at least sixty percent of your profits because it just has a higher, oh, man, I feel like a bad student now. I can' ; t remember the word, but like higher profitability, the cost to buy and the markup on beverage is really what makes a lot of restaurants money. And I' ; ve always kind of disregarded that idea because I liked the idea of us being BYOB. I like the keeping that homey neighborhood spot, like when you bring a bottle and have a good time and and sit and you know have the family I trust make my food. Right? So it' ; s something I, in my heart, I want to keep, but in my brain, I' ; m not really sure if it' ; s, like, the most smart decision financially. So I haven' ; t...I' ; ve had a lot of resistance to explore what that...because friends ask me, like, " ; Why don' ; t you serve beer and wine?" ; And I was like, " ; Oh, you know, you have to pay the liquor license or beer and wine license. And no, that' ; s always so much." ; And kind of just disregarded it without actually like looking at the numbers and seeing, okay, what would be more sustainable for us? So yeah, I don' ; t know. We' ; ll see where that goes, but I do have, like, an emotional connection to being BYOB, for sure. |00:55:53| Brody Yeah, I' ; ve heard that from several people that sort of the the decision or choice to stay BYOB is as important to the customer experience and sort of the energy in the restaurant itself. And that' ; s super interesting. You mentioned school. So you studied at UNT. Tell me about that and how that studying hospitality has impacted your running of the restaurant. |00:56:24| Chuskul Yeah, so I think I enjoyed my degree and I liked that a lot of what I was learning was very tangible and I was actually going to use, practical for what I was doing, but at the same time it felt like I could probably learn this on the job, you know, working at other places. But I got to have like a college experience, so I don' ; t know. It was great. And, you know, at the end of the day, what was funny was, you know, I graduated 2012 and I haveall this, you know, textbook knowledge of how to run a restaurant and how to do a cash flow statement and balance sheet and all these ways to...Depreciating your equipment and all this stuff. And so I' ; m ready to, you know, take over. And I asked my dad, like, " ; Okay, you know, show me your books." ; And he just hands me this binder of just our daily sales. And he was like, " ; All right, there you go." ; And I was like, " ; Well, how do you track expenses or do any of that?" ; And he' ; s just like, " ; I don' ; t know. It' ; s just ingrained and intuitive to me." ; To him, he wasn' ; t actually making spreadsheets or balancing out or tracking all that stuff. And even at that time he was paying for a lot of the food on a credit card. So that really offsets the cash flow when you' ; re just not when you' ; re buying your inventory on a credit card, but only paying a set amount every month. But it really undercuts what you' ; re actually making. So it felt like a big mess, coming into the restaurant. |00:58:32| Brody Did you make changes then at that time or kind of wait until you took over? |00:58:39| Chuskul Yeah. So we had some financial...We made some kind of intense financial decisions at that time, which I' ; m not really sure if they were the best or what, but we took a reverse mortgage on our house to kind of clear out all the debt because I was like, " ; Let' ; s just start from, you know, zero, because I was like, this is this is too funky for me." ; And at that time, we were needing like some major repairs on the roof at the restaurant. So we had a new roof, but ended up doing a full remodel but kind of on the cheaper end. I' ; m not really sure if that was the best decision now looking back, but...yeah, it' ; s been a little bit tough trying to figure out how to keep up with the books and do create my own system. I still have trouble with it. And that whole managerial side without having someone who taught me how to do that. And I just think it' ; s so funny how my dad just he, I think did it so, for so long was just very intuitive about it. Sometimes he would go to behind the counter and we still write... We don' ; t even have, like, a POS system, that' ; s how old school we are. So we' ; re still writing our orders by hand. And so just from the stack of the little ticket or ticket bills or whatever, he would be like, " ; Okay, I think we made X amount of money." ; I was like, " ; Dad, that doesn' ; t mean anything. Like one ticket could be $100. One ticket can be like $5." ; Like the weight of it is not supposed to tell you anything, but he would be pretty accurate. And I mean, he was there at the restaurant seeing, you know, what tables are coming through or whatever, but he would just kind of do that math intuitively, which is not teachable. |01:01:08| Brody That' ; s really funny that he was pretty accurate. |01:01:12| Chuskul I know. Yeah. My brother and I would tease each other about that all the time. |01:01:17| Brody So when you were in school, were there many other students in your classes that had as much sort of on the ground experience as you had growing up in a restaurant? |01:01:28| Chuskul No, not particularly. But I think what I enjoyed about my peers were they were already working. So I think that was fun to have peers learning together and also working in the same industry already. And I think that was quite unique to the hospitality major because usually it' ; s like, oh, you study the degree and then you look for your job later. But it was just like at the same time, we were doing both and they' ; re the ones that were working students. And so I think what a big contrast of a lot of...Because UNT is a big art school, so a lot of my friends were in the art programs or RTVF and they were, had no money. But then when I would go out with my hospitality friends, they' ; re like, " ; Oh, I' ; ll buy a round for everyone." ; |01:02:33| Brody Big contrast. |01:02:34| Chuskul Yeah. But yeah, it was fun to have that real world and book knowledge and being able to share in each other' ; s journeys. I don' ; t think that a lot of my peers ended up pursuing hospitality long term like some of them are realtors. Some of them are maybe teaching. Yeah. I don' ; t know. Or have just found other jobs, so I don' ; t know. I feel like mine' ; s a little more unique in that I actually stayed because it' ; s a hard industry and I get it, you know. And you aren' ; t going...It' ; s not guaranteed that you' ; re going to be making these high six figure income. So yeah, it' ; s definitely grunty, scroungy work for not a lot of payoff, but I love it, so. |01:03:40| Brody That' ; s...And you' ; re carrying on a legacy as well. |01:03:42| Chuskul Yeah yeah. It' ; s feels very close to me in a lot of ways. |01:03:48| Brody So if you were giving advice to someone who, like you, you know, grew up with a family business, a restaurant or, you know, even grocery store, food related. And that period of transitioning that you' ; re describing- those conversations with your dad who, you know, kind of it was in his bones to know how things were going. What advice would you give someone who like you is being handed the baton on the family business? |01:04:24| Chuskul Gosh, I feel like I' ; m still learning to even be giving that much advice, so I' ; ll just speak for what I' ; m working on within myself. I think getting your numbers down very clear is really important and I think finances is just hard for anyone, right? It' ; s like, okay, I just check my bank account and see if I have money. And if I do, good. If I don' ; t, oh, no. Right? So getting that down and, you know, getting- asking for help and asking for assistance or maybe getting someone that, you know, that' ; s their skill set to help you. And I think that' ; s a big shift in how I' ; m trying to run the restaurant now because like I said, it was very isolating. Like all these other families have Thai restaurants, but I didn' ; t grow up with them in a like connected way. I wasn' ; t, I didn' ; t, I wasn' ; t friends with them and everybody was just doing their own thing. And that' ; s kind of the culture of my family structure is just like everyone to do their own thing. But I am reaching a time that if I' ; m going to keep doing this, I need help, I need community. I need to be able to ask for help in all kinds of ways, like, oh, I need the sink broke. Like, who do I call and how do I fix all these things and collaborating with people? So that' ; s my big growing moment right now is asking for help. |01:06:27| Brody It' ; s good advice. So we talked about earlier that the Asian community in Dallas has grown a lot since the time that your family started the restaurant. How would you characterize that community today? |01:06:43| Chuskul The Thai community? |01:06:44| Brody The Thai community and the larger Asian community in general. |01:06:49| Chuskul Oh, man. Well, I was like, I' ; m not sure if I know how to answer this. I just think I mean, for me, I feel like the evolution of technology and Internet and information accessibility has really made things more dynamic and has really changed the atmosphere of culture. And so we havethis huge database system of connecting to, you know, friends and relatives and through social media or just looking up anything on Google. And I think that' ; s what' ; s really been expansive for people' ; s minds and probably has influenced, where people decide to move because it' ; s just, it feels less scary if you can do the research or if you already know people that are there and you can easily talk to them, you know, through like any kind of app like Line. Recently, my relatives from Thailand, after my parents, after my mom passed, were wanting a way to communicate with me and I had never communicated them, with them before and they probably had to ask through weird channels. Probably going back to the the doctor that birthed me who' ; s like, " ; What' ; s Daisy' ; s phone number?" ; And reached out to me and like, " ; Hey, will you download Line so I can talk to you through this app?" ; And so I don' ; t know if that was the best answer, but that' ; s my answer. |01:08:51| Brody Sounds like a lot of building connections and maintaining those connections, and it' ; s much more possible, as you said, with the different technologies that we have to do that. So in Dallas, we' ; ve had a lot of not just COVID obviously has an impact on, has had an impact on everybody around the world. But we had the tornado a few years ago and then the big ice storm a couple of years ago. So were you impacted or the restaurant impacted in in any way by those incidents? |01:09:31| Chuskul Yeah, I mean, of course. Right? And so I think in terms of the pandemic, we were an easy fit. And so we had...Because we had such a take out base, we didn' ; t have to pivot our food or restaurant or style or anything to cater to those communities. So I think at the beginning of the pandemic, when everybody was like " ; support local" ; and " ; order takeout," ; it was, we were doing quite well. But then after a while that slowed down and we still have a big takeout base, but our dine in hasn' ; t built to the level that it was before. And with my brother stepping out from the restaurant, we had, you know, we were down one more person. So the workload was, you know, quite heavy for me and my sister on top of caring for my mom. So we reduced our hours to just 3:00 to 10:00. And so now we don' ; t really have lunch service. And for me, our lunch was so cheap that I was like, I don' ; t even think we' ; re making any money from it anyways. So that was kind of an easy thing to get rid of, but it' ; s been a better work life balance for me if I' ; m going to be working every day or six days a week to just like kind of focus on when we' ; re making most of our money. So those are some changes we' ; ve had. I think with the ice storm, it was kind of fun. Our restaurant, I think, is on the same great grid as the fire station. So we had power at the restaurant, but we didn' ; t have power at home. And I was caring for my mom at the time too, and I was concerned about having her at the house without any heat. And so I just carefully made the trek to the restaurant and people were always so grateful that we were open and serving food and were walking over, carefully driving over. I also did some deliveries because I' ; m wild like that, I guess. But I just really care, you know? And I really want to serve the community if I can. And so we did that. Unfortunately, we had an accident where I was being very careful having my mom, walking my mom into the restaurant. And so when we got inside, I kind of let her go and turned around and started, you know, doing my own thing. But I forgot that her feet were going to be slippery from the ice, so she had a fall and ended up fracturing her hip. So that was a very unfortunate thing from the storm. |01:12:55| Brody I' ; m really sorry to hear that. And sorry also for the loss of your mom. |01:12:59| Chuskul Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she was a wonderful lady and really hung in there for a long time. So I' ; m very grateful for all the times that we' ; ve had together. |01:13:10| Brody Yeah. And you- and you' ; re carrying on her legacy with that recipe. |01:13:14| Chuskul Yeah, I' ; m a little mini mom now. I am her. |01:13:21| Brody A lot of people that that I' ; ve talked to who have had restaurants here in Dallas for a long time, have stories of celebrities and in Dallas Cowboys and things like that. Do you have any stories like that? |01:13:35| Chuskul Gosh, someone was just asking me about this. But I think one of our- I don' ; t know their names, which I guess is fine, but I think that the head like medical doctor for the Dallas Mavericks, he' ; s a regular and I think there is that also an ex-Mavericks player from a long time ago. He' ; s quite tall, almost too tall for our restaurant, that has come over the years too. But yeah, aside from that, I don' ; t know if there' ; s been that big of a celebrity spotting at the Bangkok Inn. |01:14:17| Brody You might be...sometimes you don' ; t know. |01:14:18| Chuskul Sometimes I don' ; t know. Maybe I didn' ; t catch them. |01:14:22| Brody So we' ; ve talked a lot about, you know, food and sort of people' ; s feelings around food and the role of food. What is your thinking about the ability of food to transmit culture or to communicate about culture? |01:14:44| Chuskul Um, gosh, I mean, maybe in so- there' ; s so many ways, you know, even from the ingredients that are used and techniques and styles or just like the sauces. But what it really comes down to for me is family. What your mom was cooking you. You know, your favorite dishes that you had as a child at home? I feel like that' ; s really the big tie for me culturally. So, you know, back to what I was saying, it' ; s like, was it authentic or not? It just was home. It was our culture. And I' ; ve been eating at one of my- we' ; re not actually blood related, but she is my cousin. And I' ; ve been watching what her mom makes for them. She works full time, but she still cooks for the family every day. And it' ; s always some vegetable. The dish like prepared as simply as just like blanched or fresh or, you know, a stir fry and then a meat protein stir fry. And then there' ; s always like a soup, and the soup is called chuet, which means bland. So it' ; s very, not a strong, you know, bland flavor soup that you eat all of these things with rice together. And that' ; s kind of a very typical like home meal. And then sometimes there' ; s something I feel is more fun, like a sauce. There' ; s one sauce that she makes and we call it fish salsa, but it' ; s kind of like ground or like pulsed fish and some, gosh, I don' ; t know the recipe yet. I' ; m going to try to figure it out. But yeah, sometimes you' ; ll have the fish salsa on the table. Or I think a big staple that my parents also made was I think it' ; s called " ; Nam Prik Kapi" ; and it' ; s the sauce I' ; m still like working on reverse engineering this one. But the sauce, I think primarily has shrimp paste, fermented shrimp paste that' ; s very salty, very strong in flavor and odor. So it' ; s a very smelly sauce. I think that' ; s why it' ; s not served in a lot of restaurants because they' ; re like, " ; I don' ; t want to scare off the customers" ; and it' ; ll leave you with a funky smelling mouth. But I love that sauce. And we would eat it with the Thai omelet and and rice and it goes with everything. And then my dad did a Thai chili and fish sauce. And I would call it " ; Dad sauce." ; He would eat it with everything. And I' ; ve reverse engineered that sauce and have been having a lot of fun building upon that and making dishes based on that flavor profile. It' ; s just basically a fish sauce and a chili and garlic and lemon juice and sugar. Or the palm sugar. And it' ; s been, yeah, it' ; s been fun to kind of explore. I feel like, did I answer that question? I don' ; t know. |01:19:09| Brody Sounds wonderful. So finally, what are some lessons or reflections that you have on your life in the restaurant? |01:19:22| Chuskul Oh. Okay. Hmm. Well, I think as far as working goes, it' ; s made me like kind of a, I guess a hard worker without asking for much. You know, I don' ; t have a big expectation. Sometimes I hear about of what I' ; m going to receive. So sometimes I hear about my friends who are like, " ; Oh, that' ; s, you know, above my pay grade" ; or like " ; I' ; m not if I' ; m not getting paid for that, I' ; m not going to do it." ; But my mentality is like, " ; Oh, you do everything, whatever needs to be done, you do it." ; And you don' ; t think about, " ; Oh, is this going to reward me later?" ; And just like helping each other out and and working and getting things done. |01:20:34| Brody That' ; s great. Well, thank you for that. And is there anything that I didn' ; t ask you today that you' ; d like to add to this interview? |01:20:42| Chuskul I think we covered a lot. So I' ; m feeling pretty good about it. |01:20:47| Brody Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing your family' ; s story and your own experiences for this project. Thank you so much. |01:20:55| Chuskul Thank you. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Daisy Chuskul, June 6, 2022
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2021oh002_di_015
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Thai
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2022-06-06
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Betsy Brody
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Don Lambert
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5.4 Interview with Don Lambert, May 30, 2022 2021oh002_di_014 01:29:43 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Community gardens Don Lambert Betsy Brody m4a oh_dig_audio_lambert_Don20220530.m4a 1:|12(15)|25(6)|41(3)|54(5)|64(10)|81(2)|91(5)|103(13)|125(8)|136(13)|145(12)|161(8)|174(7)|190(9)|200(2)|208(9)|224(5)|235(10)|245(7)|258(9)|268(13)|279(3)|289(8)|308(6)|316(6)|324(4)|332(12)|341(3)|350(6)|360(2)|371(1)|380(13)|391(9)|401(5)|411(3)|418(12)|427(9)|436(8)|448(6)|459(12)|468(5)|478(11)|493(12)|504(6)|515(5)|524(8)|533(4)|544(1)|556(7)|565(2)|579(3)|591(6)|602(1)|612(1)|622(2)|634(3)|654(2)|664(16)|674(6)|686(15)|697(8)|708(10)|720(11)|736(4)|745(8)|755(10)|769(13)|780(11)|791(11)|807(1)|816(12)|830(12)|845(6)|858(3)|869(1)|884(3)|893(10)|902(8)|914(2)|929(3)|939(4)|951(10)|964(2)|973(10)|984(4)|998(4)|1007(13)|1022(1)|1036(10) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/163104 Aviary audio At various points in the interview, Dr. Lambert said 1962, though he meant 1982. This was clarified in subsequent review of the transcript. 4 Introduction Asian Americans ; Community gardens ; Texas--History 29 Lambert's background in California and experience in the Peace Corps agriculture ; California ; farm ; farming ; fruits ; gardeners ; gardens ; Malaysia ; Peace Corps ; vegetables 328 Life after the Peace Corps/ Studying Anthropology anthropology ; Berkeley ; college ; farm ; farming ; marriage ; Peace Corps ; rice ; University of Hawaii 542 Joining the faculty at University of Texas at Dallas anthropology ; University of Texas at Dallas 822 Fulbright Fellowship to Malaysia/ Connecting with Southeast Asian refugees in Dallas Cambodia ; community garden ; East Dallas ; farming ; Fulbright Fellowship ; Laos ; Peace Corps ; refugees ; Thailand ; University of Texas at Dallas ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese 1049 Community gardens and Dallas commuity gardens ; community garden ; Dalla ; Dallas City Hall ; Dallas Civic Garden Center ; East Dallas Community Garden ; East Dallas Police Storefront ; English ; food ; food insecurity ; food pantries ; Gardeners in Development ; Joe Sewell ; language ; Paul Thai ; poverty ; refugees ; Save the Children ; South Dallas ; Texas Discovery Garden ; West Dallas 32.809939127161485, -96.77409666941585 17 https://greensourcedfw.org/articles/dallas-oldest-community-garden-still-helping-refugees 2386 Primary crops grown by Dallas community gardeners bitter melon ; bunching onion ; business ; community garden ; crops ; food ; food insecurity ; gardeners ; gourds ; herb ; Malabar spinach ; refugee ; water spinach 2900 Public-private partnerships supporting community gardening in Dallas community ; community garden ; community gardens ; Dallas ; East Dallas Community Garden ; East Dallas Police Storefront ; politics ; refugees 3101 Maintaining relationships with community gardeners over time business ; Christmas ; community garden ; community gareners ; communiy gardens ; East Dallas ; Filipinos ; food ; Garland ; refugees 3372 East Dallas Community Garden market business ; city ; Dallas ; East Dallas Community Garden ; market ; refugees 3821 Advantages and benefits of community gardens community garden ; community gardens ; community hub ; community organizing ; East Dallas Community Garden ; neigborhoods ; neighborhood 3966 Food insecurity and community gardens community garden ; food insecurity ; food pantries ; fruits ; poverty ; produce ; tomatoes ; vegetables 4154 Food deserts and community gardens community garden ; community gardens ; Dallas ; farmers markets ; food desert ; food deserts ; poverty 4533 Food and culture celebrations ; Chinese New Year ; culture ; food 4705 Changes in the Malaysian community in Dallas celebrations ; Dallas ; immigrants ; Malaysian 4867 Impact of COVID on community gardens in Dallas community garden ; community gardens ; COVID ; Dallas ; pandemic 4961 Impact of weather on community gardens in Dallas commuity garden ; commuity gardens ; East Dallas Community Garden ; ice storm ; tomatoes ; tornado ; water ; weather |00:00:04| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is May 30th, 2022. I am interviewing for the first time Dr. Don Lambert. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shaped the Story of Asian Dallas." ; Thank you so much for joining me for this interview. And let' ; s start out with just where and when were you born? |00:00:36| Lambert Well, thank you for having me and I really appreciate this opportunity. I was born in Modesto, California in 1944 and...On a family farm, the same farm that my grandfather had started in 1904. And I went to the same high school my dad did and all his brothers did. I went to the same junior college he did, but then I joined the Peace Corps and went to Malaysia. I worked in agriculture for two and a half years there. |00:01:10| Brody Tell me where you were in Malaysia and what you were doing? |00:01:13| Lambert I was in the East Malaysia state of Sarawak and in the Sibu area of Sarawak. And I worked in agriculture with the Agriculture Department and I also worked with the medical services in health projects. But yeah, it was it was interesting. I worked mostly with people- upriver peoples- Iban in particular, but also had some urban projects. And mostly I was doing things kind of like what I grew up doing on the farm, working with people who were, who wanted to raise rabbits or chickens and people who had vegetable gardens and fruit orchards and things like that. And so it was, it was kind of using the skills that I' ; d learned in my eighteen years of living on a farm, growing up. |00:02:09| Brody How how long were you there? |00:02:12| Lambert Two and a half years from, I guess, late 62 to 66. How many years is that? |00:02:22| Brody What do you think were some of the main lessons that you learned from being part of the Peace Corps and going to Malaysia? |00:02:32| Lambert I think the most important thing was it was my first opportunity to really get into another culture, to learn another language, to to see that there were really wonderful and different ways of living, you know, that, you know, you just in your imagination, you just can' ; t tell. But being there and, you know, working with people, making friends and whatnot. And I learned a lot about the importance of people working together and communities, you know, collaborating on things because that' ; s...That was part of the culture there. And it was a unique experience because I hadn' ; t experienced that much, you know, sort of togetherness and, you know, people working just help each other solve their problems and whatnot in my experience growing up. You know, I mean, growing up in California was great, but it was so different and so unique. |00:03:31| Brody In the communities that you were working in, what were some concrete changes that the Peace Corps brought to those areas? |00:03:39| Lambert Well, the groups that I worked with were mostly extremely impoverished. They had, through a process of expanding agricultural projects and colonial projects and whatnot, lost, you know, access to the land that they had had farmed on traditionally. A lot of them had been relocated or pushed on to sort of marginal areas of land. And instead of having large areas of forest that they could exploit, they were they were hill rice farmers mostly, and they fished and hunted and things like that. They were forced to make do on a few acres. And so a lot of what we were doing was trying to introduce, you know, new technology, new techniques to like make- have productive, you know, commercial type gardens on small pieces of land. So there was a lot of interest in new crops, getting people to plant fruit trees. And I know it worked because I was able to visit ten years later and actually and twenty years later. And I could see these communities had been really transformed and they had become market gardeners. And the first time I visited, they weren' ; t exactly thriving yet, but. By twenty years later, you know, people were going to college, they were going to school. You know, the whole society was transformed. And some small part of it was probably that, you know, I was able to be there and work with them for that couple of years. |00:05:19| Brody That' ; s incredible that you were able to go back and see, in increments of time, the difference. |00:05:24| Lambert Yeah, that was that was really super to do that. |00:05:28| Brody So how did you end up in Texas? What happened after the Peace Corps? |00:05:33| Lambert Well, I got married in the Peace Corps to my wife, Tiah, and we, right after marriage, I managed to get a job for us both to work together in Hawaii at the Peace Corps Training Center in Hilo, which was part of the University of Hawaii program. And so she taught Malay language, which is her native tongue. And I taught, you know, the trainees things about, you know, how to work in other cultures and agricultural things and whatnot. And so after a couple of years of that, I wanted to go to school. I had no education, no higher education. I pretty much flunked out of my freshman year at Modesto, where I grew up, and that' ; s one of the reasons I went in the Peace Corps. It was an escape, you know, and it changed my life to join the Peace Corps. So then I wanted to, I wanted to go to college, and I was so interested in other culture, I decided that if there' ; s any field that I needed to go into, it was anthropology that had my name on it. And so I went to Maui Community College for two years. I went to University of Hawaii Manoa campus on Oahu for two years, and then went to Berkeley for almost ten to finish my doctorate degree, in which I went back to Malaysia and studied an agricultural village in West Malaysia in the state of Pahang. |00:07:13| Brody What was your dissertation called? |00:07:20| Lambert Well, the dissertation was called " ; Swamp Rice Farming." ; It was about utilizing natural swamp land where you had minimal amount of irrigation control to grow traditional types of rice. And it was also then how they needed to integrate other ways to make money like rubber tapping. They had rubber tapping farms. They fished and sold fish from the river. You know, they exploited rattan from the forest and things like that. So they had a lot of other, you know, activities that are necessary to, you know, just to survive. |00:08:01| Brody So you went back and did field work? |00:08:03| Lambert Yes, I went back and did field work. |00:08:05| Brody How long were you there? |00:08:07| Lambert That was about 14 months. Yeah. |00:08:12| Brody So you were at Berkeley and after that? Well, before that, I want to go back and ask you, how did you meet your wife? |00:08:21| Lambert I was lucky and was housed in some in a government housing project. Well, they had a, at that time, the government had quarters, they call them, and they set up for all the different departments in government so that, you know, they had housing for the people who worked in Lands and Survey and for people who work in Forestry and whatnot. And so, you know, that little bungalow or whatever you call it was close to a part within the village, where she, where my wife was. And somehow I just kept running into her and she kept catching my eye. And it, you know, that' ; s what happened? |00:08:59| Brody Well, that' ; s wonderful. That' ; s a great story. So you were together then at, in Berkeley and then what happened? |00:09:13| Lambert Towards the end of finishing my degree at Berkeley, we' ; re talking now in the late seventies, it became really obvious that maybe career-wise, anthropology was not the best place to be because there were so many anthropology students at that time, especially at Berkeley. I mean, I think we were turning out twenty degrees a year. And when I' ; d go to annual conferences of the American Anthropology Association, where most, you know, students and most jobs and whatnot, you know, came available to people through that conference. There were just long lines of people trying to be interviewed. And, you know, it' ; s just a real scramble. And right before I was ready to apply, this was the first year that nobody seemed to get a job in our department that year. And so, yeah, it was it was almost impossible to get a job. So fortunately, I think it was in Chicago in about 1981 1961, there was a professor from University of Texas at Dallas that had come to Chicago looking for somebody to hire because they had an opening to teach anthropology. They' ; d had a professor who had died, I believe, and they needed somebody. They had people were already signed up for spring classes. They needed somebody to come out right away. And I guess I was it. I was ripe for the plucking, you might say. So, you know, I, you know, so we moved out December and I was teaching in January. |00:11:00| Brody And this is 1981 1961. |00:11:03| Lambert Probably 1982 1962. |00:11:07| Brody What was UTD like at that time? |00:11:09| Lambert There was no undergraduates. It was only graduate level. And it was pretty small and undeveloped. Lots of construction, you know, lots of you know, it was not the most pleasant place to be because, you know, when you' ; re in the middle of a construction site and there' ; s erosion and dirt blowing everywhere and things like that and equipment and, you know, they- the trees hadn' ; t grown up yet. They planted a lot of trees here and there. But, you know, it was... So it was pretty uncomfortable just to be on campus much. And people didn' ; t hang out on campus. The students, you know, were mostly older, a lot of professionals, a lot of people who had, because they needed to upgrade their education in order to advance in their careers, you know, were getting, picking up a few courses at UTD. And it wasn' ; t the kind of students I really was prepared to teach. And it wasn' ; t the kind of students who really seemed to be interested in other cultures and, you know, what' ; s going on in the rest of the world. They were interested in engineering and business and things like that. And so it was it was interesting, you know, but I had fairly small classes. I had a lot of people in class that were...Well, they they were overworked as it was. And to find out that they could only way they could get a grade in the class is to go to the library and study and write papers and things like that,... You know, they weren' ; t really up for that. So I, I wish I had taught when I had undergraduates. That would have been great. |00:12:59| Brody Yeah, it' ; s a different feel, I' ; m sure. Why were they taking anthropology? |00:13:07| Lambert Because the way...what do you call it? Course curriculums were planned at that time, there was the idea that people should get some liberal arts, some, some balance. And it seemed to me that was disappearing in the four years that I taught there. It was just more and more, you know, geared towards, you know, not getting, not having a broad education, but being more specialized. |00:13:38| Brody I see. So you were there for four years? |00:13:40| Lambert Yeah. |00:13:41| Brody And then. Then what was your next step? |00:13:45| Lambert Well, I was there on a five year contract. And so I begin to realize that I needed to do something to up my game a little bit. And I wasn' ; t sure that they were going to extend the contract. In fact, it began to look like there wasn' ; t going to be any anthropology at all, you know, because they had been canceling other areas in the university, other disciplines. And so I applied for a Fulbright Fellowship and went to Malaysia, to Penang in Malaysia to teach at the University of Science in Penang for a year, thinking, you know, that that would say, well, because everybody who gets a grant and does important research or goes overseas and does some teaching or something like that is an important, you know, plum you might say to the university. It wasn' ; t so for a discipline that they were thinking about, you know, not supporting, you know, so. So that didn' ; t do me any good. I came back and taught off and on, you know, part time and that frustration of sort of not being able to continue in my chosen, you know, discipline and the fact that I had this background of working in Southeast Asia and Asian agriculture and whatnot, when refugees started showing up, you know, from Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos, Thailand and whatnot, I was fascinated by this opportunity to sort of, you know, maybe apply some of what I had been doing in the Peace Corps and some of my background from farming that just and and I was just, I just was so interested, you might say, in how they were going to adjust and adapt and become part of American...the fabric of American life. And so I did everything I could to, you know, get involved with them. While I was still teaching, I sent my students down to East Dallas, where the main community was located, to do the little research projects. Students got involved in things like, you know, helping people find apartments and, you know, helping resettle people and things like that, volunteering at various agencies that work with the refugees. And then they wrote reports back to me. And so I got a really good feel of what was going on. So when I stopped teaching altogether and decided that maybe I should try to work in community gardens, you know, I had a lot of background, you know, already. And so it was a fairly easy transition. |00:16:45| Brody That' ; s great. And you had a lot of information. |00:16:47| Lambert Yeah. |00:16:47| Brody What was Dallas like when you got here? |00:16:59| Lambert I don' ; t know. It was certainly different from where I came from. Right? And I mean, I was struck of how big it was and and how it seemed to be divided in a lot of different areas that didn' ; t interact a lot together with each other. |00:17:27| Brody That makes sense. And so back to the community gardens. So you had all this information and you were...You had all the right background pieces with your farming and agriculture background, your Peace Corps background, and your interest in Southeast Asia, and familiarity with Southeast Asia. So what made you think community gardens would be a good addition to the Dallas landscape? |00:17:59| Lambert One of the things that I got involved with while I was still teaching. Well, I was interested in the fact that there was poverty here, and I didn' ; t experience much poverty growing up in California, just lucky from where I lived, I guess. But to see that there was poverty here and things like food pantries were struggling, you know, with huge numbers of people who needed food. I mean, my immediate thought was, " ; My gosh, food is so easy to grow. Why aren' ; t people growing food here? You know, there' ; s people who have large backyards, you know, why aren' ; t they using them? There' ; s vacant lots all over the place. If we could just put those, you know, into production, you know, if people some meaningful and you know, way to support themselves but it would also feed people." ; I couldn' ; t see any reason why the food pantries had to beg stores and farms and whatnot to donate produce when people could grow it themselves. And so I, I joined a couple of groups that were working on the food crisis here, and I can' ; t remember their names right off. But what I found was that they did not think community gardens was a solution at all. |00:19:30| Brody Why not? |00:19:32| Lambert They thought that they were so...that the resources were so scarce. There was so little funding for for running food pantries and for...They had to buy a lot of foods that they would distribute and whatnot. They they just could not. You know, the lines were getting longer and longer at the pantries. And the idea of putting in any kind of resource or energy into something else just was beyond them. So I would talk about community gardens and they would look at...roll their eyes, you know, and it was like so it was. But one of the ladies on one of those groups, a man from the Agriculture Extension Service, who at that time was trying to start community gardens here and there and some school gardens and whatnot. He retired years and years ago, but he had come out and started a sort of a garden, you know, close to...in West Dallas with the Hispanic community there. And the garden wasn' ; t going very well, you know, it just was not thriving. And so she called me up and said, " ; I' ; ve got a garden project over here. Would you like to see it?" ; And I said, " ; Sure." ; So I came out and, you know, it' ; s almost immediately that I knew some things that they could do, which would help from my background. And so I sort of jumped in and took over the garden, you know, managing it for them and, you know, got them loads of compost and you know, helped them lay out beds and things like that. They basically just had a fenced in area that was on an old dump site where they didn' ; t have good soil and you know, they tried to dig a hole here or there and plant things, but they just didn' ; t have the the tools and the knowledge and whatnot they needed and so on. So that was my first big garden project here, you might say. And so that, that went on for at least six, seven years until they had a change of director and didn' ; t think the garden fit their program anymore, you know? And that' ; s... Several projects we started sort of ended that way, just a change in the staffing at the local level. But that garden sort of led to work at a number of church gardens, a couple school gardens and other things that just because I was out there doing that, people through the network, you know, learned there' ; s some guy out there that' ; s interested in helping with gardens. So yeah, that was sort of the early period. I think we had six or seven projects that I worked with and so there... for was like a two year period starting about then in which it was sort of I just created my own community garden program. My vision was that community gardens were not going to make it if they were just disconnected from each other. They needed to have some kind of connectivity, some way to share information, some way to work together. And so I spent a couple of years driving around to communities trying to find community gardens, calling up everybody I thought might know something about community gardens. I was just sure that I was going to discover community gardens out there that wanted to be part of something bigger. |00:23:09| Brody Did you? |00:23:11| Lambert No. |00:23:12| Brody Really. |00:23:14| Lambert What I discovered was that community, the community gardens were all projects that were just for us, our little group of people. There wasn' ; t a notion that, you know, do some citywide program or whatnot. It was usually like, well, maybe a couple of gardens in West Dallas or maybe a couple of gardens over in East Dallas or somewhere like South Dallas. But I couldn' ; t find people who were interested in a regional kind of thing. Just specific little areas. And usually it was a group of friends got together and for a few months the garden was a thing for them and then they sort of failed. So I started collecting data on all the projects I could come up with, and I ended up with a file drawer full of, you know, projects that lasted four or five years and became, you know, for that. That' ; s obviously not the way to go. A big break came in around 91 when my work with community gardens, because of a newspaper article had been published about my work, attracted the interest of the Dallas Civic Garden Center, which is now called the Texas Discovery Garden. And they found out that there was a way they could get a grant to have a community garden program attached to that center. And they reached out and hired me. And that lasted for two, two plus years until their board and whatnot thought that it was not really compatible with the mission of there org, you know. I guess I took it in directions that not what they imagined it should be taken in there. During that time we had maybe seven or eight gardens that were doing pretty well, but they let me go. So we turned around and started, in 1994, Gardeners in Community Development and all the early members were the people from those gardens. And so we had no resources. We found it was almost impossible to raise funds as a, as a new nonprofit who didn' ; t have a history. And so... And what we found was we had this group of gardens and every year or two another one of them would have to close down. We just didn' ; t have the way to keep them going. And having volunteers come out, but we still didn' ; t have the funds, you know, to put in working water systems and to build, you know, productive beds and buy compost and things like that. And from about 1991, so the East Dallas Community Garden was started...Let' ; s go back up a little bit. East Dallas Community Garden was started in about 87, 88 by a civic group that came together called the East Dallas Community Garden Alliance. And it had two or three people who worked in City Hall that were part of that committee, a bunch of business leaders like from- I' ; m trying to think of this... I can' ; t. I can' ; t remember his name. Maybe come up later. Sewell. Joe Sewell of Sewell automobile. Right. He was kind of the chair of this committee. We had some people from the from the police department, like Ron Cowart, from correction agencies, and it just- and then churches. The group was at least fifteen or twenty, you know, sort of community leaders who had been looking at this flood of Southeast Asian refugees coming into East Dallas, where, you know, there were so many needs and that the people had so much interest in getting access to food that was important to them. And, you know, there was no...There there was just nothing there to fulfill that need. And fairly quickly, mostly Vietnamese started the little grocery stores. So there were, gosh, six or eight little mom and pop grocery stores popped up in East Dallas. In fact, when when we came here in 82 62, my wife and I came in 82 62, there was no way to, where the only place you could buy Asian groceries was down off of Fitzhugh and Ross and, you know, in that neighborhood. And it got to be where almost every weekend, you know, we' ; d make a trek down there to get, you know, rice and the various all the things we needed, you know. And, and it wasn' ; t easy, it seemed like we always were looking for things we couldn' ; t find. You know, the stores were so small. And anyway, the, the population of refugees were mostly rural, farming folk and they really could not understand why food was not being grown in Dallas. It didn' ; t make sense. They came from communities where people did not plant shade trees. They planted fruit trees. The shade was nice, you know. But, you know, it was it was maybe mangoes and lychee and langsat and things like that. Trees were yard, the yard trees, you know, coconut trees, whatever. So you had food, you know, from the trees and they gardened intensively and every little piece of land they can get their hands on because there were food near to where they grew up and they had a culture that had learned how to survive, you know? And so apartment managers started complaining that they couldn' ; t keep the refugees from digging up the flower beds and planting vegetables. Vacant lots would have little, you know, vegetable plots spring up. Then people would be carrying buckets of water down the stairs and across the street to water a few plants here and there. And as I would drive around in East Dallas, I would see just little, little patches of vegetables like everywhere. And this became a major conflict. And, you know that these people, their culture was different. They' ; re doing things that we don' ; t do in Dallas. In my community garden work, I began running into, if I go out and talk to groups, church groups and things like that, people would complain that it' ; s it' ; s unsightly for people to grow vegetables, you know, out in the front yard where they can be seen, things like that. And when we talked about community gardens, right, they they couldn' ; t imagine a vacant lot that was now growing vegetables as not being something that was ugly or inappropriate for Dallas. And these people were breaking the rule right and left. So this East Dallas Community Garden Alliance, I don' ; t know, I wasn' ; t part part of when they got started. I don' ; t know how they hit on the idea of community gardens because there wasn' ; t a lot of information around about community gardens at that time. But they started a couple of garden projects and sort of settled on what' ; s now become the East Dallas Community Garden on Fitzhugh Avenue as their main project. It was a dump site. It was a huge lot that was covered with trees where homeless people had lived forever, you might say, and where people abandoned cars and couches and, you know, all kinds of rubbish was everywhere. And so they, they fenced it off, cleaned it up, and it took them two or three years. And the biggest problem was getting all the junk, the broken concrete and things like that off the lot, which they actually never did. So once they were actually gardening, it took another almost ten years to get most of that stuff out because it would just keep coming to the surface. As people would dig in the garden, it would be more and more of it show up. And we when I was in charge of the garden later, it was like every year we did a major cleanup project to remove more of that stuff and improve the soil. But the East Dallas Community Garden Alliance really didn' ; t have the vision, you might say the mission to have some ongoing project, because I don' ; t think...they they didn' ; t understand the necessity. They, their vision seemed to be that these were people who had farming experience and they would know what to do. And all they needed was somebody to have their back and give them a site where they could do it. And that turned out to be a really bad assumption because people who come here, who don' ; t speak English, have no Western training or don' ; t know how to how to operate within a Western society within Dallas, they didn' ; t know how to get things. They didn' ; t know how to ask for things. They didn' ; t- they had no network to work from. And so, you know, they had opening day. They assigned plots to people and they pretty much- the gardens sort of tried to run on its own and it went to weed. The water system broke down and there was nobody to fix it. Half of the garden was flooded. They had a drainage problem. It wasn' ; t, it didn' ; t have the right slopes to start with and things. And sort of one by one, all these community people that had been on this organization decided that they' ; d had enough of this project that was, you know, they were going to go on to other things. And it fell to two, possibly three organizations that sort of tried to keep the garden going because they realized how important it was to people. One of them was the police department through their East Dallas Police Storefront, and another one was the Save the Children East Dallas Project. They had a storefront that sold handicrafts made by refugee populations all over the world as a fundraising project. And they also worked with women and children in need in the community and maybe in East Dallas Counseling Center. There was the multicultural center was around for a while, too, so there was enough of them, but more and more, their ability or interest in the garden just seemed to wane. They just couldn' ; t do anything. So I got a call from, at that time, I was working with the the community with the Texas Discovery Garden Project, and I got a call from I think it was from Margaret Koons, director of Save the Children there. And she said that they, they were having problems with the garden and they were worried that it might have to be closed, that, you know, half of the garden wasn' ; t very productive anymore and it wasn' ; t organized in any way. And they couldn' ; t figure out a way to pay the bills, the water bills and things like that. So they had started at the beginning of all of these agencies that were somehow part of it, you know, sending in a small amount of money, you know, on a regular basis to cover the bills. And that got to be where that wasn' ; t happening. And so I said, " ; Margaret, what we need to do is we need to make that garden so productive that paying the bills won' ; t be a problem, that the people who garden there, you know, it' ; ll be so worthwhile to them that they won' ; t need, you know, money coming in from that site just to pay the water bill." ; And so I was working at the Civic Garden Center and they had had a grant. So I was able to tap into some of that grant money. And I went I worked through Paul Thai, who was our main contact at the East Dallas storefront, and also really the main guy that was able to work with the gardeners out there. You know, there were several other people, but he was he was really, I would say, top. And so we drew up a plan to put in raised beds and mulch pathways and fix the water system and things like that. And we were able to go out and buy the lumber and the stuff and whatnot and get it done with volunteers, the gardeners themselves. So basically me and a fellow went out there and we built like five or six garden beds and we basically just had to shut down part of the garden, which upset the gardeners a lot. So we started building these garden beds and they would stand and watch us and shake their heads and they were really upset I think. That, you know, their garden was maybe being taken away from them. And then one day we came to the garden and overnight they had built three or four more beds themselves. And then they said, " ; You don' ; t need to build any more beds, we' ; ll do it." ; You know? And they were so happy with, you know, beds that were sort of laid out, you know, in a regular pattern where the the walkways were well-defined because before people didn' ; t quite knew where their boundaries were. And more a stronger garden would, and first thing you know, you start encroaching on somebody else and that would lead to kind of conflicts and all of that. So we really started there a system of gardening that was, you know, demonstrated dramatically, you know, that, you know, you could have pathways of a- of the proper size and beds of a proper size and everything laid out in a way so that it was efficient to move through and work in the garden. And we started bringing in huge loads of woodchips and mulching all the pathways deep. So we got the weeds under control. And anyway, so from 1994, the garden became the Gardeners in Development Project. |00:39:46| Brody What were people growing? |00:39:49| Lambert Oh, boy. I, it took me actually a couple of years to figure that out because even though I' ; ve had an extensive, you know, experience in Southeast Asia, Cambodians and Laotians in particular, we didn' ; t have any Vietnamese in the garden at that point. I think there might have been some earlier, but they went on to other things. So they weren' ; t really, you know, gardening people at that point. But so they were growing bitter melon, wax gourd, winter melon, luffa, which are all gourd crops. Their main green crops were mustard greens and they grew long beans. They grew a bunching onion and I' ; m trying to think, what else? Lots of different kinds of herbs. At one time I had a list of something like fifty different things that they were growing in the garden that I had identified, and another five or six that some of them I never did. But over, over time, that list narrowed down a lot. There was a huge change because there was really a food crisis and I don' ; t know what year it was, but in which the amount of subsidy and support that people could get. Maybe this was just the funding they got that, you know, after they were here as refugees of a certain amount of time, money ran out, something like that. And suddenly it became more instead of being like a kitchen garden set up where everybody' ; s growing all the things they can think of, the food plants, medicinal plants, herbs, whatever, you know that as much as possible that was like what they grew back home, suddenly became, we' ; ve got to make more money. So they started focusing more on cash crops, the number one one being water spinach. And it actually- that almost created a crisis because there was such a demand for water spinach. It was so lucrative that it pretty much took over the garden for a while and it got to be where it was kind of a mono crop kind of system. And they started having disease and insect problems and whatnot that come along with not being diversified. |00:42:24| Brody Where was the demand coming from? |00:42:29| Lambert Other refugees, mostly of which, you know, the populations kept growing and growing. I mean, there were four thousand families there when I started, but it just, you know, every year there were more and more. And then we had large numbers coming in from Thailand and other places. And then all the other ethnic groups from that region of the world, you know, discovered that the garden was a source. And so people were selling vegetables from the very beginning in the garden pretty much, which was counted as an illegal activity, I guess by the city. We did have code enforcement people come out and issue warnings a few times and I would have to call up a few people and remind them that, you know, this is an agricultural state and that farmers are allowed to sell the stuff that they grow, look it up, you know? And so those never went anywhere. But we felt, I think they felt harassed off and on by the fact that they were growing stuff and selling it. And when we talked about community gardens in general, there was a lot of resistance out there to the idea that any community garden would be allowed to sell stuff. Right. So anyway, but they did it. And in some ways it was their insistence that they had this way of life, this thing they were going to do, because in their minds it was the right things to do that they kept on doing things even when other people didn' ; t think it was the right thing to do, I might say. And there was really no way to stop them, you know, from doing what they they were doing in some ways, I guess. And so, yeah, they set up stalls at first. People just go from plot to plot and buy from folks. And since most of the community at that time lived close to the garden, so it was years before people had resettled to other places. So East Dallas was full of of Southeast Asians. And so, you know, there' ; d be all these...the Vietnamese were some of the main buyers. They seemed to have more money than other people. And they also had a lot of influence. They would tell the gardeners what to grow. If, you know, if you grow a water spinach we' ; ll buy it. If you grow Malabar spinach we' ; ll buy it, you know, whatever. Grow more of this, grow more of that. And I, I was seeing crops changed to meet this demand and focusing on a few productive crops. So like a lot of the, the bitter melons, the gourd crops and whatnot kind of were forced out, become a minimal thing because they grew on trellises and they shaded the garden and they needed full sunshine to grow water spinach and things. They...I did some things to try to bring in some crops that were, perhaps would be lucrative and fit better at times because for many years they didn' ; t have- they didn' ; t know what to do with winter. It was too cold here for most of the things that they grow. I mean, tropical crops really don' ; t do well below 60 degrees and a lot of them die at 50, you know. And so they had discovered the bunching onions on their own. And so I got interested in finding some other crops. They had some types of mustard. The early mustard seeds we could get our hands on, the Asian mustards were mostly from South China, warmer areas. I mean, they were mostly from the northern China. Yeah. And so. I got that mixed up anyway. It took them several years to find greens that would grow in the wintertime here. And lettuce, to me, was was really one of the best crops they could grow in terms of marketability. And you see, it does so well here. They had tried to grow lettuce. And failed on several occasions, and we' ; re not interested anymore. And so I got a plot of my own for a while, and I just tried out things. So you plant lettuce in November, you know, or even October, and it comes up and grows and you can start harvesting it, you know? Well, we used to say what we with our lettuce should be harvestable by Thanksgiving if we do it right. But you can harvest lettuce all winter and all spring. It only stops when it gets too hot in the summertime. So you have several months of production, lettuce production. But if you start it in the summertime, like I think is what they did it, it just goes to seed. It took about three years. Suddenly, lettuce was the most, one of their most important winter crops. The lettuce and onions and mustard grow in the winter and then all those tropical crops in the summer. You know, once they figured things out a little bit, you know, our summertime was just about like South East Asia. They never thought it was too hot. Everybody else in Dallas is running for air conditioning, and they were just fine. You know, maybe it wasn' ; t even as oppressive and humid and hot as it would have been where they grew up. I' ; m not sure. But anyway, next? |00:48:18| Brody That' ; s really interesting. I just am interested in going back a little bit to some of those groups that existed around community gardening, like the the alliance that you were talking about. It' ; s interesting to me that there was a partnership between corporate people, the city, the police department, nonprofits. When-was that sort of started in the seventies and extended into sort of the nineties. Or what do you remember about the timing on that? |00:48:57| Lambert Yeah, it started. Let' ; s see. It really had its heyday, I would say, in probably the late eighties and up to the mid-nineties. And then it kind of came to a close, it seemed like, fairly quickly. And there seemed to be a feeling by a lot of people that. When government entities and businesses and whatnot targeted certain groups to help that it was unfair to other groups maybe. I remember the police officers used to be a part of every community meeting and they knew everybody personally. And it was, that was really a close relationship between, you know, the East Dallas Police Storefront. You know, they had afterschool programs for the local kids. They had health and immunization things went on there. People came there to get all kinds of help. And police officers were seen in the evenings at the apartment buildings, visiting with families and stuff. It was a really close...And there were other groups that weren' ; t getting that help that also needed help maybe. And I think there were complaints and it eventually came down to a notion that even like, oh, I won' ; t go there. |00:50:34| Brody It was really interesting that there even was that, the impetus to to cooperate and collaborate between the public and private and especially the police department. I know in East Dallas during that time period was, you know, very much into community, you know, involvement in community policing. And you mentioned that the police officer was really the main person at the garden, you know, sort of on the scene. So that' ; s... |00:51:01| Lambert Yeah. I remember we had a shed to move at the garden one point. It' ; s back in the corner where the water was standing and we decided we had to move it to higher ground. And it' ; s like a big old heavy thing, you know. And two of the officers brought their pickup trucks with the winches on the front, you know, on their time, you know, and and moved it, you know. But they' ; d show up in uniform and, you know, help in the garden at times and stuff. So, you know, it was really different. But those people pretty much all got reassigned at some point because policy somewhere changed. And it' ; s kind of, you know... |00:51:41| Brody I knew a lot of the people who lived in that area, you know, as refugees in the apartments that people were resettled to in a year, two years, five years, made enough money to be able to move to other parts of town, to Garland or, you know, further north. Did you maintain relationships with people who had been gardeners in the community garden? |00:52:07| Lambert Yeah, basically that relationship never ended. The people moved to other places. East Dallas became a place that wasn' ; t- wasn' ; t the best place to live. Right? And so when people were able to move, they moved. But they came back to East Dallas and continued to garden. And it, for a while it was a real problem because, you know, they' ; d moved in with their children' ; s families in Garland mostly. And that' ; s a distance to travel, and there' ; s no easy public transportation or whatnot. So they had to get rides from their kids to come to the garden. And what I noticed is when people had jobs and the household was doing well, it was hard for the seniors to come to the garden and grow vegetables. But when they were having difficulty, the kids were out there with them, helping them grow food because the family needed it. And the, even some of the...and the other thing that happened was that once they moved to a house in in Garland or somewhere, they had...Every house had enough land around it that you could grow stuff. And quite often they had stuff growing from the sidewalk all the way around the back side of the house. So every piece of thing, they put in a little greenhouses so they could start their seedlings and conserve stuff over winter from the cold. And so all of the gardeners that I visited and I visit almost everybody, you know, usually on a regular basis. We used to do a Christmas thing every year where we baked cookies and took a batch of cookies to everybody at the garden if if we could find them. And one of the highlights of every one of those tours was to go in their backyard and see their garden. And they had from fence to fence, they hadn' ; t wasted a single spot on grass or ornamentals. It was all food plants and herbs and stuff. And, you know, they so...I begin to think, I have never had a way to find out, but I figured there must be a lot of people from other places who weren' ; t grown up in this sort of culture that seem to restrict gardens or make gardens not a thing to do who were growing stuff. And I think it' ; s probably true. You know, it could be Filipinos. They could be from India. They can be, you know, whatever Indonesians. Everybody I ran into seemed to have, you know, if they had an older person in their household, usually they also had a big at least, a kitchen garden for the family. But those gardens were growing a lot of food, more food than the household needed. And so a lot of them were selling food. They were, they were giving food to other members of their own families and whatnot. At one time, we sort of figured out that probably every community gardener in the East Dallas Garden was probably growing food for twenty other people, you know. And so yeah, so the community gardens' ; you know, impact, you know, was multiplied dramatically by the fact that people took that technology, those ideas, whatever, and, and mixed it with their own, you know, and grew stuff all over the place. |00:55:59| Brody That' ; s great. |00:56:01| Lambert And I had a Vietnamese neighbor and a lot of the crops I ended up growing, you know, I grew because he did so well and a lot of them escaped into my yard and I still have them. |00:56:12| Brody That' ; s great. Did those families that were growing so much food beyond what their immediate family' ; s need was, do they sell in some of their food? |00:56:21| Lambert Yeah. Yeah, they did. Some of them are trying to I mean, the market was so good at the East Dallas Garden while the apartments still had a lot of people close by, that they were basically selling pretty much all day long, every day of the week. There was just a constant little trickle of people. And on Saturdays it was like crowded in there. And some of the what they were selling there, they were bringing from their home gardens. |00:56:52| Brody Were there stalls set up there, or did people just sort of stand near their garden plot? |00:56:57| Lambert Yeah. Well, at one point it was a lot of standing near the garden plots kind of thing. People would garden and somebody came over and asked to buy this or that, point at something they wanted, but they eventually put up little table things and tried to put covers up and it was kind of disorganized. And we, at one point, I had to really take over the selling thing and arrange it, organize it, because people were controlling access. You know, somebody that had a garden close to the main gate felt like it wasn' ; t right that anybody walked by their stall to get to somebody else' ; s, right? It was kind of weird. So and so we actually took out two of the garden plots and set up an area and built a bunch of tables and whatnot. And they, after a while, sort of figured out that was maybe better. And, you know, the good thing about working with refugees was that, you know, it might be a little struggle to do something for a while, but they would very often take over and make the system work. We didn' ; t know how to make it work either a lot of the time. But, you know, they were able to make it work satisfactorily, you know, after a while. So, you know, they. Yeah. The selling of things to restaurants and grocery stores and whatnot is something I really don' ; t know a lot about because I was never able to get access to the information itself. I know that' ; s where it was going. I recognized some of these people were regular. The big buyers, they would come to the garden and buy a whole truckload of stuff, sometimes on a regular basis. But they weren' ; t open to talk to, you know, and the gardeners themselves were very secretive it seemed about, you know, their business thing. So I was never able to figure out how much money they were making, you know, or not. But I think it was significant. Still is. Yeah. And so we did some calculations a few times and come up with some numbers that nobody would believe. Right. But three quarters of an acre, you know, managed intensively, producing food every month of the year, you know, probably grows a lot more per acre than most farms. Right. |00:59:34| Brody About pricing, how did that you know, when this all kind of sounds like it evolved organically, how did people decide? Was there competition to under, you know, underprice things to get more sales or? |00:59:50| Lambert Their pricing was always ridiculously low, it seemed like. And I mean, that' ; s one reason they did a lot of business. But they would sell maybe...Well, if you went to the Asian grocery store just a few years ago, I remember looking at the Asian grocery store and I' ; d look at a bundle of, say, water spinach. And I would think, boy, you know, that' ; s a third of the size of a bundle that they would sell for the same amount of money at the East Dallas Garden. And so people who were poor, shopped there a lot. I think it got, reached a point where, one, they lived too far to come to the garden, people are poor and also they couldn' ; t compete with the fact that large buyers were buying up stuff. So it' ; s gotten to be where now, almost all the sales are on Friday, late Friday and Saturday morning. And that' ; s it. They sell out. They can sell, they can sell more than they can grow always, you know, because there' ; s such a demand for these types of foods that they grow. |01:01:02| Brody Today, who are the gardeners? Is it still primarily refugees? |01:01:06| Lambert Yes, we, we' ; ve had a few other people that had plots off and on and it never really lasted. They just didn' ; t have this stick-to-it-iveness, is that what you call it? And, but the original families, we still have a small number of people who had plots way back in the late eighties, you know, who are really old, could hardly come in. Every year, we' ; re losing people now because they' ; re aging out on us and other family members are taking over. One thing that happened was the original garden plan was to have like 48 or something plots, which meant, you know, we' ; re going have 48 maybe families. And the way the plots got assigned originally, I think that the people doing it, they didn' ; t they didn' ; t have any way to tell who was who, right? So somebody, everybody, I guess, was clever. They managed to get a plot for their daughter and for their you know, for their sister and things like that. So that it ended up that each family actually had control over three or four plots. And as time has gone on, that' ; s expanded. So as various groups have had to drop out, now that their plots often got turned over to others. So we haven' ; t brought in hardly any new gardeners. And we found that we weren' ; t successful at actually incorporating somebody new into the garden that they could, but we couldn' ; t. You know, maybe it' ; s like, you know, we bring in somebody, it didn' ; t work. But the next thing you know, there' ; s a, there' ; s a relative who' ; s doing it, who' ; s taking care of a plot. Then it' ; s like " ; What happened to so-and-so?" ; " ; Oh, he' ; s gone." ; You know, so. So now, several of them control maybe six, seven, eight plots. Right. And we' ; re down to sort of maybe ten. You know, I mean. |01:03:15| Brody There' ; s still city involvement or? |01:03:18| Lambert No city involvement ever, really. I mean, other than that first committee time. Yeah. And yeah, I don' ; t think the city, anybody in the city is aware that they ever had any relationship with the garden anymore. It wouldn' ; t fit their idea of what the city is supposed to be doing, apparently. Yeah. |01:03:41| Brody Just zooming out a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about the advantages, the benefits of community gardens in general? |01:03:55| Lambert I was on the board of the American Community Gardening Association for six years and, of course, that' ; s what we talked about a lot. You know, what' ; s our purpose? Why do we have gardens? What can they do for people? And in that time, I visited community garden programs in at least a dozen cities across the country. And it really seems that the main thing that community gardens do is it, it brings people together, neighborhoods together. It becomes a place where people come together and who' ; ve never worked together before. And they learn how to get things done as a group and they organize people. In fact, here our East Dallas Garden where we worked with Hispanics for the six or seven years. That group became such a strong group within a neighborhood that was not organized at all, that they virtually took over a literacy program in a local nonprofit there and managed that. And then they became the main board and staff members on a group that started building houses, building new homes for people. And so they went from being community gardeners to homeowners, you know, because they were able to, they were the only people organized in the neighborhood. But, you know, there' ; s of course, the nutrition, the exercise aspects of gardening. It' ; s greatly therapeutic in so many ways. As you pass, as we well know, when we get as old as my wife and I are, if it wasn' ; t for the garden to get us out there, we would not be able to move. I don' ; t know. You know, but, you know, a garden gets you excited to go out and be out there with nature, to meet other fellow gardeners and, and share with them and whatnot. I don' ; t know. I used to have a good list. |01:06:06| Brody In terms of that, earlier you were talking about, you know, that you noticed when you came to Dallas that there was poverty that you hadn' ; t really encountered in California and food insecurity and sort of the attitudes of the food pantries about gardens. Has any of that changed as people have gotten more involved and interested in dealing with food insecurity? |01:06:28| Lambert Yeah, well, as far as the food pantries go, most of them, I think, are pretty excited to get fresh, local produce now. And I mean, there' ; s been a couple of things happen. One is over time they got better organized and better funded and most of them realized that there was food that they were totally missing that needed refrigeration. So almost every pantry that I know of now has some way to keep fresh vegetables, you know, and they' ; re being donated fresh vegetables from stores and things like that. Stuff that sort of, you know, doesn' ; t have any shelf life left, you know, and but they can keep it, you know, overnight or for a couple of days and hand it out when they' ; re open. But at first, that was the main impediment that we were given this. If you give us fresh vegetables, where do we put them? You know, we don' ; t have any place to store them. And that' ; s true. You know, in this in this weather, you know, lettuce that was picked 3 hours ago and is not properly washed and stored or whatnot will just wilt and be unedible. So they upped their technology enough that they could handle it and they, the populations they serve, that every time I go to the pantry and talk to somebody there, they say, you know, you should see the people- eyes light up when they see that there' ; s fresh produce here. That' ; s the first thing they go for, and the stuff they get from the community gardens or somebody' ; s backyard garden that' ; s donated and whatnot is usually fresher, probably better quality and things like that. And like, I' ; m interested in tomatoes, right? As most gardeners are, and I' ; m not so interested in hybrid tomatoes. I' ; m interested in heirloom tomatoes. And over twenty-five years or so of going through dozens of varieties and we' ; ve come down with a small group of heirloom tomatoes which are so superior to any other tomato you can get your hands on. Right. Those are the ones we donate to the pantry. It' ; s like, why shouldn' ; t they have as good a food as anybody else? And we get the fun of growing it. We get the fun of sharing it. And it' ; s educational to us because we learn, you know, what' ; s adapted to here and what does well. So it helps our overall learning, you know, how to garden well to grow these things and have a surplus so we can give them away. |01:09:10| Brody So it sounds like a win win. |01:09:12| Lambert Yeah. Yeah. |01:09:14| Brody There' ; s been a lot of talk in lots of cities, but in Dallas in particular about the concept of food deserts in some neighborhoods as a result of zoning or history, really not having access to fresh fruit and vegetables or, you know, or of healthy food in general. What role do you think community gardens can play in dealing with the problem of food deserts? |01:09:43| Lambert I' ; m not sure for Dallas because we don' ; t have sort of a well-organized, a well-organized program to support the needs that the garden has to thrive. And so if we, if we start gardens in impoverished neighborhoods say, we' ; re dealing with people who have all kinds of other problems and they don' ; t have the experience, the time, the resources, the money, whatever necessary to garden well. And if we don' ; t have organizations that have their back, that that are interested in the gardens enough that they' ; re going to be there to mentor them and to work with them no matter what. And so, I mean, our program has tried to do that, but it' ; s just like it' ; s just more than we can do. And so it takes a lot. Something bigger, but just a lot more organization and whatnot than we can muster here to make it so that I think community gardens could solve the food desert problem. And for example, with farmers markets now we sell produce at a market which goes for funds to support our program. But, you know, when we first started talking about starting neighborhood farmer' ; s markets, you know, people were talking about " ; This is a great idea. We could put a market in a food desert. And that way people who are poor would have access to fresh produce." ; Well, nobody can afford to buy, to buy the vegetables at the cost it takes to produce them in those neighborhoods. And we have programs like WIC and other buying programs where people are getting maybe $2 worth because it' ; s subsidized and whatnot at our markets. But the market is still not in the neighborhood, in the location and whatnot where it' ; s accessible. So, I don' ; t know. |01:11:55| Brody Some structural problems. |01:11:56| Lambert There' ; s some kind of more commercial type. I don' ; t know if they' ; re community gardens or not. They' ; re like farm, they call themselves farms that are trying to work in those areas. It remains to be seen whether they' ; ll have, you know, they' ; re all new. And, you know, I' ; m...I' ; ve seen a lot of new things not last very long. So I don' ; t know, you know, cross my fingers, it' ; d be great if they work out. But having the impact, you know, being, having a broad enough reach, it' ; s kind of hard to see. |01:12:33| Brody Yeah, that reminds me of earlier you were talking about when you first, early, when you were on the scene, were driving around and sort of visiting the different community gardens that existed already and kind of had in your mind that surely they' ; d all want to kind of join together. It sounds like that' ; s the same kind of thing that you' ; re saying is still kind of missing. |01:12:55| Lambert Yeah. If anything, that sense of " ; let' ; s do something with our group of people and you know, and not them, those others," ; it seems to be as strong as ever. And I mean, like a let' ; s say a church has a space and so they decide to start a garden for their youth group. Right. They usually limit themselves already to where they can' ; t succeed because that youth, those people grow up pretty quick. Right? And new people don' ; t like to take on projects that other people started before it seems like. You see that in schools all the time. You know that the PTA or somebody starts some project and as soon as you get another batch of parents, another batch of kids, you know, they want to do another. They want to do their new, their own project. So I don' ; t know. |01:13:48| Brody Well, if you could wave a magic wand around this issue in this city, what are the main things that you would, that you would change? |01:14:01| Lambert I don' ; t know. It' ; s a systemic cultural thing. You know, there' ; s there' ; s not an orientation towards self-sufficiency and, you know, growing your own kind of things and whatnot, that is, seems to be a part of the culture in other cities that I' ; ve visited. But the stories that I' ; ve heard, you know, about somebody that had the idea to start a garden in some small town somewhere with some of the neighbors and whatnot, and within a matter of weeks they were planting and growing stuff because the land became available somehow or other and people showed up with stuff and whatnot. And next thing you knew, there were four gardens in their little town. And now I don' ; t know whether those lasted because I haven' ; t been able to keep touch with them. But that kind of eagerness, spontaneity of people coming together to do these kind of community projects, you know, just hasn' ; t happened here. And, and I also think that there' ; s a kind of a fear by people in positions of power that those folks that are maybe impoverished and whatnot, we don' ; t want them too organized. You know, they might feel that it' ; s a threat. You know, they might make demands that we don' ; t want to carry out. You know? |01:15:24| Brody It does sound like it' ; s a bunch of systemic problems. |01:15:27| Lambert Yeah, I think it is. I think it' ; s a systemic thing. |01:15:34| Brody The story, especially of the garden in East Dallas that some people call the Asian Garden, you know, it seems like it is born out of the role that food plays in people' ; s cultures. What are your thoughts around the role of food in communicating and transmitting culture? |01:16:02| Lambert It' ; s really central. You know, it was central in the America of my youth with the community I grew up in. You know, it' ; s like community picnics, you know, 4th of July celebrations, Thanksgiving and things like that, you know, it was all about food and bringing people together. And we had, I mean, my family had as many as seventy-five people come together for things to celebrate Thanksgiving with a huge, you know, all the spread, you know, fixins to, you know, that' ; s kind of died out. But as I' ; ve looked at other cultures, you know, that have come in, that moved here and set up communities, it seemed like every single one of them has these big food fests going on. And my wife and I are members of the Malaysian Family Club. And we find out that there' ; s actually organizations just like that, there' ; s, you know, and with many other groups. And but they come up with excuses to have a big, you know, feast, shared community feast with each other several times a year routinely. We' ; ve been having a big Chinese New Year festival at a restaurant somewhere, which has been going on now for, oh, at least twenty years. And it kind of got shut down in COVID, you know? But, you know, it' ; s coming back. But I mean, food is far more important than anything else it seems like. You know, it' ; s our food, our dishes, our special national things that we celebrate, you know, who we are as people are just, you know. Sometimes it' ; s the only thing we' ; ve got. You know, we can sit down and eat food with the people we don' ; t really sometimes know that well or agree with on a lot of things. And we can talk about the food and about back home and growing up and all those things. Sure. Just celebrating life as a people together around food is just that' ; s what it' ; s all about. |01:18:23| Brody It' ; s really nice. So you' ; ve seen the Asian communities in Dallas grow significantly in the time that you' ; ve been here since 1982 1962. How would you characterize those communities and sort of the growth and the change that you' ; ve seen over time? |01:18:52| Lambert Well, the biggest change for for our group, for the Malaysian group, which were some, a mixture of ethnic groups, but is, has been the family and children and things like that. It' ; s been going on long enough that we' ; ve matured a lot and there aren' ; t as many young families joining. So we used to have- it was all about the kids and we would, you know, we' ; d teach the kids, you know, traditional dances and things like that and all of that. And now they' ; re teenagers or they' ; ve gone off to college, you know, and younger people aren' ; t joining in the same way. |01:19:36| Brody Why do you think? |01:19:38| Lambert I don' ; t know. It' ; s more, they' ; re more professional. It' ; s more about maybe just globalization. I don' ; t know. They' ; re you know, they' ; re just connected to other things. And, you know, family, in that sense, is not as important. But they' ; re also startign their own families, their own groups. I mean, just like I mean, just like in our culture, you know, it was aunts and uncles, the grandparents of my generation, you know, and they would, that brought this big group of people together. But every single one of those families now, you know, is doing their own celebrations. So once you get to be a senior, you know, most of the people you interacted with around food, you know, as when you were younger, you know, are off doing their own thing. I mean, it' ; s that, I guess, is the way it has to be, but I don' ; t know. The...So we went to, we would meet at households early on and it got to be where nobody' ; s house was big enough. And then we went through a phase of renting a hall somewhere or a restaurant, you know. We got too big for that, you know. So once you get past three or four hundred people, you know, it gets really hard to get together an event around food. And so now it' ; s splintering off into several of those littler groups. |01:21:06| Brody Interesting. In terms of the gardens and the organizations that you' ; re involved in, what impact, if any, did COVID have on your operations? |01:21:20| Lambert You know, it didn' ; t have that much of an impact because gardens are a safe place. Everybody saw them as a relatively safe place. And so there was very little fear about catching COVID when you' ; re out in the open air, in the sunshine, and whatnot in the garden. And, you know, people in a garden can choose to work close together or they can find something, you know, far apart. And so people were more sensitive, masked up and avoided other people, but were still there. You know, you could still have conversations with friends. In some way, in some areas there was more intensity because the fact that, you know, being able to get out, you know, is really important and people couldn' ; t find safe places to go, so now they maybe went to the garden much more often and they were much more conscientious about the importance of growing food for other people that needed it. So yeah, we, we felt we were really lucky in a way that we never felt I mean, if you have a yard, you can escape to your backyard. We have a big backyard garden. But we have three other gardens we can escape to with other groups of people, you know. So, yeah. |01:22:41| Brody How about the tornadoes or the ice storm? Were you impacted at all? |01:22:46| Lambert Yeah, well, the the weather itself has been really crummy, you might say, for gardening in the last couple of years. The episodes of colder than normal and warmer than normal, you know, droughts and then too much rain and things like that, as has done a lot to change, you know, kind of the ecology of the gardens, the populations of pests and things like that have been altered in ways sometimes very hard to control. Like this spring, we had what we call the aphid apocalypse in which, you know, everybody had aphids so bad in their garden because we probably lost a lot of the predators. And just the timing, the sequencing of hot and cold, it made it so that they flourished when other things didn' ; t and there was nothing to control them. And I mean, at times it gets so hot. You can' ; t I mean, we' ; re limited here because it' ; s too hot in the summer for a lot of the stuff that people want to grow. You can' ; t grow tomatoes. Well, basically right now, the temperatures at night are close to 80, right? Once you get past 80 at night, there' ; s no more tomatoes setting. Right. So you' ; re liable to get maybe only six weeks when the weather' ; s cool enough, you know, to set tomatoes. Well, that seems to be getting shorter. So it was too cold for too long and now it' ; s getting too hot at night. It' ; s like so yeah our weather, and but it changes so we never know how to what strategy to use. So usually what people do is they, they over plant, you know they, instead of planting once they' ; ll plant something and they' ; ll plant a little more of it a week later, you know, just in case things don' ; t work out. So we' ; ve had to adjust our strategy a lot. It takes more time, more energy, is more costly, takes more seed, everything you know, to keep up. But since we' ; re really into food production and food is something that' ; s needed every day of the year, basically, you know, we' ; re not, we' ; re not inclined to do that. But there' ; s some people who garden as a hobby, you might say, and they go out and they plant and if that doesn' ; t make it, that' ; s sort of it. They don' ; t have much garden this year. |01:25:23| Brody Right. The stakes are higher for you. |01:25:25| Lambert Yes. Yeah, the stakes are very high. And if our if our if like our East Dallas Community Garden and Live Oak Community Garden cannot grow enough food for those that population, then then being able to afford to help pay the water bill can' ; t happen. We can' ; t charge them enough to pay the water bill anyway. We cover that from our market takes. But the we' ; ve had we had to raise the fee a couple of times, you know, because the water got so expensive because of the prolonged drought and the price of water has increased dramatically too. And, and I don' ; t know, maybe the biggest impact that' ; s coming about right now is things like the materials you need to build the gardens have gotten so expensive. Like we cannot afford lumber, right? We can' ; t repair gardens. We certainly can' ; t build a garden now. You know, it would be...You know, back in the nineties, I could build a garden for twenty people or twenty families for $4000. If we had a fence already, that might cost another couple. Right. But the idea of spending as much as $10,000, you know, to get fifteen or twenty people into a garden, you know, was ridiculous. Some people did that because they wasted money on things that, you know, they over overdid it, built things that were not efficient. |01:27:03| Brody It' ; s gotten a lot more challenging. |01:27:08| Lambert When you garden a lot, you get cramps in your legs. |01:27:13| Brody Well, I want to say thank you. Is there anything that I have not asked you that you want to add to this interview? |01:27:24| Lambert Only that I think my wife and I have considered ourselves so fortunate to sort of just fall into this, you know, thing that we' ; ve been doing for the last thrity-five years. It' ; s just been a wonderful life. Well, that' ; s a name of a...But it' ; s just been so filling. And I mean, all the people that we' ; ve met and all the people we' ; ve been able to bring together and all of those people that have just found some happiness and whatnot and health through, you know, what they could grow and being able to stuff and, and the fact that we have so many people that we have something to talk to about, you know, that we know something about that other people are interested in. So, you know, you know, my wife is the garden lady and I' ; m the garden guy, you know. |01:28:27| Brody And it sounds like a wonderful life and very fulfilling and that, you know, you' ; ve definitely made and left a great legacy here in Dallas. |01:28:37| Lambert And I guess the other thing is, speaking of the COVID period, I mean, there' ; s a lot of talk about this that people have started gardens and things, but it' ; s like all of our friends who used to come to our backyard garden and ooh and ahh over it and get vegetables from us and stuff once in a while, almost all of them started gardens in the last couple of three years and it' ; s gotten really fun. Now when we go to over, you know the thing go out in the backyard and see their gardens. People who didn' ; t garden before, you know, maybe because they know us, but at least we were a source of plants and information and things like that. That' ; s been useful to our closest friends. You know? |01:29:17| Brody That' ; s great. And you can see that. |01:29:19| Lambert They thought we were just weird people at one point, I think. And now they' ; re doing it, too. |01:29:24| Brody That' ; s wonderful. Well, you get the last laugh as well. Thank you very much for sitting for this interview and for sharing all of your memories and experiences. I appreciate it a lot and I know that future scholars will as well. |01:29:39| Lambert It' ; s been a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. |01:29:42| Brody You' ; re welcome. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Don Lambert, May 30, 2022
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2021oh002_di_014
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Community gardens
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2022-05-30
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Betsy Brody
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Jack Kang
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5.4 Interview with Jack Kang, May 18, 2022 2021oh002_di_013 01:30:13 ohdi Digging In di001 How Food, Culture, and Class Shaped Asian Dallas Becoming Texans, Becoming Americans This project is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship. Asian Americans Texas--History Cooking, American Cooking, Chinese Cooking, Japanese Jack Kang Betsy Brody wav oh_dig_audio_kang_jack_20220518.wav 1:|15(1)|23(12)|44(8)|58(4)|71(12)|83(12)|98(7)|113(2)|121(5)|136(6)|153(1)|161(13)|172(9)|184(17)|202(8)|211(9)|226(16)|242(7)|253(5)|263(9)|277(6)|290(4)|300(2)|311(5)|320(3)|330(14)|339(16)|357(6)|370(6)|377(7)|390(13)|401(6)|415(11)|430(2)|439(16)|449(15)|460(15)|473(11)|484(16)|499(3)|507(11)|516(3)|527(3)|537(10)|548(5)|558(14)|572(4)|589(3)|602(14)|619(9)|631(6)|639(14)|652(7)|669(7)|680(6)|693(4)|702(7)|714(6)|723(16)|741(5)|753(5)|763(1)|774(7)|785(11)|794(6)|806(11)|817(10)|828(9)|837(9)|849(13)|859(13)|876(3)|888(13)|899(1)|912(6)|925(14)|937(8)|945(13)|956(7)|964(4)|978(7)|990(5)|1001(1)|1017(1)|1031(9)|1040(5)|1051(1)|1060(7)|1072(7)|1090(1) 0 https://betsybrody.aviaryplatform.com/embed/media/159921 Aviary audio 3 Introduction Asian Americans ; Cooking, American ; Cooking, Chinese ; Texas--History 28 Moving to the United States from Taiwan education ; family ; Plano ; restaurant ; Taiwan 271 Opening Nakamoto's Sushi and Mr. Wok in Plano Anzu ; Chinese restaurant ; Japan ; Mr. Wok ; Nakamoto ; restaurant ; Rice Bowl ; Simon Chen ; Soda ; sushi ; Sushi Sake ; Uncle Tai 622 Mr. Wok and Kang's Cafe/Menu Chinatown ; Japan ; Japanese ; Kang's Cafe ; menu ; Mr. Wok ; palate 33.0186765330977, -96.67984549630737 17 970 Cooking and serving Peking Duck and Beggar's Chicken Beggar's Chicken ; cooking ; menu ; Mr. Wok ; Peking duck 1263 Mr. Wok's customer demographics and atmosphere BYOB ; customers ; Dallas ; foodies ; Mr. Wok ; Plano 1399 Converting an old Pizza Hut into Mr. Wok advertising ; celebrations ; design ; family ; fire ; interior design ; Kang' Cafe ; Mr. Wok ; Pizza Hut ; remodel 1829 Neighbors neighbors 1918 Considerations in designing the menu approachable ; authentic ; authenticity ; business ; Chinese restaurant ; educate ; education ; Japanese ; menu ; palate ; western palate 2084 Thoughts about fusion cuisine and authenticity adventurous ; authentic ; authenticity ; bridge ; Cantonese ; Chinese restaurant ; comfort food ; Dallas ; dumb down ; flavor ; flavors ; foodies ; fusion ; Japanese ; ramen ; regulars ; Singapore ; sweet and sour chicken ; Szechuan ; University of Texas at Dallas ; UTD 2681 Sourcing the ducks for Peking Duck celebrations ; New Year ; Peking duck ; suppliers 2897 Kang takes over Mr. Wok after his father's retirement business ; Kang's Cafe ; landlord ; lease ; Mr. Wok 3052 Experiences with restaurant reviews in local food media D Magazine ; Dallas Morning News ; Dallas Observer ; menu ; Mr. Wok ; Peking duck ; restaurant reviewer ; restaurant reviews ; reviews 3226 Impact of social media advertising ; Asian Grub in DFDub ; COVID ; fire ; negative reviews ; restaurant reviews ; reviews ; social media ; Yelp 3346 Fire at Mr. Wok fire ; menu ; Mr. Wok ; remodel 3639 Celebrities at Mr. Wok Beggar's Chicken ; celebrities ; Dallas Cowboys ; Dallas Stars ; Ichiro Suzuki ; Phil Costa 3786 Discrimination and racism/Thoughts about hospitality competition ; discrimination ; English ; hospitality ; language ; racism 4008 Expectations and training of employees employees ; hospitality ; labor ; remodel ; training 4333 Decision to remain BYOB alcohol ; BYOB ; liquor ; permits ; Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission ; zoning 4424 Competition and community among Asian restaurant owners Asian community ; Chinese restaurant ; community ; competition ; competitor ; Peking duck 4609 Being a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant/Thoughts about expansion brand ; business ; expand ; expansion ; mom and pop ; relationship 4728 Mr, Wok's brand and atmosphere brand ; BYOB ; Chinese restaurant ; family run restaurant ; family style ; hospitality ; Mr. Wok ; Peking duck 4964 Impact of COVID, tornado, and ice storm COVID ; fire ; ice storm ; pivot ; remodel ; supply chain ; tornado 5063 Reflections on challenges of running a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant business ; celebrity chef ; city ; cooking show ; health department ; mom and pop ; permits ; social media |00:00:03| Brody This is Betsy Brody. Today is May 18th, 2022. I' ; m interviewing for the first time Mr. Jack Kang. This interview is taking place in my home office in Richardson, Texas. This interview is possible thanks to the support of a Mellon/ACLS Community College Faculty Fellowship and is part of the project entitled " ; Digging In: How Food, Culture and Class Shape the Story of Asian Dallas." ; All right, Jack, thank you so much for coming and to start out with. Why don' ; t you tell me where and when you were born? |00:00:36| Kang So I was born in 1978 in Taipei, Taiwan. |00:00:44| Brody What brought you to Texas? |00:00:47| Kang Well, we first immigrated to America in 1981, and our first stop was Nashville, of all places. One of my parents friends owned a restaurant there, a Polynesian restaurant, and he sponsored my parents as his employees. So that' ; s how we were able to come to the States. And so we stayed there for about a year. And my aunt was living here in Plano at the time with her three kids. And so she convinced us to move to Plano from Nashville, which Nashville was a big culture shock to my parents, right? I mean, growing up in Taipei and, you know, they spent all their lives there and then they moved to Nashville. And this was back in the early eighties before it was hip and trendy as it is now. So they, so we made the move to Plano in 81. I think we just missed, like, the hottest summer. I think, I think it was 80 the year before. So we started in Plano and I' ; ve been here ever since. No one, none of my family or extended family is here. They are eventually all moved on. |00:02:14| Brody You stayed? |00:02:15| Kang Yeah. And I stayed? |00:02:16| Brody Yeah. What were your parents' ; names? |00:02:19| Kang My dad' ; s name' ; s R.C. R dot C, and my mom' ; s name was Ann. A-N-N. |00:02:28| Brody So was Plano less of a culture shock for them than Nashville? |00:02:33| Kang I think so, yeah. |00:02:36| Brody What did they like about it? |00:02:39| Kang They...They definitely liked the schools. They liked the, the school district. I remember...My parents driving us up to Plano East Senior High School not long after it just opened. I think it opened 82. And we, they probably took us up there either that year or the year after and, well, for whatever reason, we went up there like 9 p.m. and they were driving around. I think they were driving around on the sidewalk where they' ; re not supposed to, but they were, we were all blown away. I mean, it was to them it was like a college campus, right? I mean, you know, four, five, multiple buildings, and and it still is. I mean, I think they just celebrated or yeah, this year is their 40th year. So I was up there last week with my son. I took him to a Jazz Band concert and I was showing him around, you know, daddy' ; s school and everything. And yeah, it was it was still quite impressive, you know, how large it is for a senior high that' ; s just 11th and 12th graders. So. |00:03:52| Brody So education was important to them? |00:03:54| Kang Yes, yes, yeah. Education was important to them. And that' ; s why we moved here from Taiwan. So they could give us a better life. Not, not to say that the education in Taiwan is lacking, because it certainly isn' ; t. But I think they just wanted us to grow up in America. |00:04:17| Brody Do you have siblings? |00:04:19| Kang I do. I have an older brother, David. He' ; s in Raleigh, North Carolina. |00:04:31| Brody So what did your parents do for work once they got here? |00:04:35| Kang So yeah, so in a Nashville they, they worked for their family friend, at that Polynesian restaurant and I still remember that restaurant was cool because all the drinks had the little tiki, whatever you call that thing, umbrellas, right. It was all tropical and so they were working there. And I think my dad was a dishwasher there and my mom was front of the house, and then once they moved here to Dallas, to Plano, my dad was working for Uncle Tai, this Chinese restaurant that was on the third floor of the Galleria, I believe. And so he worked there for a few years and then and then worked at Rice Bowl and Plano off and 75 because it was much closer to the house. And during that time, my mom was you know, she was staying at home raising us, and then she was working at Burger King part time to gain cashier experience there. |00:05:51| Brody So back in in Taiwan, had they been involved in food related businesses at all? |00:05:57| Kang They were not. No, they were not. My dad was an executive at a tire company. My mom was in radio for the Army there. Well, my dad was somewhat, I mean, he got his masters in Yokohama, Japan, so he lived there for three or four years. But during that time, his, because his uncle in law had a Chinese restaurant in Yokohama, and so, you know, being a college student, he was working there part time. |00:06:36| Brody So he did have some experience. |00:06:37| Kang So he did. Yeah. Yeah. But he didn' ; t know. At that time, he had no clue that he was going to ever be in the restaurant business. |00:06:45| Brody So how did that happen? |00:06:49| Kang Well, so, after my dad was working at Rice Bowl, he, him and his sister, my aunt, they opened up, Nakamoto' ; s sushi restaurant in Plano off Parker. And so that opened in 85 I believe. And then so they, they were doing that together for about four years. And then my dad branched out and he opened Mr. Wok in 89. And so he was the chef there and he trained all the other employees and staff how to cook and the rest is history. |00:07:37| Brody Yeah. Yeah. Just going back for a second. So your aunt and your dad opened up Nakamoto. So they were the owners? |00:07:46| Kang Yes. |00:07:46| Brody Okay. And so, how did they find like sushi chefs and all of, you know, how did that all go? |00:07:55| Kang Yeah. So both of them spoke Japanese. My dad and my aunt speak Japanese. And so that helped in their search for a sushi chef. I think it was probably a friend of a friend that introduced them to him. And, and actually that was actually Soda. So Soda that owns Sushi Sake started off at, at Nakamoto' ; s. So I' ; ve seen, I' ; ve known Soda since the eighties and I' ; ve seen his kid, you know, grow up. What' ; s his kid' ; s name? T.J., is this kid? Yeah. Yeah. So I' ; ve known Soda, and then after Soda left and opened up Sushi Sake, then Simon Chen, who was the assistant head sushi chef got promoted to sushi chef. And he was the sushi chef for a number of years. And he opened his own restaurant. Simon Sushi right off Plano Parkway there. So, yeah, so I grew up eating really good sushi. I was spoiled. |00:09:08| Brody That' ; s amazing. |00:09:09| Kang It hasn' ; t changed. Eating wonderful sushi. So. Well, that' ; s. |00:09:13| Brody Really interesting then that you have...You' ; re kind of bridging to different types of Asian food just in your own family and, and so then they left Nakamoto, but the restaurant continued to exist. |00:09:29| Kang Yes. Yes. So my aunt continued to own that. And then her daughter, my cousin Phina, was involved in the business as well and for a number of years. And then she opened up her own Pan-Asian restaurant in, off Knox Henderson called, what was the like? Anzu. So she was kind of a pioneer in the pan-Asian cuisine here in Dallas. She was I think she was probably about five or ten years too early for that. But nonetheless, you know, she did good and then she moved on and my cousins all live in New York City, you know? Yeah. |00:10:17| Brody Like you said, you' ; re the only one. |00:10:18| Kang Yeah. I' ; m the only one. |00:10:20| Brody So, so, back to Mr. Wok. So your parents decided to start Mr. Wok in 1989. Tell me about the restaurant. Tell me about what the goals were and the mission, I guess the vision for Mr. Wok. |00:10:35| Kang The vision was just to make a living, a decent living. The first few...the first couple of years, it was it was hard work, of course. You know, as any restaurant goes, you don' ; t make any money, you don' ; t even break even the first two years, you know, that' ; s, you kind of figure out if you' ; re going to make it or not. And so after that, they did well enough and then my dad had a vision of opening a second restaurant in the Las Colinas-Irving area. That catered more towards the Japanese clientele. There was, at that time, the early nineties, there were a lot of Japanese corporations that were based out in Las Colinas. NEC was a really big one and so, the first years at Mr. Wok he had, he had built up his Japanese following as well. You know because he spoke Japanese and he cooked Chinese food that was kind of catered towards the Japanese community because again, going back to him, living in Yokohama, which is the largest Chinatown in Japan. He- that restaurant that he worked at, his uncle' ; s restaurant, you know, a lot of their Chinese food was catered towards to Japanese clientele. So he actually did, I guess, pick up some of the recipes from there and, you know, started serving those dishes at Mr. Wok and then built up the following and then went to open Kang' ; s Cafe in 93 out in Irving. And so he had a very large Japanese clientele, you know, businessmen, large corporate functions, private parties and whatnot. It was a much larger space than Mr. Wok. And so... |00:12:47| Brody So Mr. Wok served both sort of Japanese-ish... |00:12:51| Kang Yeah. So. So, yeah. So we kind of, at that time, we had three different menus. We had kind of our western menu, and then we had a Chinese menu that was that catered towards the Chinese clientele, and then we had a Japanese menu. And so that was kind of overwhelming at times. |00:13:16| Brody Tell me about that. What was the thinking behind doing that and how did it actually pan out for you? What was, what was overwhelming? How did, how was it received? |00:13:27| Kang Oh, it was it was overwhelming, just in terms of the number of items on on the menu. In terms of training new employees in order to get them up to speed on either, you know, order taking or recognizing the dishes or teaching them how to cook the dishes and just stocking, you know, all the inventory and whatnot. It was it was quite a bit of inventory and items that we had to stock. And so how did that pan out? That...Yeah, we went along with that for a number of years and it worked out once he opened his restaurant, the other restaurant, Kang' ; s Cafe, he combined the Chinese and the Japanese menu into one. So at that point we just had two menus, the English menu and then the Asian menu. |00:14:28| Brody At both restaurants? |00:14:30| Kang At Kang' ; s Cafe. |00:14:33| Brody Okay. |00:14:33| So. Mr. Wok, we had all three. So we had sold Mr. Wok, the business. We kept the building. So we sold our business in 96, and then we took it back in 99. And then I started running it in 2000. |00:14:53| Brody Okay. |00:14:57| Kang And so from 2000 to 2006, nothing much was changed. I added a few items here and there, but the overall look of the menu and the interior, I didn' ; t really do anything with that. And in 2006, I decided to revamp and kind of updated the menu to make it more modern. You know, did a website. Then I combined the Japanese and the Chinese menu into one and then we started serving a lot of Peking Ducks around that time because going back to Kang' ; s Cafe, so we had that from 93 to 2005. My dad wanted to retire, so he didn' ; t want to run that anymore. So 2005. And then so he was doing, he was serving Peking Duck out of that restaurant. We weren' ; t serving any duck at Mr. Wok at the time. And then so once he closed down Kang' ; s Cafe, then we moved the duck operations to Mr. Wok and then it just grew exponentially from there. |00:16:08| Brody Yes. So tell me all about that duck and from sort of start to finish, like sourcing, cooking and ordering and serving. |00:16:20| Kang Sure. Yeah. It' ; s, it' ; s a whole process. So we get our ducks in. They' ; re Grade A from Long Island. So they' ; re, they' ; re very lean. And then we marinate the ducks the night before, and then we got to pump the ducks with air. And that separates the skin and the meat. |00:16:40| Brody So pump them with air. How? |00:16:43| Kang With an air compressor. So you tie up the, the bottom of the duck and then you insert the air compressor around the neck and then that will separate the skin and the meat. That way when you go to cook the duck, it crisps up the skin a lot more than if we didn' ; t do that process. So, so it' ; s a 24 hour process that, that goes into it, and it' ; s served with your steamed pancakes or steamed buns, some green onion and some hoisin sauce. And then we take the bones back to the kitchen and we' ; ll chop it up and either, cook a soup from that or stir fry the bones, which is actually very popular as well. |00:17:35| Brody And on the customer side, do they need to order ahead or? |00:17:41| Kang Both? So we recommend them order ahead, but we do prepare extras every day and it' ; s first come, first serve. |00:17:51| Brody And then so on, also on the customer side, what is the experience when your duck comes to the table? |00:17:56| Kang Yeah, so we, so we carve the duck tableside, which is really neat. You know, that' ; s always a big presentation and we' ; ll bring it out and either me or one of my staff will carve the duck right there, and, you know, you' ; re getting all the meat off of it and the skin and, you know, and then, then we take the bones back to the kitchen. And so people like to, you know, bring their friends and kind of show them the whole experience, give them the whole duck experience. And, and that' ; s really cool. You know, we' ; ve gotten lots of great, you know, feedback and awards and whatnot from our duck and other dishes as well. Beggar' ; s Chicken is another dish that we' ; re known for as well. And that, that' ; s very rare now. It' ; s hard to find because it takes a lot of time to cook and labor. And so it' ; s very labor and time intensive. And so what that is, is it' ; s a...We start with a whole chicken, roasting chicken and then we' ; ll stuff the inside cavity with Chinese sticky rice that' ; s been blended with some Cantonese sausage, some shitake mushrooms, some shallots. So that goes inside of the chicken. And then we wrap the entire chicken in lotus and bamboo leaves. And then finally we encase the chicken in a bread dough. And so that cooks for 22 hours in the oven. So it basically it slow roasts. It basically cooks in its own, in that shell, right? So when it comes out of the oven that, that bread shell has hardened, and it' ; s about an inch and a half thick. And then we bring it to the table and the guest of honor or whoever wants to do it, they come up and they, and they try to crack it open with a mallet. And that' ; s always fun because then the whole restaurant' ; s, you know, looking and staring at like, " ; What is that?" ; And they' ; ve never seen anything like that before. So. So then we proceeded to cut into it and then cut away the leaves and all that, and then they just basically take a spoon and just spoon out the chicken. It is really tender at that point. |00:20:17| Brody That sounds really good. So both of those dishes that you' ; re describing are kind of a spectacle. Was that kind of part of the goal of the type of restaurant that your parents and you wanted to run where you could have this kind of experience? |00:20:34| Kang No, no. Funny thing is, that wasn' ; t ever, you know, the initial goal of the restaurant. It was just, you know, going back, it was just a " ; Let' ; s cook some good food, let' ; s see what happens." ; And then, you know, let' ; s see what works and what doesn' ; t work. And so, fortunately, you know, Peking Duck is one of those dishes that did work. |00:21:01| Brody Yeah. So who are your typical customers? Or even was there a typical at Mr. Wok? |00:21:11| Kang Everyone, really. We had a whole spectrum of customers, you know, young, old, minorities, Asian, you know. You know, people from traveling from as far away as Frisco, Lewisville. You know, we' ; re in east Plano, so we' ; re not exactly...Well, during the week we' ; re kind of the, the neighborhood restaurant, right, where we have a lot of the locals within a three mile, five mile radius of us come and visit us. But then on Fridays and Saturdays, on the weekends, we have a lot of customers that travel from farther away, right? We' ; ve got a lot from the north Dallas area, Highland Park, University Park. So yeah, it becomes a destination restaurant on the weekends. And it helps that we' ; re BYOB too. So you' ; re welcome to bring your own wine and beer and, you know, that' ; s really kind of, that' ; s helped quite a bit as well. Being BYOB, you get a lot of foodies, right? So people that enjoy their own, their own selection of wine, right? And so, you know, they come in and, you know, we provide the glasses, we open it up, open up the bottle for them. And, you know, they proceed to enjoy their meal. And at the end, they' ; re always shocked. They' ; re always shocked at how low the total bill is because, you know, if they were to dine out somewhere else and have to order that bottle of wine, it would be obviously three x that price. So they' ; re always, yeah, so people really enjoy coming in and it' ; s a really fun atmosphere and the people just have a great time. It' ; s a small 80 seat restaurant and, by the end of the night, everyone' ; s sharing wine with the other tables. And so, yeah, it' ; s...Yeah, it' ; s fun. |00:23:18| Brody Tell me about at its peak, what the inside of the restaurant looked like. What was the decor? What was the sort of the vibe? |00:23:27| Kang Yeah. So, at the peak, it was, not much was changed from Pizza Hut. Oh. So, yeah, it used to be a Pizza Hut. It used to be a Pizza Hut from 75 to 88. And then, and I' ; ll go into that story in a bit, but...So it was low ceilings. It was eight feet ceilings. You know, we actually used the booths and the tables, but the shape of the windows, it' ; s very distinctively Pizza Hut, right? What is that shape called? A trapezoid? Trapezoidal windows? Which made trying to buy blinds a major issue because you' ; d have to go with custom blinds at that point. But anyway, so it was, it was very cozy. We had nine booths and then we had three round tables in the middle. And so, you know, each round table sat between 12 and 16 people. And so we would have a lot of large parties come in and, yeah, a lot of birthday parties, a lot of celebrations. People made fond memories there. And then we had a fire in 2019. And so I took that opportunity to remodel the interior of it. We basically gutted the entire thing except the four walls. So the four walls were the same, but everything on up, a completely new roof, a completely new ceiling. We opened it up. We' ; ve got exposed trusses now and exposed ductwork. And so it looks a lot more up to date. Let' ; s see. Yeah. Everything' ; s is just new. Got rid of the carpet. It' ; s tile now. It' ; s, you know, updated the bathrooms as well. Kind of...I don' ; t know, kind of that modern, mid-century modern farmhousey look, I guess, that' ; s trending everywhere these days. |00:25:47| Brody So how did the Pizza Hut end up being the Mr. Wok? |00:25:54| Kang So around that time, 1988, 89, my parents were looking to open a Chinese restaurant, and we had gone out as far as Corsicana to look at a restaurant that was for sale. And my parents knew that they wanted a freestanding building, and so it wasn' ; t until...So, I was in fifth grade and we had a reading club. So if you read X amount of books, you would get a free pizza from Pizza Hut. Of course, I wasn' ; t a big reader, so I never got the pizza, but one day one of my classmates, she asked the teacher in front of the class. She said, " ; Hey, um, the Pizza Hut' ; s closed, so, you know, where do we go to get our pizzas now?" ; And, you know, little ten year old me, like this light bulb went off in my head. And so that afternoon I went back home, got off from school, you know, went back home, and I told my dad I was like, " ; Hey, Dad, there' ; s a Pizza Hut somewhere around here that' ; s closed." ; And so we found out where it was, and we drove up there that afternoon, and he, he walked around the inside of the building. Of course, it was locked but he, you know, he peered inside the windows and really liked the layout and everything. And I think the next week, he, they signed the lease. So thank you, Delta Perez, wherever, wherever you are out there. She' ; s the one that asked the teacher about the Pizza Hut. |00:27:33| Brody Did your parents give you a finding fee? |00:27:35| Kang No. No, they, they should have. I need to get with him on that. Yeah. |00:27:40| Brody That' ; s funny. So how did people find you? |00:27:45| Kang Well, the first few years, and as a family, we would walk around the local neighborhoods and pass out fliers and hang fliers on doors. You know, my brother and I...We, you know, I said I was in fifth grade, sixth grade, he was eighth grade at the time. We' ; d roll up fliers and hang them on doors. And it was, it was a lot of word of mouth and even now we don' ; t advertise anywhere. It' ; s just, you know, we grow organically and people just bring other people. And, so, yeah, we' ; re extremely fortunate that it' ; s, that it' ; s worked out that way. |00:28:27| Brody Now, your dad had already, you know, worked at several restaurants as well as owned a restaurant in Nakamoto. So he had some experience in dealing with the city and the health inspectors and things like that. But can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like for him in opening Mr. Wok and Kang' ; s Cafe? |00:28:49| Kang Honestly, I don' ; t know much about that part of it, of him dealing with the city and doing all that. I do know a little bit about what he had to go through in terms of, you know, finding a general contractor for Kang' ; s Cafe. And because he, he had a particular vision in his mind of how he wanted it to look. He was, he was, he' ; s extremely good at that aspect of, of... Just of the interior design aspect of it, where he' ; ll go somewhere and maybe see something at another restaurant or a hotel or something and he' ; ll make a mental note or a sketch of it and then, he' ; ll use that or incorporate that into the design. So, yeah, it was, Kang' ; s Cafe, it had the, the painted wispy cloud ceiling, which I think was the first in the Dallas area. And it was, it was, it turned out really great. I mean, it, you know, if you' ; re looking at it for more than 20 seconds, you could zone out and you would imagine yourself in the clouds there. So it that was, I think, the the one defining feature of Kang' ; s Cafe. And he... I don' ; t know where he saw that at, but he knew that he wanted that when he saw it. |00:30:27| Brody Right. In either one of those locations was, did you have neighbors that were other restaurants or other businesses that you had interactions with? |00:30:39| Kang So Mr. Wok is a freestanding building, so we did not have any interactions with, our neighbor is a car wash. Oh, we don' ; t have any interaction with them. Kang' ; s Cafe, that was in a retail strip center where there' ; s a very popular and, I' ; m not sure if they' ; re still there or not, it' ; s a Louisiana restaurant called Po Melvin' ; s, and they were always really busy. And so their staff and the owner would come by, like on their break on a random, you know, Friday night at 5:00 and then, have some beverages and then go back to work. And so we, we got to know them, quite well. There were, there weren' ; t any other restaurants in that shopping strip at that time. It was just Kang' ; s Cafe and Po Melvin' ; s. And there was a Thai restaurant across the street called Pad Thai. Don' ; t know if that' ; s still there or not, but I think they were a fairly popular Thai joint. |00:31:58| Brody During that time period, you mentioned that your clientele ran the whole spectrum, they' ; re all different types of people. And, you know, and you also had the different, three different menus, right? The Chinese menu and Japanese menu and the Western style menu. So did you have a large Asian population that were your customers? |00:32:21| Kang Yeah. Yeah, we did. You know, Kang' ; s Cafe, probably, I don' ; t know the breakdown of it. I couldn' ; t even guess. Probably more than 50%. |00:32:35| Brody So in designing the menu, what were, what were the goals, I guess? Like some people that I' ; ve talked to, talk about that, when they were designing the menu of their restaurant, one part of it is obviously- and a large part of it- is obviously trying to think of things that people will actually buy. And, you know, it' ; s a business decision, but it sounds like for many people there' ; s also an education piece of it. That wanting to introduce and project the culture so other people can learn about it. |00:33:04| Kang Right. |00:33:05| Brody Where do you stand on those issues? |00:33:08| Kang Yeah. So, you know, absolutely. I agree. It' ; s you know, we had sections of it or certain items that were more popular that were, I would say approachable, that wasn' ; t too foreign. And then we had some items that were, a little bit, you know, like jelly fish and stuff on there. And, you know, that' ; s something that non-Asians don' ; t really eat or haven' ; t come across. And so we, we put it on there in the hopes that maybe they' ; ll, you know, try it and, you know, expand their palate on that. But, for the most part, I mean, most of. Probably half to three quarters of the Asian menu are items that are authentic to the Chinese culture. And the Chinese/Japanese culture. So, then we did introduce a few items to to the non-native, non-Asian clientele. So yeah. So absolutely, you know, you got to have items on there that, you know, people are going to order and you have to have a few items that you think, " ; Hey, this might work and this' ; ll, you know, expand people' ; s palate to other tastes and flavors" ; and give it a shot and if it doesn' ; t work. Just take it off. |00:34:44| Brody So, I mean, even just in light of your dad' ; s background and in Japanese culture and Japanese food, and the food that that they were serving was kind of a fusion in a way, way before people were using the term fusion. Was- when talking about authenticity, did you run into any questions or people trying to have difficulty maybe understanding where the Japanese piece of it was coming into the Chinese menu? |00:35:17| Kang Yeah. So we, we have a lot of ramen on our menu at one point, at Kang' ; s Cafe, I believe my dad had probably had over 30 different types of ramen and by ramen it' ; s not, I don' ; t mean the ramen that is trending now. Right? It' ; s not like the, the sliced pork belly and, uh, the soft boiled egg and the seaweed and the corn. It' ; s...So this is where the Chinese aspect of ramen comes in, in that all of our toppings are stir fried in the wok first. So the meats and the veggies and whatnot, you know, they' ; re, they' ; re, they' ; re sliced, they' ; re cut up, they' ; re stir fried in the wok, and then they' ; re, they' ; re laid on top of the noodles and the broth. Whereas a traditional Japanese ramen, right, the pork, the pork belly, that' ; s cooked ahead of time, the eggs cooked ahead of time. And then, you know, once the order comes in, they cook the noodles and then put it in, put it in the broth, and then take the slices of toppings and put it on top of that. So ours was, you know, we incorporate, incorporated that Chinese part of it, right, where we stir fried everything in the wok first and then laid that on top of the noodles and the soup. The broth was very similar, you know we had our, our pork broth. We had a shoyu broth, the soy broth and so broth were, were similar, but the toppings were not. So it was, it was a different experience. |00:37:01| Brody That' ; s really interesting. So when talking to people about Asian food and you mentioned earlier that a lot of your customers are foodies. One thing that seems to have happened in Dallas is that just at the time that the Asian population grew, people in general started getting more interested in eating things from other countries and cooking with things from other countries. So did you find that your customers were pretty, either curious or educated about the types of foods that you were serving? |00:37:40| Kang Yeah. So they would, you know, every often they would venture and order something off of the Asian menu. So they, they wanted to try something different. But I think in the restaurant business, in, probably in the majority of restaurants, you know, you' ; ll have regulars that will always just order between one to two or three different items that they know, that they' ; re comfortable with, that they' ; re familiar with. I think as a, I think just in general human nature, we just like something that' ; s, you know, within our comfort zone, I think the majority of people don' ; t want to step out of their comfort zone and try something different. And if they don' ; t like it, then, you know, " ; Oh, man, I should have ordered whatever, Sesame Chicken." ; So that, that I did notice that quite a bit. I mean, that' ; s, you know, that' ; s just the nature of things. You know, when I go out to eat, I tend to always order the same items as well, unless I' ; m really feeling adventurous that day. But generally I' ; m not. You know, people want comfort, right? People want something that they' ; re familiar with. You know, it' ; s like an old friend. It' ; s like going and seeing an old friend. |00:39:02| Brody So what does authenticity mean to you? The concept of authenticity when it comes to food. |00:39:11| Kang In general or are you talking about, like, Chinese food, like authenticity? |00:39:18| Brody Yeah. Either. Either way. In general. |00:39:20| Kang I think authenticity is using authentic ingredients. I try not to either dumb down flavors or overemphasize certain flavors. For example, I don' ; t know, let' ; s just say Sweet and Sour Chicken. You know, there is, there is a traditional Sweet and Sour Chicken version, and it' ; s not red. And it' ; s not red and it' ; s not as sweet. It' ; s actually a bit more sour than the Sweet and Sour Chicken you' ; ll find in a typical Chinese restaurant. But somewhere along the way, probably back in the mid 1900s when the Cantonese moved to New York, that' ; s when they brought over a lot of the recipes and, for some reason it turned really bright red through the use of food coloring and it became very sweet and just a heavy batter. And I think that that' ; s probably a result of their clientele...Their clientele at that time was kind of what they wanted or that' ; s what the restaurant owners thought they wanted, you know, like a heavy batter, like a fried chicken type batter. Right? As opposed to, like, a lighter batter. And so, yeah, I think, I think, you know, in the past ten years, with the explosion of different cultures in Dallas and ethnicities, you definitely see more restaurants are kind of sticking to their, you know, the, the traditional flavors and ingredients and then just not really, not really trying to accommodate and through no fault of their own, but not just, " ; Hey, like, this is what we serve," ; and because I think they know that they have the clientele to support that, you know, for example, Szechuan cuisine has exploded in Dallas in the past ten years. And so they, they still keep it really spicy and all the chili peppers. And because there' ; s been an explosion of Asians that have immigrated to Dallas, you know, starting from all the students that have studied at UTD, just a ton of exchange students, and which they eventually stay here and, you know, expand their family and whatnot. So it was around, I would say probably the around the 2010s or just a little bit before that, when you really saw a large influx of of Asians. |00:42:29| Brody So that' ; s interesting. You mentioned, you know, that " ; authentic" ; to you means, in a way, not dumbing down certain flavors. And that example you just gave of, you know, restaurants sort of sticking to, you know, whether it be really spicy...What, when you say " ; not dumbed down" ; like, do you think that there' ; s a flip side to that of sort of, you know, the word you used earlier was " ; approachable," ; that there are some items on your menu that are more approachable. Is there a sort of, in your thinking about the food that you' ; re serving, a gradual introduction that you' ; re trying to do to to get people to to move towards more adventurous eating by trying things that are more approachable to start with and then venturing forward or out. |00:43:23| Kang Oh, you mean like starting with one dish first and, you know, running that as a special and... Yeah, we' ; ve done that in the past when we' ; re you know, introducing a new item. For example, like years ago we introduced Singapore rice noodles and so that, that did really well. I didn' ; t know how people would take that because of the, the curry in it. But that did really well. And then I introduced a Thai Basil Noodle and that did really well as well. And then Thai Coconut Curry, which was one of our most popular dishes now. And, you know, just, you know, not and not certainly, certainly not just limited to Chinese dishes, of course. You know, got just a few Thai dishes and stuff. So just kind of giving them a variety of, of Asian, of Asian items on the menu. |00:44:39| Brody That' ; s interesting. Do you...You mentioned that your, the restaurant was really convivial, really, you know, sort of vibrant at its peak, with people celebrating birthdays and things like that. Were there things that you did like special events for cultural holidays or things like that? |00:44:59| Kang We did not. We did not only for the fact that around the holiday time, whether it be Chinese New Year or Western New Year or Christmas, we were always jam-packed. Always jam-packed. And so, there was no need in order to bring in extra business that we couldn' ; t handle. Right? We were at max capacity at that, you know, around the holidays. So it was just, you know, serving a bunch of ducks. Think our record for a day serving in the restaurant was we served, like gosh, nine...almost 90 Peking Ducks in a day. |00:45:55| Brody That' ; s a lot of ducks. |00:45:56| Kang That' ; s a lot of ducks and that' ; s a lot of carpal tunnel in the wrist at the end of the day. But it was worth it, though. It was fun. And, you know, it' ; s just yeah, it was, it was great. |00:46:09| Brody Back to the ducks. You mentioned that they were Grade A Long Island ducks. How did you decide on that sourcing and what is it the suppliers that you... |00:46:18| Kang So when my dad was in the process of sourcing ducks back when he had Kang' ; s Cafe, he had went through six or seven different brands and grades and not varieties, but just different grades, different brands of duck. And, you know, most of them were quite fatty. They were on the cheaper side as well. And so he came across this particular duck and really liked how it tasted, really liked how the fat, most of the fat would render during the cooking process and just leave the skin crispy and the meat nice and, nice and juicy. Yeah. Because I do hear comments from our customers and, you know, they' ; ll say, " ; Oh, you know, we tried duck at such and such place. And it was just, it was too fat and it was really greasy. And, you know, yours isn' ; t like that." ; And yeah. So, yeah, we do, you know, it costs us more for, for the ducks, but you know, the duck, at the end of the day, the customers do notice that and they appreciate that. |00:47:33| Brody Have you been using the same supplier for the whole time or has it changed and varied just so you can keep track of I mean, keep getting those kind of ducks. |00:47:40| Kang Oh yeah. I' ; ve added, I' ; ve added a few suppliers over the years. Because there...Well, I learned my lesson when my main supplier was out of ducks one time and I was like, " ; What?" ; That was a stressful moment. And so... |00:47:59| Brody I' ; m sure. |00:48:00| Kang So yeah. So then I had to start shopping around other, other suppliers and they, they had to get those ducks specially in for us because like I said, it was, it was a higher cost item and none of the other restaurants were using that, that brand or that quality of a duck. |00:48:17| Brody So your dad retired in 2005. Did you take over everything at that point? |00:48:23| Kang No. So he had sold Kang' ; s Cafe in 2005, which was a great call because that was out in Irving and I was living in Plano at the time and I had just moved to Plano. So the for the first four years of running Mr. Wok, I was living out in Coppell, and that was a painful drive every day. But so anyway, so I had just moved, I moved back to Plano and then he decided to sell Kang' ; s Cafe and I said, " ; Yeah, go for it. You know, you' ; ve been doing this for over 20 years. You know, it' ; s time to retire." ; And, you know, I didn' ; t want to run both of the restaurants, and I wanted to solely focus on Mr. Wok. And that property is ours. It' ; s, you know, a freestanding building. So, you know, a little, a little less stress in terms of, you know, don' ; t have to deal with a landlord or, you know, rent or...So a little lower overhead. |00:49:25| Brody So at that point, your family owned that building? Initially, it was a lease. Correct? |00:49:31| Kang Yeah. Yes. So they leased it from Pizza Hut for the first few years and then they purchased the building. |00:49:42| Brody Great. So you took over and so did you, had you studied or other than being in the restaurant growing up, had you, did you feel experienced and ready? |00:49:59| Kang No. I mean, you' ; re never really ready for...You' ; re never really ready for any job, I would say. But no, I majored in HR down at UT-Austin. And that was just corporate HR, so it wasn' ; t, it wasn' ; t a restaurant management program. So, no, I mean, I was, you know, I came, came into the restaurant, after I graduated and was kind of learning the ropes from my parents at the time. For about a year, about six months to a year, and then one day they just threw the keys at me. No they, they, yeah. So they, they wanted it to truly get out of the business then, and so I took over and, and, you know, I learned a lot, along the way as well. |00:50:52| Brody Yeah. What were some turning points for you? |00:50:57| Kang Turning points. So our biggest turning point was in 2006 when we had an excellent write up in the Dallas Morning News. And so that kind of trip started everything. You know, I said up until that point we hadn' ; t really advertised or anything. It was just all word of mouth. So that exposed a lot of people. So that was a big turning point. The other turning point was bringing in, bringing back the Peking Ducks, back from Kang' ; s Cafe. You know, moving the duck operations to Mr. Wok and that single handedly did...It was, I don' ; t know, what' ; s the word? Tremendous for us. So, so that definitely. Yeah. So those two turning points, I would say are the biggest turning points of Mr. Wok 2.0. 2.0 being when I came in and started managing the restaurant. |00:52:06| Brody Speaking of the Dallas Morning News and reviews and write ups, what...That one was notable. Were, do you have any stories or any memories related to reviews and reviewers in your restaurant? |00:52:26| Kang I mean, I always had a hunch who the reviewers were because, you know, it' ; d be, let' ; s say two of them, two people would come in, they, you know, ask to see the Chinese menu, they' ; d order ten, ten items. Ten dishes. You' ; re like, " ; Wait, wait, hang on, that' ; s like way too much food." ; And they' ; re like, " ; No, no, no. You know, it' ; s fine. We can take it home." ; So that' ; s very rare, right? So that sticks out. And they would and, you know, I would, I would chat with them and, just, you know, get to know them. And...But no, I never had a, I was never positive that they were the reviewers until that the review came out and I said, " ; Oh, okay, that, that' ; s the dishes that they had." ; You know, then I put two and two together and yeah. |00:53:17| Brody So, so the good reviews really did bring more customers in. |00:53:20| Kang Yeah, absolutely. The good reviews. We were in the Top 100 in D Magazine. We won best Chinese restaurant in The Observer one year. Of course, Dallas Morning News, the top ten Chinese restaurants. So I' ; d like to say we did the trifecta, the trifecta of print media in Dallas. |00:53:45| Brody That' ; s great. So that' ; s the official, you know, the official media. What about with the advent of social media and review sites like Yelp and TripAdvisor and things like that? What is your, what are your thoughts about that development? |00:53:58| Kang Yeah. So that definitely helps as well. Of course, that' ; s a double edged sword, right? If you don' ; t do well, if you don' ; t, you know, if you' ; re, if you' ; re lacking in service or food or atmosphere, whatever, and people are going to write about it on the social media sites. But if you do you know, do a good job and people recognize that and people see that you' ; re you genuinely enjoy what you' ; re doing and you' ; re trying your best...You know, I mean, every restaurant is going to have an off night or two, right? And so, you know, if they visit the restaurant on those off nights and they write a negative review, then, you know, most of time I' ; ll go on there and you know, try and explain what happened you know, offer them a second chance to dine in with us. But, yeah, social media that' ; s been huge, right? I mean, that again, that' ; s free advertising, that' ; s word of mouth, that' ; s just getting your name out there. Of course, you know, we dodged the whole COVID bullet because we were closed due to the fire. And, and so during that time, there' ; s that Facebook group, Asian Grub in DFDub, that' ; s I don' ; t know how many members now there are probably over 50,000 members, I don' ; t know. But that grew exponentially. And so and I know that' ; s helped quite a bit of, of Asian owned businesses and restaurants in general. And so, yeah, if I do decide to reopen, that will be a big part of getting our word out that, " ; Hey, we' ; re back in business." ; |00:55:44| Brody So, if you feel comfortable, tell me about the fire and sort of the aftermath of that for you as a restaurant owner. |00:55:55| Kang Yeah. So the fire happened on a Satur...Sunday night, overnight on a Sunday night in the morning, into Monday morning. We' ; re closed on Sundays, so I didn' ; t step foot in the restaurant all day Sunday. I got a phone call from my alarm company four am Monday morning. And, you know, they were saying, " ; Oh, the alarms going off." ; And, and we get some false alarms every once in a while, like once a month, once or twice a month would get just a random false alarm. And then so I assumed it was a false alarm. Plus I was...I had gone to a concert the night before, so I probably wasn' ; t in any shape to drive anyway. So, and then, so I just told them to cancel the alarm and then, the next morning, you know, I got up around ten and, and my, and my food supplier, the rep, the food rep calls me and she' ; s like, " ; Oh, the driver, the delivery driver is trying to drop off your order, but he said you had a fire," ; and I was like, " ; Huh? Okay." ; And so in my mind, I had no idea what the extent of the fire was. I...No, no, no...Like, I didn' ; t hear anything from anyone besides that phone call from the alarm company. And so I was like, " ; Oh, well, just go ahead and tell the driver to, to, to drop it off. Right?" ; And then she calls back a minute later, she' ; s like, " ; Uh, no. There the fires and it' ; s, it' ; s a serious, you got some serious damage." ; I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God." ; So, I' ; m freaking out. So in my mind, you know, like, to me, like, the whole building has just, like, been, you know, just leveled to, to, to rubble. But, so then around that time, I, you know, I' ; m getting myself dressed, I' ; m running out the door. My, my staff calls me because they, they get there around that time and they' ; re, you know, they' ; re like, " ; Oh, yeah, there was a fire, you know?" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, I' ; m on the way, you know?" ; Luckily, I live really close by. So I get there. I pull up, pull into the parking lot and don' ; t really see any damage. I was, that was not what I was expecting. You know, it looked fine from the front of that the street, from the front of the parking lot. Everything looked good till you pulled around and then, yeah, once we went inside the back door to the kitchen it was, it was. Yeah, it was all burnt. So, turned out it was an electrical fire. And so, yeah, that was...It was, it was shocking. Yeah, I, I, I' ; ve never been through anything like that before. So, you know, we got through it. It took almost two years to remodel. And, you know, but I wanted, I had a certain look that I wanted, and so it was actually a blessing in disguise that we were able to, build it back better than what it was. |00:59:09| Brody Yeah. That must have been really stressful and scary, though. |00:59:12| Kang Yeah. |00:59:14| Brody So the, the, the new look that you' ; re talking about, the remodel that came as a result of the fire damage. What are the, like what is the vision that you have for the restaurant going forward? You know, you have a loyal clientele, you have, you know, regulars and so forth. But with this new look and this feel, what are your hopes? |00:59:42| Kang I just want everyone to, you know, come back in and be able to experience what they, you know, what they experienced back in the past, but in a more updated modern environment. And, just that' ; s all I can ask for. |01:00:00| Brody Are you making changes to the menu? |01:00:04| Kang I plan on taking some items off, that weren' ; t big sellers. And so it just makes it easier to, to get into to streamlined training and because, as you know now, there' ; s a labor shortage in the restaurant industry. And so, you just kind of want to make things easier and faster for the employees to be able to learn and pick up. |01:00:41| Brody Yeah. During its peak, did you have among your clientele any celebrities or any any sort of really notable stories that happened in the restaurant? |01:00:51| Kang Yeah. So we, we did have some Dallas Cowboys that would come in and they tried, they tried cracking open that Beggar' ; s Chicken. And for us, you know, it was the 320 pound center back in the day, Phil Costa. He was one of the five cowboys that came in and, you know, I hand him the mallet, and he' ; s sitting there beating it and you can' ; t crack it open. And, like, the whole restaurant is just cheering him on, and he couldn' ; t do it, through no fault of his own. It' ; s, it doesn' ; t actually crack like, like an egg, like you would think it would just crack and all fall apart. But it' ; s like the outermost shell is, is, what' ; s the word? Is not crisp, not crunchy but I don' ; t know...the word escapes me. But, because it' ; s so thick, like beyond that first quarter inch, it' ; s somewhat pliable. So, so it doesn' ; t really all just crack. But anyway, so that was a fun experience. We had a one night one of our regulars brought in four of the Dallas Stars and they ordered four Peking Ducks between the five of them. They ordered four Peking Ducks. And they almost finished all of them. They ended up having to bring about one, on the plane on their, their road game the next day. They brought a duck and they had that on the plane. |01:02:29| Brody Wow. That' ; s impressive. |01:02:30| Kang Yeah. Yeah, we have Ichiro Suzuki, who was a wonderful player for the Mariners. He, he came in. Of course he ordered Chinese-Japanese items and, just a really nice guy that' ; s really down to earth. And, you know, just a lot of like local, famous celebrities, chefs and whatnot. So yeah. |01:03:06| Brody Did you ever run into any discrimination or racism in running these restaurants? |01:03:15| Kang No. No. We were very fortunate. Of course, you know, we' ; re by nature, we' ; re open to every custom, nationality, ethnicity. So there was never anything that I can think of off the top of my head. Of course, you know, it helped that I speak perfect English or I hope I speak perfect English. And so people wouldn' ; t have, you know, I don' ; t know. They wouldn' ; t have a reason to discriminate or I don' ; t know if my parents ever experienced that or not. They...I never heard any stories or anything like that. And we' ; re very hospitable restaurant owners, right? Being the owner myself, I was down in the trenches helping out staff or if they were ever in the weeds, I' ; d help them out. And I always make sure to, to greet most, if not all of my customers and then, you know, get to know them and get to know their names and their families. And so we that also helped grow our clientele quite a bit, just that personal touch. And that' ; s not something that...I think that' ; s something that you' ; re either born with or you' ; re not. You know, you, you either enjoy meeting people and talking to people and being quote unquote servant. You know, you' ; ve got to have that servant mentality to, to, to be in this business, right? It' ; s a, it' ; s a people business first and foremost. It' ; s, a second...It' ; s a food business, right? You just happen to be serving food, but it' ; s a people business at the end of the day. |01:05:13| Brody And you' ; re...This is sort of the same type of thing you' ; re talking about, but I wanted to ask you about what your philosophy around hospitality is. |01:05:24| Kang Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you' ; ve just got to be, you just got to respect people. You have to want to please people. You have to want to be able to go out of your way to do what you have to do to make sure that they' ; re taken care of and that they want to come back. And just getting to know them. Yeah. Just getting, getting to know the customers. That' ; s, that' ; s a big deal to them. You know, customers like to be recognized when they come in, right? And they' ; ll bring their friends and they' ; ll be like, " ; Oh, hey, hey, Jack." ; You know? And so it makes them look good when they know the owner, right? But I don' ; t do that. I don' ; t get to know them because of that fact. Right. It' ; s just. It' ; s just who I am. I just love talking to random people and meeting them, and, hey, you know what? At the end of the day, they probably drove by ten other Chinese restaurants to come to ours. So we' ; re extremely fortunate and honored that they would, that they would do that. Right. So, you got to pay it back. |01:06:49| Brody When you' ; re thinking about your employees, right? When you talked earlier about training and, you know, sort of trying to streamline the menu a little bit to help with training. What are the main things that you' ; re looking for when you' ; re bringing someone on board to be to be part of your restaurant family? |01:07:14| Kang Yeah. So first and foremost, you want them to have an outgoing personality. Of course, you know, you can' ; t be a server if you' ; re always in a bad mood or you' ; re, you know, if you' ; re not comfortable speaking in public or speaking in front of strangers. So you want to look for that. Essentially, you want them to be an extension of yourself, right? You know, you can' ; t be at every table at all times. But you want them to understand what your culture is, the restaurant culture. And you just want them to, to be as respectful to customers as you are. And, you know, there' ; s a famous Maya Angelou quote and you' ; ve probably heard this and let' ; s see if I can remember it very well, but it' ; s, so it goes something like, you know, ten years from now, people won' ; t remember what you said or what you did, but they' ; ll remember how you made them feel, right? And so that, like, imprinted me, imprinted on me, when I first started at the business because that' ; s how people might not know what, might not remember what they ordered, or might not remember what your Sesame Chicken, what your Sesame Chicken tasted like, but they remember how, how nice you were to them and how and how well taken care of they were. So... |01:09:01| Brody Yeah. That' ; s really. That' ; s, that' ; s nice and true. People remember how you made them feel. So what are the next ten years like for you in your business? |01:09:17| Kang Well, currently we' ; re kind of in limbo in terms of reopening. There' ; s some litigation that we' ; re having to work through. Once we get that done, I' ; ll be able to have a better understanding of where we are in terms of reopening. I got commitments from my back of the house that they' ; re going to come back. I mean, it' ; s been over three years. So I' ; m really grateful that they' ; re, that they want to come back and work. Front of the house, the majority of them have moved on, which I, you know, I don' ; t blame them. They' ; ve all actually, they' ; ve all gone on to bigger and better things, you know, I' ; m extremely proud of them. My assistant- no, she wasn' ; t- I didn' ; t have an assistant manager, she was kind of my lead server and she kind of ran things when I wasn' ; t there- but she is planning on going to, going to law school and some of my other employees, they' ; ve, we' ; ve had a lot of our younger employees, some kids in high school, you know, they' ; ve since graduated high school and they' ; re either in college or working at an office type job or I think one person' ; s in the fire academy going to be a firefighter. And so yeah, they' ; ve all even one which I won' ; t name, even certain ones that I didn' ; t really think were going to do anything in the next five years, they' ; ve, they' ; ve really stepped up and changed their lives, so I' ; m extremely proud of them. |01:11:04| Brody That' ; s great. |01:11:05| Kang Yeah. And that' ; s all I can hope for. So when I do reopen, it' ; ll probably be a completely new brand, front of the house staff, which will be challenging at first. But hopefully, people will understand and so they won' ; t be able to see the other familiar faces that they' ; re used to out front. Except me, but we' ; ll get through it. |01:11:29| Brody That' ; s great. In the remodel, did you change anything about, like, open kitchen or anything like that? |01:11:36| Kang The layout. We- no, it' ; s not an open kitchen. We did change the layout within the kitchen itself. Just kind of where the dishwashing area is. Changed that. I added a seating bar where there used to be a waiting bench, but I' ; ve since added a little bar with, like, four bar stools, so customers would come in and they can, while they' ; re waiting to be sat, they can go and open up their wine and start enjoying. |01:12:12| Brody So you' ; re going to stay BYOB? |01:12:14| Kang Oh, yeah. Yeah, BYOB has really, really helped us. You know, you know, getting the word out, you know, people seek out BYOB. There was a time, actually...So for the longest time, the building in the area was not zoned for alcohol. But back in the mid 2000s, the city of Plano had rezoned that area, and so I was actually up at the TABC office, filling out the application because in my mind I wanted to get a beer and wine license and then I forgot to bring a certain paperwork or something so I couldn' ; t hand it in there. So I brought it back home and then just kind of slept on it and then never went back and never turned in that, the application. And you know, looking back on it, I, that was the right decision, I think because, on any given weekend, I don' ; t know, 80, 90% of our tables bring their own wine in, bring their own alcohol. So it' ; s. Yeah. |01:13:44| Brody Did, do you have much competition? I know you' ; ve been sort of in a limbo for a little while between the fire and everything else. But in the meantime, have other places that you would consider competition sprung up? |01:13:56| Kang Oh, yeah. Yeah, I' ; ve, I mean, I' ; ve seen at least two or three other restaurants that serve Peking Duck. They' ; ve popped up. I' ; ve never, I haven' ; t tried them, so I don' ; t know how they' ; re, they' ; re quality of duck, you know, compared to ours. Compared to ours. So, I can' ; t speak to that, but yeah, there' ; s just there' ; s been a lot of other restaurants and not just ducks, not just restaurants that serve Peking Duck, but just other Chinese restaurants in general. And those are your direct competitors. And then you have indirect competitors that are just restaurants in general. Right? If we' ; re not going to have Chinese tonight, we' ; ll have Mexican. We' ; re not having Mexican, we' ; ll have Indian, you know, that' ; s a direct competitor. Right? Because they' ; re choosing somewhere else over your restaurant. So, yeah, just a lot of new restaurants have popping up. |01:14:51| Brody Do you have, is there a strong community among Asian restaurant owners in Plano or in Dallas? |01:15:06| Kang I' ; m sure there is. I know a few Chinese restaurants and Chinese restaurant owners, but those are the ones that have been in Dallas for as long as we have. And so the new ones, no, I don' ; t really know a bunch of the new ones. Of course, when I was in, when I was running the restaurant, I never had time outside of the restaurant to, to socialize with other restaurant owners much. You know, we were fortunate that we were closed on Sundays, but that was family day for us. That was spending time with the wife and the kid. And so, yeah, I mean, during the week it was just restaurant. |01:15:55| Brody Yeah. It' ; s a lot of work. |01:15:56| Kang It is a lot of work. The restaurant business is extremely time consuming and labor intensive. Yeah. If you do it right, if you enjoy what you' ; re doing, it' ; s, quite rewarding. You know, you get, you get instant feedback. Right? You serve a dish. You can see and tell right away if, if the customer enjoys it or not. You get to meet new people all the time. And like in our case, they, a lot of their customers became friends and family of ours. And, I do miss that. I, I tremendously miss that aspect of, of the business. |01:16:47| Brody So. So would you characterize your restaurant as a " ; mom and pop," ; or do you think about it in a different way? Or what does a " ; mom and pop" ; restaurant entail to you? |01:16:59| Kang It' ; s still a " ; mom and pop." ; You know, to me, it' ; s still a " ; mom and pop." ; You know, it' ; s, we' ; re independently owned. The owner, me, I' ; m there every day, all the time. You know, when and if I do reopen, I will try to hire a manager because to take off a lot of my load, a lot of load off of me, and I' ; ll be able to at least take more than just Sunday off, since the kid is at the age where he' ; s, you know, got a lot of activities going on. So, but yeah, no, absolutely. We' ; re still, we' ; re still a " ; mom and pop." ; I don' ; t ever want to expand. This is not something that I' ; m looking to do. You know, it' ; s, you do lose some quality in an expansion. You do lose some of the personal touch. Yeah. And I' ; m not, you know, if people, people that have expanded and they' ; ve done well and I mean, that' ; s great to figure out the formula, you know, where you' ; re not as involved in the day to day as I am. But yeah, so it' ; s kind of, it' ; s kind of a double edged sword. You know, me being inside the restaurant 70 hours a week, that' ; s obviously been able to keep an eye on the quality of the food coming out of the kitchen and, building up the relationships. But at the same time, I don' ; t want to expand because you do lose that, that part of it. |01:18:48| Brody In a nutshell, what would you, how would you characterize your brand? |01:18:55| Kang That' ; s a good question. It' ; s, you know, I think our brand is a...It' ; s a independently owned restaurant that enjoys serving great food and has a fun time serving great food. That our guests and customers come in and they have a wonderful time, and it' ; s, it' ; s just, it' ; s not...I don' ; t know. It' ; s not like any other Chinese restaurant that I' ; ve been to, you know, it' ; s, it' ; s just people just come in and have a, they end up partying with us. It' ; s, it' ; s just, you know, it' ; s like Cheers. Like the show Cheers, right? You know, like, everyone knows your name. You know, they come in and, hey, we call them by their names, and, it' ; s comfortable. It' ; s, after a long day of work for them, they come in and they, it' ; s like their second home. And so that' ; s, we' ; re a laid back restaurant that provides good food and great hospitality. |01:20:26| Brody You' ; re right. That' ; s so...That is different that people are partying with other tables. |01:20:29| Kang Yeah. |01:20:30| Brody What? Why do you think that happens? |01:20:34| Kang Well, for one thing, because we' ; re able to seat around 80 people inside the restaurant and with the three round tables and then the surrounding booths, the proximity of a table to the next table is a lot closer I think than, than other restaurants. So just naturally, if a large party of 12 is celebrating a birthday and they' ; re, you know, taking shots or whatever the full extent, they' ; ll ask the table next to them, " ; Hey, do you want to take some shots or try some wine?" ; and so they ended up, they end up just sharing their alcohol. And that' ; s where the BYOB aspect really comes into play and that people I think are more willing to share their wine that way. No, that' ; s my, that' ; s my take on it. |01:21:42| Brody Do you think the duck has something to do with it? Sort of the way that that' ; s served and eaten? |01:21:47| Kang Oh, yeah. I mean, everything is family style, right? And especially with the duck. That' ; s not served for a party of one. The duck itself, as one entree, among others, it basically counts as three, three entrees. So, yeah, a party of four ordered one duck, a party of eight will order two. And then, so everything' ; s served family style. We got the big lazy Susans, around the round table and stuff, so people just...Yeah. No, you bring up a good point. Yeah, I didn' ; t think about, remember the lazy Susans. But. yes, yes, absolutely. People...it' ; s, it' ; s very, it' ; s a communal experience. Yeah. |01:22:44| Brody Were you all affected by any of the weather incidents in the last few years, the tornado or the ice storm? |01:22:51| Kang No. Luckily, we dodged those bullets. We that was all after 2019. So. No. Yeah. No, we were we were fortunate to dodge that. And then we dodged COVID as well. |01:23:09| Brody Yeah. That. I mean a silver lining. |01:23:12| Kang Yeah, I can' ; t imagine. And, I can' ; t imagine if I was still in business during COVID and, having to pivot to, all takeout and delivery and, and all that. So it was, hats off to the other restaurant owners that have to deal with that and, you know, had to go through that and lay off their employees and all that. I mean, that' ; s hard. So, I guess the silver lining in that fire that, you know, that' ; s the bright side of the fire. |01:23:48| Brody And the remodel was facilitated. |01:23:50| Kang Yeah. And the remodel and exactly. You know, the remodel happened right before the whole you know, happened towards the start of COVID. But we' ; ve dodged the supply chain issues, too, and the rising cost of the materials and labor. So, yeah, thank God that that was, that we got all that over and done with too, before, before what' ; s going on now. So. |01:24:19| Brody Yeah...A lot of silver linings there. |01:24:22| Kang Yeah. |01:24:23| Brody Well looking back at your time in your parents' ; restaurants and also running your own, what are some lessons or reflections that, that you might have? |01:24:39| Kang You really got to enjoy what you do. You, you really ought to be able to sacrifice a lot of your time and a lot of your family' ; s time if you' ; re married. It' ; s not, you know, the restaurant business isn' ; t one of those that you just open from day one and you hire someone and you' ; re an absentee owner because, you know, without going into any stories what those tend to be, tend to fail faster, quicker. You know, it' ; s not as glamorous as it seems. You know, you' ; ve got obviously you' ; ve got all these cooking shows and restaurant shows and they' ; ve, those have become increasingly popular in the last 10 to 15 years. And, obviously what you see on TV is a lot different than what happens day to day. Yeah, you just, you' ; re just gonna have to sacrifice. It' ; s not, it' ; s not normal hours. You know, when people are eating, you' ; re working. When people are asleep, you' ; re just getting off of work. But, at the end of the day, I wouldn' ; t, I wouldn' ; t trade it for anything else, you know, you got to be, you got to have that passion for it. And when you don' ; t is when you got to get out of the business and do something else. |01:26:11| Brody That' ; s great. Thank you for that. Is there anything that I did not ask you today that you wanted to add to this interview? |01:26:28| Kang No, I think I think what I touched on just a minute ago, I think that' ; s probably the most important thing. I mean, I see these up and coming restaurant owners, and they' ; re, they have the passion and have they drive, and that' ; s great. You know, there are obviously using a lot of social media to their benefit, which is great. I mean, that' ; s what it' ; s for. But I just hope they don' ; t get burnt out too soon. Right? And they know how to kind of sit back and take a breather every once in a while, because burnout in this industry is extremely common. And it' ; s...Well, as with any job but the restaurant industry in particular, it' ; s not just physically demanding, but it' ; s mentally demanding. Right? You know, physically you' ; re on your feet the whole day, right? You sit down and eat, try to scarf down your food and five, ten minutes, then you' ; re back on your feet, you know, doing your job. You know, mentally you' ; ve got to deal with a number of not only inside factors, but outside factors, right? And you got to deal with the licensing part of it. You got to deal with the city part of it, the health department part of it. You know, doing all your payroll, unless you have an accountant. But, it' ; s like running any small business, right? You' ; ve got to wear many hats, you' ; ve got to be a jack of all trades. So I' ; ve actually learned quite a bit of handiwork. A lot of plumbing, some electrical, just being things will go out on a Friday night. Your AC will go up and you' ; ve got a house full of, full of guests. And what are you going to do? So it is a lot of thinking on your feet. It is tremendous. It is a lot of thinking on your feet. It is a lot of putting out fires instantaneously. A lot of deadlines that pop up that need to be solved in the next 5 minutes. So, it does teach you quite a bit of problem solving. |01:28:58| Brody Yeah, that' ; s really interesting. People don' ; t think about all the different pieces of it. |01:29:03| Kang Yeah. You know, 2014 I think was when we had that really hot summer. You have like over like 70 days of 100 degrees. And so, kitchen coolant was going out. Refrigeration. I had to replace our AC, had to replace the compressor on our walk in cooler, had to get a new freezer...It was that was a costly summer, but I wasn' ; t the only one dealing with that. There were other restaurants that were dealing with that. There were homeowners that had to replace their ACs too. So that was just that was a brutal, that was a brutal summer. But, yeah. At least I dodged the snowmageddon, the freezeageddon two years ago. So. |01:29:48| Brody That' ; s lucky. |01:29:48| Kang Yeah. But yeah, you just got, just got to have a passion for it. |01:29:57| Brody Well, thank you so much. This has been so interesting, and I' ; m really happy to learn about your family' ; s story and hear about your thoughts about what' ; s been going on the last few years in your restaurant. |01:30:09| Kang Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. Happy to be here. |01:30:12| Brody Thank you so much. |01:30:12| Kang You' ; re welcome. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. audio Interviews may be reproduced with permission from the Baylor University Institute for Oral History. 0
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Interview with Jack Kang, May 18, 2022
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2021oh002_di_013
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Asian Americans
Texas--History
Cooking, American
Cooking, Chinese
Cooking, Japanese
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2022-05-18
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audio